So I just got back from the comics store, came up here, and was thinking: "wouldn't it be fun to geek out with the Q23 gang about comics every week?" What about starting a new channel on the message boards for comic books? Is anybody with me? Hello? Is this thing on?

BTW, It's amazing how great Grant Morrison's new X-Men series is. They shoulda had this thing going when the movie came out, instead of the nightmare that was Claremont's return.

Jeff Green
Dork

I want to use the "Tony the tiger on barbituates" line in the magazine somewhere.

-Scoot
Other Comic Book Dork

Yeah, I could dig that. I always wanted to talk comics when Denny was my boss (he sort of inspired me to get back into comics). I used to do comic reviews as well. Once shared space in a comic book Journal with Harlan Ellison (my comic book journalism highlight). Kinda cool having an article of mine in a sold-out edition. It's been downhill since then though....

Oh, and Jeff... I'm still waiting for assignments. Please. Pretty please :)

I'm all for comics talk, but I don't really read 'em anymore due to the ridiculous cost. The last series I read was years ago, that Knightfall stuff featuring Batman, which was really well done.

Anyone read Cerebus?
If not, we've got nothing to say...

-Andrew

Oh, I've been thinking of getting a bit more into comics again, slowly, anyone know of a good Internet Store that handles them well?

-Andrew

Seems like there are plenty of people interested in comics around here, and the topic sure comes up often enough.

I don't really read them, so I would have nothing worthwhile to contribute to the discussion -- not that that's ever stopped me before -- but I think there's plenty of support for the idea.

Who knows -- you guys might even be able to hook me on yet another time-consuming, money-wasting hobby for my wife to cry about...

Ah, comics. A subject near and dear to my heart.

Bub, Things From Another World is a good site (http://www.tfaw.com/index.html) for buying graphic novels and TPBs. I've purchased a lot of stuff from them and they've never done me wrong.

As for current comics, no offense Jeff, but X-Men is rubbish. I am, however, interested in reading Origin later this year. (For those of you who don't follow comics that closely, Origin is a limited series where Marvel will finally reveal Wolverine's true origin. Well, this year's version, anyway.)

The bext comic on the stands today: Ennis' The Punisher. The second issue "team-up" between Frank and Spider-Man is an all-time classic.

--Billy

Cerebus? Back when I was into comics, my brother and I grabbed a legit first issue of Cerebus. It was just newstand serendipity. Later my brother got the creator to sign it. He only signs the originals, too, not the pirated run that someone printed up.

Also, for those of you who don't know, I believe William Harms at one time worked in the comic book industry as a writer for the Ren and Stimpy comic before he went on to PC Gamer and then CNET's Gamecenter. Give us the inside, Billy! Tell us all about what's right and wrong with the industry.

Spoon!

Yeah, I'd have to say I love comics too, but for the same reasons as Mark mentioned, I stopped collecting. Too expensive and not enough closet space :) Getting married and having a kid didn't help the disposable income situation either.

Now, what I'd like is an annual list summarizing the best stories and pointing out the ones that were compiled into graphic novels, because those I think are easier to collect and store.

>no offense Jeff, but X-Men is rubbish.

That would have been a true statement, if it was uttered at any time during the past ten years, but it's no longer the case. It's still true of Uncanny X-men, written by Joe Casey; but Morrison's New X-men is great, as is Millar's Ultimate X-men and Milligan's new X-force. Even Claremont is doing much better on his new book with the title so goofy I can't bear to mention it (than he did in his recent return to the main books) .

>The bext comic on the stands today: Ennis' The Punisher

Haven't tried the new series, but I was pretty disappointed with the 12 issue mini-serious that Ennis did, although I love his non-Marvel work. The mini-series would have worked better as a 4-issue story -- it just wheezed to a finish at the end, as he kept recycling his ideas.

Stefan

"BTW, It's amazing how great Grant Morrison's new X-Men series is. "

He's doing Xmen now? I loved his Animal Man and Justice League and Doom Patrol (especially Doom Patrol!).

Also, I love comic talk just as long as you leave out Neil Gaiman. Say that last name and think about it... thats what i think his comics are. oh haha. Anyway, I haven't collected in well over 8 years about... except the odd one here and there... last time i was in a comic book store the clerk was rude obnoxious and smelly. I just gave up.

etc

When my parents sold the house and moved down to Florida my Mom dumped "those silly comic books of yours." Those silly comic books included a mint condition original Justice League of America issue. Oy.

"no offense Jeff, but X-Men is rubbish. "
That would have been a true statement, if it was uttered at any time during the past ten years, but it's no longer the case. It's still true of Uncanny X-men, written by Joe Casey; but Morrison's New X-men is great, as is Millar's Ultimate X-men and Milligan's new X-force"

Right. If your take on the X-Men is that they suck (which they have for SO long), then you need to pick up Morrison's new run, and X-Force, and the Ultimate line. It's a whole new ballgame. Really. I'm not sure about Claremont's new one, cuz I'm too a-scared to buy it.

Cerebus: ugh. You know, I love everything up through Church and State, and then it loses me. It just gets too preachy and moralistic for me. But I admit my interest is getting perked again now that it's finally winding down to 300...

I have to agree on the greatness of The Punisher right now. Always laugh-out-loud funny every issue.

BTW, my current comics addiction, which is absolutely out of control, I blame entirely on former CGW editor Elliott Chin, who used his Iago-like influence to suck me back into all this crap after a good 8-year layoff. Now I'm lucky if I spend less than $50 a month. The only solace I have is knowing my addiction then spread to Denny Atkin, another former addict, now addicted again. Ha ha!

Oh, and if you don't read anything else, you should be reading the amazing "Lone Wolf and Cub" books now being reprinted by Dark Horse comics.

"Oh, and Jeff... I'm still waiting for assignments. Please. Pretty please :)"

Take a number and wait in line, sim-boy. (snicker, snicker) ;-)

"Cerebus: ugh. You know, I love everything up through Church and State, and then it loses me. It just gets too preachy and moralistic for me. But I admit my interest is getting perked again now that it's finally winding down to 300..."

I hear you. High Society and Church & State 1-2 are high water marks for all comic-dom. And certainly where Sim peaked on this. I'm with it to the end, out of habit more than anything else. Even his dull gender stories are at least always interesting, plus, I figure if I can get through Reads, I can get through anything.

On another note Animal Man was great!

Gaiman is fantastic mtkafka, anyone who can make Death that adorably sexy can't be anything like the way his name sounds. I also really dig his prose, particularly Good Omens and the Sandman stuff about the Serial Killer Convention was brilliant. Fairy, yes. Horror? Definitely. Funny stuff.

For a while there I was collecting only Cerebus, Hellboy, Sin City, Astro City, and that's it. Now I believe Astro is defunct, Sin is on hiatus, as is Hellboy, and my local store stopped stocking Cerebus. Sigh.

I'll chime in one last time on the price. They need to go back to cheap paper and ink. Comics need to be about $1, because the price is prohibitive to taking risks, and there's no way they can recruit a new kid audience (unless they're rich). It's insane to pay $2.99 for a 20 minute derivative superhero read.

And... if you haven't read Daredevil: Born Again... do.

-Andrew
PS: At the risk of being controversial... Garth Ennis has always been seriously overrated.

My current favorite monthlies
"Authority"
"Planetary"
the Marvel "Ultimate" line.. the only X-men/Spiderman I've read in years

I used to collect X-men, Spiderman and Batman growing up, but as they each spawned more titles they lost me. Actually, used to collect Spawn too. Same thing.

Also, I've become addicted to TPBs.. I like gettin' alot of story all at once.
Some good ones..
"From Hell"
"Powers-Who Killed Retro Girl?"
"Ronin"
"Black Panther" (Marvel Knights)
"Punisher" (MK)
"Tom Strong" Vol1
Any "Starman"
Any "Hellboy"

Batman: Knightfall was decent, but the current stuff is, like X-Men, probably the best in its league in a long time. Particularly Detective by Greg Rucka and Shawn Martinbrough and Batman by Ed Brubaker and Scott McDaniel.

Cerebus: Has Dave Sim left his Hemingway phase yet? Actually, in seriousness, Cerebus troubles me to a serious degree. Like Jeff, I enjoyed it up until Church & State. And then, apparently, Sim had his breakdown. It's a real case of separating the creator from his work; I can usually do it, but it's really hard for me to in this case. After reading his rant about how homosexuals and women were all conspiring against him, I just have a hard time justifying putting money into his pocket.

Garth Ennis: Punisher is a straight-up comedy. It's just for laughs and isn't really even aiming for any of the seriousness of Preacher or even Hitman, and Ennis knows it.He's basically playing the funny man until he gets his bearings and does his WWII stuff. He's also doing a Nick Fury miniseries later this year. I think this is all before he can get back to doing more "substantial" stuff about WWII for Vertigo.

X-Men: It's the Brit invasion all over again. Morrison took all the great ideas of X-Men, and added his own insanely-fucked-up ideas to it. Who else would have written a character who has a miniature sun for a head? Heh. It used to be said that his Doom Patrol run was his attempt to write X-Men, and now he's doing it for real. Millar's Ultimate X-Men hit a snag with the conclusion to his Magneto storyline, but his Weapon X story so far is much, much stronger. I also want to smoke what Pete Milligan is smoking, for him to get away with so much weird shit in X-Force. I thought about trying Claremont's Extreme X-Men, but I couldn't get past "NOW IT BEGINS!" on the opening page of issue 1, heh.

Comics addiction: I further blame Jeff and Denny for getting me back. Sometimes, Denny will just email me asking if I liked the latest haul I got for the week. Damn you both!

Stories in graphic novel form: Besides Jeff's right-on recommendation for the whole "Lone Wolf and Cub" saga, a small list of the best storylines collected in graphic novel form lately:

-Ultimate Spider-Man: Power & Responsibility by Brian Michael Bendis and Mark Bagley
-Ultimate X-Men: The Tomorrow People by Mark Millar and the Kubert brothers.
-Punisher: Welcome Back, Frank by Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon
-Powers: Who Killed Retro Girl? by Brian Michael Bendis and Michael Avon Oeming
-The Inhumans by Paul Jenkins and Jae Lee
-Batman: Officer Down by way too many people to list.
-The Authority: Relentless by Warren Ellis and Bryan Hitch, followed by The Authority: Under New Management by Ellis & Hitch, with the other story arc by Mark Millar and Frank Quitely
-JLA: Rock Of Ages by Grant Morrison and Howard Porter
-JLA: Earth 2 by Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely
-Planetary: All Over The World And Other Stories by Warren Ellis and John Cassaday

I also know that a coupla months from now, Grant Morrison's and Frank Quitely's first story-arc for New X-Men, "E Is For Extinction", will be collected into a small graphic novel.

Whew! Enough comic talk for this post!

-Scoot

Ok, here's an obscure one. It probably didn't last long, but I remember a comic about a guy who wrote pulp stories back in the 20's or 30's. Does that ring any bells? I've always wanted to find those.

Also, does Doctor Strange no longer have a comic? I used to enjoy that one.

Finally, one of my favorites from childhood was the old Marvel Dracula series. You always knew Dracula wouldn't get killed, but they were good anyway. That was the first appeareance of Blade, too, I think.

One last oddball favorite. Dial H for Hero. That would make a great game.

Yeesh, you guys are geeks.

"After reading his rant about how homosexuals and women were all conspiring against him, I just have a hard time justifying putting money into his pocket."

A long time ago, I used to read Cerebus, so this really peaked my interest. I found a copy here:

http://www.tcj.com/232/tangent0.html

Luckily for womankind, it's so long and meandering that I doubt anyone's ever read the entire thing.

For a better attack on the "feminist-homosexualist axis", I suggest this:

http://www.seanbaby.com/news/nike.htm

"Yeesh, you guys are geeks."

Heh, well it will probably come as no surprise to Stefan or Supertanker, but a lot of law students seem to be comic book geeks too. I just mentioned this thread to a few of my students, and one of them opened his backpack and handed me a DC graphic novel from the '80s called "Watchmen." I've been out of the loop on comic books for so long, that I can vaguely recall a Watchmen series, but not a graphic novel. Anybody know anything about this?

One of my favorties from Dark Horse was Concrete. It was published infrequently, but Paul Chadwick did the most interesting stuff. Is the title still sputtering along?

Watchmen is one of the single greatest stories/graphic novels EVER. The novel is a collection of the mini-series, and everyone should own it.

Is Astro City really dead? I thought it was just still on "hiatus" while Kurt Busiek recovers from health problems....no?
And what's the dilly-o with Top 10? Did Alan Moore stop doing that one? I could walk across the hall here and just ask Scooter this one, but then I'd have to talk to him.

My current favorites:

Usagi Yojimbo
The Authority
Ultimate Spider-Man
The Punisher
Savage Dragon
100 Bullets
Transmetropolitan
New X-Men, X-Force

now see the can o'worms I opened here? Let's have a comics channel!

"Watchmen is one of the single greatest stories/graphic novels EVER. The novel is a collection of the mini-series, and everyone should own it."

Well my commute reading is set, then. Note to Bruce: I will NOT look mainstream on the train tonight. =)

One of my prized graphic novels is Enemy Ace: War Idyll. Autographed by George Pratt. Lovely art. Hey Denny, it's a good read for any sim-head. Took me back to my childhood reading Our Army at War with Sgt Rock and Easy Company.

Anyone into Grendel?

Agreed about Lone Wolf and Cub, got the first editions about 10 years ago. As well as Miller's Ronin. Speaking of Miller, he could have done a bang-up job on Max Payne (ala Sin City). Of course that game would have earned a true "M" rating.

Don't be dissin' Gaiman, I think he's a wonderful, original writer. If games had writers like him, we'd all be spoiled...

And to think I passed up a job with Wizard to stay at CGM. What was I thinking?

Watchmen is a massively dense deconstruction of superheroes. It's still ultimately about dudes in capes, but it's probably the best story about dudes in capes ever written.

It also has the greatest "villain speech" ever done in a comic.

Astro City is still on hiatus as Busiek struggles with his sinus problems. Kurt won't abandon that baby; he makes more money off of single issue of Astro City than any of his Marvel work. It won't be until December at the earliest, but he's still committed to it.

Top 10's "last issue", 12, is slated for next week. That means "Season One" is over, and Top 10 is just going to be a series of one-shots and graphic novels from this point on.

Geektacular!

>>Also, for those of you who don't know, I believe William Harms at one time worked in the comic book industry as a writer for the Ren and Stimpy comic...

You are correct, sir. I'm most proud of my graphic novel Abel, though.

I have read the new Morrison X-Men and I stand by my statement--rubbish. I really don't see what the big to-do is. Morrison's Animal Man was awesome, as was his Doom Patrol, but I really don't understand why people like his super-hero work. Marvel Boy was a train wreck if there ever was one, and JLA, while cool at times, never really did it for me. Same with his take on the X-Men. The new X-Force, on the other hand, is utterly brilliant.

>Also, does Doctor Strange no longer have a comic? I used to enjoy that one.

Nope. There's been talk of giving him the Marvel Knights treatment, but nothing yet.

Daredevil (when Kevin Smith isn't mucking it up) is excellent as well. I also recommend Hellboy (which Bub also mentioned). There are several collections of Hellboy stuff available and they are all excellent.

--Billy

"After reading his rant about how homosexuals and women were all conspiring against him, I just have a hard time justifying putting money into his pocket."

Yeah, Sim was really fucking around with this. I was never sure how serious he was but he really got off on the angry letters. He's moved away from that recently as he winds it up. If you think about it, 300 issues is an amazing goal and achievement. If anything, Sim makes you think and Gerard is the best backgrounder in the biz.

"You are correct, sir. I'm most proud of my graphic novel Abel, though."

And you'd be correct to be. I even have a SIGNED COPY! Still, Ren & Stimpy is amazing to me, I can't imagine how difficult it would be to create original content, and follow a bible, dealing with those two.

>Also, does Doctor Strange no longer have a comic? I used to enjoy that one.

I've been envisioning a Dr. Strange comic that would be awesome. He's an amazing character, but people just seem to have no idea what to do with him... sad. All you need to do is read Books of Magic (a great graphic novel btw) to get an idea of the potential.

Seriously all, read Books of Magic.
It's Gaiman's take on DC's mystical characters.

Also, 300 from Frank Miller. An excellent work.

-Andrew

You guys are getting to me. Now I'm going to have to buy some comics.

I skimmed that unreadable Dave Sim essay. I realized he's a nut when he talked about practicing celibacy and avoiding masturbation. Didn't Neitsche have some ideas along those same lines, something about ejaculation sapping mental powers or something?

"Didn't Neitsche have some ideas along those same lines, something about ejaculation sapping mental powers or something?"

Jeez, is that what's wrong with me? I thought I just had a head cold...

I think the visuals of the current detective comics are pretty brilliant. Besides that, the Jenny Sparks miniseries was quite compelling, and Ultimate Spiderman is very nice. I think the best read I've had this year was going back and re-reading Timm and Dini's "Mad Love". The darkest story with the lightest visuals. Great mix.

And I still think the movie Unbreakable was one of the best comic book origin stories....

Gordon,

Sim-boy, here. Would I get to the head of the line if I gave Jeff my entire collection of "Lesbian Biker Chicks in Hell"?

>All you need to do is read Books of Magic (a great graphic novel btw) to get an idea of the potential.

Books of Magic is great, although the character there that is *begging* for futher exploration is Mr. E. I mean, come on, here you have a guy who had his eyes cut out with a spoon (by his father) and he's nuts and he can time travel. It just writes itself!

I also liked Gaiman's Sandman, but in the latter half of the series I think he relied a little too much on the "retelling of an old myth" idea. They were still good reads, but Season of Mists was the last, great story in my mind.

Mark asked me earlier what was wrong with the comics, and in a lot of ways The Sandman is what is wrong with comics. Not the actual series, but the way in which DC keeps milking it. Instead of looking for the "next" Sandman, they keep digging up characters that appeared in Sandman and giving them their own books, none of which sell that well.

In fact, over the last few years, the whole Veritgo line seems to have lost its steam. They still publish some cool books, like 100 Bullets, but for the most part their line really disappoints me. I also think their failure to release Peter Milligan's Shade The Changing Man in TPBs is a capital crime. In my mind, that was their greatest book (yes, even better than Sandman) simply because each and every month Milligan tried something new, something utterly insane. It didn't always work, but when it did, it was brilliant. And I gotta respect that.

Oh, the other problem with comics is Chuck Dixon.

--Billy

This is all good for Freedom Force, because we could all be heroes in that game. Sandman or Swamp Thing or whoemver you like.

The only thing I didn't like about Gaiman is the spawns (and Mcfarlance too is the toilet!) he created, the flowery too-literary-for-there-own-good writers. Otherwise, yeah he wasn't that bad actually. But someone like Morrison is just in a class of his own. He writes intelligent w/out coming off too preachy. His dialogue in Justice League is friggin hilarious. And he respects the genre without being above it (at least in his writing) When you have a psychotic Batman (I mean a real nutball) arguing with a RA-RA! Superman... Morrison knows how to do the dialogue. Pick up his Justice League... its great!

etc

Oh and Cerebrus... good stuff, but I always liked Sergio Aragones with his Groo much more. Groo is The Simpsons of comics! or is it the other way around?

etc

"Groo is The Simpsons of comics! "

Groo was the last comic I collected for a while, about twelve years ago.

"What do you mean, slow of mind?"

I'm not a Sergio fan.
And when I say that I mean, I am fan... but I think he's horribly weak in full-comic length stories. Gimmie the old-school MAD Magazine stuff. That guy did more with a margin cartoon that a year of Groo.

-Andrew

Does anyone here still read Bone? I had kinda stopped, but then I just read 'em all last week with my 7.5 year old daughter, and she *loved* em, so that got me into it again.
I feel like he kinda lost it a little bit after a great beginning, but reading 'em again now, in a few sittings, kinda renewed my interest and respect. I love his artwork---real expressive cartoony stuff. Reminds me (not in terms of technique, but in comic effect) of Bill Watterson.

I like Neil Gaiman too, in small doses. If I read too much of him, I feel like dressing in black robes and doing interpretive dances to Dead Can Dance songs. Oh and if you ever want to see a giant conglomeration of hot looking goth chicks, go to the next Gaiman book reading. Ha-cha-cha!

I bought the first two Bone collections, Jeff, precisely because I have a daughter who will one day be 7. (On that same day I bought her a massive old school Peanuts Treasury as well.) Thanks for confirming it'd have the effect I had hoped.

(No I haven't continued following it, I'm actually surprised he's still doing it!)

And yes Jeff, Gaiman fans make terrific and exciting dates. I'd be even more certain of that had she said yes, but she only liked me as a friend you see. Tough luck for me, eh?

-Andrew
PS: Speaking of Waterston, last week The Onion AV Club ran a hilarious interview with Berke Breathed. I hope you caught it (I can link if you like).

I can't speak for all 7-year-old girls, but Sarah just totally dug it. It helps that the heroine is a little girl, and that all the bone guys are so dang adorable (not that I'm attracted to them or anything.) Yeah, he's still doing it. He took like a year hiatus, but now he's back. The story is in the "final act".

Oooh--post that Berke Breathed link, yeah! I forgot about that guy.

You know, let's scratch that idea of the comics channel. I shoulda had the CGW cover story written today. But no, I had to talk comics. Great. Goddamn you Scooter.

My pleasure Jeff, enjoy. It's actually one of the funniest (and most self-deprecating) interviews I've ever seen. It made me drag out some old Bloom County compilations and it's amazing how well they've stood up.

http://www.theonionavclub.com/avclub3728/avfeature_3728.html

-Andrew

While I was in Iowa visiting relatives, I picked up the bound Alan Moore Swamp Thing series.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0930289226/

I remember stumbling across one of the American Gothic series, the one about the underwater vampires, while my parents were out shopping at some store somewhere circa 1985. Holy cow, never read a comic book like that before... I had a whole new respect for Swamp Thing at that point. Enough to forgive the movie, anyway.

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0084745

Oh Jeff, you really found a winner there!

Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run did more to change comics that anything else. Watchmen, V-For Vendetta, Dark Knight, etc., have nothing on them.

Did that collection include Anatomy Lesson?
Imagine reading a book that basicallt followed the films story. Swampy is a guy covered in plant life. Now, imagine he gets autopsyed and we learn he IS plant life. Not only that, but he's a God like figure who, eventually, holds Gotham City itself completely hostage.

Jeff, get Saga of the Swamp Thing & Swamp Thing Love and Death trade paper backs. You won't regret it. Though, it doesn't include the American Gothic storyline... sadly.

Trivia for Vertigo fans: John Constatine (Hellblazer) debuted in Swamp Thing during this time.

>>Jeff, get Saga of the Swamp Thing & Swamp Thing Love and Death trade paper backs. You won't regret it. Though, it doesn't include the American Gothic storyline... sadly.

DC is currently reissuing all the Swamp Thing stories in TPB. Three of them have been released thus far and they're in sequential order. If you don't have them, they are a must buy.

>Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run did more to change comics that anything else.

I don't know about that. It was very influential to folks like Jamie Delano and Neil Gaiman (reread the early Sandman issues after you've read Swamp Thing and you'll see what I mean), but Dark Knight Returns single-handledly altered the entire genre of super-hero comics. It launched the grim-and-gritty style that dominated comics for over ten years (and still does, to a certain extent), and Miller's use of first-person captions, TV newcasts, and other devices are all now standard in super-hero comics. Every super-hero comic published since DKR was released has been influenced, either directly or indirectly, by Miller's little tome.

That said, Swamp Thing may have helped influence/change comics on the business side of things (in a good way) because of DC's treatment of its creators. Steve Bissette had a long-running dispute with DC regarding royalities from when he was drawing Swampy (which was eventually settled out of court, I believe) and then there's the entire treatment of Rich Veitch (who took over as writer after Alan Moore left) who resigned because DC refused to publish his "Swamp Thing Meets Jesus Story". (For those not familiar, Veitch had an extended storyline where Swampy was traveling through time, meeting important folks, and one of those people was Jesus.)

I stopped right around when Veitch started. No offense to him, but I just couldn't continue without Moore's tone. And yes, William, I meant from a business standpoint.

You're right about the newscasts, etc., Actually Dark Knight may've been the most influential but his first real stab at grim and gritty was Daredevil mid-220s.

Collected as Daredevil: Born Again.

The way he strips down the hero, makes a common, tired, and silly villain into a real threat (the Kingpin), remakes the hero completely, and then his portrayal of Captain America. Amazing stuff. I remember being floored, cause I was a kid and this was coming to my house monthly. It was a total departure from Daredevil through 220.

"Gimmie a red"

-Andrew

Gee, Bub, this thread has really brought out the dork in you. :)

Hey Bill (Harms): couldja tell us *why* you think Morrison's X-Men is "rubbish". I agree that Animal Man rocked, and that his JLA run was overrated (and at times just lame)---but I think he has really nailed the X-Men. What about it is turning you off?

--Jeff

"Gee, Bub, this thread has really brought out the dork in you."

I suppose Jeff, but you guys are the folks still collecting comics. I stopped a good 10 years ago. (And I'm only going to just *mention* Desslock's revelation re: X-Men usenet forums from another thread. That makes my skin crawl.)

Big ;> all around.

-Andrew
PS: I am curious about Morrison and the X-Men, I must admit

"I suppose Jeff, but you guys are the folks still collecting comics."

DOH!!!!

Well, thanks to Jeff and Thierry for the Watchmen recommendation. It is terrific. Almost missed my train stop reading it on the way home Friday. Looked really cool scrambling down the train aisle with this big, fat comic book in my hand. =)

Actually, Bill, you have Jeff Green to blame for getting you back into comics. It was the JLA and Batman issues he'd leave lying around in his cube that reawakened my addiction.

Did any of you guys have a 10-year hiatus from comics? I stopped reading them in college... If I had money, it was alas being spent on things like tuition, food, Bacardi, and keeping my psychotic sorority girl girlfriend happy. Then, one fateful day a few years ago, I went to the comic store with Jeff during lunch break. Picked up the just-released "The Kingdom" series and a few comics I'd read as a kid (Green Lantern, Flash etc.) I was hooked. Damn you, Green. I'd have my credit cards paid off by now...

Then I of course had to go back and find Crisis on Infinite Earths (before they republished it) so I could figure out what had happened to all the characters I knew, as they'd all had their continuity redefined. Then I had to go find Zero Hour because all the characters had had their continuity redefined again. Repeat until closet full of geeky white boxes.

I'm still reading a fair number of DC and Marvel books -- somewhat out of habit, but there are some good titles being published by both.

Some of my current favorites:
Planetary
The Authority
Top 10
Rising Stars
Midnight Nation
Powers
Hero Bear and the Kid (a MUST for Calvin and
Hobbes fans... Jeff, you should pick this
up and share it with your daughter)
The Adventures of Barry Ween, Boy Genius
(Started slow, but the 2.0 TPB is great.
Imagine Dexter's Laboratory if he talked
like a REAL kid.)
Transmetropolitan
JSA
Young Justice
Captain Marvel (Peter David cracks me up)

>>Actually Dark Knight may've been the most influential but his first real stab at grim and gritty was Daredevil mid-220s.

The collected version of Born Again includes issues 227-233, and Daredevil #227 came out in February of 1986, whereas Dark Knight # 1 came out in March of 1986 (if I remember correctly). It's really too close to say which came "first", but since Dark Knight was finished in 1985, my guess is that the Daredevil work came later and Miller simply moved elements of Dark Knight over to Daredevil, which he used again in 1987 with Batman: Year One. Does any of this mean anything in the real world? Nope, I'm just a raging comic book geek. :-)

Regardless, Born Again kicked ass and it's a shame that after Batman: Year One, artist David Mazzucchelli (who drew both Year One and the DD Born Again story) stopped drawing super-hero comics because he's awesome.

1986 was truly a mini golden age of comics. The year saw the release of Dark Knight Returns, the DD Born Again story, Byrne's The Man of Steel, the start of the Watchmen limited series, and of course Maus. That's one hell of a line-up.

The one book that I'm surprised no one has recommended yet is The Killing Joke by Alan Moore and Brian Bolland. This is a brilliant comic and the "joke" at the end is very haunting because for one brief second you catch a true glimpse of what is going on inside the Joker's deranged mind.

Also, no one has mentioned Arkham Asylum. Odd, considering we've been talking about Grant Morrison... talk about haunting.

A memorable quote (and this is from the cool journal-style character dossier at the back of the book)

"I've always loved dolls. Especially the live ones"
-The Mad Hatter

American McGee, eat your heart out.

I stand corrected on the Daredevil/Dark Knight timeline, and I had over my dork crown to you. ;)
I didn't know Mazzuchelli quit. Any idea what kind of comics he switched to?

-Andrew

>Did any of you guys have a 10-year hiatus from comics?

Even longer. I was a bit collector growing up, until the middle of high school, and started picking them up again piece-meal after I started working as a lawyer about a dozen years later. Got right back into my "collectionist" mentality for about 5 years and picked up a zillion back issues. Finally got burned out and quit again when I got depressed at how badly run Marvel was (when Joe Kelly had a great, brief run on X-men and quit because of management).

Came back again a few years later because of Claremont's return to the X-men, which was a terrible disappointment, as Jeff indicated. But I've stuck around because I like Marvel's new management. I've definitely finally shaken the "collectionist" mentality though -- these days I only pick up stuff I'm really impressed with, and don't hesitate to drop stuff -- that seems so intuitive, but so many comic buyers, including myself in the past, feel the need to grab everything in a series. I'm buying a lot of tradepaperbacks too, since I don't really care about the form of the book - just the story.

I'll probably never quit again, because I came to the realization that I just like the comics for what they are -- visual stories. That manner of presentation appeals to me. Stuff I've picked up and been into lately:

- Preacher,
- Invisibles,
- Watchment,
- Morrison's New X-men,
- Mulligan's new X-Force,
- Claremont's new X-book,
- The Authority (thanks to Thierry's insistance!)
- 100 Bullets
- Sandman.

Missed a lot of good stuff when I was a pro-marvel zealot. I still dislike DC, however, other than the Vertigo brand (and I agree with Billy on the recent state of it). By the way, cool to hear about your history in the industry, Billy -- I hadn't heard that.

Stefan

...oops, that's Watchmen.

Yeah, Arkam Asylum is great. My favorite bit is when Joker slaps Batman on the ass.

>I stand corrected on the Daredevil/Dark Knight timeline, and I had over my dork crown to you. ;)
I didn't know Mazzuchelli quit. Any idea what kind of comics he switched to?

LOL, I shall wear the crown proudly.

As for Mazzuchelli, he went on to the do the over-size comic Rubber Blanket, he does stuff for Drawn & Quarterly, and I believe he does stuff for New Yorker magazine, but I'm not 100% certain.

>Hey Bill (Harms): couldja tell us *why* you think Morrison's X-Men is "rubbish".

--Spoilers ahead--

First off, I have to say that I'm not an X-Men freak or fanatic (for instance, if Wolverine does something that seemingly contradicts something he did in issue # 158 of Uncanny, I'm not going to pitch a fit). But I do know the characters fairly well and I don't think Morrison has figured out what he's really doing with them. The interaction(s) between Wolverine and Scott was at times spot-on and at other times way off. The whole thing with Professor X saying he would never use his gun and then using it at the end didn't jive with me. I understand why Morrison wanted us to believe Professor X had changed his mind, but I didn't buy it. Professor X has a long history of standing by his values and beliefs no matter what happens and him using the gun seemed more like a plot device than an actual change to his character.

In addition, Morrison's attempts to "clue in" new readers failed horribly. Scott is not going to look at Wolverine and say: "Sentinels hunt mutants, Logan." Logan knows that; he's been fighting alongside Scott for what, ten, fifteen years? Besides, Morrison already had a character (Mr. Trask) that could be used to explain to new readers what was going on.

Beyond that, the action sequences were poorly conceived and lacked any real tension. One minute Wolverine and Scott were fighting, the next they're captured. There wasn't that smooth segue that I expected and it seemed like the story would start and stop and then start and stop.

Finally, the story was too short. There should've been at least another issue to help flesh out the destruction of Genosha, the character's reactions to it, etc. It read more like a summary of a story than an actual story.

I hope things get better, and I'll give the book a couple more issues before I drop it, but based on this initial storyline, I was pretty disappointed.

--Billy

I read on Ain't It Cool that David Fincher (Se7en, Fight Club) is doing Miller/Darrow's Hard Boiled. That should be a cool team-up.

And with Darren Aronofsky doing Miller's screenplay of Batman Year One...

Should be a couple of interesting flicks.

Good points about X-Men Bill. Professor X shooting the gun actually struck me as more of a "shock tactic" (like blowing up Genosha) rather than something consistent w/his character and the universe. But in general maybe I'm just excited and relieved that the comic doesn't SUCK like it has for so long. Even with Morrison writing it, I came into it with zero expectations of it being good, cuz jeez, if CLAREMONT could come back and make it suck even worse--what chance did anyone have? So maybe I was expecting less than you. And I still think it's much more focused, and promising, than his JLA run.

That is just wild about Aronofsky doing a Batman flick. Wow. Maybe he'll cast Ellen Burstyn in the role of Batman.

Just curious folks...

What is the oldest comic book you have?


Aside from some Illustrated Clasics from the early 50's, most of my older ones are the Neal Adams Detective Comics from the early 70s. Had DC Showcase #34 from 1961 (debut of The Atom) but it was damaged in a flooded basement....

>>So maybe I was expecting less than you.

That's possible, although my criteria is pretty simple--am I entertained? And in this case the answer is no. In fact, the more I think about it, the more disappointed I become with the story. So many cool elements, like the Sentinels that rebuild themselves, were never fully explored. I wanted a three to four page fight scene where Wolverine is fighting against them only to be slowly overwhelmed. And the attack on Genosha woulda been better if we'd seen it in more detail.

>What is the oldest comic book you have?

Hawkman # 1 from 1964. I used to have a Green Lantern # 4 from 1942 but I had to sell it when I was in college.

--Billy

A question...are there any tradeback JLA novels? I find mysefl enjoying the additional depth required oif the writer when writing these dime novels. I too fell off comic collecting, but still enjoy reading novels about them. The life and Death of Superman was great (very Recomended) and the Avengers and Nick Fury Novels were pretty good too. The Wildcard series was outstanding, though not an actualy comic it was a great novel series I couldn't put down in high school. I just wish i hadn't lost them, I want to read them again but they are sooooo far out of print its sad. On the other hand, I didn't really like the Spiderman, Hulk or X-men novels though. At least not the first ones that came out when novelizations first started for comics.

Re: Professor X in NXM, Morrison does have a tendency to hit the readers with shock tactics; Mark Millar apparently picked up that tactic from his tutelage under Morrison.

Though, the xmen newsgroup has some insane sounding idea that sounds like something Morrison would do, based on his Invisibles work.

Despite Billy's qualms, and other ones people online have made, I still think Morrison has grown a lot from his JLA days (Marvel Boy was just Morrison exorcising his utterly insane bent when it comes to writing weird sci-fi, IMO), and to me, he's taken the classic ideas of Claremont, and revitalized them with his own fucked-up style.

I agree that the story arc was too short. From reading Authority, I find that four issues seems to be the optimum number. Six can be too long, and anything under four tends to feel rushed and underdeveloped. I hope that he can write an X-Men story as great as Rock Of Ages, which I still think is the best JLA story ever done.

Also, Billy, did you read Mark Millar's run on Swamp Thing? I have yet to look at it, but I heard pretty good things about it, but I'm always interested in other people's opinions.

Jason: Take your time with Watchmen. It rewards deep examination. The easiest, and most visible example is "Fearful Symmetry", in which the entire issue is laid out symmetrically. I gotta find other examples, but Moore's scripts are notorious for being insanely detailed, and often asking the impossible (the best example is saying "V, back towards us, is smiling" from "V For Vendetta").

As for my pull list, here goes (this will also serve as a personal reminder to start purging some comics from my list):

The Authority
New X-Men
X-Force
Daredevil
Punisher
Ultimate Spider-Man
Ultimate X-Men
Ultimate Team-Up
Batman
Detective Comics
Transmetropolitan
The Monarchy
Planetary
Powers
Elektra
100 Bullets
Hellblazer (more Vertigo trivia: Alan Moore specified Sting as the model for JC's look in his script)
Queen & Country
Black Panther
Lone Wolf and Cub
JLA
Green Arrow
Tangled Web

Sad thing is, there are still more titles in the pipeline that I plan to pick up.

Also, final note: Apparently, Dave Sim cited an Onion story as proof of the homosexual evil in America. He, of course, has no idea what the hell kind of paper the Onion is, and his championing of the Onion news story about LA's Gay parade just makes him more laughable, in my eyes.

I'll look at issue #300, just to see if Cerebus indeed dies alone and unmourned.

>Also, Billy, did you read Mark Millar's run on Swamp Thing?

Yep. It was horrible. So horrible in fact, that I remember being surprised when I read that he was getting work after the book got cancelled. And yes, I'm being serious. I think he's a horrible writer.

>...revitalized them with his own fucked-up style.

I really don't see any evidence of that. There is nothing in those three issues that hasn't been done elsewhere in super-hero comics and I really didn't see anything that was particularly fucked up. (Unless you count Wolverine calling Professor X "Chuck".) Now, if he would've had Emma try to seduce the Beast or Professor X, then I would agree with you. :-)

--Billy

>What is the oldest comic book you have?

X-men 1.

>There is nothing in those three issues that hasn't been done elsewhere in super-hero comics and I really didn't see anything that was particularly fucked up.

I think Morrison's characterizations are off - inconsistent with what's come before, at least. One of the reasons I like Claremont's latest book is because the characterizations are so great - and I love those wacky characters. Morrison's Prof. X is off, his wolverine is simplistic, cyclops is deliberately off-kilter, and we haven't really seen much characterization of the other characters.

But Morrison's stories - and I'm partially judging this by his work on the Invisibles, but I already feel this way about his 4 issue X-men run, are engaging because they're dynamic -- a lot happens, and it's not always predictable (and I'm not just talking about his treatment of character death). The entire X-men run in the 90s was terrible, with the exception of the brief Joe Kelly run, because the characters were stagnant. Claremont's style may be stiff compared to newer writers (but hey, compare him to Roy Thomas or Stan before that), but at least a lot happened when he wrote the book. I think Morrison has brought that aspect back.

I can't believe Erik Larson actually recently argued that Marvel should never change the characters because that was 'unfair' to new readers. Cripes, if I wanted to read stories about unchanging characters, I'd read Archie books. That's also why the Bond movies have been so terrible for a quarter century.

But Morrison's Prof. X line in the last issue: "to me, my X-men", is probably one of the single worst lines I've read in a few years.

Stefan

---

Quote:

X-men 1.

---

If you don't mind, can anyone perhaps recommend some good starting points for those of us who haven't read comics since junior high?

(What I've always disliked about comics was the feeling of coming into the middle of something; that if I wasn't there for Issue #1, I shouldn't bother in the first place)

I'm not sure I could recommend anything right now since I've been out of it for awhile. However, when I started reading Spider-Man, X-Men, Captain America, The Hulk, etc. I came in with some hundred issues or more of continuity before that. Provided the writers are half-decent, you really should be fine doing this. They will relate past events as needed to bring you up to speed.

This is much easier done with the more popular heroes since their origins are so well-established. I'd recommend something like Spider-Man simply based on how easy it is (usually) to pick up what's going on. Some of the DC fans can probably recommend Batman or Superman similarly.

One thing I always thought was hard to grasp is all the indie books if you don't have any idea what they are. They are definitely a tougher sell if they're already some fifty issues into their continuity. It usually gets expensive to try to purchase back issues for these titles as well.

The whole artform is somewhat "throw-away" anyway. I've always thought that the best comic book makers understood this and fed on it. Good one or two issue self-contained stories that have small effects on the characters are better in the long run. Life changing events only lead to a more difficult time

--Dave

GORDON: (What I've always disliked about comics was the feeling of coming into the middle of something; that if I wasn't there for Issue #1, I shouldn't bother in the first place)

This is also one of the stupidest things about modern comics. Continuously relaunching books to appeal to people who dislike coming into the middle of something. No offense Gordon, but "Issue #1-ism" is a curse.

Gordon, you want an entry point? Pick a graphic novel of the many listed here. They tend to be self-contained.

-Andrew
PS: Thank you Thierry, for mentioning V for Vendetta, a truly excellent story.

>I can't believe Erik Larson actually recently argued that Marvel should never change the characters because that was 'unfair' to new readers.

It's not just Erik saying that, but the head guys at Marvel are too. I read an interview recently where EIC Joe Quesada said much the same thing, about how Peter Parker should never have gotten married, etc. His reasoning was that younger readers should have a character they can relate to; of course, this seems to fly in the face of the average comic book reader, which is a guy in his mid-20's. Most comics aren't read by kids these days, and that is a problem most publishers seem unwilling or unable to address.

>If you don't mind, can anyone perhaps recommend some good starting points for those of us who haven't read comics since junior high?

What kind of comics do you like? Before jumping into an ongoing series, though, I'd recommend picking up a few TPBs.

--Billy

My favorite series was still Spidey vs. Carnage. Spidey vs. Venom was good, too... Actually, I'm a sucker for anything Spidey-related.

If you really don't want to deal with continuity baggage, then Marvel's Ultimate line actually is a pretty good place to start, Gordon, since they essentially relaunched Spidey and X-Men. And the Spidey series, by Brian Michael Bendis, is great. WAY better, IMHO of course, then the "regular" Spidey continuity. You're only 10+ issues behind--and they're mostly in a trade now anyhoo, I think.

The new X-Force is unbelievably weird and cool, and they're only 3 issues (4 after this week) into the new deal. Get on that one before Marvel cancels it for being too strange.

I have a million more recommendations, but if I keep talking comics instead of doing my job today, CGW will be looking for a new EIC again (Hey--shuddup, all of you).

"This is also one of the stupidest things about modern comics. Continuously relaunching books to appeal to people who dislike coming into the middle of something. No offense Gordon, but "Issue #1-ism" is a curse."

It's not missing out on the first issues I dislike, it's not getting a story that starts and ends in the same issue. In the old, old days it was unusual for a comic to have an arcing storyline that went more than one issue. You might be a casual Flash fan and just grab one every once in awhile, but that was ok because the issue would be self-contained. Now everything's continued from the previous issue and continued to the next issue. I dislike that. It makes it hard for me to just pick up a mag now and then, and I don't like dropping $15 on the graphic novels.

That, and the price in general are what keep me away from the comics.

That's a good point Mark. Even more odious is the practice of having a story crossover to several, if not all, books.

But I think Mark hit on why comics have such a diminished future, and it isn't as Queseda believes - because Parker got married - it's that there's so little that's kid friendly now. Not only do you have to pick up every issue, as Mark said, you've got to pick up every title a company offers. Whim purchasing is prohibative... and comics used to be all about the whim.

Instead they're relying on selling and appealing to exclusively to Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons("Worst Business Practice Ever!" and, er, no offense to present company intended). What kind of real future is there? I see smaller and smaller returns, until only old people buy comics and only professionals can afford to.

-Andrew

>and it isn't as Queseda believes - because Parker got married - it's that there's so little that's kid friendly now. Not only do you have to pick up every issue, as Mark said, you've got to pick up every title a company offers.

Actually I think Quesada has done some good stuff in that regard -- aside from the Ultimate line, which is what I think he was referring to when he stated the quote that Billy mentioned -- he's definitely been a zealot about making each title "stand-alone", minimizing interaction between titles. And within each title, he's a big advocate of having discrete story arcs of no more than 3-6 issues (and often one or two issue stories, and just generally making issue issue more self-contained, even if it's part of a larger arc) -- so a new reader may come into the middle of a storyline, but he or she will only be an issue or two away from a new jumping on point. It also makes titles more convenient to aggregate for trade paperbacks, as well, which Marvel has traditionally gotten killed at by DC and other publishers, even though Marvel completely dominates monthly sales.

>"Uncanny X-Men" #1 or the later "X-Men" series?

The original -- it wasn't called "Uncanny X-men" until about issue 142 or so.

>If you don't mind, can anyone perhaps recommend some good starting points for those of us who haven't read comics since junior high?

Definitely buy a few trade paperbacks -- they're generally self-contained stories, and you can sample a number of different things. Frankly, I actually think it's a preferable way of reading comics these days, if you could have some assurance that everything was going to be distributed that way (which it isn't). All of the recommendations people have made prior in this thread are good ones.

I also really liked the newstand-style "Marvel Ultimate" and "Marvel Knights" magazines, which compiled a few issues from different comics in a physically larger format, but they were recently cancelled.

Stefan

"Instead they're relying on selling and appealing to exclusively to Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons("Worst Business Practice Ever!" and, er, no offense to present company intended). What kind of real future is there? I see smaller and smaller returns, until only old people buy comics and only professionals can afford to."

They've already marginalized themselves. Whether they get smaller, who knows? I don't see a big future for them because there seems to a generation growing up without comics. My kids don't see comics because they're less of a mass market item now, and they don't ask for them. What's going to turn them into comic book customers when they have their own income to toss around?

OTOH, I guess they do pretty well in Japan.

---

Quote:

It's not just Erik saying that, but the head guys at Marvel are too. I read an interview recently where EIC Joe Quesada said much the same thing, about how Peter Parker should never have gotten married, etc. His reasoning was that younger readers should have a character they can relate to; of course, this seems to fly in the face of the average comic book reader, which is a guy in his mid-20's. Most comics aren't read by kids these days, and that is a problem most publishers seem unwilling or unable to address.

---

>Sorry for the big quote, but you answered your own question.

Well, it reallly wasn't my question. It's a problem that comic book publishers have been dealing with for over ten years now. Marvel, like Stefan already mentioned, is addressing this situation with their Ultimate line, but even that is a flawed approach. In terms of raw numbers, most comics are sold in comic shops, a place that most kids don't have access to and a place that parents don't want to visit. And this leaves newsstand distribution, which has been shrinking in importance (with the sole exception of Archie Comics) for the past several years.

So what we have in place is a system that makes finding and buying comics (for new readers) a big hassle. As awesome as Comic Relief is, the average consumer doesn't want to go there--they want to go to Border's or Barnes and Noble. And those places don't sell monthly comics.

Thankfully, Marvel is finally making an effort to release a large catalog of TPBs that will then be available through "traditional" book stores. Dark Horse and DC already have a large catalog of TPBs; hopefully with Marvel on board they will throw what weight they (Marvel, DC, Dark Horse) have around and get better shelf space for all TPBs.

Of course, that requires planning and cooperation, two things the comic industry has never been very good at.

--Billy

Thanks, Bub, for the link to the Breathed interview. I was a huge Bloom County fan in my "yoof."

My oldest comic? I haven't looked at them for a long time, but think I might have a single-digit or two Mighty Avengers in the closet.

Does anyone remember the late '70's House of Mystery comics from DC? Back when it was a big "dollar comic," and full of wierd tales? I used to love that one.

As for oldest comics, I have a long box of comics from my youth, stretching from 1970 through 1983. Those are the oldest that I bought "new."

However, upon determining that I've had farts with better plots than a typical Ron Marz story, I decided that someday I *will* write Green Lantern. So I managed to, over the course of about three years, collect every issue of the 1960s/70s Green Lantern. Well, from issue 5 on -- I bought the "archive" edition for issues 1-4 because they're too expensive even in cruddy condition.

Gordon,

I'd definitely suggest picking up some graphic novels to get back into things, rather than trying to pick titles up off the newsstand. That way you don't end up coming in the middle of a story.

Good choices:
Batman: The Dark Knight Returns
Batman: A Death in the Family
Kingdom Come (check out the amazing art)
Watchmen
Kurt Busiek's Astro City (these are great,
start with "Life in the Big City")
Crisis on Infinite Earths (if you want to
see why all the DC heroes seem kinda
different now.)
Powers: Who Killed Retro Girl
The Batman "No Man's Land" graphics novels
Marvels

If you make it through that list, check with me for more. :-)

Here are some non-super hero suggestions:

Hellboy: Wake the Devil
Hellboy: The Right Hand of Doom
Hellboy: The Chained Coffin and Others
Sin City
Sin City: That Yellow Bastard
Sin City: A Dame to Kill For
Preacher (start with the first one)
Bone (start with "Out from Boneville")
Stray Bullets
Plastic Forks
Metropol

From the book channel:

Tom: I suppose it's nifty, as far as comic books go (what do I know), but they don't compare.

Well, they're not meant to be compared because they're two entirely different mediums. People read Chandler because they like the way his prose reads; people read Sin City because they like the way Miller writes and illustrates. And it's that marriage of art and story that makes the truly great comics great and comics a unique storytelling medium.

As for Sin City, I would count the original Sin City and Sin City: That Yellow Bastard as two of the best comics ever produced.

--Billy

"Well, they're not meant to be compared because they're two entirely different mediums."

I agree, which is why I posted what I did. Someone recommended Sin City based on someone else's mention of Chandler. That's like me recommending West Side Story to a Shakespeare buff. Apples and oranges.

Having said that, I thought Sin City was pretty cool. And I don't even like comics!

-Tom

"Someone recommended Sin City based on someone else's mention of Chandler. That's like me recommending West Side Story to a Shakespeare buff. Apples and oranges."

I dunno, there was actually no real comparison made except in someone else's (your) post Tom. Also, I think a Shakespeare buff is likely to find West Side Story interesting on the same level that a Chandler or noir fan might find Sin City interesting. Apples and oranges? No. Apples and pears, maybe.

William, I'd put "A Dame to Kill For" up there too. It's gone sort of downhill since "That Yellow Bastard".

-Andrew

"This is also one of the stupidest things about modern comics. Continuously relaunching books to appeal to people who dislike coming into the middle of something. No offense Gordon, but "Issue #1-ism" is a curse."

.....along with the butt-floss thongs, and stories that are spread across 10 comics, and characters that never, ever change.

I've got about 15 long boxes of comics which you'll have to pry out of my cold, dead hands, but enough is enough. The comic companies have pissed me off for the last time - which is a shame, because I'm hearing good things about CrossGen.

The last comic I read was Preacher. Some of the stuff in that comic was fall-down hilarious. (The Sexual Investigators, The Messiah, etc). Unfortunately, Ennis totally wimped out on the final arc. Wanker. :)

Has anyone read anything by Joe Sacco? I recently read something by him called "Safe Area Goražde" which I guess is a "graphic novel." I don't enjoy comics but I found his presentation very effective.

He apparently also wrote one called "Palestine" about his time in the occupied territories. Anyone familiar with this?

".....along with the butt-floss thongs, and stories that are spread across 10 comics, and characters that never, ever change. "

The only butt-floss thong I would mind would be the one they put on Rhino. Other than that, it's okay with me.