Not sure what I think of Red Faction yet. Technology seems pretty cool -- I like blowing holes in walls and such -- but one very cool thing has surfaced. When you throw remote controlled explosives towards the baddies, they shoot at it and try to destroy it before you detonate. Or else they run.

It's almost embarrassing to point this out as a "plus" but ... I haven't seen much of that sort of thing before.

I did get a chuckle the first time I heard one of the guards yell "I'm on your side!" and "Don't shoot -- I'm unarmed!"

I finished Red Faction last night. It's good-- Miner 2049er redux.

The geomod stuff is surprisingly underutilized within the game. It is indescribably cool to see giant chunks blasted out of the scenery after a particularly gnarly firefight.

Vehicles. These are badass, and implemented beautifully. If you want to understand why I am so excited about Halo, try tooling around in the APCs or Jeeps in this game. Vehicles is the great unexplored frontier of FPS gaming. Even this small taste of it is tantalizing.

The AI is above average, in that the enemies strafe a lot, retreat, and try to put pieces of the scenery between you and them (in addition to the stuff John mentioned). Sadly, as decent as this is, it's still not as good as 1998's Half-Life grunt AI.

Multiplayer kinda sucks. The default run speeds are too fast, and it ends up being just another frenzied Quake-style deathmatch. Yawn. I have tremendous respect for what Nerve did with the Return to Wolf multiplayer test, eg, actually try more complex modes of gameplay, instead of defaulting to the least common denominator. Or that old chestnut, "capture the flag". Note to developers: throwing in CTF doesn't magically improve your stupid multiplayer mechanics.

On the whole, though, Red Faction feels rather uninspired. It's a good, solid game -- but they badly need to "kick it up a notch". Maybe it's the PS2 ancestry of the game? That said, I did enjoy it, and I do recommend it to fans of the genre. I liked it a lot more than Max Payne.

Also-- outstanding soundtrack in Red Faction. It's obviously the same guy who did Freespace 2's soundtrack, which I loved.

Does anyone else remember 1998's Redline? That's one of the few attempts to integrate vehicles into a FPS game. It was intriguing. A noble effort, but the results were mixed.

You should try Tribes 2. The vehicles are well done and once understood add amazing depth to the game. Also the slightly more complex gameplay may put off some people but it adds greatly to their version of CTF.

Chet

I wasn't impressed with the vehicles in Tribes 2 at all. First of all, the physics sucked. And unless they can deliver Carmageddon-level physics-- or at least Interstate '76 level-- I'm not really interested.

Also, it seems difficult to write netcode good enough to account for two or more people working cooperatively to manipulate something. Eg, the little latency errors are magnified when people are doing things together instead of independently.. for example, if I'm firing a turret and my latency is 100ms, and the guy driving has a latency of 150ms.. we're going to be out of sync, and what we do affects each other.

Whatever. Enough conjecture. Tribes 2 has a lot of problems, and I don't consider their vehicle implementation one of the bright spots.

>in Red Faction. It's obviously the same guy who did Freespace 2's soundtrack

Really? Can you (or anyone) confirm that? It may be ridiculous, but that's almost reason enough for me to pick up Red Faction, since I also loved the FS2 soundtrack.

Stefan

Hmm, let me just throw a dissenting opinion about the Red Faction soundtrack. Much of it sounded to me like bad Depeche Mode to me, just synth blathering. There were some orchestral pieces, and a particularly nice bit at the end, but if you look in the credits they appear to be from some canned music CD (not that there's anything wrong with that).

So is this game better than NOLF single player? I may get this game since its on sale at Best Buy, but it sounds like a generic fps game. Though Volition sure knows how to make a game.. they generally are high quality and have a good story and atmosphere. Summoner, Descent and Freespace were all nice games. So I'm sure Red Faction should be worth it, right?

BTW, with game music i actually liked the discoey Deus Ex soundtrack... i liked it, even if it did sound like gothy. Actually the music for most of Ion Storms games were real good! I liked them in Daikatana and Anachronox. Even if they do sound like New Orderish...

etc

Well, I loved the Freespace 2 soundtrack. And I would swear on my mother's grave that the same guy did Red Faction, because it reminded me of that constantly. I had it cranked throughout!

Hey cool, I'm the only guy on the Q23 boards who knows how to use Google! I'll try to use my powers for good, and not evil, gentlemen!

--

Q: Who's doing the music in Red Faction?
A: -Dan Wentz is the sound/music guy on Red Faction.

---
Download the music:

http://redfaction.volitionwatch.com/downloads/
---
Interview with Dan Wentz:

http://volitionwatch.com/interviews/dw_interview.php

Q: You've worked on countless music tracks for various Volition games. Which one of the tracks is your favorite and why?

A; Ok, that's a tough one� like asking which child is my favorite. Without a doubt, the music in Freespace 2 is especially close to my heart, since it was composed during the most challenging part of my life. At that time my personal life was in major transition, and motivation was sometimes hard to come by. But I prevailed. In fact, I believe I became a better person and musician for the experience.

A lot of my soul was poured into those tracks and I love going back and listening to it. If I had to pick one, it'd probably be "Revelation" or the closing cutscene score. I love the dynamics employed in both. Ask me the same question in a year, and it will probably include some of the RF tunes. But it's too soon to pick one from that lot. The recent stuff really hasn't sunk in with me yet. Also, there are just too many to choose from!
---

Hey Steve, I think Sleater-Kinney is going to do the soundtrack for Volition's next game! I bet you'll be backstage, hanging out with the band, as per usual..

"So is this game better than NOLF single player?"

I did not care for NOLF all that much. I'm still a little perplexed by all the extreme critical praise the game garnered. Good, yes. Better than Half-Life? Ermmmm.. step away from the crack pipe, people.

"I may get this game since its on sale at Best Buy, but it sounds like a generic fps game. Though Volition sure knows how to make a game.. they generally are high quality and have a good story and atmosphere. Summoner, Descent and Freespace were all nice games. So I'm sure Red Faction should be worth it, right?"

It lacks.. that ineffable something that truly great games have. But it's a fine, competent game if you are a fan of the genre. And it is innovative enough to satisfy my insatiable need for the Next Big Thing.

So anyway, if you're a fan of the genre, I'd pick it up if you can get it for a reasonable price.

One thing i loved about NOLF was the feeling of the weapons. The weapon handling in NOLF is the best in all the fps games.... no not the mechanical dog and the suitcase rocet. but the AK-47 in NOLF... the best! I've actually fired an AK-47, and it sounds a feels close to NOLF. The graphics in NOLF, if you have the right PC are imo, the best looking, they have color.. which lacks in alot of fps games. ayway... the lithtech engine is kind of a hog... at least in the AVP2 demo and in NOLF.

I'll probably pick it up tommorrow... RF that is. I have to support developers that are in the same state as me... illinoize. I bought Septerra Core and Myth becuase of that... well not really. just blabbering..

etc

NOLF was a more enjoyable single player game, for me, than Half-Life, though if I could leave off the Xen parts of HL it'd be much much closer. There was no roll-off in NOLF like there was in HL--when you get to Xen, the game started sucking IMO.

>>So is this game better than NOLF single player?

I don't think it's even in the same ballpark.

And I'll go on the record saying I think NOLF has a better single-player game than Half-Life. While it lacks the sense of place, it makes up for it with terrific style and dialogue and all... and it's just more fun.

I'm actually re-playing Half-Life right now.

NOLF just has so much more personality than Half-Life. And personality goes a long way.

Of course, I can't really argue with wumpus' statement that NOLF is missing that "ineffable something" until he clues us all in as to what that "something" is. Unfortunately, it's ineffable...

-Tom

>>NOLF just has so much more personality than Half-Life. And personality goes a long way.

Yup, and its setting (60s spy thing) allows it to have what would normally be a jarring lack of continuity between levels/missions. But in the context of a lame spy story, it makes perfect sense.

And that game nailed every freakin' detail... and the overheard dialogues were consistently funny, and it just oozes style. And it's self-referential, but not overly so (such as the note that explains why the German club is virtually empty despite the line outside)...

A great, great, game, one of my all-time favorites. Who'd a thunk it?

But I admire how Half-Life doesn't try to inject anything that doesn't fit into its game world, things which would like have given it more personality (a wacky sidekick, running commentary, etc.). It's so internally consistent, though I still wish Xen never existed...

>>Of course, I can't really argue with wumpus' statement that NOLF is missing that "ineffable something" until he clues us all in as to what that "something" is. Unfortunately, it's ineffable...

Actually, I believe he was saying Red Faction lacks that "something," but that doesn't make it any less ineffable.

You know, we could save a lot of space if we just used more criticisms like, "It lacks that ineffable something." That would allow you to skip any specifics. We could use more screenshots! Hmm, what an idea!

Should I do my 'Half-Life is one of the crappiest shooters ever made shtick again'? Huh? Huh?

"And that game nailed every freakin' detail..."

One of my favorite details was in the Morocco level, where you must get through the hotel and avoid civilian casualties. When you start the level, you are near the monkey salesman. If you kill the monkey, the level ends in failure, and it puts up a screen that reads, "Excessive Simian Casualties!"

More games need monkey content. They're one of the few things guarenteed to be fun.

"Would you like to buy a monkey? It's a very nice monkey."

Jason Cross says this at least five times a day. It'd be annoying if he didn't say it with such a cute accent.

I remember that in NOLF, but everytime I hear someone reference it I think of Letterman in Cabin Boy (the only good scene in Cabin Boy, I might add).

-Andrew

"And I'll go on the record saying I think NOLF has a better single-player game than Half-Life."

And I'll go on record saying that you're wrong. I recently re-played all three half-life games in reverse order. Blue Shift, Opposing Force, Half-Life. In five days no less! I'd like to also go on record saying that Edgar Winter has more Rock in his little finger than Sleater-Kinney have between the three of them.

But hey, that's just me. I'm an angst ridden white guy.

http://4.60.122.165/audio/Ben%20Folds%20-%20Rockin%20the%20Suburbs.mp3

"While it lacks the sense of place, it makes up for it with terrific style and dialogue and all... and it's just more fun."

The reviewer I gave NOLF to couldn't even finish the game. For that matter, I myself almost didn't finish the game.. and FPS games are my favorite genre. I had to force myself to come back to it because I kept reading review after review telling me how great it was.

NOLF certainly isn't chopped liver. But it's not God's Gift to FPS gamers, either. I want to reinstall it before going over the reasons I feel that way, but allow me to briefly summarize for now with some points that mtkafka brought up-- poodle decoys and suitcase rocket launchers. Snowmobiles and motorcycles, too, while I'm at it.

"Actually, I believe he was saying Red Faction lacks that "something," but that doesn't make it any less ineffable."

Here's the effing reason: nothing in Red Faction would make Keanu Reeves say "whoa". And that's a problem. Without any "whoa" moments, you don't have a truly great game. It's fun, it's worth a purchase for fans of the genre, but it doesn't make me want to run up and physically shake Tom Chick until he is forced to admit that it's the greatest FPS game ever, like some games do.

Not that I would ever do that, of course.

He said he *thought* NOLF had better single-play. He can't be wrong when saying that. He can think whatever he wants.

As for my opinion. NOLF single play was great. I don't know about better than Half-Life but definitely hipper with more style and laughs. It depends on what you want. Both games were great single player games.

Every statement not preceded by "I think" is somehow a unilateral declaration of fact?

I think we all know better than that.

>>And I'll go on record saying that you're wrong.

Yeah, you're right. I'm wrong. Damn, you've humbled me with your debate skills.

>>The reviewer I gave NOLF to couldn't even finish the game. For that matter, I myself almost didn't finish the game.. and FPS games are my favorite genre. I had to force myself to come back to it because I kept reading review after review telling me how great it was.

Wow, true life testimonial! Two whole people! Wow, you've convinced me!

>Without any "whoa" moments, you don't have a truly great game.

Half-Life provided me with plenty of "whoa" moments (more than plenty, actually; there were a lot of such moments), while NOLF didn't provide a single one. NOLF was a solid and competent shooter that did some cool things.

I know that over the past few months or so it's become fashionable to kick Half-Life and the game is suffering from a backlash, but in my mind it's still one of the best FPS ever. NOLF was cool, but it's not even in the same company.

My friends and I (this would be four of us, total) all think that NOLF is among -- okay, three of us think that it is hands-down -- the best FPSs ever. One of my friends has played several FPSs moderately, but absolutely fell in love with NOLF in multiplayer, and we all love it in single-player.

It's a great game, though, I think. So, you can add four more to the "NOLF rocks" column.

We've had more fun with that game multiplayer than any game since Warcraft II -- which we still play, by the way.

And we all love it singleplayer, as well.

I dunno man...being blown out of the plane in NOLF...that was a "whoa" moment for me.

--Dave

>>Half-Life provided me with plenty of "whoa" moments (more than plenty, actually; there were a lot of such moments), while NOLF didn't provide a single one.

I'd agree with that, but I think NOLF was more consistent. There were a lot of dull stretches in Half-Life, lots of empty corridors. And as Tom said, the personality of NOLF is everywhere, which makes it seem that much better.

And if Half-Life didn't end with Xen... I didn't mind the level as a gameplay contrivance, but man did it blow the game's internal consistency.

I'm replaying Half-Life right now, and haven't done that since I played it for our review (I gave it 5/5 which isn't exactly saying it wasn't really good or something). I was a skeptic going in; I thought they were all talk. When we got the beta of the "Day One" OEM version (or whatever it was called) I was like, "Okay, whatever, I'll try it."

I came out saying, "Um, this is the best FPS since System Shock."

I'd argue that System Shock and its sequel are superior than Half-Life, but I know I had more fun playing NOLF than I did with either of those games... a lot of it has to do with the lighter tone, but still... it did something right for me.

Of course nothing matches the (literal) elevator muzak in System Shock... now that was brilliant.

I'd put SS2 over NOLF and Half Life ... though they are different types of games imo, as Rogue Spear/SWAT/DF and its kind are as well.

I never considered NOLF being better than Half Life, though having deleted the long lasting Half Life from my hard drive a few weeks ago (I never play much counterstrike or other mods anymore)... and keeping NOLF might indicate that NOLF is the better game to me. Though id compare NOLF and Half Life equal in solo gameplay, well maybe now i give NOLF the edge because the levels are so much more colorful and attractive. BTW, am i the only one who DID like the HL Xen levels? I love that spider sack monster giant thingy! And i thought the jumping puzzles werent so bad...

Also the levels in NOLF are all great... the only one i didnt really like was the sneaking one where you have to follow the old lady thru that swiss-like town... other than that, all the levels in NOLF were awesome! i still love the train and the levels after it... riding the motorcycle was cool! and lets not forget the snowmobile levels!

so sad that NOLF didnt do as well as it should have... its really surprising actually. why did it sell so poorly? they should be making a NOLF sequel instead of an AVP2.

etc

>>so sad that NOLF didnt do as well as it should have... its really surprising actually. why did it sell so poorly? they should be making a NOLF sequel instead of an AVP2.

Well, Fox didn't really know what it was doing when it came to selling videogames, so that was part of it.

And they are making a NOLF sequel. The folks making AvP2 are a different team at Monolith.

>Half-Life provided me with plenty of "whoa" moments (more than plenty, actually; there were a lot of such moments), while NOLF didn't provide a single one.

That's exactly the way I feel about the two games. Half-life had tremendous style. I also really liked the enemies in the game. The enemy designs were easily the best the genre's ever seen -- enemies were full of personality. NOLF was a great game, but Half-life was really special.

Stefan

The better of SS2, HL, NOLF? That's like asking me to pick my favorite child. They are all great, and each has its own strong points. NOLF for humor, style, and weapon feel. HL for the best monster tactics and boss monster encounters. SS2 for tension and immersion.

Half-Life's HUMAN enemiew had style, I'll grant you that. The aliens were, IMO, just your run of the mill bug-eyed monsters. I loved HL until Xen, as I've said a zillion times :-).

NOLF, on the other hand, is an example of style played out throughout the entire game. IMO, of course.

No way to resolve something like this--and no real need to. NOLF came out some time after HL. This year or next there will be other games that come out and probably provide another icon to rally around.

I guess it's progress ;-)

>. The aliens were, IMO, just your run of the mill bug-eyed monsters.

There's only a few games that I thought did non-human enemies well: Half-life and Myth. Maybe X-com. And DOOM, I guess. The enemies in both Half-life and Myth have such personality, from little "character development" details like the way they interact with each other and the environment. Any (every) game can create a bunch of enemies/units with varying abilities, but too many games just have make opponents vary by appearance and offensive/defensive capabilities. All the games I mentioned, found other ways to make the enemies memorable as well.

There's a world of difference between the aliens in Half-life and the "stock aliens" thrown into Opposing Forces. Much more attention to detail seems to have been paid to the original creature designs.

Both Half-life and NOLF are great games, and NOLF has the advantage of coming out of nowhere, with no advance hype, but the disadvantage of coming out after Half-life. I can completely understand someone preferring either. If only every game was as good.

Stefan

I agree with you Desslock. H-L's aliens have the distinction of looking, feeling, and behaving, well, alien. Strange noises. Strange and at first totally unexpected attacks. Weird looking. And they even seemed to follow some sort of ecosystem (they looked like they came from the same world). I agree that Xen was a misstep, but the rest of the game was too good, imo, to fault it harshly for that.

Also, concerning HL, I've yet to encounter a more intense shooter enemy than those black clad female assassins.

-Andrew

Jesus, what's with the Xen bashing? I *liked* Xen. I *liked* the fact that the game went somewhere unexpected. I applaud Valve for the abrupt change in tone. It's a narrative kick in the pants that thankfully breaks the rules.

If only more games were so bold. In your typical game world, the tone is set early and it doesn't change. Hallways. Office buildings. Sewers. City streets. For Christ's sake, is *that* where you people want to go today?

I won't go so far as to defend jumping puzzles, but otherwise, put me in that little column of Xen fans.

-Tom

Jumping puzzles. That, and only that (well, the brain boss too) is why I hate Xen. Don't care about the "abrupt change in tone." Can take or leave the office buildings (I tend to prefer real-world environments, over weird alien landscapes, but I'm not fanatical about it).


But the jumping puzzles nearly killed the game for me.

I liked the IDEA of Xen, and the visual change of pace. I just don't care much for boss battles and jumping puzzles.

>>I *liked* the fact that the game went somewhere unexpected. I applaud Valve for the abrupt change in tone. It's a narrative kick in the pants that thankfully breaks the rules.

What rules? That you visit the alien planet? Dude, that's a cliche, that's following the rules for sci-fi, not breaking them.

Breaking the rules would be having an alien story that doesn't eventually involve you taking it to 'em on their home planet.

I didn't dislike playing Xen; jumping puzzles don't really bug me. But it was anti-climactic to me to take you to another place after battling through this amazing consistent environment. I was waiting for it to build to something exciting in the Black Mesa place. Going alien was a cop out, the easy and obvious way out.

But I liked the ending, with the g-man. I liked the ambiguity.

Yeah, the ending itself was, in my opinion, great. But I agree with Chick to an extent re: the bravery of those levels but after fighting tough marines and extremely challenging black ops chicks, Xen was a let down. Maybe if there had been something really exciting on Xen itself I'd feel differently.

What I liked most about Xen actually was that when I first got there I had no idea what to expect. That suspense was delicious, the world was, again, admirably and completely fucking alien, but sadly that feeling evaporated a bit too fast.

I will chime in to compliment Valve on the sequence that gets you to Xen. That was well set up yet also interactive and tense.

-Andrew

"What rules? That you visit the alien planet? Dude, that's a cliche, that's following the rules for sci-fi, not breaking them."

I wasn't being literal about actually breaking rules. I was waxing, well, prosaic.

I think Bub put it well: "What I liked most about Xen actually was that when I first got there I had no idea what to expect. That suspense was delicious, the world was, again, admirably and completely fucking alien"

It was different. It was unexpected. It broke the paradigm the rest of the game had established -- fighting marines in a missile base and desert canyons with occasional weird beasties teleporting in.

By the time I got there, I'd forgotten about the little glimpses of Xen during the lab accident (speaking of cliches...). But it adhered to Chekov's rule* that if you bring a gun on stage in the first act, you damn well better fire it in the second act.

I think we forget what it was like to go to Xen before we all knew it was going to happen. It's like not being surprised that Darth is Luke's father anymore. Yawn. Big deal. He's Luke's dad. But remember the shock of the first time you heard that (nevermind that you were probably ten years old).

You say it's cliched, Steve, but I can't think of any other games that had that sort of tonal shift. Can you guys?

-Tom

* I may be crediting this incorectly, but I don't want to break the flow of trying to sound literary by confessing that I don't really know who said this thing about the gun in the first act.

The only game I can think of that had that tonal shift (as Tom calls it) was Clive Barker's Undying. The dimensional stuff, I thought, was effective, in that way.

But I'm not holding it up to Half-Life as a game, per se.

-Andrew

"Damn, you've humbled me with your debate skill."

No, Edgar Winter humbled you with his guitar skills. But whatever.

"I dunno man...being blown out of the plane in NOLF...that was a "whoa" moment for me."

It was more of a "gee, another gimmick" moment for me. A puzzle mission! That fits right in with the snowmobile, motorcycle, and half of the completely useless weapons and gadgets.

Don't get me wrong-- NOLF is a fine FPS game. But it's not in the same league as Half-Life, which executed everything it did brilliantly. NOLF was more of a shotgun approach to design. Some of it worked (for me: enemy AI, and the music), and a lot of it didn't. To their credit, they pulled it off. The game was a critical, if not a commercial success. That's consistent with my experience. I wouldn't recommend it unless you're a fan of the genre.. and that means relatively low sales figures for a non-breakout title with not much promotion and no big names behind it.

"I don't want to break the flow of trying to sound literary"

Ooh. Too late. Moving on..

"Xen sucks."

There seems to be this huge misconception about how large a part of the game Xen really is. The black mesa part of Half-Life is quite lengthy. Out of 17 named sections, the last 4 are Xen. That means it's under 25% of the game. More like 20% if you consider the rather brief boss encounters aren't really "levels".

"I'd argue that System Shock and its sequel are superior than Half-Life, but I know I had more fun playing NOLF than I did with either of those games... a lot of it has to do with the lighter tone, but still... it did something right for me."

Let's say it all together, shall we? Thief: The Dark Project. That's the best FPS since Half-Life in my book. You'll never realize how shitty and inconsistent NOLF's "stealth" rules are until you play that game. Half the time in NOLF my cover would get blown due to some incomprehensible quirk in the enemy sight algorithms. At that point I just said "ah, fuck it" and ran around shooting everyone using one of the four guns that are actually useful in the game. With the alarms going off for an entire level, this begins to grate on your nerves. Hey, I love stealth games. Just give me rules that make sense, like Thief did.

But this complaint is really just echoing what I said above: NOLF didn't know what it wanted to be. Is it a stealth game? Is it a campy 60's spy spoof? Is it a semi-realistic shooter? Does sound give away your position? Is the robotic poodle useful for anything? Can I see Cate Archer's panties in the mirror? What's the point of the Virtua Cop mission? Hey, let's try this cool thing I just thought of! It's the Rube Goldberg school of game design!

Playing Half-Life again recently only reinforced what a classic it really is. So many parts of the game are outstanding even today-- the sound (one of THE first games to really use 3D sound), the AI, the levels, the story, the enemies, the weapons, the multiplayer.. it's as close to the War and Peace of gaming as I've ever been.

So prefer NOLF all you want. But it ain't better than Half-Life, not by a long shot.

"I just don't care much for boss battles"

You and me both, brother. We badly need to come up with something better-- any suggestions? Maybe the Serious Sam approach of "now try TWO BAZILLION ENEMIES AT ONCE!"

"But I'm not holding it up to Half-Life as a game, per se."

Undying was a better game than NOLF as far as I'm concerned.

I agree with Jeff's statement below. If anything, simply having the ability to lean would have added a lot to NOLF. I missed it and still do. Also, Thief's guard conversations were often just as funny as NOLF's were. In NOLF I never felt I really had the option to be stealthy because I lacked some key tools and because I knew the enemy was never overwhelming enough to just run out and shoot 'em.


"Thief: The Dark Project. Half the time in NOLF my cover would get blown due to some incomprehensible quirk in the enemy sight algorithms. At that point I just said "ah, fuck it" and ran around shooting everyone using one of the four guns that are actually useful in the game. With the alarms going off for an entire level, this begins to grate on your nerves. Hey, I love stealth games. Just give me rules that make sense, like Thief did."

I've replayed the Half-Life intro maybe 10 times since its release and still don't tire of it. It's simply incredible. And every time thinking I'll just watch till the tram stops, I get drawn in to playing through past the experiment and the initial alien encounters.

Come on, anyone knocking HL or saying NOLF is better, go reload Half-Life, install the high-definition pack if you have it, and just LOOK around you as you ride the tram to work.

Thinking about the NOLF comparison, look at how cutscene-heavy that game is. I suppose it suits the general tone, but HL is just so claustrophobic in how you never break away from your viewpoint, every level transitions instantly, you're never REALLY sure what's going on.

If you can find someone who knows the rudiments of FPS controls and hasn't played the game (good luck), sit them down, turn off the lights, put headphones on them, and it's guaranteed they won't take their eyes off the screen until at least 2 hours later. And when they get up, they WILL be uneasy and shaky.

The only other action game with as immersive a start and believable a game world I can think of is Voyager Elite Force, but that simply REQUIRES Trek interest and some admittedly embarrassing attraction towards the campy shows.

>>You say it's cliched, Steve, but I can't think of any other games that had that sort of tonal shift. Can you guys?

Most games have huge tonal shifts because they have no aesthetic consistency. Hell, every level of Alice represents a huge tonal shift, from "edgy" to "kind of edgy" to "Tim Burton's Edgy" to "lava world." Quake has huge tonal shifts, from brown to, er, "lava world."

>>Let's say it all together, shall we? Thief: The Dark Project. That's the best FPS since Half-Life in my book.

For some unknown reason, I've never been able to warm to either Thief game.

>>You'll never realize how shitty and inconsistent NOLF's "stealth" rules are until you play that game.

Well, let's also consider it's not a "stealth" game, so comparing it to Thief is like comparing its action to Serious Sam.

The "stealth" parts of Red Faction... now that's extra goofy.

>>NOLF didn't know what it wanted to be. Is it a stealth game? Is it a campy 60's spy spoof? Is it a semi-realistic shooter? Does sound give away your position? Is the robotic poodle useful for anything? Can I see Cate Archer's panties in the mirror? What's the point of the Virtua Cop mission? Hey, let's try this cool thing I just thought of! It's the Rube Goldberg school of game design!

Yup, and it shouldn't work, but I think it does. It does try too many things, but I found that most, because they were all designed around this consistent cheesy 60s aesthetic. It still managed to fit into the bigger game, which was to make you feel like you were trapped in a 60s spy movie.

>>it's as close to the War and Peace of gaming as I've ever been.

It'll never be Civilization or SimCity for me, which are literally my War and Peace (respectively) of gaming...

>>So prefer NOLF all you want. But it ain't better than Half-Life, not by a long shot.

Yeah, whatever, troll boy. Unless you can you divulge the special "game rating" metric you've figured out that proves, without a doubt, that one game is better than another, you're just your usual little troll self, trying to state everything as a statement of absolute fact instead of just random blatherings.

Hey, I like NOLF. I think it's better than Half-Life, but that doesn't make it better than Half-Life to anyone but me. Duh.

>>You and me both, brother. We badly need to come up with something better-- any suggestions?

Stronger narratives wouldn't need that sort of resolution, but I think gamers conditioned with action movies expect some big ending battle against the bad guy. To give them anything else (or to not do it, as the case may be) would be criticized as anti-climatic.

>It still managed to fit into the bigger game, which was to make you feel like you were trapped in a 60s spy movie.

I guess I never really felt that way about NOLF. There were parts of the game that were quite funny but there were just as many parts that were completely over-written and seemed like someone was waving a flag and yelling, "Look at me, funny 60's stuff going on over here!" I know it's supposed to be "over-the-top" but in the wrong hands over-the-top becomes tiresome and unfunny, which is how I would describe large sections of NOLF.

Of course, that's one of my biggest complaints with most games--the crappy writing. Even the games that are lauded with having good stories (and I'm just talking FPS's here) are usually pretty poorly written when compared to other forms of entertainment.

In terms of favorite FPS, for me it's System Shock 2.

Best expeience i had in Half Life is when i had a squad of my soldiers take a village in Everon by taking the right flank while i... oops wrong game.

Actaully, one part of Half Life that was REAL good, was the conspiracy feel, and wanting to get out of Black Mesa. I remember meeting up with the soldiers and thinking, "aww yeah!" and then i hear them say "GET FREEMAN!" i shit my pants the first time i saw them firing at me... the part of the game that gave a sense that you ARE alone. Though SS2 beats Half Life hands down in terms of atmosphere of being alone AND its dreadfulness... theres a ton of great Half Life moments, original and scripted just right. I remember the first time HEARING those sonic dogs... thinking wtf is that? or seeing that giant plant thing... or the osprey unloading troops, the tanks... good stuff!

though i think Half Life is so great in that it takes the Doom convention story of being stuck in a situation and trying to get out, ie doom a lunar hell whereas half life is a enemy infested research facility. I think thats the best "cliche" of the fps... trying to escape if done right. I really wanted to make it to the surface of black mesa, and then to find the spec ops wanting to kill me, awesome tension.

If ever there was movie to be made from a video game, Half Life should be it!

etc

The Looking Glass developed FPS games (and Irrational) are the pinnacle of shooters for me. Specifically both Shock games and Terra Nova. Terra Nova is brilliant and completely overlooked and snubbed by most. That was squad based action long before Tribes re-invented it online. The first time I saw Tribes, I wondered how they got away with copying Terra Nova's sci-fi feel so closely.

Thief is another favorite, but it definitely has a different tone than most FPS games. I can see where someone just doesn't "get it".

--Dave

Steve said:
"Well, let's also consider (NOLF) is not a "stealth" game, so comparing it to Thief is like comparing its action to Serious Sam."

If they didn't want the player sneaking around, why did NOLF have those nifty stealth gadgets (hairpin... corpse remover)? The fact that these things really don't work speaks volumes about the scatterbrained design approach in NOLF. I remember trying so hard to use the poison hairpin to knock out the guards. No matter how careful I was, as soon as I gave him a swipe, he'd turn around and start shooting (thereby alerting every other enemy in the level).

The reason Thief works and NOLF doesn't is that the rules of stealth were consistent and easy to understand. A stealth mission in NOLF always ends up with a standard shootout a la quake.

NOLF wasn't a pure stealth game, which is what I think Steve meant with his "so comparing it to Thief is like comparing its action to Serious Sam" line of reasoning.

The problem, as Greg puts it above, is that NOLF almost completely fails when it tries to be a stealth game. And it does try. Since Thief and Rainbow Six came out in 1997 Monolith should have known what to do here, to make those missions sing. The result was that I never felt I was "doing it right" when those stealth missions came up. Bang-bang yes, kiss-kiss? No.

NOLF... great game. Classic game? No. IMO

-Andrew

>>If they didn't want the player sneaking around, why did NOLF have those nifty stealth gadgets (hairpin... corpse remover)? The fact that these things really don't work speaks volumes about the scatterbrained design approach in NOLF.

It actually speaks volumes about what they were able to achieve in an 18 month design cycle. Lots of stuff got dropped, which left some weapons fairly useless.

But I still contend the fact that you can still beat a level without using stealth makes the complaints about it somewhat less important. You couldn't possibly "win" Thief without stealth; it's entirely gameplay was based around sneaking. In NOLF, excepting the one mission in the office (which I found a lot of fun and not problematic), you could just choose to run around, guns ablaze.

mtkafka:
"If ever there was movie to be made from a video game, Half Life should be it!"

Deus Ex all the way, baby. :)

I doubt even the action movie audience would swallow the hero re-equiping himself from crates there Bill.

-Andrew

Hmm, we apparently played NOLF in different ways. I learned early on that noise was the key, so I spent most of the game crouching & crawling about. Silenced weapons, the coin to lure guards, camera repeaters, bunny slippers, karate chops to the back of the head - those were my main tools. Only rarely did I break out the AK47 and blast my way through (though the gondola ride stands out as a glorious example of doing that). I also liked bitch-slapping the civilians to keep them from triggering alarms.

I realized recently that a big part of why I disliked the Thief games was that you had no choice but sneaking. You couldn't realistically defend yourself if the shit hit the fan, or even take out more than a single guard from ambush. For me, sneaking into a good tactical position and springing an ambush is fun. Sneaking into a good sneaking position is not fun.

Super, the things you mention are also why I liked Deux Ex. You could do the same things in that game. Sneak up on a guard but then kill him if you didn't feel like sneaking around him. I prefer having a choice. The Thiefs were definitely good games but I couldn't stick with them for more than a few levels.

"I realized recently that a big part of why I disliked the Thief games was that you had no choice but sneaking. You couldn't realistically defend yourself if the shit hit the fan, or even take out more than a single guard from ambush."

Really? I enjoyed clearing many levels by conking *all* the guards or hitting them with an arrow. Case the joint, clear them out and then I'd take on the objectives. Also I got really good with the sword timing which made any combat that did occur less deadly... but still awful if I made a mistake.

Heh, it sounds like I played Thief the way you played NOLF... only I could lean around corners and had a handy gem that clued me in if I was in view. Rather than bunny slippers, I mean. NOLF would've risen considerably in my estimation if you could only lean around corners. Sigh.

;)
-Andrew

In the Thief games though unless you played on the lowest difficulty you usually couldn't kill anyone. Which is cool, but made things damn tough.

No Robert, that's only on HARD. On Medium you could (often) still kill the guards, for the bulk of the missions I mean. And if you couldn't kill them, sometimes you could still conk 'em. But yes, the point was to avoid detection completely.

-Andrew

'NOLF would've risen considerably in my estimation if you could only lean around corners. Sigh.'

Is there an excuse for making a game ever again where you can't lean around corners? I find myself trying to do it in everything.

>>Is there an excuse for making a game ever again where you can't lean around corners? I find myself trying to do it in everything.

Sure there's an excuse, and it's that the game already has too many control keys. I was thinking about this, because I don't like extra keys; maybe you could side-step with walking enabled and do a lean. I dunno, but adding two more keys to any game is generally a bad thing.

"and it's that the game already has too many control keys."

Um... ok.

I'll take those two new keys and, tell you what Steve, you don't have to use them. But a stealthy shooter, or a shooter with stealthy options, needs a way for the player to check around corners.

-Andrew

---

Quote:

I dunno, but adding two more keys to any game is generally a bad thing.

---

Bub:
"I doubt even the action movie audience would swallow the hero re-equiping himself from crates there Bill."

Bah, that's just details. Besides, I didn't notice Jolie nabbin more ammo from behind rocks in the crypt in *that* movie.

Alan:
"What else am I supposed to do with the 'Q' and 'E' keys? They're the natural extension of the WASD movement setup. Say, haven't we had this discussion before?"

Not all of us use WASD. Some of us use SZXC. Yes, I have long fingers, but that gives me a ton of keys to bind in my easy reach. :)

Apparently my habit of using the arrow keys, the page movement keys, and the keypad just isn't edgy enough anymore.

Amusing true story:

Why I no longer use the Arrow Keys.

I was reviewing Blood 2, fittingly, and I was using the arrow keys as was my custom. Given the space on my desk that meant my left arm was across my body and my right was on the mouse, close by. Deadline time was nigh so I was doing this for 5 hours straight.

My left arm began to feel numb and I felt shooting pains up and down it. I told my wife who is a nurse.

Anyone dating or married to a nurse can tell you they tend to leap to the worst case scenario... she figured "He's 29 and having a heart attack"

With much convincing she finally got me to go to the damn emergency room... of course I was fine. It was the damn arrow keys and that posture. The Doctor remarked "I'd heard those violent games were dangerous..."

I've used WASD ever since and my heart is fine and healthy, so is my arm.

True story.
-Andrew

>Not all of us use WASD.

Regardless of whether or not you use WASD, the ability to lean is mandatory, especially for a game that features a "stealth" mode. The fact that you can't lean in NOLF is just another example of features/gameplay not being fully thought out.

Along those same lines, the ability to go prone is mandatory too. Day of Defeat has forever spoiled me in that regard.

'I was reviewing Blood 2, fittingly, and I was using the arrow keys as was my custom. Given the space on my desk that meant my left arm was across my body and my right was on the mouse, close by. Deadline time was nigh so I was doing this for 5 hours straight.'

That's why you use an MS Natural keyboard dragged over to the left. This was pre-mouselook days, wasn't it?

Nope, Blood 2 was mouselook (you're thinking of the far superior Blood 1).

And I can't drag it over. I use a keyboard tray and... you'd have to kill me before I'd ever use a "Natural" keyboard.

Or, you could try WASD Jason, it works just fine.
But I guess on one of those "natural" abominations it'd be on an angle, eh? More reason to hate those monstrosities!

-Andrew
PS: Sorry about the MS Natural hate there, I'm a typewriter afficionado.

---

Quote:

Some of us use SZXC.

---

"I've used WASD ever since and my heart is fine and healthy, so is my arm."

Heh heh. Good story, Bub. Condolences for having to review Blood 2, though...

"Some of us use SZXC."

Weird, Bill. Very, very weird.

...I'll have to try it.

TRIBES 2 scoots the controls one set of keys to the right: ESDF. It still takes some getting used to. Every time I lift my fingers from the keyboard, I end up switching weapons when I go to move forward. But I really appreciate the extra keys it opens us.

Hmm. SZXC, huh?

-Tom

>>I'll take those two new keys and, tell you what Steve, you don't have to use them.

Good thing you're not a game designer. Adding more controls generally doesn't make a game better, just more complicated to control. It's the kind of fake depth that impresses game reviewers. Most games give separate keys for functions that could easily be done with a generic "do the only action you can do with this object" key.

PC designers are lazy; "just add another key." That's the solution for every interface problem. Bah, consoles have considerably more elegant interfaces in this regard, though the new controllers, with 10 buttons, are getting loopy.

>>But a stealthy shooter, or a shooter with stealthy options, needs a way for the player to check around corners.

How about making "walk + sidestep = lean" so you don't need additional keys? Or have the game automatically have you lean if you're at a standstill and sidestep?

If it's a third-person game I'd agree that a leaning graphic is important for visual reasons alone, but first-person games take so many liberties with collision detection and other things that I think leaning could/should just be faked. Hell, if someone was looking at a corner, they could see you if you leaned into the doorway too; if they don't "see" you if they lean, why not make the game so they don't "see" you if you barely move away from a corner?

Bah!

After playing so much HL and its progeny, Q is now hardwired as "weapon switch" and E is "use object." I'd prefer "lean" to be a toggle key so I only have one more to deal with. Same goes for prone/crouch/stand.

> Adding more controls generally doesn't make a game better, just more complicated to control.

More complicated to control? What are you smoking? One of the big complaints about Rainbow Six was that you couldn't lean around corners.

>How about making "walk + sidestep = lean" so you don't need additional keys?

So you're proposing that instead of using one key to perform the task, I use two keys in a bizarre and unintuitive combination (that makes me look down at the keyboard) to perform that same task.

Sign me up!

I don't think you can categorically state that leaning is a must or not for every game. The lack of it doesn't hurt most pure shooters, while it's essential in games like Thief or Deus Ex or the like. Keyboard command proliferation is an issue, though--I love shooters I can sit down and just play. Red Faction, for all of its flaws, is like that. No funky commands to learn, just standard WASD and go. Mech games are the worst--even with a full featured joystick you're left with about a billion keys to remember.

Right Robert. I only missed leaning in NOLF because it seemed like something I *should* be able to do. I think lean buttons are a better choice than Steve's suggestions though, partially because that's how it's been done before... but mostly because using a combination of buttons seems counter-intuitive and because his suggestions that leaning be context sensitive (sidestep near a corner and you lean) sounds like something that could result in mistakes. "I tried to lean and boom, there I am out in the hallway!"

Still, I played through the game without it, even that office building level (which I enjoyed despite the "lack o' leaning").

I was nowhere near as enamored with NOLF as the CGM crew, but I liked it better than that other game that won game of the year from other magazines and sites. In that one you could lean.

I also agree that NOLF is an astounding achievement considering it's 18 month development time. Especially from the folks that brought us Shogo MAD and Blood 2.

I disagree about keyboard command proliferation being an issue. If it's useful, and helpful to playing the game, gimmie a handy way to do it.

I'd also argue that the control learning curve of the Mech games is part of the attraction. They're simulations, after all.
-Andrew

Good points, Andrew, but I'll say that one reason we don't see that many sims anymore is that they became too complex, and keyboard/controller bloat is one reason for that complexity. For me, 'Mech games are attractive in spite of the complexity. I don't like sims per se, just the stuff that they are simulating, if you follow me.

I think what Steve was trying to say, and I think this is a good idea, is that leaning should be automatic when you have walk mode toggled. Have one button that toggles (not a "hold down" button) between walk and run modes (hell, call them "sneak" and "run" modes). In run mode, when you hit the A key, you strafe left. In walk mode, when you hit the A key, you lean left. That would work even in hardcore leaning games like Thief, because really, the only time you need to strafe is in a combat situation, and the only time you really need to lean is when you are sneaking.

Now that kind of implementation makes sense.

About 'mech games: I thought Mechwarrior 4 was a lot less simulator like and more action oriented, so it didn't have the keyboard bloat problems. All you really needed was the fire groups 1,2,3 buttons, a couple of targeting buttons, toggle fwd/rev and the throttle. Having more buttons available makes things more interesting, but not a whole lot easier and they weren't really needed.

Mech 4 is about the best of the bunch in that regard. Mech 3 is about the worst--incredibly convoluted controls. I still love all the MW games though.

Ok Ben (Steve), that sounds perfectly reasonable idea to me.

-Andrew

Billy:
"Regardless of whether or not you use WASD, the ability to lean is mandatory, especially for a game that features a "stealth" mode. The fact that you can't lean in NOLF is just another example of features/gameplay not being fully thought out."

OMG I agree with you. First I agreed with Asher, now I agree with you. Are those horsemen I hear...?

Alan:
"Oh, well in that case, what else are you supposed to do with the 'A' and 'D' keys? ;)"

Usually I bind those to reload or alt fire or secondary use or whatever. Usually, though, the QWER and ASDF blocks are bound to weapons; the more I like the weapon, the closer it is to my fingers. V is jump, space bar is crouch. You should see my Q3A config. :)

Tom:
"Weird, Bill. Very, very weird."

Of course it is. But it works for me. Just ask anyone that I used to work with at Gamecenter. :) At the final-day party, half the art team came over and said, "Dude, we gotta come clean and tell you somethin. Back when you started, we used to watch you play all the time because we thought you were cheating." That was so cool. ;)

Man, I miss Gamecenter. *snif*

Steve:
"PC designers are lazy; "just add another key." That's the solution for every interface problem."

This might be a holdover from flight sims. Like I always say, just because you have 104 keys available doesn't mean you have to use 'em all.

For me, hell, if I have to bind more than 10 keys, I get confused.

Robert Mayer:
"Mech games are the worst--even with a full featured joystick you're left with about a billion keys to remember."

Did you try Mech4? Use a regular ol' MS Force Feedback joystick, and 90% of the stuff you use is available on the stick. Still need a keyboard for wingman commands, though. Then again, you could be all clever like Iwar2 and put it all on the hat, but that's more unwieldy, I think. "Hm. To dock I need to go RLRLUDRLUD"... bah. This a Konami game or what? :)

---

Quote:

That would work even in hardcore leaning games like Thief, because really, the only time you need to strafe is in a combat situation, and the only time you really need to lean is when you are sneaking.

---

"PC designers are lazy; "just add another key." That's the solution for every interface problem. Bah, consoles have considerably more elegant interfaces in this regard, though the new controllers, with 10 buttons, are getting loopy."

Yeah, that one-button mouse, that was fucking genius! Clearly there's a point of diminishing returns, but adding a key doesn't automatically make you a Bad Game Designer.

"It's the kind of fake depth that impresses game reviewers"

Why not? The fake depth of NOLF's stealth element sure impressed the heck out of you. If you can use that poison hairpin, you're a better man than I. I'd prefer to see this type of gameplay done correctly (Thief) than play a scattershot design where the detection rules are unclear. Frustration isn't fun.

"Yup, and it shouldn't work, but I think it does. It does try too many things, but I found that most, because they were all designed around this consistent cheesy 60s aesthetic. It still managed to fit into the bigger game, which was to make you feel like you were trapped in a 60s spy movie."

I am amazed to see a reviewer of your caliber influenced so heavily by an emotional attachment to a game. NOLF suffers from the same fundamental game design flaws as Deus Ex-- it tries to be too many things at once. I'm astonished that you're willing to write off such major problems with the game design with half-assed, glib comments like "it worked with the cheesy 60s aesthetic". Hell, you might as well just summarize with "It was fun."

"You couldn't possibly "win" Thief without stealth; it's entirely gameplay was based around sneaking."

That's called coherent game design. Antonym: NOLF.

I don't want to be painted as a NOLF-hata here. But if NOLF is such a great game, then by gum, so is Deus Ex. Of course, NOLF was "cuter" and "brighter" and therefore somehow magically immune to the effects of its own bad design decisions.

IMO, both games are noble efforts that fell significantly short. Deus Ex's design feels more like chutzpah in the face of engine limitations, whereas NOLF's design feels like a bunch of developers throwing darts at a dartboard to decide what nifty feature they'll add next. And miraculously, some of it DID work.

"On a related note, how many of you invert the mouse Y-axis?"

I do.

"The way I use leaning, I wouldn't be happy with the 'walk-mode' solution."

It's one of those solutions that sounds good on paper (gee, let's overload the keys) but would be a giant PITA in practice.

>>The fake depth of NOLF's stealth element sure impressed the heck out of you.

Yep. Because I've been sitting here praising the stealth elements of NOLF as being absolutely critical to the game's success and my favorite part of the game.

>>I'd prefer to see this type of gameplay done correctly (Thief) than play a scattershot design where the detection rules are unclear.

Okay, I'll use smaller words this time. NOLF ISN'T A STEALTH GAME YOU MORON. Was that clear?

NOLF is all about being a spy, which entails a little bit of sneaking (what is it, two whole levels, or about 25% of the whole game?), visiting exotic locations, and shooting them.

Here's the equivalent of your argument: Thief is a crappy action game because, well, you do occasionally have to fight, and compared to Serious Sam, its combat is woefully inadequate.

>>I am amazed to see a reviewer of your caliber influenced so heavily by an emotional attachment to a game.

I have no emotional attachment to the game. I just think it's a fantastic game. I think it's brilliantly written, it has one of the most consistent design aesthetics of any game in recent memory, it has great graphics, a great lead character, and yes, scads o' personality. Do I think it has flaws? You betcha, all games do. Do I feel compelled to dwell on those flaws? Nope.

>>NOLF suffers from the same fundamental game design flaws as Deus Ex-- it tries to be too many things at once.

You think it suffers, I think they made it work.

>>I'm astonished that you're willing to write off such major problems with the game design

I don't consider it having any major design problems.

>>>>"You couldn't possibly "win" Thief without stealth; it's entirely gameplay was based around sneaking."
>>That's called coherent game design. Antonym: NOLF.

Or it's called being one-dimensional, which is not something I'd call Thief but still, if you want to play one style of game throughout, by all means go play Serious Sam too.

>>But if NOLF is such a great game, then by gum, so is Deus Ex.

Well, I didn't like Deus Ex myself, but whatever. Lots of people did, and the most common "alternate" "Game of the Year" from our readers was Deus Ex.

>>Of course, NOLF was "cuter" and "brighter" and therefore somehow magically immune to the effects of its own bad design decisions.

Once again, I don't consider it having any bad design decisions.

>>NOLF's design feels like a bunch of developers throwing darts at a dartboard to decide what nifty feature they'll add next.

No, that would be Black & White.

Everything in NOLF made perfect sense in the context of it being a spy game. Spies sneak, they shoot people, they drive cool vehicles... ever see a Bond movie, or the Avengers? What you call throwing darts is being faithful to the source material. Is it the greatest stealth game? Nope. Is it the greatest pure action shooter? Nope. Is it the greatest story ever written? Nope.

Alan:
"On a related note, how many of you invert the mouse Y-axis? I'm not sure if that's a carry-over from my Descent days or what."

/me raises his hand. But then I'm weird. Just ask Chick. :)

Well, one good thing came out of this argument: Wumpus admitted that Steve was a better man than he was!!

Personally, I like the motorcycles and snowmobiles in NOLF. I like the team games in multiplayer. (How many games let you run over your best friend with a snowmobile?? Not enough, that's for sure!!)

It seems like there's a little something for everyone in NOLF, which I like a lot.

My best friend said, at one point, "Ya know, if I were reviewing this game, it wouldn't review particularly well, but, man, it's really fun!!"

Technically, it left a lot to be desired, perhaps. But I've never enjoyed a FPS (a genre that I admit to having limited experience with, but still) as much as I did NOLF.

"You think it suffers, I think they made it work."

Again, let's look at Deus Ex. Some people thought everything in that game "worked" too. People can like it a lot-- they can even like it so much they mail Tom Chick scary threatening GIF files-- but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of questionable elements in the game.

"Once again, I don't consider it having any bad design decisions."

I just don't know how any reviewer can look in the mirror and say this about NOLF with a straight face. But then again I don't know how reviewers did it for Deus Ex either, but they did in droves, so.. shrug.

You know what would be a cool way to lean around corners? Use a force feedback mouse and just tilt it to the side you want to lean. That would be really intuitive and handy.

Wumpus:
"Again, let's look at Deus Ex. Some people thought everything in that game "worked" too. People can like it a lot-- they can even like it so much they mail Tom Chick scary threatening GIF files-- but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of questionable elements in the game."

I loved Deus Ex. A lot. Probably the best first-person game I've ever played. But I should have been able to kill Paul and have had a fourth ending. And the game should have ended right there.

And as a tip of the hat to Spector and crew, the game was so well-implemented (imho), I was honestly surprised when I couldn't kill him. Then I got pissed. :)

"I think it's brilliantly written"

Steve, I agree, somewhat, with your other points but you can't be serious about this one. A few cute and funny in-game conversations don't nearly offset the weak and over-wrought writing in the cutscenes. And even those in-game liners don't compare well to Thief's use of humor. Even the lead developer, of NOLF, copped to how bad those cutscenes were (in the post mortem).

NOLF had more than just a few flaws, btw. But it was a solid and fun shooter and, you're right, it captured the 60's spy thing well.

Wumpus is right about the scattershot design however, quite a few things in NOLF didn't work yet remained in the game regardless. Some of them significantly detracted from my experience. They didn't detract from yours apparently, but that's subjective.

Anyway, I gave GOTY to Thief 2 my own column. A couple months later, when I finished Baldur's Gate 2... I regretted that. BG2 is a tight game with almost no real flaws. Deus Ex and NOLF, frankly, don't compare well to it because as fun as they were... they did have real flaws.

-Andrew

>>but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of questionable elements in the game.

Jeez, you're almost as arrogant as Tom Chick. Just because you think there are questionable elements doesn't mean the games has questionable elements. Unless you have that "questionable elements" benchmark utility I keep reading about.

>>I just don't know how any reviewer can look in the mirror and say this about NOLF with a straight face.

It's easy. All games have flaws you could dwell on, but you also need to look at a game as a whole. Bitching about stealth being imperfect in NOLF is like bitching that Civilization's combat isn't as good as a wargame's.

Y'know, Civilization is a perfect example of a game that's all over the map, design wise. It has combat, diplomacy, empire building... hell, take any 4X game. Do we immediately dismiss the whole of the game because one of its "X" elements is done better in a game that focuses its entire design around that particular X? MOO is a crap game because its combat is less satisfying than Homeworld?

>>Steve, I agree, somewhat, with your other points but you can't be serious about this one. A few cute and funny in-game conversations don't nearly offset the weak and over-wrought writing in the cutscenes.

I don't think the cut scenes are weak and overwrought. A bit wordy, but not weak. Again, consider the context of the game.

>>Even the lead developer, of NOLF, copped to how bad those cutscenes were (in the post mortem).

No, he didn't say they were bad. He said they dragged out, which is true. Some are definitely too long. But I was never bored.

NOLF had more than just a few flaws, btw. But it was a solid and fun shooter and, you're right, it captured the 60's spy thing well.

Wumpus is right about the scattershot design however, quite a few things in NOLF didn't work yet remained in the game regardless. Some of them significantly detracted from my experience. They didn't detract from yours apparently, but that's subjective.

Anyway, I gave GOTY to Thief 2 my own column. A couple months later, when I finished Baldur's Gate 2... I regretted that. BG2 is a tight game with almost no real flaws. Deus Ex and NOLF, frankly, don't compare well to it because as fun as they were... they did have real flaws.

Oops, I left in the rest of your message when I posted it... ignore everything after "But I was never bored."

"Unless you have that "questionable elements" benchmark utility I keep reading about."

The dozens of things we listed in the above posts weren't enough for you? Jesus, you sound like a rabid Deus Ex fan. To some people, Deus Ex was so enjoyable that they were willing to overlook the cracks in the foundation. I guess you feel that way about NOLF.

"Bitching about stealth being imperfect in NOLF is like bitching that Civilization's combat isn't as good as a wargame's."

Oh yeah, since half the missions are INCREDIBLY annoying to complete without proper stealth. Let's see, Steve. What do spies do? Do they run in, guns blazing? No, they sneak around as much as possible. So pardon me for complaining about stealth being broken in a FPS spy game. And one where I have very limited health to sustain massive firefights. I don't know what I was thinking!

Don't believe me? Read the freaking walkthrough, man.

http://db.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/no_one_lives_forever.txt

Oh, I suppose it wasn't _all_ sneaking. Occasionally they would throw in wacky, difficult-to-control snowmobile and motorcycle missions. Or maybe a little pointless virtua cop interlude. Or even some multiple choice interviews to liven things up a bit. What is this, Konami's Track and Field? These guys are GAME DESIGN GENIUSES!

All I remember from NOLF is spending hours being frustrated by the incredibly weird detection rules. Mostly I let the alarms go off and did extensive save/reload to get past the swarms of guards that came running. With the alarms sounding constantly. That's FUN, ladies and gentlemen!

From the walkthrough I linked above:

--
Hey, I liked your FAQ on No One Lives Forever. I had a comment about Berlin
by Night, Scene 1. It's about killing the guard in the shack to open the
inside gate after you go through the tunnel. It is possible to kill him
before he sets the alarm off and without the camera seeing his body. The
first thing I do after coming out of the tunnel is pick off the tower guard
across the way with my silenced 9mm. Then I open the door to the guard
shack, barely crossing the threshold so he'll discover me. He goes apesh*t
and runs for the alarm without drawing his weapon. Then I shoot him just as
he gets to the alarm buzzer, but (obviously) before he trips it. I've been
able to consistently kill him without setting off the alarm by doing it this
way. The funny thing is the camera pans across where he lays. Who cares,
it works!
--

This FAQ reminded me about another absurdity in the game-- "the enemies can shoot through gates and fences, but you, for the most part, cannot." That one was FUN! I remember running into that one right after the hilarious monkey conversation scene starring Jason Cross and Steve Bauman, as I recall. Of course that monkey conversation was so hilarious and so chockablock with nutty 60's spy style, that I simply didn't care why I died in front of the fence while shooting at the guards within. Gee, I was shooting at them with my gun through that gate, yet they didn't die! Damn! That's annoy.. HAH! A MONKEY! HAHAHH! AHAHAH!

>>Jesus, you sound like a rabid Deus Ex fan.

Which part of me saying, "Well, I didn't like Deus Ex myself, but whatever" above don't you understand? Let me break that down for you: I didn't like Deus Ex.

>>Oh yeah, since half the missions are INCREDIBLY annoying to complete without proper stealth.

Half? Now I haven't played the game for a while, but I seem to recall there being parts of about three missions that required it. Out of what, 15? So it was, at most, about 20% of the entire game. Maybe less?

I almost never snuck around.

>>No, they sneak around as much as possible. So pardon me for complaining about stealth being broken in a FPS spy game.

Yawn. FPS="first-person shooter." As in it's an action game first, hence more shooting.

James Bond shoots and blows up stuff more than he sneaks around.

Man, this is easy.

I may as well bitch about combat being broken in Thief because, well, I couldn't run around and kill people, and the controls for combat weren't any good. What a crappy game.

>>And one where I have very limited health to sustain massive firefights. I don't know what I was thinking!

Ah, so here's the crux of it. You're no good at the game, so it sucks.

>>Don't believe me? Read the freaking walkthrough, man.

Oh god, external links. You can't make your point, so you try to let others make it for you. Whatever.

>>Occasionally they would throw in wacky, difficult-to-control snowmobile and motorcycle missions.

Awl, poor little wumpus couldn't control those complex vehicles. They make it hard for you, so you lash out at those who would dare think differently.

But you're right, the motorcycle missions weren't as good as Superbike 2001. The game sucks.

>>Or maybe a little pointless virtua cop interlude.

Yeah, because there were levels where you had no control of your character and moved through a pre-pathed level. Uh huh. Exactly like Virtua Cop.

>>Or even some multiple choice interviews to liven things up a bit.

Yes, because in the world of wumpus, all games should be entirely linear without any variation of gameplay whatsoever. Having multiple solutions to getting from point A to B is bad. Dialogue is bad, any different gameplay style is bad, trying anything that might make him angry is bad.

Here's Serious Sam. Go play it. You'll love it, because every single room/area is identical. You run in, you kill a few things, then something happens and boom, all hell breaks loose and there's a lot of things to kill. It's fun!

>>All I remember from NOLF is spending hours being frustrated by the incredibly weird detection rules.

In other words, you weren't any good at it, so it sucks. You didn't get it, so it sucks. You didn't realize that when cameras point at you, they stop, make a few noises, then trip unless you move, so it sucks. Yes, very complex.

>>Gee, I was shooting at them with my gun through that gate, yet they didn't die! Damn! That's annoy.. HAH! A MONKEY! HAHAHH! AHAHAH!

Blah blah blah. Whatever.

Hey, do you actually like a game so we can sit here and point out what a fucking idiot you are for liking it?

If I recall correctly, I think Wumpus liked a game called...um, what was it? Counter-Strike?

Yeah, the detection routines in Counter-Strike were fantastic. Unlike Sacrifice. Which has crappy detection routines. And is really just Quake with delusions of grandeur.

Or something like that.

-Tom

"Let me break that down for you: I didn't like Deus Ex."

But you do like NOLF which generally suffers from the same problems. Hence, the comparison.

"Oh god, external links. You can't make your point, so you try to let others make it for you. Whatever."

I was just refuting your claim that less than 20% of the game is sneaking. If you're too lazy to follow up on the factual evidence I provide to show that your claim is incorrect, then I can't help you.

"Half? Now I haven't played the game for a while, but I seem to recall there being parts of about three missions that required it. Out of what, 15? So it was, at most, about 20% of the entire game. Maybe less?"

Ladies and Gentlemen, exhibit A. See above.

"Blah blah blah. Whatever."

This is Steve's standard response to any actual examples of the bad design decisions in NOLF. Hey Steve-- were you the captain of your debate team? I'm just curious.

"In other words, you weren't any good at it, so it sucks. You didn't get it, so it sucks. You didn't realize that when cameras point at you, they stop, make a few noises, then trip unless you move, so it sucks. Yes, very complex."

Most of the stealth stuff was cribbed from Thief, which I thought was the best FPS since Half-Life. Except it was a crappy copy of Thief--the detection rules are inconsistent and random, to the point that the stealth element was mere frustration. And it's not just me. In addition to the posts above from other people who felt the same way, and the walkthrough, Here's another external link for you, Steve--

http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/readers/0,10986,168124,00.html

Look. I'm not saying NOLF was a bad game. Just that it had some fairly serious design problems... BUT WITH MONKEYS! Whether the monkeys are funny, brightly colored, and cute enough for you to overlook the problems, hey, that's your call.

Also, Sacrifice is Quake with delusions of grandeur. But no strafing.

Thief is not a first person shooter you dolt. It is a first person *sneaker*. There is very little shooting in it. NOLF is not a sneaker it is a shooter with some sneaking thrown in for variety. Two different genres.

And Sacrifice is nothing like Quake other than they are both computer games.

"People can like it a lot-- they can even like it so much they mail Tom Chick scary threatening GIF files-- but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of questionable elements in the game."

Sorry, but if I really like a game, I don't bash it on technicalities. People like to mock the "it's fun" evaluation, but that's really what every evaluation boils down to. The difference between a good evaluation and a bad one is that the good one will tell you WHY its fun. If you really enjoy a game but have a big list of "questionable elements," then you are probably dwelling too much on technicalities that have little impact on the design. Because if they had more impact on the design, then the game wouldn't be fun. Second-guessing your own enjoyment of a game is a risky venture--that's where you start saying assinine things such as "I like the game, but really I SHOULDN'T like it because it does X." But we've all had this discussion before (and it went nowhere, if I recall correctly).

I'm not trying to convince you that you liked NOLF or anything--if you didn't like it, then you didn't like it. By the same token, however, you trying to convince Steve that he is "wrong" for liking NOLF is, well, kinda pointless.

For what it's worth, I loved NOLF, too. Easily the best game of 2000, for me (although BG2 comes pretty close). I thought Deus Ex was okay. Sacrifice was way too difficult. Thief is quite possibly my favorite game, ever.

"You know what would be a cool way to lean around corners? Use a force feedback mouse and just tilt it to the side you want to lean. That would be really intuitive and handy."

That would be a really cool idea if it didn't require the use of a force feedback mouse. I find them really annoying.

"By the same token, however, you trying to convince Steve that he is "wrong" for liking NOLF is, well, kinda pointless."

Welcome to the wonderful world of wumpus, Ben.

"Sacrifice was way too difficult."

Did you know you can pause and give orders in single player? If you're the sort of big sissy who needs to do that sort of thing...

-Tom, official Qt3 Sacrifice evangelist

Really? Actually, I didn't know that. That helps. But my main problem with the game wasn't an interface thing. I found the strategy very difficult. I liked the game a lot--I still do--I'm just not very good at it.

Tom:
"Did you know you can pause and give orders in single player? If you're the sort of big sissy who needs to do that sort of thing..."

Up yours. :)

Ben:
"I found the strategy very difficult."

The main thing I learned is that it is a battle for souls, but unfortunately a wizard can pick up the souls of their own monsters with very little effort (pop up a shield, increase speed, and sweep through the battle). However, they can't do that if they are heading back to their altar or manalith to reform their body. If you can, lure them away from their own turf, or knock out a couple of manaliths, so you increase the distance they must travel.

Now, throw enough monsters into the battle to engage the enemy monsters, and concentrate the rest on the enemy wizard (including your own firepower). The enemy wizard's manahoars need to die, since they can reform from those, but the manahoars usually go down from collateral damage. If not, you can usually kill them with one shot from your basic attack. Once you have killed him/her, then go after the remaining enemy monsters, immediately attempting to capture their souls as they become available.

You may only net one or two souls out of each of these encounters, but be patient, and it will eventually swing the strategic tide.

"Now, throw enough monsters into the battle to engage the enemy monsters, and concentrate the rest on the enemy wizard (including your own firepower). The enemy wizard's manahoars need to die, since they can reform from those, but the manahoars usually go down from collateral damage. If not, you can usually kill them with one shot from your basic attack. Once you have killed him/her, then go after the remaining enemy monsters, immediately attempting to capture their souls as they become available."

Also, consider using your rocket launcher. It's a highly dangerous and effective weapon in the right hands.

"By the same token, however, you trying to convince Steve that he is "wrong" for liking NOLF is, well, kinda pointless."

My God, you're absolutely right! Unfortunately, nowhere in this discussion have I tried to do this. But I'll make a note of this handy tip you've provided, and I'll be sure to refer to it in the future.

While I'm making notes, here's one for you. I'll call it "my point". I don't believe any responsible reviewer, particularly one as good as Steve, should be running around the web willy-nilly, making statements like this one: "I don't consider [No One Lives Forever] having any bad design decisions." That's a direct quote from Mr. Bauman. Here's some more:

"Everything in NOLF made perfect sense in the context of it being a spy game. Spies sneak, they shoot people, they drive cool vehicles... ever see a Bond movie, or the Avengers? What you call throwing darts is being faithful to the source material. Is it the greatest stealth game? Nope. Is it the greatest pure action shooter? Nope. Is it the greatest story ever written? Nope."

Indeed, these things made sense in the context of the game-- but they did NOT make sense in the context of the GAMEPLAY. Unfortunately for Steve, this isn't a novel. It's a computer game. We actually have to play it, not just read how cool the list of features is on the game box.

Let's see. Sneaking was broken, as discussed above ad nauseam. The vehicles were gratuitous, gimmicky, and poorly implemented. I will admit they got the shooting people thing down quite well, though. Hell, if they just got rid of all the half-assed, half-hearted "look what we put in our game!" gimmicks and worked harder to get a few essential things right (sneaking, maybe?) they would have had a hell of a game on their hands.

The above two paragraphs are also my capsule review of Deus Ex. I'm throwing that one in for free.

"Second-guessing your own enjoyment of a game is a risky venture"

What second-guessing? I didn't enjoy NOLF. I more or less forced myself to finish it, in the vain hope that I might derive some enjoyment from it at some indeterminate point in the future. Then the game ended. Was it a bad game? No. Was it a game with "no bad design decisions"? Only if you're in love with Cate Archer. Who is pretty hot, admittedly.

"Sorry, but if I really like a game, I don't bash it on technicalities."

Which technicalities? Like Tom Chick bouncing a basketball off the head of a guy fifty times in Deus Ex, then complaining because the guy proceeds to have a normal conversation with you, like nothing happened?

Steve Bauman, my birthday gift to you this year is your very own wumpus. It was mine. I got tired of it. Now it's yours.

However, there are three rules to having your own wumpus:

1) The wumpus will usually communicate through links to other material. Reading this other material is strictly optional reading and often irrelevant.

2) Since the wumpus will often quote you out of context and since the wumpus is capable of arguing with you without your participation, don't feel obligated to respond to it. It's just looking for attention.

3) Never, ever, EVER tell the wumpus that Counter-Strike wasn't your choice for Game of the Year. For any year.

Enjoy.

-Tom

Playing Sacrifice is all about bringing order over chaos through constant action and reaction. And its like Supertanker said, its about being patient. And its about Firefists. And its definitely about building your own wizard and battling opponents online with them. My wizard used Trogs to harry enemy wizards, Firefists to engage the main melee force, earthflings to act as AA guns, Boulderdash's to take out manaliths, wall of fire to control the battlefield, Soulwind to manage my souls from afar, and DEATH to act as a "Things are bad for me, so lets make them bad for everyone" weapon.

And Sacrifice is sure as hell not Quake. Kohan has really good strategic and tactical depth. Counter Strike makes me car sick, but Flashpoint doesn't. And I can't wait for Civ III.

And I like the conjunction And.

"Steve Bauman, my birthday gift to you this year is your very own wumpus. It was mine. I got tired of it. Now it's yours."

Hehe, if you haven't tangled with Wumpus, you aren't really participating in these boards I think.

Tom, all levity aside, what did you think of NOLF? I don't seem to recall you reviewing it anywhere.

-Andrew
PS: Steve, if it is your birthday soon, happy birthday to you. Alas, I have no trolls to give.

>>Let's see. Sneaking was broken, as discussed above ad nauseam. The vehicles were gratuitous, gimmicky, and poorly implemented.

Okay, I'll humor you. As you've described sneaking above, you don't have an issue with the design but in its implementation. If you think there's a problem with sneaking as part of a game's design, you have to concede that Thief is a crap game. Or alternately you'd have to say that sneaking has no place in a game like NOLF. In either case, you've shot yourself in the foot. Thanks for playing.

And remember how I said NOLF is a flawed game? As I've said ad nausem, I have no issues with the game's design; however, I do have minor issues with the implementation of some of that design, though not enough from my view to harm the overall experience. But as we see, your mileage may vary.

As for vehicles, that's a matter of taste. I found them neither gratuitous or gimmicky. I also didn't find them poorly implemented, but again, that's a matter of taste.

And when wil you get it through your head that solely because you find sneaking "broken" doesn't make it so? Unless of course you're in possession of the "Sneaking" benchmark utility I've heard so much about, this isn't an absolute statement of fact, regardless of how many FAQs or Gamespot reader reviews you link to.

I thought the vehicles were very cool. Perhaps not perfectly done, but very well-done, and vehicles are far too rare in FPSs.

"Alas, I have no trolls to give."

After I read this line, I feel the insane urge to say: Pa Rum Pa Pum Pum.

"Tom, all levity aside, what did you think of NOLF?"

The opposite of everything wumpus has said.

It's actually pretty popular at Shoot Club. Those guys love snowmobiles and stuff. The darling little simpletons...

-Tom

Oh, come on, Mister Pretentious!! The snowmobiles rock!!

We love them. Last several times we've gotten together (which isn't nearly as often as you guys at Shoot Club, unfortunately), NOLF has been very popular, and the snowmobiles are a good part of the fun -- though the novelty has worn off a little, and we no longer ride them just for the sake of riding them...

wumpus, while I know this is like talking to a brick wall: Sacrifice is the same as Quake only in that they are both computer games.

"My God, you're absolutely right! Unfortunately, nowhere in this discussion have I tried to do this."

Sorry, I must have misread your last post--the one where you told Steve that he is wrong for liking NOLF. Or this one, where you elaborate by telling him that he is IRRESPONSIBLE for liking NOLF. I guess I just tend to read too much into things.

"I don't believe any responsible reviewer, particularly one as good as Steve, should be running around the web willy-nilly, making statements like this one: "I don't consider [No One Lives Forever] having any bad design decisions."

Personally, I think it's even MORE irresponsible to claim that NOLF is full of BAD design decisions, because that's just not true. Which means that you are not only irresponsible, but also a liar, and quite possibly an abuser of helpless animals.

So there. Do I win?

"Let's see. Sneaking was broken, as discussed above ad nauseam."

Was it? I was able to sneak just fine, so obviously you are lying again. Or maybe you just lack 1337 skilz.

"What second-guessing? I didn't enjoy NOLF."

And may the courts show no mercy to those irresponsible fools that fail to recognize that Judgement has been passed. Nobody can like NOLF now, because Wumpus has deemed it Ungood. You heard it here first.

"Which technicalities? Like Tom Chick bouncing a basketball off the head of a guy fifty times in Deus Ex, then complaining because the guy proceeds to have a normal conversation with you, like nothing happened?"

Whoa, now I'm dizzy. I thought we were talking about NOLF. But yeah, that's exactly the kind of technicality that I'm talking about. Because all games have moments like that, mostly because we have yet to perfect the 100% accurate Reality Simulator. Even Thief, my own personal Favorite Game Ever, has them. Not as many as Deus Ex, certainly, but then Thief is also more limited in how it allows you to interact with the game world. If someone designed a game that could realistically react to every nonsensical thing the player might do... well, that WOULD be impressive. But we have yet to see that game.

Is it me, or does everyone see Tom as Thor to Wumpus's Loki?

Who's Thor? Who's Loki?

Rob, you wouldn't think so had you seen Tom's physique. However, I have seen him drink an ocean from a drinking horn. Wait, no, that was Asher.

-Andrew

"though the novelty has worn off a little, and we no longer ride them just for the sake of riding them..."

Luckily for me, the novelty of riding Tom Chick just never seems to wear off. GOTY 2001!

"wumpus, while I know this is like talking to a brick wall"

Allow me to summarize: why play Sacrifice when you can play Battlezone instead? It's tough to reason with Tom and his gang of Sacrifice moonies. Of course, the game sold all of 50,000 copies. And at least 49,000 of them post to this messageboard. For all I know, Tom Chick is really a pseudonym for David Perry.

"Or alternately you'd have to say that sneaking has no place in a game like NOLF. In either case, you've shot yourself in the foot. Thanks for playing."

Sneaking has a place in a spy game. You said it yourself, and I concur. What doesn't have a place in a spy game is crappy, broken sneaking.

Let me ask you a question. You've previously posted on the messageboard that you play all FPS games on the "easy" setting. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but.. might that affect your impression of the game? And before you get all up in arms about this, I'm not the one going around accusing people of sucking at the game in question.

Also, I'm throwing in a bonus external link, just for you, Steve.

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Venue/9769/rb/e/easy.html

If you don't like NOLF, then you don't know what fun is.

Yeah, what he said...

Okay, this is vaguely relevant...

Have you guys seen the picture of the chick that was the model for Cate Archer?

Her name's Mitzi Martin. Check her out here.

Anyway, this seemed like a good thread to add this to.

Also, it seems like this should be a point in NOLF's favor.

Counter that one, Wumpus!!

>>Sneaking has a place in a spy game. You said it yourself, and I concur. What doesn't have a place in a spy game is crappy, broken sneaking.

Okay, then understand my point above: if you agree that sneaking has a place in the game, you don't have an issue with the game's design, you have an issue with the way the design is implemented. That's an entirely different thing.

>>Let me ask you a question. You've previously posted on the messageboard that you play all FPS games on the "easy" setting. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but.. might that affect your impression of the game?

Nope, not at all. NOLF wasn't particularly easy on easy, the sneaking is still basically the same... the hit points in combat are altered.

When I'm reviewing them I typically play them on easy so I can complete them in a reasonable amount of time. When playing for fun, it depends on the level of frustration I'm looking for.

I reviewed Red Faction and played it on the middle setting because, well, I forgot to change the difficulty and it wasn't particularly hard to begin with. Now you want to talk about a game with dumb stealth levels, ugh....

Last night I played through three of the sneaking levels of NOLF on the hardest difficulty level and I have no idea why the game's "rules" baffle you. You listen for the cameras, you watch the guys' movement patterns, then you creep along and hide behind things. Big whoop.

wumpus said:

---

Quote:

Allow me to summarize: why play Sacrifice when you can play Battlezone instead?

---

Yeah, Freespace 2 being a good example.

Back on topic... I d/led the RF demo for gits and shiggles last night and played through it in about 5-10 minutes. This has to be the shortest demo that I've ever seen in my life. The demo also doesn't really let you play with Geo-Mod in the context of the game, though blasting holes in the floor of the glass house room was quite entertaining. In fact it was probably more entertaining than the single player demo snippet that they give you.

I'm not a big FPS player, but the website made the story sound interesting enough, however the game demo itself just didn't grab me. For me, the thing that can really sell me on a game that isn't an automatic 'must have' is the demo. It seemed to me that whoever made RF doesn't realize that the demo can be a powerful marketing tool. Also, I'm surprised that mags haven't been charging companies for putting their demos on CDs from the get-go. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Am I the only one who thinks this way about demos? I know many of you guys get free copies since you're writers/editors for game mags, but what do you all think?

"Her name's Mitzi Martin. Check her out here."

Good Lord!
Those eyes are real? My marriage is suddenly in jeopardy.

Hmm, apparently she was in "Dude Where's My Car?", "Meet Joe Dirt", and she starred as "Woman" in "Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man"

-Andrew

"Okay, then understand my point above: if you agree that sneaking has a place in the game, you don't have an issue with the game's design, you have an issue with the way the design is implemented. That's an entirely different thing."

A good designer would pull things from the game that aren't properly implemented-- because they'll only frustrate, not entertain, the player. This is a problem in NOLF, but it's a much bigger problem in Deus Ex. A good design means focus-- doing a few things well instead of trying to do everything.. poorly.

"Make up your mind. Is it Quake or Battlezone? Or is it some other irrelevant example?"

Sacrifice clearly didn't resonate with gamers, or it would have sold better. I know we can dredge up examples on both sides, but consider that just another exhibit for the prosecution. You know another game that didn't sell all that well? NOLF. Of course, low sales doesn't prove anything in and of itself-- but it certainly doesn't help the argument that either game was "all that and a bag of chips."

"I have an idea, maybe it is just a good game."

Sacrifice, for me, was too much compromise-- they gutted the strategy to the twitch level to make the game more palatable to the WASD brigade. The biggest mistake, IMO, was making everything revolve around the player's perspective all the time.. yet somehow, even with this Quake-ish player (and camera) fixation, they managed to leave out something as critical as strafing, which just adds insult to injury. Half the "strategy" is using your own wizard's rocket launcher.. er, I mean, spells.. to kill everything in sight as rapidly as possible. And do everything as rapidly as possible in general. Don't forget to cast "haste" on yourself!

Speaking of spells and when to use them. Sacrifice suffers badly from the Starcraft-esque micromanagement problem. Your most precious resource is not souls, but time. And reflexes. But it's a twitch game, right? Just like Quake..

I'll say it again. Tom has played Quake mods with as much strategic depth as Sacrifice. All you need to succeed at Sacrifice is a bunch of hot key bindings, and good reflexes. How is that different than your basic internet Quake 3 capture the flag game?

Battlezone is a much better example of involving the player as an integral part of the game, WITHOUT dumbing the strategy down.

"Her name's Mitzi Martin. Check her out here."

Actually I think the in-game model looks even better than the real thing. Not that she's chopped liver or anything.. go figure. Monolith did do a fantastic job on the player models and the animations.

"Back on topic... I d/led the RF demo for gits and shiggles last night and played through it in about 5-10 minutes. This has to be the shortest demo that I've ever seen in my life. The demo also doesn't really let you play with Geo-Mod in the context of the game, though blasting holes in the floor of the glass house room was quite entertaining. In fact it was probably more entertaining than the single player demo snippet that they give you."

Yeah, the demo is kind of weak. The parts of the game involving more powerful weapons and/or vehicles were my favorites. Still, Red Faction is just "good". I'm not trying to oversell it here, like some people with certain games I could mention.

"Actually I think the in-game model looks even better than the real thing. Not that she's chopped liver or anything.. go figure."

This says a lot about a person. I'd prefer the real thing, myself, I mean, those polygons would probably begin cut you after a while.

"Sacrifice clearly didn't resonate with gamers, or it would have sold better."

Bah, that says nothing except: "games with strange concepts and gods aren't appealing to the mainstream." Sacrifice is odd. Odd is hard to market. Plus, you know what game sold worse, or as badly as NOLF and Sacrifice Jeff? Battlezone.

The key stat, which is probably impossible to truly find, would be how many people bought Sacrifice, Battlezone or NOLF and then returned it out of disatisfaction. That stat matters far more than sales when considering quality.

-Andrew

"Half the "strategy" is using your own wizard's rocket launcher.. er, I mean, spells.. to kill everything in sight as rapidly as possible. "

Eh? That's news to me. My first time through the game, I probably "fired the rocket launcher" (used the offensive spell) less than 20 times over the course of the entire campaign - the vast majority of these instances were to kill an enemy unit straggling so I wouldn't have to order my own units in to do it. The other times, my shots were aimed at the enemy wizard directly, and again, in situations where he was pretty much alone or being swarmed by my own troops. As a matter of fact, I barely used ANY offensive spells, as most of my spell sets were defensive in nature, and I had trouble using my ultimate offense spell "Meanstalks" effectively. I tended to use my units' innate abilities with my wizard acting in a support role. I suppose with certain spell sets, a wizard could be much more offensive in nature, but in general, I found the standard "fire" spell to be too slow to be very useful, much less Quake like or "twitch."

Since you brounght it up, I felt Battlezone was a HELL of a lot more action oriented than Sacrifice.

-Matthew

You guys really shouldn't be arguing with wumpus about Sacrifice. He played through three single player missions, got frustrated, and quit. His insight into the game is either uncanny or completely disingenuous.

My guess is the latter.

-Tom

Gamecenter did an article about good but poor-selling games, and IIRC Battlezone sold about 73,000 copies. Can anyone dig up a link?

Sacrifice, Battlezone, and NOLF are all among my favorite games, but none of them sold well. Those sales figures tell me that most game buyers have their heads jammed well up into their asses, and they are missing out on some great stuff.

You're not going to get a link to Gamecenter. That stuff is all gone.

I find it surprising that those games didn't sell. The FPS market hasn't really been as good as most gamers think. A few games do well, but plenty of decent games (NOLF, KISS, Undying) don't sell.

Sacrifice got great reviews, had good buzz before it was released, looked great, was an RTS, etc.

It's kinda scary. It looks like the PC market is a tiny handful of games selling well and everything else selling poorly.

"It's kinda scary. It looks like the PC market is a tiny handful of games selling well and everything else selling poorly."

Which makes it a lot like the book market then. I read once that each book publisher generally pays for their entire year of lackluster sales and genuine failures with 2-3 bestsellers. Most actually do better with the much lower selling Nonfiction market than they do with fiction. Because nonfiction moves at a nice level predictable pace.

"A few games do well, but plenty of decent games (NOLF, KISS, Undying) don't sell."

Agreement, disagreement, agreement. I thought KISS was awful.

-Andrew

Tom, I am going to take your advice. wumpus lives in a bizzare world of his own sometimes. I don't want to visit. :)

About NOLF, KISS, and Undying:

I would say KISS looked bad from the demo, Undying looked decent from the demo but I never bought it, and NOLF was great.

-- Xaroc

KISS was fun enough if you just wanted an old-style Doom shooter and didn't mind the actual lack of KISS in the game.

... Bah it was also lacking an old-style Doom shooter. It was more of a Blood 2 style shooter really. KISS wouldn't have helped that game at all, the only reason the ommission is a big deal is because, presumably, some PFCs from the KISS army may've been suckered into buying to for the KISS presence. Hell, even if it had included Al Jolsen (thanks Erik, I still love that) it would have been hum-drum, poobah, pap, and hokum. It had ho-hum weaponry, mediocre level design, and no personality whatsoever. Also it had maddening creature generators and almost nonexistent AI....

Sorry to keep disagreeing with you here Mark but I didn't have any fun playing KISS: Psycho Circus.

The old-style Doom shooter out today is Serious Sam. That old frantic action feeling baby!

-Andrew
Anyone know how well that sold, btw?

-Andrew

A better Mitzi Martin picture:

http://www.gamebabe.de/web/dbimages/Bilder/vollbild/751.jpg

"Anyone know how well that [Serious Sam] sold, btw?"

Not fair. It only cost $15 when it was released.

I know Bob, and that was a fair price all around. I'm still curious if the price helped move copies faster, and I'd be disappointed if it sold only as well as a mediocre full-priced shooter.

-Andrew

"Since you brounght it up, I felt Battlezone was a HELL of a lot more action oriented than Sacrifice."

I loved both these games, but I don't agree with your statement. I remember being able to sit back quite a bit in BZ and oversee things. And there were natural pauses between battles in BZ. Sacrifice on the other hand was more of a move or die game, and therefore had a lot more action within it IMO. I forget sometimes how fun BZ was. I still have it on my hard drive because the installation was so small. I would also wager that the graphics still hold up even against today's standards. I'm gunna fire that sumbitch up.

"You guys really shouldn't be arguing with wumpus about Sacrifice. He played through three single player missions, got frustrated, and quit. His insight into the game is either uncanny or completely disingenuous."

It's true. I finished NOLF, at least, so I'm better qualified to talk about it. I feel very strongly that NOLF is an overrated game.

Sacrifice, on the other hand, isn't an overrated game. It's a question of what you want out of the gameplay: I think the _design_ precludes any real strategic depth. The extreme player-centric perspective excerbates the already difficult problem of twitchy, micromanagement stuff we see in "real" RTS games. Example? Don't forget to cast "haste" on yourself! And all your minions!

And however good it may be, I'm simply not interested in a quake-style blastfest with some strategic underpinnings. I'd recommend Kohan in a heartbeat over Sacrifice. At least Kohan TRIED to address the micromanagement and time problems we have in RTS games, even if it wasn't wholly successful. Sacrifice just made those problems more evident.

And if you want a pure FPS strategy game in the vein of Sacrifice, Battlezone is without a doubt the best thing the industry has ever done. It's a goddamn shame BZII was such a letdown. I keep waiting for the next great strategic FPS, and you know what? Sacrifice wasn't it, folks.

Battlezone 2 was... okay. I dont know if i can take the comparison between BZ and Sacrifice. You dont have units built at a base in Sacrifice, you dont have mana in Battlezone, and as a wizard in Sacrifice you dont really have "guns" like an fps does. Though i can see your comparison, its not really accurate Wumpus!

I've played a few online Sacrifice and it doesnt play out like an fps... the better players are the rts types... in fact fighting with your wizard online is suicide! Sacrifice, from what ive played online, does suffer from the rush syndrome... at least at release it did.

Anyway, I think NOLF was underrated. I have played both Half Life and NOLF side by side in the past week or two all the way thru. I enjoyed NOLF much more. The only problem i have with NOLF is that its a pig of an engine in 32 bit mode... other than that its an almost perfect solo plaer game!

etc

Wumpus is an anagram for "oompa-loompa," isn't it?

I always knew there had to be something about oompa-loompas what angered the local beasties so much that they tried to eat them all before Wonka saved them.

I wonked out on Sacrifice after a few missions myself. The one where you have to destroy the gate powering the demon then deal with the treacherous other wizard was just beyond my meager RTS skills. I did like the look of the game, but it wasn't my style. Unlike the wumpus-loompa, I think it was probably a great game. It looked well thought-out and was beautiful to see, but was just not my cup 'o tay.

Alas, it is the fate of the small of mind to assume anything beyond their scope of awareness is simply poorly done.

I'll say it again: Sacrifice isn't a bad game per se. It's just a bad RTS game. By "bad" I mean it suffers terribly from the micromanagement and time resource issues that dog all RTS games. The player-centric design of Sacrifice excerbates these problems to near-epic proportions, as I documented above.

If you're not looking for a lot of strategy, Sacrifice is a fine, well-made, and relatively innovative game. At this point, I'm looking for games that keep the "strategy" part of "real time strategy" intact. It's tougher than you'd think (Kohan).

Gamecenter may be offline, but everyone who worked there has the entire site on a series of CDs.

I looked up the feature and according to it, Battlezone sold 73,324 units. Even more shocking is that Heretic II (which I think is an awesome game) sold a paltry 28,994 copies. Ugh.

Heretic 2 sold less than 30k? I didnt know it was THAT low.... H2 is still my fave fantasy fps. Actually id put it in my top 5 fave solo fps games... it has some of the best environments and architecture! Its a very pretty game, and still is... considering its based on the "old" Quake 2 engine, thats pretty good!

Comparing H2 to other solo fantasy fps games like Rune and Drakken or Wheel of time... id still rather play Heretic 2 again.

oh yeah, and Die by the Sword is an underrated fps fantasy game.. had good atmosphere.

etc

I loved Die by the Sword. I saw over at GoneGold that Target has it plus its expansion (or two expanions?) for $9.99. Man, what a great buy!

Anyone wanting to play Heretic II that doesn't own it...it's $6.99 at EB. Another of my lost games I had to scout lowest prices on.

--Dave

Die by the Sword sold 28,603 copies.

I know a lot of people had problems with the controls, but once you figured it out the game was a blast, especially multiplayer. We used to play it at Gamer and one person would play as the ogre (with the big club) and everyone else would be those little green guys. If you were the ogre it was like playing baseball--one good smack and you'd send people flying all the way across the map.

"H2 is still my fave fantasy fps... and Die by the Sword is an underrated fps fantasy game.."

What is going on at this boards in the last two days? Everyone has gone genre-mad. Undying (first-person, lots of shooting) isn't a first-person shooter but Heretic II (third-person) and Die by the Sword (third-person, absolutely no shooting) are?

-Ron

"What is going on at this boards in the last two days? Everyone has gone genre-mad."

I guess I'd have to say my favorite role-playing game is Red Alert 2. Also, SimCity 2000 is one of the best flight sims ever.

Oh, yeah, Sacrifice is my favorite Quake clone.

-Tom

And I've gone plural mad. This boards is crazy indeed!

-Ron

"If you were the ogre it was like playing baseball--one good smack and you'd send people flying all the way across the map."

Accidentally playing as the Ogre is about the only time I've ever truly felt I purely dominated during a multiplayer game. And boy did the power go to my head. We were on this ridiculous map that was basically just a cross floating in space. All the Ogre had to do was sweep that silly club back and forth and the other players would just fly off into oblivion. It was just carnage. Not one of my shining moments at Shoot Club, morally, but clearly a moment of evil glee. I finally understood why some of the guys seemed to be practicing so much.

I also liked the mod Ogre hockey. Actually, I loved it. I just couldn't stop laughing while we played it. Needless to say I was definitely in the minority.

Amanpour

>We were on this ridiculous map that was basically just a cross floating in space.

That was a great level. I used to "spike" the other players; I'd swing down and hit them, they'd bounce off the platform, hit the ceiling, and then fall off the edge.

Brilliant.

Dave wrote:

---

Quote:

Anyone wanting to play Heretic II that doesn't own it...it's $6.99 at EB. Another of my lost games I had to scout lowest prices on.

---

Oracle. God, what a POS. 18k? I hope you were expressing that in units of Italian Lira.

So, anyone else excited about the announcement of NOLF 2? I was kinda surprised, but then again, kinda not...

Maybe this one will actually please Wumpus...I can think of a few guys who I know will love it though!! (Count me in that group.)

I'm very excited about NOLF 2. I played the first one 3 times and I still come back to it!