My local EB has plenty in stock.

Not only that, you can still order them from EBGames online. By the same token, you cannot order a Gamecube.

Compared to PS2 last year, with its horrible lineup of launch games, Xbox is a bust for launch day. They should have been cleaned out by now.

--Dave

How can you say it's a bust already? No official numbers are in. They were all gone from the local stores here: EB, Best Buy, Software Etc., Walmart, Target. I guess I can make the same leap you did (using one anecdote to project an entire nation's sales results) and call it "a runaway success."

I think everyone should calm down and wait for actual sales figures.

The headline for this threa should have been "XBox doesn't sell out AT DAVE'S LOCAL EB"

I've seen it posted elsewhere, I just confirmed it locally. There are a lot of people noting systems on the shelves. I also pointed you to EBGAMES.COM which is still accepting orders. That's not good.

I'm sure they sold a bunch of systems and yes, there are places sold out. But the bottom line is that on Friday/Saturday, we should have heard people crying out in pain from not being able to get one. That isn't the case.

Interpret that as you wish. IMO, considering the last two console releases (three with N64) featured sellouts within the first weekend of MORE product (500000 PS2s, similar numbers of Dreamcast), this launch is a bust.

--Dave

I think the reason why there wasn't a sellout was because a lot of people had a "why bother, there aren't going to be available" mind frame.

EB is accepting orders for November 30th shipment, which would seem to indicate ... THEY ARE SOLD OUT OF THEIR INITIAL SHIPMENT(S). And all the stores I mentioned above WERE sold out. If I had wanted to buy one, I'd have been SOL.

Either that, or Microsoft actually built enough units to meet anticipated demand and then some, unlike what Sony did last year.

Maybe. I think it's annoying actually that Nintendo Gamecubes are so hard to buy online. The N64 came out 5 years ago. The GameCube was delayed a year. Meet demand for God's sake!

And the stories of there not being enough GameCube memory cards and controllers ... that's just absurdly annoying.

Don't forget, the Christmas shopping season kicks into ultra-high-gear 4 days from now.

Neither the X-Box nor the GC sold out - KB Toys still has a good 25% of its GC bundles available, and Barnes and Noble (EB, EBX) still has a number of X-Box units available. Rough sales estimate peg GC sales at a little over 400K (out of 700K) and X-Box sales at around 200K (out of 400K). Not bad, but definitely not PS2-style sales.

"Not bad, but definitely not PS2-style sales."

How much did PS2 sell in the first 4-5 days?

Also, B&N is parent of EB? Wow. Didn't know that.

"Don't forget, the Christmas shopping season kicks into ultra-high-gear 4 days from now."

God, how I dread leaving the house throughout the month of December. It's just nuts. Traffic and people everywhere.

Dave Long:
"Compared to PS2 last year, with its horrible lineup of launch games, Xbox is a bust for launch day. They should have been cleaned out by now."

Does anyone find this ironic? Sony fails to ship enough PS2s for launch, and people complain. Microsoft ships plenty of Xboxes for launch, and people complain.

And let's not forget that, unlike last year, most families with any sort of economic responsibility are saying, "Hmm. Economy's slowing down, unemployment's the highest it's been for nearly thirty years, and staffing's being slashed in nearly every job sector. Hey, I know--to hell with the mortgage and food! Let's spend upwards of five hundred bucks on a toy!"

Might have something to do with it. ;) Not that I'm an apologist by any means, but Context Is Good�.

"But the bottom line is that on Friday/Saturday, we should have heard people crying out in pain from not being able to get one. That isn't the case."

Not at that price point in the current economic setting, no. If Xbox'd come out unbundled at 299, then yeah, there might have been a lot more complaining.

We'll see.

Correction: I should have said PS2 JAPANESE sales, which was almost a million units. In the US, it sold out its wonky first shipment, which was a little over 350K units, although demand remained high for three months afterward, with each subsequent shipment selling out until mid-January. The Gamecube, apparently, did about the same here - very nice for Nintendo, especially after the disastrous Japanese launch. We'll see how it does over the next couple months.

If anyone cares, Wave Race is an utterly ace racing title.

*sigh* Barnes and Noble has NOTHING to do with Electronics Boutique (EB) and EBX. B&N is the parent company of Funcoland and the Babbages, Etc. chain.

Electronics Boutique is an entirely different and separate entity operating on their own. They are traded under the ticker symbol ELBO on Wall Street. They own stores in the US, Canada, the Far East, the UK and have recently purchased a French game store chain that operates stores all over Europe. They are not affiliated with anything but their own brands, EB, EBX and Stop and Save Software. They used to own the Waldensoftware chain also but I think those have all been converted to EBs or sold. EB tried to buy Funcoland but was outbid (or had the deal nullified and then the chain stolen) by Barnes and Noble. They are competitors.

--Dave

Sorry Bill. I disagree. I'm sure Microsoft fully expected a sell-out. Consumer perception will be one of "failure" given that PS2 sold 500,000 in one weekend and was almost impossible to get through the holiday season.

If they can only move 200,000 when it's at its hottest, what does that say for the life of the system given two competitors, one with a year head start and installed base of 10 million worldwide, and another that doubled the sales of Xbox in the same weekend (one day actually)?

The economy is likely preventing some discretionary spending. However, gamers have been known for their early adoption rates no matter what the fiscal times. This launch will be viewed as a failure. There is no doubt about that. That's not to say things won't improve and the Xbox won't go on to be number two (not very likely to be number one), but there is a definite stigma attached to being the third best-selling console of three that launch in a generation.

--Dave

"Not that I'm an apologist by any means, but Context Is Good�."

Here, here Bill. Context is necessary. Sony had other advantages aside from absurd consumer spending trends in 2000. It also was the only new console being launched, so it got all the coverage. Being sold out constantly kept it in the media eye longer than it would have normally been.

Also, and this is a factor that cuts both ways, The Gamecube and Xbox are undercutting each other's sales right now.

-Andrew

Does anyone else think that Yoda is a bit defensive of the Xbox?

A bit more than even the usual fanboy?

I wouldn't exactly say the Xbox and Gamecube are undercutting each other's sales right now.

Anyone who I've talked to, casual or hardcore gamer, has either been on one side or the other from the get-go.

You have the Nintendo fans who never would buy an Xbox, you have the Xbox fans who would never buy a Gamecube, etc. etc. etc.

If I remember right, this isn't the first time that two or more consoles have come out at the same time, so why should any outside circumstances matter?

You can sit here and blaim the economy for the lackluster Xbox sales, but if you use that, then by the same token, you should have lackluster Gamecube sales, yes?

It amazes me what fanboys say sometimes.

"Does anyone else think that Yoda is a bit defensive of the Xbox?"

Actually, my Gamecube bundle is waiting for me at home. (yes!) I'm not planning to get an XBox. If Dave said the Gamecube was a failure I would have been as demanding of proof. I'm just sick of all the Internet crap.

To be frank, the only XBox game that interests me right now is Halo.

"It amazes me what fanboys say sometimes."

You have a low threshold for amazement. If me telling Dave that you can't decide that the XBox launch is a "bust" after 3 business days is fanboy sentiment, then you need to spend some time at cube.ign.com or xbox.ign.com.

As I said above, I bought a Gamecube and not an XBox. Truth is I was bummed by all the XBox hoopla last week -- not because it existed, really, but because there seemed to be so much more than there was for the Gamecube. At Software Etc. there wasn't even a Gamecube set up to play, and the little Gamecube section had two empty game boxes and nothing else. If an uninformed parent walked in and saw the XBox section and the Gamecube section last Wednesday, I wonder which one he would have pre-ordered?

"Anyone who I've talked to, casual or hardcore gamer, has either been on one side or the other from the get-go."

Of course. Only scary people will buy both. I'm just saying you can't really compare these two launches to the single day Dreamcast or PS2 launch weekends. You can't. I mean, there's an alternative on the shelf, for one thing. And, yes, the economy is a huge factor. A hell of a lot of tech people are currently laid off right now. Do you really discount that effect? Not all video game fans, even early adopters, are that fiscally irresponsible and "fanboyish." The PS2, incidentally, got a further boost because most people in the know figured the Dreamcast was doomed. Last year if you NEEDED a next gen console you had to buy a PS2. Oh, there's that DVD thing. A novelty at the time. The Cube and Xbox don't look as good to someone who already has a PS2 right now.

So, of course they're undercutting each other. Remove the Nintendo from the equation you'd sell more Xbox consoles and vice-versa. Yeah, yeah, brand loyalty and all that, surely a factor, but not one as widespread as you think.

If the only console is an Xbox... people are going to abandon their anti-MS stance pretty quick. Same with the anti-kiddie Nintendo contigent. Both are idiots so far as I'm concerned.

-Andrew

People "quoting" numbers this early are just fanboys that want to slam one system or another. In my town the Xbox sold out fast. By afternoon the only way you got one is if you had a pre-order.

Again all this "bust" talk is lame fanbay trolling..

Ho hum ... another console ... they come and go ... but PC's will always be here.

"Sorry Bill. I disagree. I'm sure Microsoft fully expected a sell-out. Consumer perception will be one of "failure" given that PS2 sold 500,000 in one weekend and was almost impossible to get through the holiday season."

We have conflicting figures here. You say 500k, the gentleman above you says 350k.

"You can sit here and blaim the economy for the lackluster Xbox sales, but if you use that, then by the same token, you should have lackluster Gamecube sales, yes?"

I think $199 will sell better than $299. I'm not sure the public understands or appreciates the hard drive and ethernet stuff. They just see pretty pictures and button mashing!

"but PC's will always be here."

Right, like people don't have to update their systems every 3 years to play the latest games? Have you tried to play Aliens v. Predators 2 on that Pentium II 350? :)

Yeah, but I make money with my PC profiency. Factor that into your monetary equation, oh wizened green one.

Like the classic C-64 ad said: how will that high score of five million points in astroblaster look on your resume?

I have my Dad to thank with my fascination with computers. Instead of buying me a new console, he forced me to get a computer instead. Why play games, he said, when you can write them? Hello TI-99/4a! Man, the crazy, nonsensical games I wrote on that thing..

I love how everyone is rationalizing the fact that they didn't sell out and trying to find some kind of explanation so they can avoid saying it was a bust.

Read my lips..."they should have sold out everywhere". Microsoft was likely to expect just that result. They will see this as a problem. Guaranteed. If Gamecube really did outsell the Xbox in one day, that's more fuel on the fire. Is there some kind of PC gaming loyalty to the Xbox that creates some kind of opposite fanboyism? You betcha. Hang out at Evil Avatar for a couple days and you might catch it too.

You folks can blame the economy, blame the price of the Xbox, blame Joe Gamer getting laid off, whatever... They still should have sold out. Quantities were way limited. Sony's number for PS2s shipped on launch day was 500,000. That's the only official number. Rumors from retailers peg it lower, but the records show them selling through 500,000 PS2s in three days.

---

Quote:

If an uninformed parent walked in and saw the XBox section and the Gamecube section last Wednesday, I wonder which one he would have pre-ordered?

---

"Yeah, but I make money with my PC profiency. Factor that into your monetary equation, oh wizened green one."

What does that have to do with anything? When did I say that money spent updating was wasted? When did I say updating was wrong? When did we start evaluating game systems on the amount of revenue they generate for us?

My point was, very simply, that to pretend that we all have this magical "PC" sitting on our desks outlasting generations of consoles is silly. "My PC" today is different from "My PC" two years ago. Six months ago, actually.

I can't believe someone mentioned the TI. My first computer! (Sob.) Parsec! Munchman! I was such a geek!

"I love how everyone is rationalizing the fact that they didn't sell out and trying to find some kind of explanation so they can avoid saying it was a bust."

Sigh ... (<--pulling a Dave Long here and sighing at someone's unbearable stupidity)) Dave, I'm not rationalizing anything. I'm saying only that your statement that XBox didn't sell well is premature and, at this point, based on nothing but Internet posts of 12-year-old trolls and fanboys ...

This is all anecdotal evidence. If I wanted to determine the success of the Gamecube launch based on local performance, I'd say it was a disaster. EB opened at midnight to sell them on Saturday, and there were about 9 people there, including myself (and I didn't buy one). Compare that to the Dreamcast midnight launch, which attracted a crowd of over 50.

But that's hardly indicative of how the Gamecube performed at any retailer other than my local EB (where, by contrast, the Xbox sold out on its first day... although they won't say how many units they got).

Two things to keep in mind: How important is launch day? Dreamcast had a great launch, and you can see how far it took them. PlayStation 2's launch was hamstrung by serious supply problems, and they are doing just fine. And why is selling out immediately a good thing? I mean, I know it's starting to become a de facto standard, but in a strictly business sense, not meeeting demand is a Bad Thing.

We really won't know how successful any of the launches have been until after Christmas.

Did I just hear the Dreamcast's Last Surviving Fanboy talking about not "backing a losing horse"? Surely not. Surely my imagination!

"We really won't know how successful any of the launches have been until after Christmas."

Thank you, voice of reason. Finally!

Lemme back off for a second and say that all my above ranting has nothing to do with the quality of the Xbox or the games. I think they have some neat stuff. Stuff I might like to play in fact. But not enough stuff to warrant me spending $500.

I like to look at the bigger picture and IMO, that isn't so rosy for Xbox.

---

Quote:

Sigh ... (<--pulling a Dave Long here and sighing at someone's unbearable stupidity)) Dave, I'm not rationalizing anything. I'm saying only that your statement that XBox didn't sell well is premature and, at this point, based on nothing but Internet posts of 12-year-old trolls and fanboys ...

---

You're being premature by estimating nationwide sales by the performance at ONE LOCAL EB. :)

Okay, going home to play my new Gamecube -- an utter failure of a system since there were two left at Dave's local Best Buy!

---

Quote:

Did I just hear the Dreamcast's Last Surviving Fanboy talking about not "backing a losing horse"? Surely not. Surely my imagination!

---

Oops, my bad - B&N owns Gamestop (Babbage's, Etc, FuckNoLand) and NOT the EB franchises. Even sadder is that my wife works for B&N, and could've told me that had I bothered to ask. :)

I love fanboi system fights. C-64 vs. Apple ][, Atari ST vs. Amiga, PC vs. Mac, Intellivision vs. Colecovision, it's always great fun.

Let's get ready to ruuuuuummmmmble! (echo effect kick in) Welcome to Pocket Protector Smackdown IX!

"Why do I go on about this?"

I don't buy the answer above. I think you're just insane in the membrane.

Insane is the amount of time I put into Motor City Online only to determine that it's one big mess. The review gets written tonight.

--Dave

I wonder if MS really cares about the launch. What's their long term strategy for the xbox? New hardware every 18 months? Will MS will have every developer on earth on board in one year?

I'm thinking about picking up an xbox, if only because it'll be neat to run freebsd on after it's too old for games.

The circulars in this week's sunday paper all featured covers and multipage spreads on the cube. The one from circuit city listed a few xbox games, but nada in the others.

"Stuff I might like to play in fact. But not enough stuff to warrant me spending $500."

Why would you spend $500? I bought an Xbox and two games for $400, plus tax. No need for a memory card--the hard drive works just fine. You may or may not want a second controller.

[personal opinion follows; your tastes may vary]
The Gamecube would be cheaper, of course, but there are even fewer games coming out this year on that platform that I am interested in. Currently, Super Monkey Ball is about it, and while it's a lot of fun, it's not something I'd buy a system for. I found Rogue Leader to be rather disappointing--it looks really neat, and makes for great demos, but it's a pretty dull game--basically a Rogue Squadron retread, complete with somewhat clumsy control and no AI (enemy ships and such simply fly around on predetermined paths--you can even learn their patterns). It's all right, but again, not a system seller for me.

Pikmin looks promising.

Still, I don't find the lineup particularly impressive. The Gamecube certainly lacks a killer app like Halo, which is a system-selling game of Soul Calibur proportions, at least for me.

"My point was, very simply, that to pretend that we all have this magical "PC" sitting on our desks outlasting generations of consoles is silly. "My PC" today is different from "My PC" two years ago. Six months ago, actually."

Well, the PC isn't merely a gaming system, so the comparison itself is flawed. PCs are tools for both content creation and content consumption.

"I can't believe someone mentioned the TI. My first computer! (Sob.) Parsec! Munchman! I was such a geek!"

Parsec rocked. Wave after wave of identical ships in slightly different colors, presented in a sidescrolling Defender style. And Munchman! The power pills were little TI 99/4a logos. If you got to a high enough level the monsters were invisible (!). And even.. Hunt The Wumpus.

'PCs are tools for both content creation and content consumption.'

Well, that's.....an interesting statement.

Dave Long:

"Consumer perception will be one of "failure" given that PS2 sold 500,000 in one weekend and was almost impossible to get through the holiday season."

Consumers don't care much about sell-in, sell-through, or sales figures. Consumer perception of popularity/success is based on two simple questions:

1. Can I get one if I drive to the store right now?
2. How much does it cost?

My mother, buying a system for my nephew (and her first grandchild; man, you wanna talk about that kid is SPOILED), doesn't care how many units are shipped or sold. She doesn't care about pre-launch hype and madness. She cares about two things, and two things only:

1. Where can I get one?
2. How much does it cost?

Gamecube is $199, extras optional, from a company she knows makes these things (Nintendo) and has known about for nearly twenty years--and that is strongly associated with kids' games like Mario and whatnot. Xbox is $299, but you need to buy it bundled--driving the price up--from a company she's seen in the papers gettin sued by the government.

You don't have to be an economist to know which way this is going to go, do you?

"If they can only move 200,000 when it's at its hottest, what does that say for the life of the system given two competitors, one with a year head start and installed base of 10 million worldwide, and another that doubled the sales of Xbox in the same weekend (one day actually)?"

If you're a pundit, it says much. If you're a pundit, you'd also say--three days post-launch--that the Dreamcast had an easy four-year lifespan based on its initial sales coupled with the quality of games over the first six months.

But I'm sure everyone here foresaw the Dreamcast getting kicked to the curb by Sega. Didn't you?

"This launch will be viewed as a failure."

Perhaps it will. It's a bit early to tell, don't you think? Remember, the average lifespan of a console is four years. Years. Not days.

Met_K:

"If I remember right, this isn't the first time that two or more consoles have come out at the same time, so why should any outside circumstances matter?"

This is the first time ever that two full console systems have launched in such proximity. Now, console launches have been accompanied in the past by "special deals" from competing systems to keep interest high, but there has never been a time in the console market where two full systems launched within even a month of one another. FYI. :)

Dave again:

"I love how everyone is rationalizing the fact that they didn't sell out and trying to find some kind of explanation so they can avoid saying it was a bust."

I'm not saying it's a bust or a boom. I'm saying it's too early to call. It's like picking a winner right after the announcer bellows, "AND THEY'RE OFF!" Come back in February and we'll look at some sales figures and sell-through, and the upcoming games and promotions.

"It was already clear then that the economy was in the tank, yet everyone still fully expected Xbox to sell out including me."

I didn't. Just so you know.

"Insane is the amount of time I put into Motor City Online only to determine that it's one big mess."

One thing about EA.com: They're certainly consistent, if nothing else.

Fuck Microsoft.

Microsoft doesn't really care how many Xbox's they sell or even if they make any money on it.

Like every other part of the market they simple want to dominate with their name brand simply because they can. Their out to destroy every other developer on this planet !

They are run by a bunch of Communist Fascist Pinko University Hippy Dropouts !

Kill The Microsoft Menace Before It Is Too Late !

Let's simplify things. Economy aside, the fact of the matter is that the demand for the Xbox is far lower than the demand for the PS2 was at its launch. This is "bad" for Microsoft. Sony already has a 20+ million unit head start and the Xbox is already selling slower? Whether or not we're going to call the launch a failure, we already know it didn't go as well as we can assume MS expected.

Brad Grenz

Quote: "Fuck Microsoft.
Microsoft doesn't really care how many Xbox's they sell or even if they make any money on it.
Like every other part of the market they simple want to dominate with their name brand simply because they can. Their out to destroy every other developer on this planet !
They are run by a bunch of Communist Fascist Pinko University Hippy Dropouts !
Kill The Microsoft Menace Before It Is Too Late ! "

I'm convinced that Bill Gates hangs out at Qt3 just like Brian Reynolds and that dork who runs the Canadian video store. Come on Bill, defend Microsoft from this heathen!

"This is "bad" for Microsoft. Sony already has a 20+ million unit head start and the Xbox is already selling slower? Whether or not we're going to call the launch a failure, we already know it didn't go as well as we can assume MS expected."

I have no idea how the Xbox or Gamecube did, but launching on Harry Potter weekend wasn't a good idea as far as getting media attention goes. That couldn't have worked out better for Sony.

It does seem like neither the Xbox or Gamecube has generated the kind of launch excitement that the DC and PS2 did.

To Rob:

Friend, I wipe my ass with hundred dollar bills. Do you really think I care all that much about the random meanderings of any message board ever created? If I don't worry about Slashdot, I'm certainly not going to worry about this.

By the way, did I mention yet that I wipe my ass with hundred dollar bills? I would have used thousands, but the Treasury stopped printing those. Pity.

Guess I'll go back to counting my money now. You folks be good, and don't forget to buy an Xbox. You might as well get it out of the way before the New Order arrives.

Okay, let's assume for a sec that Dave's right: Microsoft screwed the porch on the Xbox launch. Big time -- they blew it.

So what? If that's true, they'll put another twenty gazillion dollars into it next year. And forty the year after that. They're not looking for immediate number-1-ism. They're in it for the long haul. And nobody in the world can afford to lose money for years more so than Microsoft, and the result is that in two years, more people will be hearing the name Xbox 2 than PS3, because Microsoft has the most money. Right?

I don't care either way. I'm just saying the fact that MS screwed up on the Xbox launch won't make so much as a flake of difference in the grand scheme of things. They didn't expect to dominate from day 1, I think. They're smarter than that -- they know they have to win people over gradually. But Microsoft can do gradual, because they have more money than they could ever need. I think.

But taking over the console market is no small task, so maybe even they don't have enough money. But the launch is NOT the determining factor in this game.

>featured sellouts within the first weekend of MORE product (500000 PS2s, similar numbers of Dreamcast), this launch is a bust.

I don't buy Sony's PS2 launch numbers at all. I think they sold to the stores that many, but not sold THROUGH to customers. Every single retailer I've ever spoken to or heard from says they got a fraction of their total allocation on launch day, and believe Sony's launch day numbers are half of what they claim (some say less). My own experience jibes with that - I was like 50 on a preorder list, and it took me like 6 weeks to get a system.

Both my local Babbages and EB got shipments of 200 Dreamcasts or so on launch day, and sold 'em all by the end of the day. It's more than Xbox or Gamecube, and far more than PS2. Again, that's not the whole nation, but whatever.

BTW - do launch numbers even matter? Dreamcast totally shattered all launch day records when it was released, doing some 500k or so units. And the system ran out of steam at 5 million worldwide.

I've heard from several places that some stores have already gotten a second shipment of Xboxes (this was as of Saturday). I haven't confirmed this first-hand, so take it as you will.

I'll be far more interested to see how many systems actually sold through to consumers by the end of the calendar year, myself. I don't put much faith in first-day numbers.

Looking at launch day numbers is like looking at 10K marathon and trying to pick who will win after the first 100 yards.

Can we please, for the love of God, stop screwing the porch?

Homer : Hmm, I wonder why he's so eager to go to the garage.
Moe : The "garage"? Hey fellas, the "garage". Well ooh la dee da, Mr. Frenchman.
Homer : Well what do you call it?
Moe : A car hole!

Bill Gates wrote:

"By the way, did I mention yet that I wipe my ass with hundred dollar bills?"

Can I have those when you're done with them?

>>I bought an Xbox and two games for $400, plus tax. No need for a memory card--the hard drive works just fine. You may or may not want a second controller.

That seems really expensive. So with a memory card and a second controller (why bother with a console if you're not into multiplayer around the TV?) you're spending over $500? That's $800 Canadian -- you could have a p3 1 ghz or a top of the line Athlon for that.

Stefan

Yeah, that's my deal. IF I had that kinda money to completely blow on toys (sorry guys), then I'd put it toward my PC -- I could do a lot (like, completely re-fashion, pretty much) my PC for the money I'd spend on an Xbox, and consider it much better spent. All the good games will be ported to PC, anyway...

The Xbox is $299, games are $50 a pop. It all works out.

For what it's worth, the view out here is that both consoles are doing well -- sellouts at all the places I've seen.

Oh, and Dave Long is starting to resemble Cleve Blakemore on an anti-MS kick. Scary.

The end of this discussion:
http://www.brunching.com/features/consolefaqk.html

"How do the consoles differ from each other?

Unlike previous generations where the differences were simple and easy to articulate, such as "Mortal Kombat on the Genesis gots more blood," the differences among these machines involve pushing polygons, bump mapping, and other phrases that sound like excerpts from "Debbie Does Flatland." The actual effect this has on the screen is subtle and often difficult to see, which is why each machine is now bundled with a rabid fan of the system recruited from various discussion boards around the Web. This fan will stand over your shoulder and point out reasons your machine completely rocks over the competition. They will also make disappointed noises and roll their eyes whenever you fail to play the games at optimal efficiency, but that's the price you pay for progress."

'So what? If that's true, they'll put another twenty gazillion dollars into it next year. And forty the year after that. They're not looking for immediate number-1-ism. They're in it for the long haul. And nobody in the world can afford to lose money for years more so than Microsoft, and the result is that in two years, more people will be hearing the name Xbox 2 than PS3, because Microsoft has the most money. Right?'

Yes, Sony is obviously the scrappy underdog that we should all root for here. Sony is our corporate friend! They only have a 43.5 billion market capitalization compared to Microsoft's 358 billion. Poor, poor sony, only 10% the size of Microsoft and with half the P/E.

All that stuff you here about "you shouldn't support creepy Japanese games" and "Boeing has a 28 billion market capitalization, so Sony's pretty damned big" is propaganda from MSFT's VERY SCARY MONEY PR DEUS EX MACHINA :((((((

I wasn't saying that at all, Jason, and you know it!! :-)

I'm just saying that Microsoft has the money to seep into the market little by little. They don't have to win at launch to win long-term. That was my point in a nutshell.

Jason:
"Yes, Sony is obviously the scrappy underdog that we should all root for here."

Well, they do have the crappiest console currently on the market.

'They don't have to win at launch to win long-term.'

MS can obviously use their incredible cash pile to make the long-term payoff of a share of the console gaming market happen; I'm just tired of the paranoid undercurrent that MS will somehow duplicate its OS monopoly in console gaming. It's not going to happen unless the games MS produces are really *that* much better.

What's bad about monopolies? Increased costs, cruddier products, and the lack of innovation that result from having no competition. MS has no competition in the desktop OS market due to the incredible network effect and barrier to entry. MS doesn't have a monopoly in the web server market, as the network effect is small, as are barriers to entry.

Do you think there's a network effect for consoles? How hard is it to get into the console business? I say only a little, and not hard at all. MS isn't going to be able to drive everyone else out of the game, as the market just doesn't led itself to that. We're not going to be playing crappy MS games in 10 years because that's the only console gaming option available.

If you interpreted what I said as that, you missed. I'm not one of those preaching "Down with the MS monopoly" at all. I like Microsoft. They've done a lot for the PC's development. I thank them for that. I think the Xbox looks good, and some of the games look really cool. There's a chance that the Xbox (or some generational evolution thereof) could end up in the #1 slot eventually, due in no small part to the huge piles of cash that Microsoft has to throw at it. But you're absolutely right, Jason -- all the money in the world won't matter (much) if they don't produce good games. And I don't think Microsoft will ever -- EVER -- have a monopoly on the console market. Sony doesn't have that luxury now, and the PS and PS2 have succeeded in ways that I don't think any console has ever succeeded. You're right -- it just doesn't work that way.

Again, all I was saying is that the launch is not as important as some people make it out to be. 'Specially for a company in the financial sitation of Microsoft.

Additional disclaimer: I am not making predictions that Microsoft will ever dominate the console maket, either. I think it's possible -- nothing more.

And I'm completely indifferent to the whole situation. I just want lots of great games, with as many as possible on my PC. If I never own another console (which is doubtful, but they're not high priority), my PC will see me through.

Whichever console it's easiest to pirate games on will win. Which means Nintendo's fucked.

Well, actually if you believe Nintendo's press release, they sold about 500,000 consoles this weekend. $100 million divided by $199 ... etc.

Desslock, XBox doesn't need memory cards, it's got an 8GB (believe it or not) hard drive in it already.

"That seems really expensive. So with a memory card and a second controller (why bother with a console if you're not into multiplayer around the TV?)"

It's exactly the same price as the PS2, which is exactly the same price as most of the other console systems at launch time in past years (with one or two exceptions). Less, when you consider that the memory card is truly optional. And yeah, you could get a cheapo computer for $400 (although unless that computer comes with two games of your choice, it would be more fair to compare it to the $299 price of the actual console), but in a year you won't be able to run much on it without some serious upgrading. In fact, since most under-$1000 systems come with crappy video cards, you might not be able to run much on it right now.

"all the money in the world won't matter (much) if they don't produce good games."

More importantly, it won't matter if other developers don't make good games for it. First party support is only part of the formula.

"And I don't think Microsoft will ever -- EVER -- have a monopoly on the console market."

Here I agree. They manage to swing monopolies in markets that value standardization (nearly any computer-related market does), but the console market doesn't. There is room for more than one console system, and there probably always will be.

Microsoft's sachkenntnis is creating network effects and innovating barriers to entry. Es ist nicht wahr?

So have the hax0rs made an Xbox emulator
for the PC yet?

I haven't seen one floating around yet, but
once it arrives (and it will -- geez, they can
already emulate every other platform including
the hardware in my *pinball machine*, I would
think emulating an, er...PC wouldn't be too
hard) won't that pretty much be
the end for the Xbox?

---

Quote:

(and it will -- geez, they can
already emulate every other platform including
the hardware in my *pinball machine*, I would
think emulating an, er...PC wouldn't be too
hard) won't that pretty much be
the end for the Xbox?

---

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/20011120/tc/recession_child_s_play_for_xbox_gamecube_1.html

To those who say the economy has nothing to do with it, you're deluded.

I've lusted for an Xbox for 18 months. But I lost my job last month. Yeah, I got savings and severence and unemployment, but the fact remains that any sort of purchase outside of the basic necessaties (food, rent, electricity), are outrageous luxuries right now.

I actually staked out the local EB the morning of launch, and they still had a 2-3 Xboxes left after the huge launch event the night before (they got rid of about 240 Xboxes opening night). I coulda bought one, but $530 for the bundle (that's with tax) is just too much. There's aboslutely no way you can justify spending that much when you're out of a job. And I'm a huge fanboy, die hard. I was at GDC when Gates announced the Xbox, and I was there every step of the way.

And the fact is, I know I'm not the only one out of a job right now. Unemployemnt is hitting levels we haven't seen in decades. And considering the fact that recovery could be as much as a year away means you're in survival mode, which means you've got to hold out long enough for things to get better.

That said, I hate the bundles. If I could, I would have just bought an Xbox seperate from the bundle, because 1. I don't need a seperate controller right now and 2. I can get my games off my buddies who all are in the industry. And $300 is a lot more palatable than $500, but no one is selling Xboxes seperately, and those few who are doing so are all out of stock for a while.

RE: Microsoft being able to keep throwing money into the X-Box until it's successful:

The problem is, consoles don't sell themselves, it's the games that do it. If the X-Box isn't a major force by next Summer, developers will start jumping ship. Look at it from a developer perspective: do I make a game for the PS2 which has 10+ million consoles in circulation or do I go with the X-Box and have less than 1 million max customers? Unless Microsoft is willing to support all of these "exclusive" developers they have wrapped up through the life of the console, the system will start feeding on itself. Less customers means less game. Less games means less incentive for folks to by a new X-Box.

The PS2 had the enormous advantage of being first. People were hungry for a new console and they rushed into the waiting arms of Sony. Sure, the PS2 is inferior to the X-Box and probably to the Gamecube, who cares? People already bought the system, and most of those people aren't willing to spend another $500+ to get yet another next generation console. Developers know more people own PS2s right now, so they make games for the PS2. To do otherwise is to mortage your future on the chance that Microsoft can wedge itself into the console market.

I love my Dreamcast. And I think it feels the same way about me.

Amanpour

"But I will give you your second point: Bleem certainly killed the PSX."

Err.. was that sarcasm? The PSone was the best selling console last year, it outsold the PS2, for god's sake.

'I like Microsoft. They've done a lot for the PC's development.'

Whoops, wrong guy.

This CNet article has some sales data on the 2 consoles. It looks like XBox sold out more places than Gamecube because MS shipped a lot fewer then Nintendo did.

"Bleem certainly killed the PSX."

Hey, I never said that. It's not true in the least.
The PSX was affordable, portable and had
lots of games. The Xbox, however, is really
just a PC with few exclusive games (as of yet).
Once someone makes it easy to play those
Xbox games on your PC, why do you need an
Xbox?

Bleem filed Chapter 11 recently, anyway. I
never saw the sense in their trying to make
what was basically a hack into a commercial
boxed product.

"Hell, there's still no Saturn emulator. "

Actually, there are a few.

Anyone check out firingsquad? They have an article from CNET about this weekends consoles and how much they sold. They report that:

"A Goldman Sachs survey of U.S. retailers found that 73 percent had already sold out of Microsoft's Xbox and that 47 percent were sold out of Nintendo's GameCube, less than a week after the two systems were released."

"The survey was conducted among 49 retail chain stores in large cities. The report speculated that the difference in inventory levels could be traced back to the amount of consoles the stores initially received. Microsoft was estimated to have shipped 300,000 Xbox units, and Nintendo is estimated to have shipped more than twice as many GameCube consoles, about 700,000."

It seems to me that 73 percent from 300,000 would be 220,000-240,000. Is that bad for a weekend launch for the Xbox?

For Nintendo 47 percent from 700,000 would be between 340,000-350,000. Is that a bad weekend for the Nintendo launch?

Hey, Ben -- you sure consoles have routinely launched at $299? Before the PS2, I thought pretty much everything had launched at $199, and the first consoles premiered at $99, didn't they? (I know, the original NES is hardly a good standard...) But didn't N64 and Dreamcast launch at $199 (if not $149)? I can't remember anything that launched at $299 before the PS2...Does my memory really fail me that badly?

Jason, I realize that Microsoft doesn't directly help the PC develop in terms of the hardware itself, but software begets hardware, and vice versa. That's what I meant. You can't honestly tell me that you don't think Microsoft has never had anything to do with developing PCs, can you?

"Anyone check out firingsquad? They have an article from CNET about this weekends consoles and how much they sold. They report that:"

Oh, I hate this sentence. CNet has the article, Firingsquad is merely pointing to it. This sort of thing/wording always bugs the hell out of me.

Anyone check out Andrew's Television? It has this show from HBO called The West Wing...

(No offense intended Benjamin, it's all too common.)

'Jason, I realize that Microsoft doesn't directly help the PC develop in terms of the hardware itself, but software begets hardware, and vice versa. That's what I meant. You can't honestly tell me that you don't think Microsoft has never had anything to do with developing PCs, can you?'

Huh? What? Where am I?

Okay, guess that's a no. Whatever. We'll agree to disagree.

---

Quote:

It seems to me that 73 percent from 300,000 would be 220,000-240,000. Is that bad for a weekend launch for the Xbox?

For Nintendo 47 percent from 700,000 would be between 340,000-350,000. Is that a bad weekend for the Nintendo launch?

---

---

Quote:

Does my memory really fail me that badly?

---

I remember spending upwards of $250-$300 when the Nintendo came out. Of course, I also got the Light Gun and that goddamn R.O.B. thing. Stupid fake robotic operating buddy.

Yeah, NES was marketed as a toy back then. Nintendo believed it was the only way to reintroduce video games to the US public and make them big again. After Atari destroyed gaming's credibility a few years before, it was probably a good move.

I don't recall the exact price of NES on release, but I think Thierry is right that it was $250 or higher and I think it included the light gun, ROB, the system, two controllers and at least two games including Duck Hunt and Mario Bros. with possibly the ROB game Gyromite too? Or was ROB only sold separately? Hmmm...gotta be somewhere to research that.

--Dave

Bingo...I hope my memory never goes...

Classic Gaming NES History

---

Quote:

Nintendo released the NES in two different bundles: one at $249 with the R.O.B. (Robotic Operating Buddy) unit, two controllers, a lightgun, Gyromite (a R.O.B. game), Duck Hunt, and Super Mario Bros., and the other set at $199 with controllers and Super Mario Bros. The NES was a huge success and was soon outselling competing systems (which at the time was only the INTV, the Sega Master System, and the Atari 7800) by a ten-to-one ratio.

---

Yea, I got the $250 bundle. I remember being entranced by the stupid ROB until I realized that there were only two games (Gyromite and Stack-Up) ever made for it. Dumb ones, to boot.

Now that I think about it, I think my family forked over a little over $300, because I added the other Amazing Launch Title known as Ice Climber to the mix. I feel so old-school when I see that Ice Climber is one of the characters in Super Smash Bros. Melee.

Oh, and yes, I got mine in '86 out here in the West. Because while Dave was a freshman in HS, I was busy being SEVEN YEARS OLD.

Where's Jeff Green? I said that just to make him feel old.

"If I could, I would have just bought an Xbox seperate from the bundle"

You can. I did. There is not a sigle store in my area (EB, Babbages, Best Buy, Toys 'R Us) that is selling the Xbox only in bundles. EB and Babbages only took pre-orders in bundles--you can purchase the units on the shelves without buying a bundle, though.

"Hey, Ben -- you sure consoles have routinely launched at $299? Before the PS2, I thought pretty much everything had launched at $199, and the first consoles premiered at $99, didn't they?"

Nope. I don't remember exactly what I paid for my NES, but it sure wasn't $99. At launch, you had to buy it with that stupid robot, and I think the price was more like $250. That was a long time ago, though.

Dreamcast did indeed launch at $199 (I had thought it was $249, but I was mistaken). The BBC had this to say about it, at the time: "This will be the lowest-ever launch price for new games technology and the prices of other consoles are expected to drop."

The Nintendo 64 launched at $249. The PlayStation 1 launched at $299. The Sega Saturn launched at $399. The Neo Geo launched at $650. The 3DO debuted at a whopping $700. Going further back than that is kind of pointless--hardware (and the industry) has changed a lot in the past ten years.

---

Quote:

The Nintendo 64 launched at $249.

---

Hey, look at that, after an hour of reading posts I'm finally at the last one. My fascination with video games began when I was all of four years old. My uncle brought my brother and I this device that he plugged into the tv. I can't remember if it had a real name but it was pong. There where a couple variations of the game you could choose by a switch. This was '78 or '79 (I was four, gimme a break) I was hooked. After that it went like this:

Atari 2600 (my square can beat up your square!)
NES
SNES
Playstation
PC
N64

and to that list I add my most recent from last week: a PS2. Why? Variety. There are more games to play on that system than any other. Sony will always have that over Microsoft and Nintendo (if you count PS1 games anyway).

When Metroid comes out, I'll get a Gamecube. Next year, about this time, I'll probably get an Xbox. Yes, I know Halo is the end all, be all of FPS games. Other than that, there's really no intrest in it for me. As far as the Gamecube goes, I don't think I want my buddies to come over and catch me playing something called "Super Monkey Ball". Luigi's Mansion really isn't really giving me a big gaming erection either.

So I'll spend the next couple o' months trying to divide my time between Devil May Cry, Baldur's Gate:Dark Alliance, Metal Gear 2, and CIV3, Return to Wolfenstein and NeverWinter Nights (when it finally ships) not to mention the countless other games coming out. Remember guys, it's not about the company, it's about the games.

Ahhh... so many games, so little time.

James

"Luigi's Mansion really isn't really giving me a big gaming erection either."

okay, let's purge this kind of talk out of our gaming vocabulary right now. :)

Is Halo the end-all FPS just like Black & White was the end-all God game?

Note the sarcasm. =)

I stopped by Toys R Us today, just to see if any DC games were on sale (Crazy Taxi for nine bucks...Crazy Taxi2 for nineteen...decisions, decisions). There was a kid playing the Xbox demo, a kid playing the Gamecube demo (which looked really cool), and a kid playing the PS2 demo.

Oh yeah, and there were two groups of people each buying Dreamcast systems and accessories (a kid and his friends trying to sort out what the VMU was for, and a family).

Warmed the cockles of my heart.

Amanpour

Cockles? Oh-Kay!!

My bad about launch prices. Can you tell I was a little young then? I remember begging my dad for a Nintendo when I was about seven, and he bought me a Sega Master System instead -- which, in it's defense, was a pretty fine system. Kinda the Dreamcast of it's day, I think -- VERY underrated.

You couldn't have been that young when the Saturn and PSX launched! That was only 5 years ago. I remember their launch prices and I had to beg for my NES too. My sister was staunchly opposed to videogames which made the task that much harder. But when we did get one she ended up being better than any of us at it. My sisters an I used to just watch her play!

Brad Grenz

No, I remember the PSX launch -- don't really remember the Saturn launch, but that probably wasn't an age thing. I was talking about some of the early stuff. Although -- when did Saturn launch? That was quite awhile ago, wasn't it? I mean, until you're about fourteen, there's no real difference between $150 and $500 -- it's all the same, unattainable...

I wonder if the reason behind that stupid NES robot was to capitalize on the then-dominant "Teddy Ruxbin" paradigm. It is kind of funny; only about 3 years elapsed between the Great Videogame Crash of 1983 and the ascendancy of the NES in America, so in the long view it was really just a small blip. The vacuum in between, as I recall, was filled with Teddy, Cabbage Patch Kids, Transformers, and Trivial Pursuit. But for me, the crash never happened -- my family had moved on to the C64 in Xmas 1983 and never looked back. Ironically, just as the first consoles were dying, the golden age of 8-bit computer games was beginning -- Ultimas III and IV, M.U.L.E., Archon, Infocom text adventures, Seven Cities of Gold...

I threw a Teddy Ruxbin out the window of a moving car once. It belonged to by sister's friend. My mom made me look for it all afternoon. I never did figure out where it went. We had to buy a new one to replace it.

Brad Grenz

Sticking Motley Crue tapes into those things was almost worth the purchase price.

>Although -- when did Saturn launch? That was quite awhile ago, wasn't it?

Literally three months before the Playstation. They were supposed to launch at almost the same time, but Sega did a surprise summer launch that even the retailers weren't aware of until a day or two before (and BOY did it piss them off!). They wanted to beat the PSX to the shelves, and as a result didn't have all the launch games they were supposed to.

And for the record, the Saturn outsold the PSX in the first year. As would happen with the Dreamcast, Sega fans ran right out and picked one up, and nobody else did. Playstations didn't start flying off the shelves until the price dropped, and then it just kinda snowballed from there.

Let's not forget inflation.

That $250 NES in 1986 is a whopping $385 and change in 2000 (more this year). Similarly, that $299.99 1995 Saturn is $336 and change more. What year was 3D0? That's be $1000 or more equivalent today.

In context, these console systems are somewhat cheaper than ever before.

I stopped by an electronics store over the weekend and demo'd an XBOX and a Gamecube. I was amazed at the size difference. The XBOX is a bit bigger than my old Atari console (circa 1977 or 1978, I think), while the gamecube looked almost small enough for me to palm it.

I liked the controller for the XBOX better. It felt better, and looked better. It was bigger, but that didn't bother me.

Both systems looked very good on the screen. I played Rogue LEader on Gamecube and some Oddworld game on the XBOX. I wanted to play Halo or DOA3, but didn't get the chance.

They both seem nice. I tended to lean towards the XBOX for ergonomics, but liked the Star Wars game better than the Oddworld game, so can't comment there. Both games looked great, though.

I think the Xbox controller size issue is difficult to judge at a kiosk where the weight of it is completely supported by those rubber arm thingies. Might be a factor after a couple hours of playing strait holding the controller up all by yourself.

But I LOVE the gamecube controller. I think it's amazingly comfortable and intuitive. Small and light too.

This controller thing is utterly and completely a personal choice. Some love 'em, some hate 'em. I don't know why reviewers even bother mentioning it; it's like reviewing the fit of clothes. This shirt FIT ME TERRIBLY! DON'T ANYONE BUY IT!

Isn't that what reviewers are supposed to do? Tell you what they think of everything including the controller itself? Everything a review is revolves around personal preferences supported by facts...

--Dave

I think there is a difference between a T-shirt or game controller that doesn't fit you, and a movie or game that sucks.

Issues of fit have little to do with the quality of the product.

I agree with Mr. Atwood. Controllers are a very personal choice. You can make general comments about he ergonomics or button layout, but as far as overall size, we're all different. Some of us are smaller, some of us are bigger.

Yep. Personally, I find the PS2 controller far too small for my hands. The GameCube controller is better (the longer handgrips help a lot). The Xbox controller is the one I find the most comfortable.

But I can see where someone with smaller hands wouldn't like it as much. I guess it's good that third party companies make variant controllers for all these systems.

Uh...but aren't games a very personal choice too? One man's junk is another man's treasure and all that? Tom Chick dislikes Deus Ex, many others love it...so his opinion is then wrong? Or is it that he never should have given his opinion because it's "a very personal choice"?

C'mon guys, hardware is just as valid for criticism as the software.

--Dave

Some of you must not buy clothes or controllers very often. With both, different body types will benefit from design decisions most, but there are still some basics that can be critiqued. For shirts, are the seams sewn well, how nice is the fabric, what about individual part and overall design (i.e. do you like a straight collar or a button collar? does that collar work for that shirt?), etc. For controllers, the quality of the mechanics (does the control stick move smoothly? do the buttons stick or are they loose?), the durability of the product, and different design decisions (the gamecube put the Z button there? and like that? and the same color as the controller?), etc. The controller is the language through which we'll communicate with many different genres of games. Different controllers speak better to different genres. While some of those enter more into personal taste, they all can be criticised successfully due to more universal expectations of gamers. These are bigger issues than does the controller fit me right.

Jeff Atwood:

"Issues of fit have little to do with the quality of the product."

True, but it's useful information in a review to inform readers they should try out the controllers first to make sure they fit their hands comfortably. Take the X-Box for example. I have small hands and, therefore, find the original controller a little cumbersome. If I decide I want to buy an X-Box I'll want (like most purchasers I assume) to buy a second controller. If I were coming into this uninformed, I might very well appreciate a review that advised me to check out the third party controllers before plunking my money down, because I might find one that's a better fit.

This is simple - just as in a software review, you give your opinion and the basis for your opinion, to allow the reader to make an informed decision. So, if I hate a controller because of size, it's valid to say "the XCube2 controller is much larger than most, with about two inches between the buttons, and is likely to rapidly fatigue the hands of most mortal human beings." So you might dock the rating of a controller for that. But - and this is why people need to read reviews rather than trust 3 nosehairs out of 5 - someone reading that review might say to themselves "finally! A controller with room to roam!"

"They both seem nice. I tended to lean towards the XBOX for ergonomics, but liked the Star Wars game better than the Oddworld game, so can't comment there. Both games looked great, though."

Oddworld's 100% consolish and weird. Halo, though, is a very cool game, and certainly worth renting or borrowing an Xbox to play it.

The controller actually works quite well for it too. I can't aim as quickly and precisely as I could with a mouse/keyboard, but the movement is actually better. Plus the game is forgiving of the slower aiming. It gives you enough time to line up shots by letting you absorb a lot of damage via your replenishing shield and by having the monsters aim with about the same quickness as you do.

"Tom Chick dislikes Deus Ex, many others love it...so his opinion is then wrong?"

Yes. Always.

;)

""Tom Chick dislikes Deus Ex, many others love it...so his opinion is then wrong?"

Yes. Always. "

Geez, coal for you guys this year.

"Tom Chick dislikes Deus Ex, many others love it...so his opinion is then wrong?"

That's just what they want you to think! It's all a big conspiracy, I tell you. ;)

- Alan

Well, if it didn't sell out it still seems to be doing pretty well despite the economy and other factors mentioned here. Some sales data from iemag.com:

---

Quote:

According to sales figures accumulated by the NPD Group Inc., the Xbox from Microsoft �had the best-selling videogame console launch on record after two weeks.� The group is also reporting that for every Xbox sold, consumers are purchasing 2.4 Xbox games. Both the PlayStation 2 (launched October 26, 2000) and GameCube (launched November 18) only had 1.9 pieces of software sold per unit. NPD added that Microsoft�s Halo beat out Nintendo�s Luigi�s Mansion for GameCube as the best-selling launch title.

---

Sure, but how many of us are holding out for the PC version of Halo? *raises hand* Content is king, and games sell consoles.

Are these numbers about games sold at time of hardware purchase? With all the bundle sales, I'm not sure if those numbers are meaningful.

- Alan

Hell, I'm holding out for the PC version of GTA3.

---

Quote:

Are these numbers about games sold at time of hardware purchase? With all the bundle sales, I'm not sure if those numbers are meaningful.

---

The thing is, there are not solid numbers on the amount of units sold. If Microsoft only shipped 300,000 that first day as was suspected, then that's only 720,000 software units. If Nintendo really did sell through 500,000 units and the Gamecube did 1.9 pieces of software per unit, the resultant software sales are closer to one million units.

I have a feeling that Microsoft pulled out the software to hardware ratio because it was their "winning" number. Well, Dreamcast did 8 to 1 on software to hardware throughout its lifetime. That's the highest software to hardware ratio ever in console game sales. But it doesn't mean much when the console unit sales are so low.

These are public companies. We will eventually know something closer to the truth. That will take more time.

--Dave

Dave,

You're right about the lack of solid figures. The only 3rd party estimate I've seen was 556K for the Xbox and 469K for the Gamecube by 11/24. Evidently though, that lead was due to the extra 3 days the Xbox had and the GC outsold it during the time period that they were both available. I'm not saying that I completely believe those numbers, and in fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if Nintendo has sold more units as of today. But I also don't see any evidence that the Xbox is selling poorly, and the fact that the majority of these units are sold as bundles costing ~$500 indicates to me that there is a huge demand for the system. Again, the fact that the 2.4 figure is due to bundling doesn't change the fact that people are shelling out the bucks for these games.

In the end, the irrelevance of this debate is pretty much wrapped up in this quote:

"Both of them are selling just about anything that goes into the channel," said Mike Wallace, an analyst at UBS Warburg. "Who sells more in a particular week is pretty much irrelevant."

On an odd side note, I was at BJ's Wholesale Club tonight to get all the BIG BOX family food crap we get about twice a week and they had these bundles of Xbox, PS2 or GameBoy Color that looked like they had been made up by the respective companies.

They were packaged in a blister pack. Here's what each contained...

PS2 Pack was a Playstation2 console, extra controller, memory card and Gran Turismo 3. The price was $399.99.

Xbox Pack was an Xbox, extra controller, Munch's Oddysee and NFL Fever 2002 for $419.99. (I think...the price might be off a bit.)

GameBoy Color pack was a Pokemon thingy with a GBC and the Pokemon Trading Card game with carrying case or something.

Anyway...the console packs were definitely different. I've seen some wacky stuff at BJ's before, but that was a first. Now figure that Microsoft calls that a 2 to 1 ratio and the bundling really does account for their games to hardware sales. What really matters is how many consoles they've really shipped and sold. We'll probably have to wait until at least the end of their fiscal quarter and maybe even the year to know that fact.

There were three Xbox bundles and about five PS2 ones.

I like BJ's...we lucked into a two pack with Dirt Track Racing and DeathTrack Racing shrinked together for $14.99. Since those were lost in my great games off the roof of the car exodus, my wife let my son and I snatch that up. DeathTrack Racing (Rollcage Stage II) is a pretty damn fine game and my son loves it.

--Dave

Looks like Sony's kicking ass.

"According to SCEA's internal sales data, there were more than 317,000 PlayStation 2 units and 100,000 PS one consoles sold through to consumers during the week of November 19, with PS2 sales being up 62% from the previous week. Meanwhile, during the week of November 26, there were more than 321,00 PS2 units and 100,000 PS one units sold.

"These latest sales findings brings the life-to-date installed base of the PS2 in North America to more than 6 million units since its October 26, 2000 debut."

That's from a Sony press release. It looks like after the initial spurt of Xbox and Gamecube sales the PS2 is outselling the new consoles. I guess that's not surprising given the vastly superior library of available PS2 games.

The Xbox is a nice system, but they need more "must have" games. I think Halo's great, but I wonder if it's even a game that appeals to the typical console fan?

The Gamecube I don't have and won't have, so I can't really comment on it.

The lastest on X-Box sales. Note: The figures are all from Microsoft.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/670240.asp?0dm=C12OT

Xbox units shipped, not sales. There's a huge difference. I think the numbers are suspect too...they claimed they could only ship 300,000 on launch day and were capable of 100,000 each week after that...so how have they shipped 1.1 million already?

I'd like to see some hard facts and I doubt we're going to get them.

--Dave

For no reason at all, I want to follow up on an observation I made earlier-- that Xbox has a sort of zeitgeist momentum.

Well, Xbox is featured in the latest Target ad. The one with the people dressed in all red, against a red background, dancing around with various random "hip" and "cool" items sold at Target. One of those items happens to be an Xbox. Thus it is.. hip and cool.

And Target ads suck as much as any I've seen. They're trying so hard...But I don't want ANY console to get the bulk of its publicity from Target. (Not that I'm saying it is.)

I wonder where they get those *perfectly* ethnically balanced actor sets. Is there some casting company that sells them in demographic lots?

Aren't those the ads that use Devo's "It's a Beautiful World" song without getting the irony and bitterness of it all? "Beautiful people everywhere. The way they show they care. Makes me want to say. It's a beautiful world. It's a beautiful world. (For you. For you. Not me.)"

Doesn't it seem like there isn't much enthusiasm for the next gen systems? Really, I don't think the PS2, DC, Gamecube, or Xbox has generated the kind of excitement that the PSX and N64 did.

PS2 certainly generated a lot of excitement. It was virtually unavailable through the holidays last year and into March. It's still selling well. It generated so much excitement for about two years before its release and one year after it that Sony ran another company right out of the console business by giving a bunch of promises.

The PS2 launch was ridiculous and super-successful all at the same time.

--Dave

I'm pretty excited about the Gamecube, but don't have the resources to do anything about it. OTOH, I'm more excited about upgrading my computer. If someone gave me a GC, I'd enjoy it immensely.

I disagree mark. The PSX took a year to sell 1 million units in the US. The PS2 has sold 5 million in that time and both the Xbox & GC are likely to beat that as well.