Sorry, the other thread was getting just way too damn big.

I finally got around to seeing "You Can Count On Me", and "The Gift".

"You Can Count On Me" is, hands down, one of the best movies I've seen in years. It makes Erin Brockovich look like the hokey, overstuffed star vehicle it really was. _This_ is realism. This is utter honesty. And the title phrase was never spoken out loud once during the entire damn thing. That's the kind of gentle, subtle movie it was. I can't recommend it highly enough. If you haven't seen it, what are you waiting for?

"The Gift". Brilliant, brilliant casting. Keanu Reeves as a vicious, stupid redneck? Cate Blanchett as a poor white Louisiana psychic? Giovanni Ribisi as a dimwitted mechanic with a dark past? The boss from Office Space as the smarmy DA? We ought to create a nobel prize in casting just on the basis of this movie. A decent script (cowritten by Billy Bob Thornton?), elevated by outstanding casting and performances to the level of essential thriller.

Yeah the Gift was directed by Sam Raimi... it is the "weirdest" cast I've seen in a movie... though it works well. You forgot to mention Talk Soup guy, Greg Kinnear, and oscar winner Hilary Swank (the girl from Karate Kid 2!!!) and babe Katie Holmes. I don't know how they got a cast like that...its all over the place.

You Can Count On Me I've put on my list... still havent seen it. I like that actress in it, forgot her name, the one in the Clint Eastwood Washinton DC movie that had Gene Hackman as president kill his lover as Eastwood was a thief, and that actress played his daughter... anyway, that was a good movie.

etc

"And the title phrase was never spoken out loud once during the entire damn thing. That's the kind of gentle, subtle movie it was."

Exactly why Hamlet is such a piece of crap. They are constantly saying the title in that movie, and it drives me up the wall. I mean, enough already.

The actress in question is Laura Linney. We love her. The movie with Eastwood and Hackman was Absolute Power. We do not love that movie. (Although the idea that you had in the summary--"Gene Hackman as president kill his lover as Eastwood"--might have been an interesting film.)

Amanpour

"Exactly why Hamlet is such a piece of crap. They are constantly saying the title in that movie, and it drives me up the wall. I mean, enough already."

Which is also why Star Wars rocks planets and Fight Club is a steaming heap.

Actually, wumpus is right about You Can Count on Me, which just lends proof to the adage that even a blind pig can dig up an acorn.

-Tom

Wumpus: "A decent script (cowritten by Billy Bob Thornton?)"

You sound as if this is surprising, but Thornton also wrote One False Move, and that is a great film (in fact, I was disappointed by The Gift for this very reason). It's always saddened me that One False Move's director, Carl Franklin, never made another great film. Though Devil in a Blue Dress, despite some hokey scenes, had one of Don Cheadle's first great roles.

-Ron

"but Thornton also wrote One False Move, and that is a great film"

Good post, Ron, all around.

I loved One False Move. What an opening segment. Thanks for reminding me of that. I'm gonna have to give it another look.

And I love Don Cheadle in Devil... That was the first thing I remember seeing him in, and I became an instant fan. One of the [very, extremely] few pleasures of being subjected to Family Man is seeing Don Cheadle blow Nic Cage away just by sitting there and being quietly cool.

You've got to get the TK-421 enhancement to truly understand what I'm saying here.

Amanpour

---

Quote:

TK-421

---

Murph, that took me way too long to get. Hilarious!

"... largely, very dangerous..."

-Andrew

Sadly, it popped right into my head...Hmmm...

Amanpour: "And I love Don Cheadle in Devil... "

I liked Devil in a Blue Dress for many reasons, but it has some problematic scenes (the "you're hitting my spot" one being the most obvious). But Cheadle more than makes up for it, especially the "don't shoot him" scene. Unbelievable. Denzel is great in that film as well (but woo-wee does that guy need to get someone to pick scripts for him).

I read the book before I saw the film, and I appreciated how Franklin made some of the more tawdry elements of the book less obvious. The pacing and editing of the film is less like a period piece than a film actually made in the 30s.

As for films seen lately, I will say that Kiss of the Dragon should help push along my "Martial Arts Act," which will make it a law that directors aren't allowed to edit fight scenes themselves. Why use someone like Jet Li if you're going to show every punch from three different angles? The standard, legal blueprint will now go something like this:

--Each film must have at least four fight scenes, of no less than ten minutes each.

--Each fight scene will be shot from only two angles, with reaction shots and changes in location being the only approprite cuts.

--Dialogue will only be used to set up set pieces. Example: "Let us now go investigate the ladder factory."

This standard will only apply to American films starring well-known Chinese actors. And all films directed anywhere in the world by Tsui Hark.

-Ron

"Let us now go investigate the ladder factory."

Hehehe. That's "The Funny" right there.

Hrm, kinda sums up Drunken Master pretty well too.

They should, in this age of super-hero movies, do a Green Hornet remake with Jacki Chan as Kato.

"Yeah the Gift was directed by Sam Raimi... it is the "weirdest" cast I've seen in a movie... though it works well. You forgot to mention Talk Soup guy, Greg Kinnear, and oscar winner Hilary Swank (the girl from Karate Kid 2!!!) and babe Katie Holmes. I don't know how they got a cast like that...its all over the place."

True, the cast was an embarassment of riches. I also enjoyed the topless scene at the end with Katie. Heh.

Hey! It's fair! I had to chuckle and shake my head when Cate fell on the paint because I thought of mtkafkas' comments on these boards about her panties. I didn't know what he meant until then.

So, in summary, The Gift has it all: Boobs *and* Panties. There's my Maxim review.

"Exactly why Hamlet is such a piece of crap. They are constantly saying the title in that movie, and it drives me up the wall. I mean, enough already."

It was just ONE small example of the care that went into the movie. You guys need to take some ritalin or something.

"The actress in question is Laura Linney. We love her."

I thought she sucked in the Truman show, and I was very skeptical of her acting in this movie. Despite my bias, the movie won me over big time. Great performances all-around, though I think her "brother" was a little more convincing as an actor.

The only other minor criticism of the movie I have is that the soundtrack was a bit too MTV at times, eg, too loud, and too often taking the focus away from the actors by explaining "in song" how we are supposed to feel at that juncture. Basically, the same way REM's "everybody hurts" is played in each season of Real World. It never fails. Someone will have an argument, feelings get hurt.. and.. queue up the REM song, folks!

Well I'm off to visit a friend for a week in LA... but anyway, I just watched You can Count on Me. It has a lonely feel to it, as the director in the dvd comments says. Its kinda real sad. It also has a stage drama feel to it... sorta like a Death of the Salesman thing. You have the brother who is like Willy Loman's son. There is an amoral center (the director in the comments wanted to represent a chaotic universe somewhat...)to the movie.. it has that mood...sorta like the sweet hereafter. meaningless surviving after tragedy. I can understand that blase' existential view of the movie.. but sometimes its kinda heartless.. though im looking too deep into it. The drifter brother was kind of an asshole, and Matthew Broderick an idiot... Laura Linneys character too frigid...it of course was about flawed characters... but it felt .... aye i dont know. Clausterphobic small town... no escape. except laura's other bf, he actally seemed genuine ... he did help her when she was in need.

Laura Linney was in Congo wasnt she? I liked her in that... anyway

good movie, just kinda tired of the "existential" semi realism in indie US movies. there has to be more.

etc

to add, true tragedy, like greek. shakesperean tragedy, gives you full pity... there is usually an epiphany and hope. thats whats lacking in these modernist tragic movies... imo.

"good movie, just kinda tired of the "existential" semi realism in indie US movies. there has to be more."

Nope. Now go see Requiem for a Dream, Ice Storm, Happiness, and Your Friends & Neighbors.

-Tom

yeah i saw those all, im not saying You Can Count on Me was extremely tragic or existential. It just has no center. Its more in the vein of a Checkov play, which isnt bad. But anyway, I'll admit i liked Erin Brockovich more because the people in it seemed "happier", and there was a specific story... without being condescending. You can count on me needed maybe a specific story ... or something... it was just missing something besides being a character study

anyway, You can count on me was still a good movie... better than a lot of movies out there no doubt.

btw, i liked that Laura Linney drove a Subaru Outback! thats what i drive! well sorta, really a legacy wagon!

etc

"to add, true tragedy, like greek. shakesperean tragedy, gives you full pity... there is usually an epiphany and hope. thats whats lacking in these modernist tragic movies... imo."

Wow, you thought "You Can Count On Me" lacked hope? That's totally not what I got out of it. I found the ending bittersweet but also hopeful, in a guarded way. All of the main characters had better insight into themselves ("Why don't you just run the bank?", "I'm going to check in with that girl") as well as each other.

I completely disagree with your interpretation of the movie.

"I thought she sucked in the Truman show, and I was very skeptical of her acting in this movie."

You are on crack.

There will be no more casting of aspersions upon the acting of Laura Linney. I declare a moratorium on that altogether. Now your assignment is to watch Primal Fear and write an essay comparing/contrasting the acting styles of Richard Gere and Laura Linney. As penance. It's due Monday. Get to work.

Thought she sucked in the Truman show. Goofball.

Amanpour

Please, enough -- micropayments, free hardware, I can deal with but ... Laura Linney sucks? Mark, Tom, for the love of God, ban wumpus. For his own good, and ours.

Dave

What are they going to ban him for...having a different opinion than you?

You work for Evil Avatar or something?

--Dave

Ban him for cluster bombing QT3 with such a quantity of non-sensical statements that Joy Behar would be embarrassed.

I work for Fatbabies. I also composed the new theme for OldManMurray. In addition, I was the quality control lead for WW2 Online. In my spare time I am Chet's weekday lover and Erik's masseuse, though often those two duties overlap.

Even if we wanted to, I don't think we could ban anyone on these boards.

After being called a liar, I politely asked wumpus to leave, but it didn't seem to "take". It's easy enough, however, to ignore him. And I have to say, it is kind of amusing watching his strident defense of stuff like micropayments fall apart under scrutiny.

But, hey, anyway, how about that Ghost World? Saw it this weekend and didn't care for it at all. Steve Buscemi's role was great, but I didn't really enjoy an hour and a half of teenage girls sneering at obvious targets like Creeps in Porno Shops and People with Bad Haircuts. Thora Birch, who I really liked in American Beauty, presents slack-jawed indifference, delivered with a monotone and dull stare, as a badge of her teenage angst. Must have been a real stretch coming from her role as some kind of royalty in the Dungeons and Dragons movie.

I also saw Bully, an aggressively low-budget indie movie from Larry Clark, who did Kids and Gummo. There are some really good performances and at its best, it plays like an antidote to all those fun flighty teen versions of the classics (Clueless, Ten Things I Hate about You): it flirts with being MacBeth set in Suburbia's Worst Nightmare, a teen underworld of sex, drugs, and white kids listening to gangsta rap. Yeah, yeah, children are amoral. We all read Lord of the Flies. Hell, we all *were* children.

But Bully gets too gratuitious, too prurient. It sort of wallows in a faux black comedy sensibility that feels too contrived to be dark and too earnest to be funny. It's The River's Edge, except by a Florida glade, minus any authentic edge.

Far better than either movie, in terms of showing teenage angst and the amorality of children, is Todd Solenz' Welcome to the Dollhouse. Even better is this weird Philip Ridley fable of a movie called The Reflecting Skin, that no one but me has even heard of.

Anyone else see anything this weekend? Jurassic Park III may be one of my guilty pleasures this summer. I think William H. Macy is just what every dinosaur movie needs to rescue it from being as bad as The Lost World.

-Tom

Saw Made and was completely entertained. Best movie I've seen in a theater all summer. That's not saying much, but it'd be good even during a decent summer. The things I like best about it are kind of spoilerish, so I'll just say it was funny and leave it at that.

By the way, Larry Clark didn't direct Gummo, that was Harmony Korine's (the writer of Kids) "directing" debut.

Well, Jurassic Park 3 was preeeeeety awful. A pretty funny dino doo joke, and the pterodactyl (sp?) may be the scariest movie dinos yet -- it makes you realize just how unpleasant the world would be for humans if "birds" were still that big and could carry away and devour small obnoxious children. But why you cast Tea Leone and then keep her in a baggy man's shirt for the whole movie is a mystery. And even for a Bad Summer Movie, JP3 is pretty lame in the writing department. (William Macy takes out a checkbook and says, "What's it gonna take?" when faced with a Sam Neil uninterested in returning to the land of the dinos. Whatever.)

"Anyone else see anything this weekend?"

I saw John Carpenter's "The Thing" after a friend who simply couldn't believe I had never seen it showed up with it and insisted that we watch it. I rarely go to the movie theatre -- there's just nothing I want to see, and I think I've lost the ability to be entertained by throwaway films. AI was the last straw. Pretty much all of Werner Herzog's films just came out on DVD, though, so I'm pretty excited.

From the "they have to eat" department:

I just read that Aronofsky has been hired to direct the next Batman film.

"and I think I've lost the ability to be entertained by throwaway films."

I take it that means you didn't like The Thing? What about if the whole movie was edited down to just the scene where they're all tied to chairs getting their blood tested? Then it'd be pretty good, right? If the answer is no, you're a hard, hard man to please.

Also, if your friend tells you how great John Carpenter's They Live is, you should probably skip that. Even though it does have the best fight scene ever! But still, I don't think you're going to like it.

Bruce: Would you really classify "A.I." as a throwaway film?

"I just read that Aronofsky has been hired to direct the next Batman film."

As I mentioned in another thread, this is dead in the water. In interviews, he's pretty cagey about the whole thing and he's made it clear that it's not something he's working on right now. He was supposed to writing a script from Frank Miller, but I don't think either of them has done any work on it yet. I'm predicting talk about this will dwindle and die out over the next year and Warner Brothers will instead go forward with their plans for the more franchise-friendly version of Batman from the guy who directed Remember the Titans.

I recall someone (Newsweek review of Requiem for a Dream?) proclaiming that an Aronofsky-directed Batman could be "the revitalization of mainstream cinema". While that's awfully effusive, I had the same basic level of enthusiasm.

-Tom

Have you ever seen a "classic" and not liked it. Then felt sort of bad, like you were a philistine or some sort of moron? I'm not saying either of the two films listed below are BAD films. Just that I didn't LIKE them for some reason. Sort of like Spartacus. I hated Spartacus. I really wanted to like Spartacus....

I'm not talking about The Thing here, or anything by Carpenter. (Though Erik is hilariously right in both his.)

I saw The Searchers and found it simple, slow, narrow-minded, racist (offensively so - but I grant that it's "of it's time") and rather dumb.

Then I saw Mean Streets... sigh. I admire almost everything about it. Nascent Scorcese, brilliant De Niro, etc., I admired the "reality" of it and agree with Pauline Kael's rather famous review. Except... it hasn't aged well. Keitel is miscast and wooden, the film lurches from scene to scene (I could almost hear the clappers clap between scenes), and many of the best moments are really just Scorcese sort of pioneering the music video for us.

An "important" movie certainly, but one praised more for it's newness and impact. Features it sort of lacks in 2001.

Tonight we rented The Tao of Steve and I got Dungeons and Dragons to help combat the horrific insomnia I've been having lately. The Gift was out, you see. Anyway, wish me luck.

Oh, I didn't like Oh Brother Where Art Thou much at all. Extremely uneven. Hardly the worst of the year (Mr. Gleiberman!!!!) but nowhere near Raising Arizona, Barton Fink, Lubowsky, Blood Simple, Fargo or Miller's Crossing.

-Andrew

PS: I have a theory that Bruce is having us on. He loved The Thing and hates Werner Herzog... he mostly watches Pokemon movies and just adores Pauly Shore.

Right on Erik! They Live has the best fight scene in American cinema. How long does that last? Like 15 minutes I think?! All over a pair of stinking glasses... :) (The scene where she whacks Roddy over the head with a bottle and he rolls down a steep incline is pretty good too.) Another movie that Duke Nukem took a line from, BTW.

I agree though... if Bruce didn't like The Thing, his tastes are far, FAR removed from my own. The chairs... the blood... Windows chewed on like a dog's bone... heh heh. One of Donald Moffat's best lines (first one on the page) in film right after the Junkyard Dog bit in Clear and Present Danger.

--Dave

Well, I bit the bullet and went to see "America's Sweethearts" with my wife. I think the only way you will ever get me to see a Julia Roberts movie is to put John Cusak and Christopher Walken in it.

I went into the theater fully expecting the standard "Julia is pretty!" story. Apart from knowing the ending before the movie started and EXTREME closeups of Ms. Roberts' nostrils, it wasn't that bad. If your significant other is threatening castration because you won't take her out, this movie won't kill you.

"If your significant other is threatening
castration because you won't take her out, this movie won't kill you."

Now THERE's a line I'd love to see on a movie display ad. =)

Went to see JPIII this weekend. It wasn't all that awful. I was actually more disappointed in the sound system at the theatre I saw it in than in the movie. When the T-Rex bellows I want to feel it. All I was getting was distortion at this place.

POSSIBLE SPOILERS BELOW

Something else bothered me about it. Is there some rule that we can watch humans getting eaten and mauled by dinos, but we can't ever see a dino take an RPG down the the throat? I seem to dimly remember some dino killing in The Lost World, but this time around I think some stuff was left on the cutting room floor. We have The Setup showing us The Big Gun In Action, and then it's just forgotten about.

Grrr. After three movies, it's time for a little payback.

And couldn't they think of a better title? Not even Return to Jurassic Park?

What the critics are saying about "America's Sweethearts"

"It's better than castration!"
- Frank Greene, QT3

John T. "Bruce: Would you really classify "A.I." as a throwaway film?"

I'm not Bruce, but I would actually go further than that. It's definitely the worst film - or at least the film with the highest "expense/pretense to bad" ratio - I've seen in the last few years.

And please, no one give me the "if you had kids" line. That may justify the first 15 minutes, but the "I haven't read Pinocchio, but isn't it about a puppet?" storyline was just rambling and incoherent.

There's a great review here, and I agree with most of his criticisms. Major spoilers:
http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=9384

You'll have to cut and paste that link above. Sorry.

I'm with Ron on A.I. No, it isn't a throwaway movie; instead, it's a perfect candidate for defenestration. It brings to mind the famous line from a book review: "This is a book that can't be put down, but should instead be flung forcibly across the room".

If Oscar Wilde didn't say that, he should have.

-Tom

I actually didn't hate The Thing -- I agree with Erik that the blood-test scene was well done. By watching The Thing on basically no notice, I apparently gained the right to respond in kind with a film of my own (stipulation: can't be foreign). I'm choosing Midnight Cowboy.

I didn't mean the "throwaway film" comment in any uppity way, btw. It's just a sad fact. I don't know what happened to me, but at some point I stopped being entertained by a lot of movies. Maybe I hit my head or something. I feel about movies the way I feel about games: I really like them, but 99% of them blow.

As for A.I., I agree with Ron that it is one of the absolutely worst films in recent memory. I saw it with several close friends and no one even remotely liked it. It's a running joke, now. And no, these particular friends don't generally share my taste in films: we used to do a thing called "Rant Night" where we'd all go see some film that everyone was pretty sure I'd hate, and during the ensuing bar crawl I'd rant about how absolutely awful it was until we either passed out or the bars closed. The most memorable one of those followed Judge Dredd. So I've seen my fair share of awful movies. Now I can't even get excited about that.

I'm so glad to see more and more people who thought AI was dreck. Makes me BELEIVE in the gaming community as a force for intellectual betterment in modern society. Anyways...

I am very nervous. I wasn't nervous before, but now I am. Lately, I have been drooling a lot when the Planet of the Apes trailer would come on TV. It takes a lot to get me to drool over a movie. But then someone reminded me of how bad Sleepy Hollow was, and I distinctly remember drooling over the Sleepy Hollow trailers. Then I heard on the radio that there isn't a decent story behind the P of the A, which wouldn't you know it, was primarily Sleepy Hollows problem. Now I am very, very nervous that P of the A is going to suck. Please, someone, tell me it will all be ok, and that this movie could win an Oscar it is so good.

Personally, I think Jurassic was ok. If JP was a 10, and JP II was a 1, then I would put this movie at a 6. I could have used about 6 more people being eaten, and quite a bit better screen writing (which is true of 90% of today's blockbusters).

I think it was John Waters who said he knew a movie had serious intentions if it actually showed someone puking. That's no longer true now that even light comedies starring Crystal Bernard routinely include a scene where someone vomits directly into the camera. A few months ago, I decided the new earmark of cinematic gravity was showing a woman on the toilet. So when twenty minutes into AI, Spielberg trotted out a woman on a toilet, I was like, this movie's no joke. My initial impression was validated when, after coming after the gypsies, the gays, and the Jews, they finally came after the robots.

"This is a book that can't be put down, but should instead be flung forcibly across the room".

I've heard that quote... somewhere. In fact, I used a variation on it myself. "This is the perfect game to give as a gift. A gift for someone you hate."

Here's a quote from Twain re: Last of the Mohicans: "Once you put it down, you can't pick it up again."

-Andrew
PS: I'll second Bruce's Midnight Cowboy reference. Did you know that the guy who wrote "Everybody's talking at me..." for Harry Nillson died last week?

"The most memorable one of those followed Judge Dredd."

Do you sometimes inexplicably shout "I am the law!" for no apparent reason? (As in a deep Stallone-like quality, not raspy a la the Flaming Fist guard from Baldur's Gate)

Funny, one of my buddies goes by "The Law" when he plays on-line. Actually, in college we reserved the 3-5 AM timeslot to watch movies like Judge Dredd and Universal Soldier. We figured we'd be too tired to follow the plot. Unfortunately, we were wrong.

- Alan

Did anyone catch "Taboo" on the Sundance Channel last weekend? It was very late and I didn't see all of it, but it is not very often you see a movie with homosexuality, samaurais, jealousy and murder all in one flick. Not bad for a movie with subtitles.

I am not a Japanese history buff, but the movie indicated that homosexuality was accepted within the samurai culture. The primary problem the samurai leaders had with homosexuality was the jealousy and fighting that could occur between the men. Anyone know if this was true? I have heard that ancient Greeks and Romans (Spartacus was mentioned above) didn't make a big deal of it and am curious if the Japanese culture was similar.

-DavidCPA

My history professor in high school told us that the Greeks and Romans actually encouraged homosexuality within the army, so that you become "extra close" to those that you're fighting along-side, because you're more willing to die defending the ones you love.

"Jurassic Park III may be one of my guilty pleasures this summer."

I just read Anthony Lane's review of it in the New Yorker. Good review. Hey Tom, I didn't even realize this as the credits rolled, but JPIII was written by the guys who did Election. Can you believe that? Kind of cool. I loved that film.

Reflecting Skin...I've heard of that. I have no idea what it's about but I seem to recall seeing it in the video store several times and considering it each time but passing it by. It sort of has a cover that brings to mind "The Cell" for some reason. Not what The Cell is, but what I wish it could have been. Have no idea what I'm talking about.

Wasn't Viggo Mortenson in it?

John T: "and the pterodactyl (sp?) may be the scariest movie dinos yet"

Apparently those weren't pterodactyls. They were pteranodons. (Is it bad that writing all this makes me want to see JPIII again?)

Dean: "but we can't ever see a dino take an RPG down the the throat? "

I'm confused. Why would it be interesting to see a dino take something like Baldur's Gate down the throat?

Sorry.

Amanpour

---

Quote:

Dean: "but we can't ever see a dino take an RPG down the the throat? "

Amanpour: I'm confused. Why would it be interesting to see a dino take something like Baldur's Gate down the throat?

---

I think we don't see dinosaurs killed for the simple reason that if we really did exist alongside dinosaurs, they would fucking kill us. Other than a spare compy (sp?), what do you think you're gonna do to a T-Rex? Hit it with mace?

On A.I.:
I know everyone likes to sound terribly clever when criticizing art ("It ran the full gamut of emotions from A to B," etc., etc.) but I think this relentless hurling of one-liners at movies everyone agrees to hate is basically a circle jerk. It takes real hubris to dismiss the efforts of the hundreds of people who worked on A.I. as a "throwaway film."

I was terribly disappointed in A.I. I came away angry, I shook my head in the car half way home, I whined to my wife for two hours about the omniscient narrator present at the beginning and end of the story, about the stiffness of the first 20 minutes, the cliched cruelty of the little boy, the bizarre/vulgur flesh fair, etc.

But a throwaway movie?

Dreck?

Come on. If you are searching for dreck, go to moviefone.com or blockbuster and it's there. A.I. is a failure but it's a very serious, ambitious failure. I'll take it over Big Daddy or Nutty Professor.

"The biggest bore is the person who is bored by everyone and everything."

"A.I. is a failure but it's a very serious, ambitious failure."

What about AI is ambitious? People say things like this, and I don't know what the Hell they mean. Ambitious how? Technically ambitious? Because Gone in Sixty Seconds was technically ambitious as well - it attempted to be the greatest car chase movie ever. Thematically ambitious? I can't say I know exactly what Spielberg's serious point is, but I think it might be "people are mean to appliances". Granted, he appears passionate about the subject, and I'm sure he hoped the movie would spark a mustardy-greenish ribbon campaign - whatever you call that color that all KitchenAid blenders used to be. But no matter how many unsubtle connections he makes between our ongoing mistreatment of machines and the Holocaust, I'm still on the side of the Humans. In fact, fuck him for even attempting to make me betray my FUCKING SPECIES. If he loves appliances so much, he should marry a refrigerator. A male refrigerator!

As far as your point about it being serious: Again, I don't know what you're talking about. Unless you're talking about the long scientific explanations of how robots work and why the future robots could make zombies, but only for one day, which I'll agree were thought provoking.


"It takes real hubris to dismiss the efforts of the hundreds of people who worked on A.I. as a 'throwaway film.'"

It took hundreds of people working hard for a long time to make "Bio-Dome". Also, are you talking about the kind of hubris it would take TO BUILD A ROBOT BOY?

While we're on the subject robot boys, I wish the movie had further explored the robots' inability to distinguish between the real moon and a balloon with a picture of the moon painted on it. Maybe they lack all depth perception or some other explanation with the words "nanites" and "ionized hydrogen" in it. I think the movie would have been much cooler if the humans had used this weakness against them at the flesh fair. They could have set more Road Runner traps for them, such as making the robots run full speed into a wall with a picture of a tunnel painted on it.

No, I don't mean technically ambitious, though it was that. (All Spielberg movies are, don't you think?) Thematically ambitious? Sure. I find the idea of an artificial child - and the ways in which we would respond to such a thing - fascinating. Also the idea that we might create artificial beings that could experience sorrow. That man would create robots with such narrow, hopeless goals without thinking of the consequences. That humans will perish and leave behind giant metropolitan ghost towns, half submerged. All thematically fascinating to me.

If you want to haul out a column A (movie titles) and column B (ways in which a movie is ambitious) and connect the dots to make someone's point sound absurd, I can't stop you. ("Blade Runner was technically ambitious; Gone with 60 Seconds was technically ambitions; therefore Blade Runner sucks as badly as Gone with 60 Seconds.") But a summary of A.I.'s theme as "people are mean to appliances" is pretty shallow stuff. (To which you are certainly entitled.)

"I wish the movie had further explored the robots' inability to distinguish between the real moon
and a balloon with a picture of the moon painted on it."

By the way, this is funny stuff. No question! However ... if you have to answer to a Higher Authority for this mockery some day, you are FUCKED. But I'm sure you know that already.

"...if you have to answer to a Higher Authority for this mockery some day, you are FUCKED."

John,

In some weird way, that's beautiful. I'm going to print it out and tape it to my computer.

However, I'm going to make a second version that I can alternate with the original, depending on what mood I'm in. It'll be more angry and existential. It'll go like this:

"...if a Higher Authority has to answer to me for this mockery some day, He is FUCKED."

-Tom

RPG - Rocket Propelled Grenade.

"Also the idea that we might create artificial beings that could experience sorrow. That man would create robots with such narrow, hopeless goals without thinking of the consequences."

Did you see Bicentennial Man? Did Robin Williams do it for you? How about Patch Adams?

"It takes real hubris to dismiss the efforts of the hundreds of people who worked on A.I. as a "throwaway film." "

Good to see you don't have the same feelings for wacky comedies. Nothing wrong with dismissing the work of hundreds of people whose only crime was to try and make the world laugh. Meanie.

Chet

"They could have set more Road Runner traps for them, such as making the robots run full speed into a wall with a picture of a tunnel painted on it."

Erik, you owe me an expresso - I did a spit take sipping my expresso and then laughing out loud at this line. Somehow I could see that scene in the movie, with heavy violins playing in the background to indicate the gravity and folly of humanity as the robots destroyed themselve running into the painted tunnel, perhaps revealing "ACME" written on their innards.

Jeff

Chet: Not sure what to say if you have difficulty understanding the difference between Big Daddy, which aspired only to have the best man-urinating-against-brick-wall scene, and A.I., which aspires, at the very least, to be something more.

"It takes real hubris to dismiss the efforts of the hundreds of people who worked on A.I. as a 'throwaway film.'"

But dismissing the efforts of the hundreds of people who worked on The Nutty Professor is ok? Anyway, I hope this isn't leading to the idea that if people try really, really hard, the quality of their work product should be evaluated with that in mind. Because that becomes problematic with people like surgeons as well as people who build bridges and buildings (and songs about food).

If your objection is to sarcasm or mockery in this case because it's inappropriately reverential toward art or something, all I can say is that I've spent so much of my life around people who are overly serious about everything connected with art, that I enjoy when people who obviously have a lot of intelligent criticisms of said "art" engage in some mockery. Mockery is only inappropriate when it's used to hide the lack of intelligent criticism.

"'The biggest bore is the person who is bored by everyone and everything.'"

I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm bored by everything. I'm just bored by bad movies. As far as being bored by "everyone," I don't think I'm bored by people yet. Although I am bored by a good proportion of people in movies who portray robots.

Btw, I think the things in A.I. were actually not robots but androids. Unless they were cyborgs. I can never keep all of that straight.

"Big Daddy, which aspired only to have the best man-urinating-against-brick-wall scene, and A.I., which aspires, at the very least, to be something more."

The difference to me is that A.I. has much farther to fall and thus makes a more unsightly mess when it lands.

While AI certainly isn't the worst movie of the year, it's easily among the most disappointing. And I'd rather see a bad movie than a disappointing one.

(Does that make sense?)

-Tom

Bruce:

No, I don't think we ought to elevate things merely because of effort. I guess my objection is that, in this particular case, the work in question (in my opinion, naturally) is worthy of more serious criticism than labels like "dreck" and "throwaway." I'm certainly not reverant about art, and I'm hardly an "overly serious" fellow. Maybe what I should have said is that it might be nice if we all took half a second or so to pause and think about the process before firing our phasers. I don't like the hit and run style of movie/book/game reviewing I see everywhere, anymore than I like someone saying "you'd 'get' the movie if you only had kids."

"(Does that make sense?)"

Absolutely, Tom, that makes sense, though personally I would rather see a misstep from Jim Jarmusch than a predictably bad Arnold Schwarzenegger movie.

And I'd certainly take a hundred A.I.s over another goddamned Pauly Shore movie.

"Chet: Not sure what to say if you have difficulty understanding the difference between Big Daddy, which aspired only to have the best man-urinating-against-brick-wall scene, and A.I., which aspires, at the very least, to be something more. "

Good to see you can judge intent and effort from a distance. Making a 'serious' movie is no more noble than making a good comedy, and I would argue actually easier. I don't care if the intent of the movie was to cure cancer, if it fails at its theme and to entertain, why would i hold it above a movie that at least delivers on one of those? Nutty Professor made me laugh at times, which I guess I could say the same for AI.

"I don't like the hit and run style of movie/book/game reviewing I see everywhere, anymore than I like someone saying "you'd 'get' the movie if you only had kids." "

You seem to prejudge any movie that is not serious enough and even seem to think that is noble. I guess this makes you superior to those of use who can still laugh at broad comedies.

"The biggest bore is the person who is bored by everyone and everything."

Is that your sig? I am so confused.

Chet

Including the amount of effort, seriousness, and sheer uppityness that went into a film rapidly leads to the short-bus grading system. "Sure, the movie consisted of blurry shots of a guy shooting children all-execution-style, but it's an ambitious statement about.....something."

Isn't "ambitious" just intellectual code for "at least it doesn't have any dinosaurs in it"?

I love how everyone just sort of jumps in and sort of swims in Erik's hilarious wake....

The one thing that I came away from this movie with was the fact that the movie kept trying to make me care more about robots than people... and how it didn't work AT ALL. Therefore, this passage just floored me:

"Granted, he appears passionate about the subject, and I'm sure he hoped the movie would spark a mustardy-greenish ribbon campaign - whatever you call that color that all KitchenAid blenders used to be. But no matter how many unsubtle connections he makes between our ongoing mistreatment of machines and the Holocaust, I'm still on the side of the Humans. In fact, fuck him for even attempting to make me betray my FUCKING SPECIES. If he loves appliances so much, he should marry a refrigerator. A male refrigerator!"

Now, Erik, mind skewering Gladiator for Jason Cross? It's in a thread above. ;>

-Andrew

""Big Daddy, which aspired only to have the best man-urinating-against-brick-wall scene, and A.I., which aspires, at the very least, to be something more."

More than what? Perhaps different is a better word than more. Schindler's List aspired to be something "more." The Deer Hunter aspired to be something "more." A.I. is a sci-fi movie with the trappings of a "message" movie but with no message.

People paid their money to be entertained by Big Daddy (not me, not my kinda movie) and probably were. People paid their money to be entertained by A.I. and, from the feedback I've heard, were not. I wasn't.

The reviewers I've read who gathered something profound from A.I. are the same folks who were awed by Chauncey the Gardner's profundity.

Jeff

Chet:

1. I didn't say anything about not liking Nutty Professor.
2. I didn't say anything about one movie being more noble than another
3. I didn't prejudge anything
4. I didn't say I was superior to anyone
5. I didn't say I can't laugh at "broad comedies"

Any other straw men you want to line up and shoot down? Where do you find the time/energy? Is this why Old Man Murray is quarterly now?

'I didn't even realize this as the credits rolled, but JPIII was written by the guys who did Election.'

Well, IMDB says Alexander Payne (also the director of Election) and Jim Taylor worked on both, so......

I don't get it. I really, really liked Election. Ungh.

"I find the idea of an artificial child - and the ways in which we would respond to such a thing - fascinating."

But wasn't this same ground covered in every third episode of Star Trek, the one where Data gets put on trial again? When your deep thoughts have already been extensively covered by several lowbrow weekly TV series, it's simply popular culture. I see no difference between making a movie about car crashes, where the beef is, or what happens when robots learn to love. This is the type of movie that people who don't watch TV think is profound. It's a cartoon. There's nothing wrong with that, but I don't understand the rush to call AI the "thinking man's summer film." What were you thinking about afterward that you weren't thinking about beforehand? Even stupid people are fully aware that little robot boys who can experience emotional pain would present some issues for society. But not only does the movie not create a credible or very interesting depiction of a world in which these kinds of things exist, it doesn't attempt to answer (or even have a clear viewpoint about) any of the hackneyed questions it raises. Unresolved ambivalence is fine, but you better make sure that you're at least posing some questions that haven't been raised a million times before. Otherwise, what's the point? Well, pure entertainment, like The Nutty Professor.

And the Chris Rock robot. I mean, c'mon. AI gets what it deserves. And Robin Williams. Seriously, now.

"Well, IMDB says Alexander Payne (also the director of Election) and Jim Taylor worked on both, so......"

"I don't get it. I really, really liked Election. Ungh."

What kind of story did they have to work with in JP3? Sometimes the screenwriters and directors can elevate the story--The Godfather--and more often they can't. And besides, just because a writer/director turns out a good movie, doesn't mean the next one will be. Cimino followed "The Deer Hunter" with "Heaven's Gate." That "Requiem for a Dream" was so good, doesn't guarantee that the SF film that Aronofsky is currently working on will be. Although I wouldn't bet against it.

Payne and Taylor had creative control with Election. Jurassic Park III was Payne and Taylor "in search for a payday". There's nothing rally wrong with that (unless you're a snob), because artists tend to use their paydays to create more "not-for-profit" art later.

In other words, they sold out. Which is often a "good" thing. Still, you have to admit. Election is nothing without Witherspoon's wonderful performance.

-Andrew

Sorry, I confused your dismissing movies with not liking them. I confused your belittling of a genre with your not liking it. How stupid of me.


Chet

"Btw, I think the things in A.I. were actually not robots but androids. Unless they were cyborgs. I can never keep all of that straight."

And another thing, fuck Spielberg and his appliance identity politics. I don't care what we're supposed to call them this week - they're robots.

Erik: Argh. I didn't call A.I. "the thinking man's summer film"! All I really said (and I shouldn't have even said that, obviously) was that I didn't think "throwaway" and "dreck" were fair. All of the cricitisms you made in this most recent post ARE totally fair. As I said above, I was very disappointed in the movie as well. AND I THINK NUTTY PROFESSOR IS FREAKING FUNNY GUYS!

"AND I THINK NUTTY PROFESSOR IS FREAKING FUNNY GUYS!"

You really liked the Nutty Professor?

"You really liked the Nutty Professor?"

Pure entertainment. A true broad comedy.

"I laughed out loud."
-- David Manning, Ridgefield Press

"appliance identity politics"

Oh, that's beautiful, Erik. We have an animal rights center here at the law school, and it isn't much of a stretch for me to imagine some of the people who occupy it arguing for "robot rights" or whatever you want to call it.

"Sorry, I confused your dismissing movies with not liking them. I confused your belittling of a genre with your not liking it. How stupid of me."

Chet: Why are you so angry? I can point out the difference between two movies without dismissing them, and I hardly "belittled a genre" ... calm down boy.

I thought geeks were supposed to like robots. What's going on here.

I like robots. I also like my dog. That doesn't mean I think it should have the same legal rights as me.

Bub wrote:

"Election is nothing without Witherspoon's wonderful performance."

Do you just type things without reading them?

Alexander Payne put Election together very neatly, making great use of freeze frames, some snappy editing, and even a rear projection sequence (!). Matthew Broderick turned his typical everyman persona into an inadvertant buffoon. Even Chris Klein, who got his start with Election, was sweetly convincing. It was a great parable about jealousy, power, and falling from grace. To dismiss it as "nothing" without one bravura performance is pretty dopey.

-Tom

Will Wright likes robots, and that guy looks pretty geeky. I'd love his bank account, though. He says in five years that's what he'll be working on -- robots. He'll probably make them change their oil through something that's like urinating, given the emphasis The Sims has on that subject.

About A.I., I haven't seen it. I just have no interest in seeing it. The ads for it turned me off. Why did you guys all go see it? Didn't most of you expect it to be bad? I don't buy books if I expect them to be bad.

"I like robots. I also like my dog. That doesn't mean I think it should have the same legal rights as me."

That's fine. I didn't say it should.

John

Erik on AI:

"What were you thinking about afterward that you weren't thinking about beforehand?"

That Kubrick's death was a pretty shrewd career move, considering the recent progression of his movies -- from The Shining to Full Metal Jacket to Eyes Wide Shut to the script for AI. He's fallen a looooong way since Dr. Strangelove.

-Tom, only about 30% a Kubrick fan

"Tom, only about 30% a Kubrick fan"

Did you like Clockwork Orange?

I like A Clockwork Orange a lot. I also like The Shining. Between the two he did Barry Lyndon, which some people like the look of, and I thought was perhaps the most boring movie ever made. And after The Shining, Kubrick's career arc was exactly as described by Tom.

Sorry I confused your post saying I was creating a straw man with... a post saying I was creating a straw man.

Apologies are now signs of anger? I really do get more and more confused everyday.

Sorry.

"I don't buy books if I expect them to be bad. "

Either do I, but I do love bad movies. Coyote Ugly may be the best film ever made. Everytime I am done watching it, I question selective stage fright and the economics of spraying all your customers with booze.


Chet

"Apologies are now signs of anger? I really do get more and more confused everyday."

Don't worry, you're probably just not playing enough Rune.

"It was a great parable about jealousy, power, and falling from grace. To dismiss it as "nothing" without one bravura performance is pretty dopey."

Dopey, maybe (you can't help doing that, adding the dig, can you?)...

But it's also true. Without Witherspoon's bravura performance you have a well-made, very obvious, film with significantly less impact. Yes, Broderick was great but I can think of plenty of actors who could have done as well, if not better. Klein was sweet? Ok, whatever, he was average I'd say.

The writing was fantastic and the film work was inventive. But Witherspoon was 99% of why I, and judging from reviews - most critics, loved the film. Her performance is irreplaceable. Without her, in my estimation, you have a "nothing" little film that probably would have gone unnoticed.

-Andrew

I choose to believe that they're aliens.

Amanpour

Bub: "Election is nothing without Witherspoon's wonderful performance."

Tom: Do you just type things without reading them?
-----------

Maybe. Or maybe I was just being hyperbolic and overly enthusiastic and my doing so conflicts with your persnickity nature Tom. ;>

Now...
Do YOU really dismiss 70% of all Kubrick films??!?

-Andrew

I haven't seen AI. The advertising for it left me confused, which doesn't generally attract me to movies. Still, if Spielberg's point was to provoke reaction, he seems to have succeeded with you guys. I haven't seen this much arguement here since "Hannibal."

Shrek had a little robotic boy with feelings...oh, wait, that was a little wooden boy. My bad. Strange, but I have this sudden urge to watch "Empire of the Sun."

Disconnected,
Kazz

"Do YOU really dismiss 70% of all Kubrick films??!?"

I'd say that's being generous. I've soured on him in recent years. I mean, rewatch some of those films. If you can. Apart from Dr. Strangelove and The Killing...maybe some of Full Metal Jacket...a lot of his stuff becomes rather unwatchable. I mean I went back to The Shining and found myself seesawing between laughter and nausea.

Even 2001 drives me up the wall, yet every year or so I give it another try thinking the problem is me.

Maybe I'm being unfair. I liked Paths of Glory more than I thought I would. I haven't seen Spartacus in years. Maybe I can't say that I'd dismiss 70% of his titles, but a large percentage of that which is inside most of his titles.

Amanpour

Bub wrote: "Election is nothing without Witherspoon's wonderful performance."

Then Bub wrote: "Without Witherspoon's bravura performance you have a well-made, very obvious, film with significantly less impact."

"A well-made...film" = "nothing"? So I guess the answer is that you don't read what you type. Interesting approach.

Kind of like equating "not being a fan" with "dismissing". You sound like you're new to the whole 'words' thing.

RE: Election: Klein was an excellent casting find. His election speech is a great moment. There's a reason he's a fairly hot-ticket actor these days and that reason is his performance in Election.

As for your statement that you could imagine other actors that would do as well as Matthew Broderick, I guess the whole reversal of Ferris Bueller's Day Off was lost on you.

Finally, to credit Witherspoon's performance with "99% of why most critics loved the film" shows either a reading comprehension problem when it comes to movie reviews or a complete lack of understanding for the creative process behind moviemaking.

Witherspoon was great. And she was backed by a shrewdly written, impeccably cast, confidently directed movie.

Amanpour wrote: "Maybe I can't say that I'd dismiss 70% of his titles, but a large percentage of that which is inside most of his titles."

I really don't like *most* Kubrick movies. I would easily rank Dr. Strangelove as one of the finest movies ever made, but otherwise, he's made a handful of intriguing movies (Clockwork Orange, Full Metal Jacket, and 2001) and a mess of downright awful movies. And I do blame him for a lot of AI.

-Tom

"So I guess the answer is that you don't read what you type. Interesting approach."

Rude

"You sound like you're new to the whole 'words' thing."

Rude

"...shows either a reading comprehension problem when it comes to movie reviews or a complete lack of understanding for the creative process behind moviemaking."

Rude

It's Tom Chick's message board, we're just visiting.

-Andrew

MSN has an article about robots, in case anyone's interested. There are apparently quite a few available, including one that cuts the lawn and another that vacuums.

http://www.zdnet.com/zdfeeds/msncobrand/news/0%2C13622%2C2781505%2C-hud00025nshm3%2C00.html

The lesson I learned from seriously reflecting on AI:

never defend dreck. Someone will always rip you apart Erik-fashion.

Are Chick and Bub buddies? I haven't noticed Tom slam anybody like that before (except Wumpus of course), and it reminds me of the stuff I rip my fantasy football buddies with (point of no return stuff unless you've gotten high a lot together as teenagers, and slain a lot of Orks together as grade schoolers).

"It's Tom Chick's message board, we're just visiting."

As a comeback, its pure class.

I thought 2001 was a snoozer. Sorry to all the cinemaphiles out there. I liked Clockwork Orange, saw it when I was 16, and had never seen anything like it (I saw it on cable), even more than 10 years after the original release.

I never got the whole Kubrick mystique thing, myself.

Witherspoon has that new "law school" movie out now, right? Is that worth a view?

Also, what's the buzz on Planet of the Apes?

Bub, actually it IS Tom's board. Well, half of it, anyway. Might I suggest you two take it off-line?

I saw 2001 when it was originally released, so back then the cinematics were pretty impressive. That weird LSD trip at the end made no sense, but otherwise I enjoyed the movie.

And HAL seeped into popular culture. "What are you doing, Dave?" Classic stuff.

"I saw 2001 when it was originally released, so back then the cinematics were pretty impressive. That weird LSD trip at the end made no sense, but otherwise I enjoyed the movie."

When I saw it in the original Cinerama format, I thought it was overpowering. The second time I saw it was on a regular 35mm screen, and I thought it had lost a lot. On TV, especially in pan-and-scan format, it's just worthless.

BTW, the MAD magazine parody of 2001 was one of their all-time best. As I recall, they explained the "LSD trip" as David Bowman's pod crashing through all the floors of the Museum of Modern Art.

I saw 2001 in Cinerama format too, but was not overwhelmed. I understood better the impact it must have had in its day, but still found it a chore to sit through.

Any fans of Eyes Wide Shut around here? If so, could you please explain why?

Amanpour

"Any fans of Eyes Wide Shut around here? If so, could you please explain why?"

Who would dare with this crowd?

Just watched "One Day In September" on DVD. Great documentary on the hostage crisis at the 1972 Munich Olympic games. Very well done, infuriating and disturbing.

Amanpour

"Any fans of Eyes Wide Shut around here? If so, could you please explain why?"

What guy doesn't enjoy well filmed porn?

Jeff

"You seem to prejudge any movie that is not serious enough and even seem to think that is noble."

Why not? The Academy does, after all (that's why comedies are never nominated for Best Picture).

"I like robots. I also like my dog. That doesn't mean I think it should have the same legal rights as me."

I do. Think it should have the same legal rights as you, that is (although not the same legal rights as me, of course).

"I do. Think it should have the same legal rights as you, that is (although not the same legal rights as me, of course)."

Ben, my dog, which now has the same legal rights as me, just told me that he's going to sue you for that.

"What guy doesn't enjoy well filmed porn?"

I'll let you know if I ever see any Jshandorf.

-DormOnkey

"I'll let you know if I ever see any Jshandorf. "

Gezhuntite.

"I haven't noticed Tom slam anybody like that before (except Wumpus of course), and it reminds me of the stuff I rip my fantasy football buddies with (point of no return stuff unless you've gotten high a lot together as teenagers, and slain a lot of Orks together as grade schoolers)."

Bub and I have quite a history of spats. He almost always ducks out, though. Which is kind of disappointing. It's the message board equivalent of taking the ball and going home. :)

At any rate, Election is a fine movie on so many levels. To suggest that it's solely (or even 99%) based on Witherspoon's performance is, well, poppycock.

Also, Trespasser sucks, Shadow Watch is a fine game, Pat Buchanan isn't an actual Nazi, and writers should be careful with hyperbole. That pretty much covers the Bub/Chick debate history.

I should point out, in the interest of full disclosure, that Bub and I are locked in a steel cage deathmatch game of Alpha Centauri. He's a godless Communist and I'm a freedom-loving advocate of all that's Good and Right.

-Tom

"Any fans of Eyes Wide Shut around here? If so, could you please explain why?"

I'll bite. I enjoyed it quite a bit. I saw it a few months ago, and was fully aware that every human being I know who has seen it, hated it, especially the piano music. But, low expectations coupled with boredom are a powerful aphrodesiac. I liked it on the same level that I loved John Fowles's the Magus, which is a great book (his first). And, it kicked AI's ass.

"Bub and I have quite a history of spats. He almost always ducks out, though. Which is kind of disappointing. It's the message board equivalent of taking the ball and going home. :) "

It actually seems pretty good natured to me, but I'm sure it is very gratifying to lauch your jumpjet attack on his best base (or was that Raid on Antarres? - my favorite Steve Jackson game).

"Raid on Antarres"

Made me think of "Rescue on Fractalus"

Did anybody else have the shit scared out of them the first time you went to pick up a space man and that scaaaary green monster beat on your windshield?

"Did anybody else have the shit scared out of them the first time you went to pick up a space man and that scaaaary green monster beat on your windshield?"

Yes, and until System Shock 2 came along that was the only time a computer game actually succeeded in scaring me.

"that was the only time a computer game actually succeeded in scaring me."

Seven Cities of Gold scared the Hell out one of my old roommates when he realized he might end up failing both French and Real Analysis because all he had done all quarter was play that game.

"Seven Cities of Gold scared the Hell out one of my old roommates when he realized he might end up failing both French and Real Analysis because all he had done all quarter was play that game."

Heh, well I did get scared when I got that second copy (in addition to the review copy) of New Worlds for Christmas and realized that I wasn't going to be able to return it without a receipt.

Wizardry 1 was the game that made me come close to failing cumulative exams in grad school. OO Topos (anyone remember THAT adventure game?) also came close to sinking my degree. That was one of the best text games I've ever played in creating enduring pictures in my mind - I can still "remember" some of the scenes as if I had actually been there.

I know this sounds like a Gamespot feature, but my scariest moment in gaming was when the doberman came through the window in Resident Evil.

I can't remember too many scary moments, but in the first Diablo my first time in the Caverns I got charged by one of those rhino creatures. It came out of nowhere and ran at me about three times as fast as anything I'd yet seen in the game, and it scared the heck out of me.

Undying was pretty creepy at times.

Air duct. Flashlight running out. Headcrab. Nuff said.

Pirates! nearly got me failed out of college so that was scarey in the RL sense. The only good games, of those that come to mind, that I found creepy and/or extremely tense were X-Com (extremely lethal, brooding soundtrack, attachment to characters) and Panzer Elite (*wingmate blows up* "Who's shooting, where is he?" *shell bangs off bow armour while turret scans crazily* "I can't see a damned thing!" *BOOM*).

Headcrabs were only scary for the first, oh, dozen times. About the thirtieth time a headcrab dropped out of the ceiling directly on to me I was pretty jaded.

Stupid Half-Life game.

I think the first headcrab was the scariest one. I remember frantically trying to shoot it, since no one had told me the crowbar was easier.

"Did anybody else have the shit scared out of them the first time you went to pick up a space man and that scaaaary green monster beat on your windshield?"

I gotta agree, this is by far the most startling moment I've ever experienced playing a video game. There were pirated copies of Rescue on Fractalus floating around about six months before the game came out. The pirated version had a different name, "Behind Jaggi Lines". That's what I was playing. Since I had no idea what to expect, the alien totally came out of nowhere. I actually had to put the controller down and spend a few moments waiting for the adrenaline to work through my system and out my adrenaline hole.

I got you all beat... I had to go back to my college to finish my degree a year and a half after I was supposed to have graduated because I failed a class in my last semester.

I was the best Sega Genesis NHLPA '93 player on campus though. I simply could not be beat.

As far as scary, that alien in Rescue on Fractalus was fantastic. Letting the guys stand outside pounding on the door to get in the ship and hearing the pounding get weaker and weaker until they were dead was sick but entertaining. ;)

I'd love to see a modern remake of Lucasarts' other games from that time. Both Koronis Rift and Ballblazer would make excellent 3D games with up to date graphics and designs.

Shock 2 has a great fear factor. Tripping your first alarm was a frightful moment. Those monkeys also scared the hell out of me. Oh...and meeting Polito for the first time is classic.

I'll throw in DOOM, DOOM 2 and Hexen also. They have some fantastic traps that scare the bejeezus out of you.

--Dave

"Yes, and until System Shock 2 came along that was the only time a computer game actually succeeded in scaring me."

Amber: Journeys Beyond had some genuinely spooky moments (at least early in the game). Thief had a few, too (although that game thrived on "spooky tension" more than adrenaline-pumping fear). But truly scary games are, admittedly, few and far between.

We'll always have Harvester, though... ;)

NFL Challenge made me leave University of Pittsburgh (I made the square root club that semester).

The most frightening point in a game was DOOM when you go to grab the key on one of those first levels and all the lights go out and all of the imps attack. The first time I about jumped out of my chair.

Other notables are the headcrabs scaring the crap out of me. Also the sound of the teleportation portal in Eye of the Beholder at 3am completely freaked me out.

Unreal. The first time you met a Skaarj. The hallway lights blinking out, one by one, and then ... here he comes. Pity they couldn't sustain the game with more moments like that one.

Also, most of Aliens vs. Predator, as a marine, is just like the movies.

Let's not forget Realms of the Haunting. Assuming any of you actually bought Realms of the Haunting... Undying is very much a spiritual successor to that one.

-Andrew

Well, thanks for all the fucking RESCUE ON FRACTALUS SPOILERS.

Jeez! whats the FUCKING statute of limitations on game spoilers anyway? can we discuss the ending of freaking wizardry yet bruce??

Spoiler: Werdna was a sled

-DormOnkey

... and the Maltese Falcon was made of people! PEEEEEEEOPLE!

Does that mean that Soylent Green was the stuff that dreams are made of?

...And at the end of Might and Magic III? Spacemen. And giant floating heads.

For me, the scariest moment was seeing all those bunnies at the end of Full Throttle ...

"whats the [expletive deleted] statute of limitations on game spoilers anyway"

I was totally kidding, but now that you mentioned it I actually would like to know what the statute of limitations is on game spoilers. Is it the same as for movie spoilers? That actually wouldn't help me much, because I don't know what that is, either. Would it be ok to post how Touch of Evil turns out? How about The Sixth Sense? Also, I've never heard of Rescue on Fractalus so I assume this game is either like from 1980 or has elves in it, either one of which would pretty much rule it out for me. I know Lackey says he finished Ultima 1 and called Rich Garriott about it so I suppose he could give us a spoiler for that, too. I don't think revealing what Garriott actually said would count as a spoiler unless he's still answering that phone number, in which case Jeff you'd better not.

". I know Lackey says he finished Ultima 1 and called Rich Garriott about it so I suppose he could give us a spoiler for that, too. I don't think revealing what Garriott actually said would count as a spoiler unless he's still answering that phone number, in which case Jeff you'd better not."

Actually it was Akalabeth, the prequel to the Ultima series. At the end, a page came up that said "Congratulations! Call xxx-xxx-xxxx for a special reward!"

Garriot answered the phone (probably still living with his parents at that time.) I told him the code number I was given. There was a pause, then he said: "42" and the phone went dead.

It was the turning point of my life.

I assume you kept calling that number.... Over and over again, for days on end? Man, great anecdote though, reminds just how innocent the business truly was once.

I recall how the computer games section of a D&D store called Gamesmanship, way back in 1981, smelled like plastic baggies. Everything was so thrilling, neat, imaginative, and really, really poor quality (relatively speaking).

-Andrew
PS: I dug the Werdna joke up there. But I had no idea Bruce was joking either.

You're really right Andrew - there was something special about PCs and PC gaming back then that people today will never experience. Back in 1979, 80, 81, I'd go to the Basic Computer Shoppe at least once a week and one of the two sales guys would show me the new game that just showed up - usually in a plastic bag. We'd pop it in an Apple II and play for a while, and be amazed. Every game seemed to push the envelope a little bit more - even though the hardware was basically static for years. Space Eggs, Cyber Strike, Computer Bismark, Wizard and the Princess, Akalabeth, SubLogic Flight Sim, Wizardry 1, Karateka, Choplifter, they all had some touch that put a silly grin on your face and made you wonder how anyone could create such an amazing game.

A very different environment, indeed.

Jeff

"Space Eggs, Cyber Strike, Computer Bismark, Wizard and the Princess, Akalabeth, SubLogic Flight Sim, Wizardry 1, Karateka, Choplifter"

Stop it! You're making me giddy. I was only 9 years old or so, so my experience was different. For me most games just looked... er, delightfully, complicated. Back then WE were providing most of the graphics, sound, and imagination. The game itself just acted as a catalyst.

Sort of like my grandfather explaining the wonder of radio to a TV punk like myself.

It's not a time I want to go back to. But it was a remarkable time and I'm glad my memory of it is so clear.

Now, I also have fond memories of my shady past. I lived in Singapore for two years (84-86). In Singapore at that time you couldn't buy legal software, nobody sold it. Here's why:

I can recall maybe 5 stores which pirated games. You'd come in with a blank 5.25" disk and they'd, for roughly $1, copy any game onto it. Another $0.50 netted you a photocopied manual. This was pre-code wheel.

In those two years I owned and played EVERYTHING. I think it's directly responsible for my career and also why I don't specialize in any genre. I review and play them all, because I cut my teeth on them all. Doesn't make piracy right at all, of course. I've even tracked down real copies of games I liked back then (Wizardry, Ultima, etc.,) but it was an experience I don't regret per se.

-Andrew

"C--- W----"

SHHHHHHHHHHH!

Don't EVER EVER NEVER EVER say THAT again. You can say damn near anything to me, or around my friends... but saying THAT... oh... just don't do it man.

Speaking the name of such a powerful evil makes even non-believers supersitious. It could summon it forth, so don't take the chance.

--------
Next topic...

Crush, Crumble & Chomp

My all-time favorite Atari800 game, that I searched and searched for in the emulation sites. Once I got it, it was a cool nostalgia trip for 5 minutes and then my eyes began to burn from looking at it, so it had to go. Amazing how we mentally upgrade games we used to love - and how emulators beat us right back down into reality.

Ya know, I was thinking though... it wouldn't be THAT hard to make a web-based (maybe flash?) version of this with tolerable graphics.

Why have the Japanese, masters of making a game out of any license conceivable, not made a decent Godzilla game? COME ON, it's GODZILLA dammit! He's like, their national mascot.

---

Quote:

C--- W----

---

I assume he means Code Wheels. But I'm guessing that only because I've heard him go off on those before.

They were an odious form of copy protection indeed. Something we don't want to revisit. Though, there were cases where the game developer used them effectively. StarFlight allowed you to play at will but eventually you'd get attacked by invincible Space Police. They kill you if you fought or run, eventually you'd either die or have to tell them how many red stars are located in quadrant Q-5 using the map and a square cardboard device that came with the game.

-Andrew

Yeah, sure, that's what he meant.

Heh. Can't blame them for trying to prevent piracy, though. It was near impossible to prevent copying back then, so they had to do something.

I remember lots of "What's the fourth word on the sixth page of the manual?" type stuff, but sometimes they kept it in context of the game. (Ultima 6 had Lord British ask you stuff "Only the true Avatar would know -- consult thy compendium.")

Yeah, those were the good ol' days! ;-)

Just watched "Final Destination" last night. What a wonderful little Rube Goldberg device of a film. Color me surprised.

Expected to hate it, or at least be bored, but I liked the darn thing. Clever film. At times I wasn't sure what it was trying to be, whether it was trying to be a goof like "Scream" or something more straight, but this didn't really get in the way.

I don't remember how this film was marketed, but I think if the film I saw last night had been advertised I would have gone to theatres to see it. Does anyone remember how it was marketed?

Also loved the sound design.

Amanpour

Sheesh, Amanpour, you could at least credit the guy who all but *forced* you to watch it...

I remember seeing the trailers and writing it off as a dopey teen horror flick. Instead, it's a clever little twister that operates from the premise that the world is just a coiled machine waiting for the events to be set in motion that will bring about your grisly death. It did an excellent job of breathing sinister life into everyday objects. And it used a good economy of storytelling. I remember rolling my eyes when you find out the sullen chick is a welder/artist. But that detail plays into a later set-up!

Did you see the alternate takes, with the love scene, the sacrifice, and the whole baby angle? Ick. I'm so glad they went with that shrewd coda instead.

-Tom, Final Destination evangelist

Final Destination was pretty good (except for the horrible acting) but the film isn't *nearly* as good as some of the X-Files episodes James Wong cut his teeth on (Tooms, Home, & Never Again -- especially Home... shudder).

Final Destination Spoiler:
Have you played the "bus accident" scene in slow motion yet? It's actually scary how much grisly detail went into that splat. (I have a cousin who is an aspiring make-up guy and he made me watch it.)

-Andrew

I don't think there's a DVD owner alive who wouldn't instantly think to watch the bus scene frame-by-frame.

I'm not a big X-Files fan, but Home is a very promising example of James Wong's capability (that's the one with the inbred family, right?).

You think the acting in FD was "horrible"? Jeez, Bub, it's not the Royal Shakespeare Company, but it serves the material very well. I thought Devon Sawa, the lead, was actually really good. He did a good job combining confusion, conviction, and even a little of the comedy of his plight. Granted, he's no Reese Witherspoon...

However, I could have done without Tony Todd's 'Ooh, look, it's Tony Todd!' appearance.

-Tom

"I don't think there's a DVD owner alive who wouldn't instantly think to watch the bus scene frame-by-frame."

You haven't met my cousin. And actually he did it in "slo-mo"... really, it's startlingly detailed. Which makes me think they did it detailed and then, for the ratings board, sped it up. Which is probably why it IS sped up so outrageously, which, happily, adds to the film's style. (Really, the detail is frightening, so unless he was going for something sublimibable...)

"I'm not a big X-Files fan"

A couple seasons there represent the best TV I've ever seen. Now it's dreck.

"... but Home is a very promising example of James Wong's capability (that's the one with the inbred family, right?)."

Exactly. I recall a 50's tune being ruined in that episode. Twilight Time?

The acting was horrible... Horrible in a relative sense. I mean, it was a "teen slasher pic", taking that into account it was indeed The Royal Shakespeare company. Not something I'd want to sit through again though.

Tony Todd? Wasn't he Candyman?

-Andrew
PS: Amanpour, "Teen Slasher Pic" was how it was marketed. Like Scream or that "I know what you did..." thing.

Re: Final Destination

The opening sequence was terrifying. Whoever was repsonsible for it (whether it be the screenwriter or the director) is either terrified of flying or did his research well, because it was just spot on - especially the things the protag noticed as he was boarding the plane.

I just wished the rest of the film had lived up to the opening. Or maybe I'm just tired of funny, "wink wink" horror movies.

oh yeah, Final Destination is a cool DVD. It has that test your pstchic ability thing... anyway, FD was pretty good... though i could do without all the teen actors acting all cool. or something. same thing with Blair Witch 2, I liked it, but could have done without the teens acting real cool.

BTW, i saw a preview for the next Kevin Smith movie while watching an SNL rerun with J-LO. Looks pretty funny. It looks to be set in LA.

aye i just came back from LA... that place is weird. and the roads around LA....im so used to Chicago's flat roads, driving from Vegas to LA and Vegas again.. in PITCH DARKNESS... all i can say is "runaway truck ramp" yeesh. i nearly soiled my pants driving from Vegas to LA at a qaurter to 3am! I also took the metro to LAX from Hollywood... talk about a long trip... and i was a little paranoid about earthquakes going off while i was in the subway tunnels. yeah, i guess im a paranoid android harhar.

anyway, I actually thought AI was pretty good...Kubrick and Spielberg not too bad (though if you saw DARYL, its really not that much better), the special effects were great in AI. Hate John Hurt in AI though ... he always plays a smarmy intellectual snob, like james spader playing the yuppie scum all the time... if i was that AI kid, i would have smashed John Hurts face... you know like rebelling against your father!

also John Carpenters Mouth of Madness or Prince of Darkness... anybody here like them? I think John Carpenter IS one of the best directors out there... Starman is also good too, it dealt with losing a loved one better than most Hollywood movies do... also, there is a cosmopolitan international feel to John Carpenter... his movies cater to everybody and dont talk down to anybody.

rambling.

etc

btw, LA feels alot like the DAvid Lynch movie Lost Highway... its feels so transient yet at the same time very open to all types of people. I liked LA and disliked it for these reasons.

any LA people here know of movies that capture LA great? i felt The Limey captured LA pretty good as did Short Cuts and The Player and Swingers... but i only spent like a few days in LA though. i probably was in Vegas half the time... talk about disneyland on LSD! even the Denny's have slot machines!!! yeesh

etc

>The opening sequence was terrifying. Whoever was repsonsible for it (whether it be the screenwriter or the director) is either terrified of flying or did his research well, because it was just spot on - especially the things the protag noticed as he was boarding the plane

I thought the same thing - it was terrifying, largely because of its attention to detail - had a (bad) dream-like quality as well. I went to the movie solely because I had read how effective that scene was, and I completed agreed. But I was disappointed that "death" was then almost personified into a serial killer; able to move objects, etc. -- that angle was goofy. I thought it worked much better when they were just destined to be fatally "unlucky".

>Did you see the alternate takes, with the love scene, the sacrifice, and the whole baby angle? Ick. I'm so glad they went with that shrewd coda instead.

Are these worth renting the DVD for? Doesn't sound like it, but I love deleted scenes.

Stefan

"Are these worth renting the DVD for? Doesn't sound like it, but I love deleted scenes."

No.
It's sort of the opposite of that hilarious D&D movie. Anyone notice that the ending they didn't use was better? The only difference was the "party" wasn't onhand to do the metaphorical "here comes the sequel- group hug". I mean, it was still bad and all, but less cliche and "cue the trumpets".

What I loved about D&D was that now, if I want to make my wife laugh hysterically, all I need do is say "NOW is your time to Die!" in a dead on Jeremy Irons (ought to be ashamed of himself) voice.

In other news, I loved the first 40 minutes of Dracula 2000. Good scary vampire stuff. Then it just got silly.

-Andrew

"In those two years I owned and played EVERYTHING. I think it's directly responsible for my career and also why I don't specialize in any genre. I review and play them all, because I cut my teeth on them all. Doesn't make piracy right at all, of course. I've even tracked down real copies of games I liked back then (Wizardry, Ultima, etc.,) but it was an experience I don't regret per se."

I'm enjoying this movie thread.

I suspect a lot of current reviewers close to 30 were software pirates "back in the day", so to speak-- when Mr. Mister was a band to be reckoned with.

Anyway. Movies.

"What I loved about D&D was that now, if I want to make my wife laugh hysterically, all I need do is say "NOW is your time to Die!" in a dead on Jeremy Irons (ought to be ashamed of himself) voice."

Yeah, I do that with my Crouching Tiger 'flying' sequence. It's fun for the whole family. Speaking of which, riddle me this, kagass-man: Tom pans Rushmore as being too unrealistic, yet nearly soils himself at any mention of CTHD, which I found _ludicrously_ unrealistic. Now, I'm not saying it was a bad movie, mind you.. just questioning the logic there.

I'm thinking of this because I watched Rushmore again. I was recently hooking up the DVD system-- drilling holes through the floor to route cable under the house-- and I needed a movie to test the sound system with. I sorta grabbed for a movie at random and I happened to pick the criterion Rushmore. Started watching it, and both my wife and I simply could _not_ stop. Every time I watch it, I swear the goddamn thing gets better. I'd say Rushmore is one of my top 10 of all time at this point.

Final Destination was surprisingly good; it reminded me a lot of a modern Twilight Zone episode. A really good one. Not those crappy Outer Limits throwaways.

"any LA people here know of movies that capture LA great?"

I guess this is Tom's question, but I need to see "To Live and Die in LA" again (bonus: Wang Chung soundtrack), and of course you've seen "Heat".

mtkafka: "any LA people here know of movies that capture LA great?"

My favorite LA movie is Killing of a Chinese Bookie. There's so much good LA stuff in there: the long walks down Sunset, the crappy public transportation. Not to mention the fact that the strip club Ben Gazzara's character owns was actually Gazarri's - a rock club that became somewhat synonymous with the hair band glut of the 80s. And Timothy Carrey is in it!

It's a great LA movie if only because it's so geographically sound. Most movies set in LA (Falling Down being one of the worst offenders) drive me crazy because of the illogical jumps in location.

That said, almost everyone else I know who has made it even partially through Chinese Bookie has hated it. So be warned.

The problem with trying to select "LA movies" is that LA is such a sprawling, undefinable mess that no film could really capture everything about it.

Also: Chinatown!

>any LA people here know of movies that capture LA great

I'll defer to Ron on that one, but I've always found it a kick to see places I know in movies, especially since - being Canadian - that used to be rare. But now they film so many films in Toronto, I'm always catching glimpses of my home (which was in both American Psycho and Exit Wounds) or office (which was also in American Psycho). Yet even when Toronto is not doubling for NY (which is rare), there hasn't been a film that really captured the city well. The "Toronto" scenes in the Hurricane were inane (ironic, since it had a Canadian director).

The only aspect of The Score that I truly enjoyed was the use of Montreal as the setting. While the setting wasn't representative of the city as a whole (it always showed the old, cool part of the city), the city was definitely prominently featured in the movie, which gave the move a distinct feel (um, as opposed to Brando not wearing pants).

Stefan

My hometown has never been used in a movie, but we did host a premiere for "A Soldier's Story" since they filmed part of the movie in a town about 20 miles away that did not have a movie theater. If memory serves, Norman Jewison came out to the sticks to speak at the showing. Very good film even to a then 14 year-old kid.

-DavidCPA

"It's a great LA movie if only because it's so geographically sound. Most movies set in LA (Falling Down being one of the worst offenders) drive me crazy because of the illogical jumps in location."

This makes me crazy, too. It takes me a long time to get back into the movie after that. I haven't seen it in a while, but didn't Steve Martin purposely do this in LA Story?

Speaking of LA Story, I saw that in the theater that used to be in the basement of a hotel in downtown (now the Marriott, where Fatboy Slim's "Weapon of Choice" video was filmed). Most of the audience was people that lived in apartments downtown, so the crowd got all of the jokes & it was lots of fun. I always wondered how it played in Peoria, if at all. My wife and I still use references from the film, like referring to all fancy beach hotels as "Pollo del Mar," and describing a certain type of woman as "big S little a little n big D little e big E."

"The problem with trying to select "LA movies" is that LA is such a sprawling, undefinable mess that no film could really capture everything about it."

There is no single LA. I find LA can be like a big quilt or mosaic - just about everyone and everything is here (and in relative harmony). The beach/Hollywood stereotype of LA is only found on the west side and in parts of the San Fernando valley (of Valley Girl fame). There are some interesting parts in LA proper, a lot of history in downtown and midtown, and there are different ethnic enclaves that are fun to visit (Little Saigon, for example), but most of it now is just people living and working. As time wears on, the quilt aspects are starting to fade.

I live in the San Gabriel Valley, and it is pretty much just plain ol' suburbs. Despite there being 30 cities and 1.8 million people in the SGV, the only thing most people might recognize is Pasadena (Rose Parade/Bowl, Little Old Lady From). I'm getting ready to move to Stevenson Ranch, but it is virtually indistinguishable from any other new suburban development (my wife says it is "Poltergeisty," from the opening scene with all of the new houses). I could blindfold you and take you to Rancho Cucamonga, Rancho Santa Margarita, or Stevenson Ranch, and you would be hardpressed to tell the difference. However, they are 70 miles apart and each on a different edge of the LA area. Raymond Chandler it ain't.

My favorite, if dated, look at LA is from Annie Hall. "I've forgotten my mantra!" mumbles an unknown Jeff Goldblum.

-Andrew

Ah, I mainly visited Burbank, Glendale, Hollywood and its surroundings, some parts of the century city area, Venice, East LA, (we had to do alot of shopping for a friend who had just moved to Hollywood, a few blocks from that China Thatre place..) just did a lot of voyeuristic tourist driving in LA ... didnt see much of the valley though.

It is true at least of what i saw, that LA is a sprawling quilt type of a place, not really messy but kind of "unorganized" in terms of how the roads are made. Im used to Chicago's congruent perpindicular roads and streets, all at e-w, n-s straight ways... anyway... Chicagos quilt aspect is fading too... much of the "old" neighberhoods are being gentrified wholesale ... Wicker Park being the biggest change. but what does it matter to me, im an american suburban slob, hmm.

Still though metro LA at least seems more racially mixed than Chicago, imo. I mean in that its more racially mixed neighborhood-wise in some areas of LA than in Chicago... which is a good thing imo.

etc

L.A. films...

I loved L.A. Story. To address Supertanker's query, I saw it when I lived in Virginia and I loved it then too. I "got" most of it because I watch too much film. I even got the valley joke. Still love the film, though I haven't seen it in years.

How about Pulp Fiction as an L.A. film?

Amanpour

Don't forget "Valley Girl," with a young Nicolas Cage, which captured the gap between kids in the Valley and Hollywood... plus it had a scene with the Plimsouls performing "Million Miles Away" at the Palladium (or was it the Roxy?). There's also "Boyz in the Hood" and the Showtime series "Resurrection Blvd."

"Boogie Nights" really captured the Valley at a particular time and place. It was weird growing up there and knowing the porn industry was in your back yard.

In keeping with Ron's "Killing of a Chinese Bookie" reference, don't forget Paul Schrader's "Hardcore" (George C. Scott in porn hell) for a nasty version of L.A.

Old school L.A. is best seen in "Chinatown" and, oddly enough, "Who Framed Roger Rabbit".

>>>In keeping with Ron's "Killing of a Chinese Bookie" reference, don't forget Paul Schrader's "Hardcore" (George C. Scott in porn hell) for a nasty version of L.A. <<<<<

Both were on cable this weekend and I watched both. Killing of a Chinese Bookie was just too much bad 70s for me to get into.

I watched KCB right after a documentary on a farm family in Utah having to sell their farm. Sometimes watching 2 or 3 movies in a row on cable pays off with weird connections - other times it just destroys one of the films. This was destruction time.

Chet

For old-time LA, I'd add Hollywood Confidential and Sunset Boulevard.

Speaking of Sunset Boulevard, LA was a favorite setting for Film Noir (The Big Sleep) and neo-Noir films (Chinatown, The Long Goodbye).

THE BIG SLEEP! THE BIG SLEEP!

Amanpour

Speaking of film noir, in Max Payne at one point Max says something about New York city and then refers to that "other New York city, noir city." Jesus, the writing sucks in that game.

As far as film noir goes, I'm still partial to The Third Man and the classic B movie, Double Indemnity. The Big Sleep is great too.

"As far as film noir goes, I'm still partial to The Third Man and the classic B movie, Double Indemnity. The Big Sleep is great too."

Those are three great ones. But, if I had to pick one noir film, I guess it would be The Maltese Falcon. "The chances are you'll get off with life. That means if you're a good girl, you'll be out in 20 years. I'll be waiting for you. If they hang you, I'll always remember you."

---

Quote:

...the classic B movie, Double Indemnity

---

"The chances are you'll get off with life. That means if you're a good girl, you'll be out in 20 years. I'll be waiting for you. If they hang you, I'll always remember you."

Ah, Bogart. For anyone wondering why some of us loathe Max Payne's writing so much. It isn't only because it's bad. It's because it just doesn't live up to this and Mike Hammer. A good example of modern noir dialogue is Frank Miller's Sin City:

"There isn't much better in than a smoke when you haven't had one in a while. Like after a movie. Or after church. ...I just murdered a priest...

His keys say the padre drive a Mercedes. Or at least what they're passing off as a Mercedes these days. Modern cars. They all look like electric shavers."

-Andrew

Any of you cats seen Sweet Smell of Success?

-Amanpour

I'm thinking of getting Akira (anime) on DvD, but I've never seen it. I hear it's worth the purchase. Go for it?

Raphael

Don't really know where to put this. It's about movies, so I guess here. It's an article Wes Anderson wrote about a private screening of Rushmore he held for Pauline Kael. You have to scroll down a few paragraphs to get to the article.

http://www.bigsombrero.com/oaa/oaa19990205.html

Erik, didn't Hollywood call for Wes's murder after the interview, for that whole "bothering a Parkinson's victim, possibly for a review" thing? Or am I thinking of a different person finding Kael?

Thanks Erik,
that was an interesting read. I'm curious about what McCullogh is talking about though. Is there maybe more too it than Wes is revealing? Sounds like he showed her a decent time. The elderly, especially those with Parkinsons, don't get out much.

-Andrew

The only thing I can find about it is a godforsaken salon article:

http://www.salon.com/bc/1999/02/09bc2.html

Apparently Wes was the guy to reveal to the world she had Parkinson's.

Oh, here we go:

http://slate.msn.com/MovieReview/99-02-27/SideB01.asp
http://slate.msn.com/MovieReview/99-02-06/MovieReview.asp

Ok, thanks Jason.
That's an awful lot of behind the scenes context there. Interesting the way Edelstein folded it into his review though.

Thanks for tracking it all down. Even the godforsaken Tucker article.

-Andrew

Edelstein dismisses Bottle Rocket - one of the most original comedies of the last several decades - as "tediously quirky". So even before he goes on to describe how Rushmore apparently made his valve slam shut, his opinion on everything has been invalidated. The review ends with a rather lengthy personal attack on Wes Anderson, which is the kind of thing that wouldn't fly even in the openly corrupt world of game reviewing. He sounds like a fucking kook to me.

Edelstein dismisses Bottle Rocket - one of the most original comedies of the last several decades - as "tediously quirky". So even before he goes on to describe how Rushmore apparently made his valve slam shut, his opinion on everything has been invalidated. The review ends with a rather lengthy personal attack on Wes Anderson, which is the kind of thing that wouldn't fly even in the openly corrupt world of game reviewing. He sounds like a fucking kook to me.

Huh.

Yes, interesting.
I'm not much of an Edelstein fan, though I like Slate a lot. I recall Edelstein praising Monkeybone while unabashedly revealing he was friends with the original screenwriter or something. It stuck with me because it seemed so naked a conflict of interest but he seemed so unaware of that fact.

Plus, ...god, I hated Monkeybone.

I should probably see Bottle Rocket, but I have to agree with his assessment of Rushmore. I admire some of it, but ultimately found it remote, unlikable and overrated.

-Andrew

"I should probably see Bottle Rocket, but I have to agree with his assessment of Rushmore. I admire some of it, but ultimately found it remote, unlikable and overrated."

You're fired.

Amanpour

I adore Rushmore but found Bottle Rocket a wee-bit too precious... and dare I say it, "tediously quirky."

I know, I'm fired too.

I've violated rule #1 of the "House of Chick"

"Thou must worship at the altar of Bottle Rocket."

And Erik likes it too, which means I'm doomed.

Maybe I'll rent Bottle Rocket this week and, y'know, just sort of like it a lot. I mean, I want my job back.

-Andrew

I'm neither here nor there on Bottle Rocket, Bub. It's Rushmore that I'm on about. I mean really. Remote? Unlikeable? Overrated?

Oof.

To me Rushmore is one of the best films of the last few years. It is one of those films that I keep going back to and keep getting more from each time I see it.

"I've seen 'The Exorcist' a hundred and sixty-seven times*...and it keeps getting funnier...every single time I see it!"

Remote? What does that mean? Are you responding to the remote control airplane scene?

Unlikeable? Watch the scene where Bill Murray runs off after talking to the teacher...how could any film that has that moment be unlikeable? Come on.

Overrated? I've got nothing pithy to say on this one. Other than: it's not.

Amanpour

*approximate number of times

Yeah, see, I've seen most of Rushmore twice, upon recommendations from you guys, and it just didn't really do anything for me. I didn't particularly enjoy it.

But then, when it comes to movies...well, I don't see eye-to-eye with hardly anyone around here.

Of course, I'm the only one who's "right." :-)

"Everyone's lost but me."

Amanpour,
I've only seen it once and it was a while ago, but I recall feeling the movie was sort of detached from its own world and from its characters, which is what I meant by "remote". The characters felt more like sketches with interesting attributes, rather than actual personalities.

I did admire the acting and I did laugh at a few scenes, but, to me, the film was indeed overrated. The critical response it got was intriguing, there was plenty of Oscar talk, and most of my friends feel as you do and still enjoy the film to this day. All that prompted me to see it and maybe I was expecting too much. Again, it's been a while.

It's definitely a movie I wanted to like. Maybe I couldn't accept its sort of skewed world. Even though I thought the acting was superb, I didn't find any of the players to be "characters I wanted to watch". Even though they were "actors I wanted to watch". Which is what I meant by "unlikeable". The movie moved on its own momentum but it left me behind.

Now, I will agree with you wholeheartedly that more movies would be likable if they only featured Bill Murray running...

(Actually, now that you mention it, I did like that scene.)
-Andrew

I think Edelstein does have a point with the Kael Anderson article though... "A person with even an trace of decency would not have turned around and written up the encounter in a way designed to make sport of her infirmities." (parkinsons disease) What really was the point of the Anderson article? "Anderson has trouble seeing much beyond the bubble of his narcissism." Edelstein hits it on the head.

Anyway, I liked Rushmore even if Anderson seems a bit too "precious". It just feels honest and humble (unlike his letter). Bottle Rocket was kind of boring but it had some of that "existential?" comedy. Really though, i think something like the Farrely Brothers comedies are a whole lot better "comedy" than Anderson. Kingpin and Something about Mary are pretty goddamn funny movies!

etc

I could write a defense of Wes Anderson and especially Bottle Rocket, but - what with the laziness and all - here's a link to an article praising Anderson by Martin Scorsese (who named Bottle Rocket one of the top ten films of the 90's):

http://www.esquire.com/features/2000/march/scorsese/000301_mfe_scorsese_wanderson.html

Another article in the incredibly fruity Film Comment sums up why I find Anderson's work so striking:

"Todd Solondz may be the new leader of the arch-irony cult, and therefore the filmmaker seemingly most at odds with Anderson's lighter, nonsatiric touch, but he at least uses his distance to create a shifting matrix of uncertain sympathy and identification. It's filmmakers like Gregg Araki or that ironist old-timer Hal Hartley to whom Anderson is most in opposition. They use an ironic stance to establish their superiority over characters and audience alike. Within their overly referential worlds, the viewer is always left to play catch-up, attempting not only to spot the reference but also digest its "meaning," while characters are reduced to ciphers or signs. In a climate where coolness reigns and nothing matters, the toughest stance to take is one of engagement and empathy. Anderson seems to have accepted the challenge."

Okay Bub, I see where you're coming from. I hereby rescind the firing.

While I'm at it I guess I'll have to un-fire my wife too, who didn't see what all the fuss was about either.

Sigh.

Hey Erik, thanks for the link. I totally agree with what Scorsese says about Anderson's use of music. That has always been one of my favorite elements about Rushmore. Now I guess I'll have to get serious about Tom's insistence that I see Bottle Rocket again. If I like it more this time, I'll be sure to give you credit, Tom, and thereby hopefully make up for my lack of disclosure on Final Destination.

"She's my Rushmore, Max."

Amanpour

"It's filmmakers like Gregg Araki or that ironist old-timer Hal Hartley to whom Anderson is most in opposition."

I'm not big on overly referential irony, but I do remember liking The Living End. I haven't seen The Doom Generation.

Hey Erik, upon further review of that article I have to temper my thanks for the link to it.

Upon closer inspection I realized that it is a part of an Esquire feature in which fans "Vote For the Next Scorsese."

"The most talented new generation of film directors since the '70s is upon us. They won't all last. They won't all leave a great body of work. And they won't all continue making ambitious movies. Which one of them will become the next Scorsese?"

Then there is a link to a page where you get to vote for the next Scorsese. Goofy, goofy, goofy. The little commentaries are good but the feature is just weird, especially since Scorsese himself gets to nominate someone (Anderson). I think there should also be an opportunity to vote for the next Roger Corman*.

"He's the next Martin Score-seeez!"

-Amanpour

*I nominate Ridley Scott.

Micheal Bay is the next Scoreseez. Sheesh.

And I think Erik's link is invalid because it's very wumpus-like of him. If we all use external links to justify our points, I'll have to find that recent Time article that named Sleater-Kinney the best rock n' roll band in the world right now.

"And I think Erik's link is invalid"

Okay, "defense" wasn't the best word I could have chosen. The articles simply stated *my* reasoning without me having to do any actual work - a win-win situation for me. Again, I long ago gave up thinking I could persuade anyone to like things they don't like. There's also the desperate opinion validation aspect; I see your David Edelstein and raise you Martin Scorsese.

Since none of the text mentions Martin Scorsese, I'm assuming the esquire people came up with the framing device after the fact.

even if Anderson was a big dickhead... wouldnt mean he doesnt make good movies. I thought Bottle Rocket and Rushmore were good because it does kind of have that "Renoir" feel, some reviewers have said.... but its foolish to say hes the next scorcese. Theres nothing in Andersons movies that resembles Scorcese, imo. The Boggie Nights director... thats a Scorcese guy (forgot name, PT anderson something or other).

Heres a good review of Rushmore that I found.

http://www.chireader.com/movies/archives/1999/0299/02129.html

Also, I think Scorcese since Goodfella's hasn't done anything ... great. Good movies (Casino, Kundun, Bring out the Dead etc) but not great. imo of course!

Whats missing from a lot of contemporary "gen x" directors is the ego of the 70's directors, or a sense of doing it all in one movie, or just plain old "fuck you" ambition. I think too many of the 90's gen X directors are a little too subdued and technical or caught up with there own agendas. But one thing, generally speaking, the gen x directors do have is a better sense of humor (or irony). again all imo!

etc

*I* haven't even seen Rushmore. I posted that link strictly on the vague impression I have that it's a pretentious movie, and the loathing one of my friends has for it. That, and I couldn't believe I actually remembered Variety fodder for once.

Just to up the ante: Scorcese hasn't made a good movie for a decade, possibly excepting Casino. He also probably enjoys downing his own feces, as he's one of those people who agrees to be involved in articles where he gets to pick the next guy that'll be as good as the Mr. Superdirector in the mirror.

"Scorcese hasn't made a good movie for a decade"

Are you counting Cape Fear in the last ten years?

I don't watch scary movies. :(

>I haven't seen The Doom Generation.

It's terrible. I saw it at the Toronto film festival in 94 or 95 and had a beer with Araki afterwards. People were pretty aggressive about challenging him on the merits of his flick, and he defended his decisions terribly. Frankly, he came across as a simpleton. Uh, that's certainly not how I'd describe Andersen or Solondz.

Rushmore, for no obvious reason, reminds me more and more of Dr. Strangelove -- I admire it more and more with each viewing. I definitely think it's one fo the best movies released in the past several years.

Stefan

Isnt Doom Generation where the ending has gay jocks raping the lead character with the American flag in the background looking like Nazi's? That movie was dumb! BTW, I remember in the reamke of Cape Fear Deniro having a laugh riot while watching some kind of Holocaust movie... what a nutball!

Also, I think the appeal of Rushmore is that it has more than meets the eye from first viewing. There are subtle things going on in the movie... such as the Vietnam War as a backdrop for BIll Murrays character, the class distinctions(private and public school), age differences (Murray and Max), first love, friendship... and its all done without a preference and with subtlety... it pretty much shows Max as a likable but flawed character who is a Bart Simpson "on the overachieving end" with ambition. I love the scene when he is getting kicked out of school and he tries to BS his way to stay in the private school with the actor who played Hannibal in Manhunter...hilarious scene. funny and desperate at the same time. BTW the DVD is great with the Max Fischer Players doing remakes of that years oscar movies... hilarious.

etc

I prefer the Simpsons Cape Fear parody myself, with Sideshow Bob doing DeNiro.

And yeah, Doom Generation features that subtle final rape scene. What a dreadful movie... fashionably nihilistic.

A lot of Rushmore is about how we never grow up. Even Bryan Cox (who plays the headmaster of the school) starts acting like a child as he parrots back Max's statements with a baby voice in one scene...

And the music perfectly matches that theme. What says youth more than blasts of 60s guitar pop? Pop music (not the Britney Spears stuff but the more classic Beatles/Cheap Trick/Matthew Sweet stuff) is all about youth, summer days, love, blah blah blah. Mark Mothersbaugh's original music (with a lot of harpsichord) is also great (for those who don't know him, he was a founder, and the singer, of Devo, who knew something about deconstructing and creating pop songs).

"I prefer the Simpsons Cape Fear parody myself, with Sideshow Bob doing DeNiro."

That was one of the all-time great Simpsons. I also prefer the orginal movie with Robert Mitchum doing, er, Robert Mitchum.

Steve: "And the music perfectly matches that theme."

For anyone who liked Rushmore's soundtrack, I can unreservedly recommend the Nuggets II box from Rhino. It's all mod-era, non-US bands (mostly from the UK, but there's a good deal of central and south american stuff there as well). It starts off with The Creation's "Making Time" (featured in Rushmore during the activities montage), but also has great songs like The Action's version of "I'll Keep Holding On," Fleur de Lys' version of "Circles," Van Morrison's "I Can Only Give You Everything," Status Quo's "Pictures of Matchstick Men" (to allude to another thread), and even some Os Mutantes (a crazy Brazillian band that played tropicalia - a latin-rhythm-based version of psychedelia).

For that matter, the first Nuggets box (primarily US bands from the same era) is good as well.

Nuggets II
Nuggets

I have the first Nuggets box and some day, when I'm wealthy, will buy the second. The first is pretty fabulous.

I actually bought the Rushmore soundtrack primarily to get that Creation song, which I just love to death.

"Unlikeable? Watch the scene where Bill Murray runs off after talking to the teacher...how could any film that has that moment be unlikeable? Come on."

Definitely check out the commentary track on the Criterion edition. Sigh. Why'd they have to release the regular version THEN the outstanding criterion edition?

Bottle Rocket didn't do much for me; it feels muddled, like a trial run for what Rushmore ultimately became. I can't wait to see what Wes does with his next movie, The Royal Tenenbaums!

Thanks for this link, Erik:

http://www.bigsombrero.com/oaa/oaa19990205.html

Though I can't say I agreed with Kael's reviews often, if ever, I wouldn't wish parkinsons on anyone.

"I did admire the acting and I did laugh at a few scenes, but, to me, the film was indeed overrated. The critical response it got was intriguing, there was plenty of Oscar talk, and most of my friends feel as you do and still enjoy the film to this day. All that prompted me to see it and maybe I was expecting too much. Again, it's been a while."

Hey, join the club. That's exactly how I feel about CTHD.

Ron-- excellent suggestion on the Nuggets box. I've seen the recommendation before, but putting it in the context of Rushmore (which featured mostly 60's era british invasion bands) helps a lot. I own the soundtrack, too.

"Hey, join the club. That's exactly how I feel about CTHD."

So, you're now finished linking to reviewers to support your unsupported opinion, now you're stealing *parts* of my posts (out of context) to back yourself up?

I liked CTHD Jeff. I don't want to join your club. Thanks for the invite though.

-Andrew

Actually, I take that back. I wish parkinson's on Bub.

Saw "The Gift" last weekend. It's impressive. Kinnear is perfect for his role. Keanu makes a great redneck wife beater too. It's probably one of my favorite Sam Raimi movies now. It keeps rolling right along from beginning to end and just scary enough to keep you on edge.

Gary Cole plays the DA and does a terrific job. He was the lead in the scariest TV show no one ever saw, American Gothic. He played a whacked out sheriff of a small southern town who just may have been the Devil. Great stuff that was. He's also Mr. Brady in the two Brady films. A very good actor that people recognize, but don't remember his name.

--Dave

Almost forgot... we also watched "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" That's a hell of a lot of fun. I love George Clooney. Someone put him in an out and out comedy already!

Some really good performances in "O Brother". I really like John Turturro and Tim Blake Nelson was good in his role too. John Goodman makes a great "cyclops".

I wonder if it didn't do well simply because of The Odyssey connection? There had to be a lot of people scratching their heads at some parts of the film.

--Dave

"I wonder if it didn't do well simply because of The Odyssey connection?"

Surprisingly, it may have been the most successful of the Coen Bros. films. My source is this New York Press article:

http://www.nypress.com/14/25/film/film2.cfm

Here's the relevant quote:

"Against all commercial logic, O Brother went on to earn more money than any of their other films, including 1996�s Oscar-nominated Fargo."

Here's another one:

"The soundtrack sold more than a million copies and inspired a Carnegie Hall recital and a touring show�not bad for a sampler of time-tested bluegrass and blues."

I hate to admit it, but I agree with Ebert on "O brother" (I don't agree with Gleiberman). I loved certain scenes (the Sirens, the Cyclops) but the whole film just completely fell apart for me. Maybe it strained credulity too much, or was a bit too cute. Also, I thought it was pretty obvious the Cohens didn't actually read The Odyssey.... Great soundtrack and great performances, but the movie sort of stumbled around a lot. It reminded me of "Hudsucker", in that way.

I liked The Gift, but I felt Keanu was only impressive because he was so "un-Keanu". He still looked and sounded like a California surfer affecting a redneck accent. Blanchett was luminous and beautiful, but she spent the whole movie reacting. Also, I saw the twist coming a mile away -- which sort of hurt the mystery for me.

Giovanni was great, as always, (such dead eyes) but that whole thing with his parents would have been a lot more effective if I'd understood what he was jawing about in his "sessions" with Cate. As it was that whole thing came out of left field and robbed the court drama of its power.

The actor who made the most convincing impression on me was the defense attorney. (Former star of The Fisher King and that bad sitcom Evening Shade - he also plays "Mr. Noodle's brother, Mr. Noodle" .. yeah, I have a one year old....) Maybe that's because I know the South and nobody else in the film (save Ribisi) felt at all "Southern"

Don't get me wrong here, I liked "The Gift" and "O, Brother" but I definitely thought they could have been much better movies.

-Andrew

"Also, I thought it was pretty obvious the Cohens didn't actually read The Odyssey..."

They're not trying to hide that fact from anyone. They openly admit they just wanted to have a credit that read "Based on the Odyssey by Homer" because they thought it sounded funny. According to them, they stuck in all the parts they remembered hearing about the Odyssey.

They also considered putting the credit "Also Based On Moby Dick" after the Odyssey credit, for added goofiness.

I just love the idea that English teachers who don't know any better are going to be showing O Brother (or having subs do it) during the Odyssey unit. Hopefully the kids will be smart enough to keep quiet and kick back and enjoy the film.

Amanpour

I think the joke the Cohen brothers were making -- one that I'm in complete agreement with -- is that Homer's Odyssey is the Ur road movie. Nearly any picaresque story involving travel that takes longer than a single day (or not, considering Scorcese's After Hours) is arguably drawn from The Odyssey.

BTW, best movie of the summer? Made.

Thank you and good night.

-Tom

"BTW, best movie of the summer? Made."

I just want to second that.

"They're not trying to hide that fact from anyone. They openly admit they just wanted to have a credit that read 'Based on the Odyssey by Homer'"

LOL, I didn't know that! Here I thought it had just been so long since I read Homer, that I might have missed something. Now you guys have me jonesin' for an MP3 of the Soggy Bottom Boys. Anyone know where I can get a fix?

Tom: "BTW, best movie of the summer? Made."

Erik: "I just want to second that."

Me: I'm seeing it next week... I hope. I loved Swingers, so I've been looking forward to, sort of, another go 'round. I also like mob stories. Yay! A summer movie I can look forward to!

-Andrew

"Nearly any picaresque story involving travel that takes longer than a single day (or not, considering Scorcese's After Hours) is arguably drawn from The Odyssey."

Like The Wizard of Oz. And, hey, two draw two threads together (clumsily) The Warriors. Thanks for mentioning After Hours, I'd forgotten how much I liked that pic.

-Andrew

Nah, I don't buy the idea that every picaresque story is drawn from Homer, unless you mean in a sense like all murders are drawn from the story of Cain and Abel. Sure, The Odyssey was first, but the epic journey surely predates it. The tribe's hunters or warriors gone for days or weeks or months and then wending their way home again - that had to happen for untold generations over and over again before Homer. His may be the first piece of literature that celebrates that particular piece of the human experience, but those that have followed may just be tapping into the same archetype that Homer mined.