I read this very good article when it originally appeared in the June edition of Computer Games, but didn't give it too much thought. Rereading it online, I realize I'm at the point where my 2 PCs are performing OK in the games and applications I use but they are starting to have some performance issues.

My wife is an avid photoshop user who has purchased or downloaded a wide variety of filters, effects and other add-ons. With some of the file sizes and effects she uses, our 500 mhz PIII + 256MB RAM + Radeon AIW is pushed pretty hard. My dilemma with this system is whether to do an easy upgrade to a 800 mhz PIII ($180) or to do a complete MB/Processor/RAM upgrade ($250-500). BTW, if you live in the Decatur / Springfield / Champaign, IL region and see some Rick Springfield concert posters, my wife designed those.

My other PC is OK in most regards (800 mhz Athlon Classic + 256MB RAM) but uses a Voodoo 3 3000 video card. I bought Tribes 2 but have been afraid to even install it on this PC due to the system requirements described in most reviews. My quandry is what video card to purchase (I know, I know, THE most asked question on any hardware message board or magazine Q&A, but I can't help it). The Radeon 64MB card is at a good price point ($170), words with the same drivers as my other machine and is not a nVidia card. I am drawn somewhat to the Geforce 3, but at a $350-400 price range, I can't bring myself to pay that for a video card.

In both of these instances, the upgrades I am considering feel more like six month upgrades rather than 18-24 month upgrades. Does anyone have a good rule of thumb to share?

-DavidCPA

*For the professionals on the board - If don't take a tax deduction for at least a part of the cost of upgrades to your "work" PC, you should probably talk to a tax professional about doing so.

I used to have a 32MB Radeon on my work machine and didn't like it much. It was fine, I guess, but I never got very good performance or great reliability from it. Could have been other things though. I used it to replace a GeForce 2 MX which in turn replaced a Voodoo 5 5500; the MX died and the Voodoo bit. :-=)

I just read the article as well and it is well written and makes a lot of good points. I will take issue with a couple of things though:

The whole $2000 a year ago thing is too high IMO. Maybe if you throw in a monitor you might hit that high but the rig Dave Long setup on mwave and linked to was what $1000? and seemed like it would hold up for a year fairly easily.

The other thing which is just a sign of age of the article is that GeForce 3s never cost $529. They started off at $400 and can be found online for $339 or so. A point that isn't Jason's fault but doesn't hold true now.

-- Xaroc

If your wife uses Photoshop, definitely upgrade your RAM. I use 512 MB at home (and with 256 MB DIMMs selling for ~$50, why not?), and I'd recommend that as a working minimum for most graphics software (I run Bryce, Paint Shop Pro, Rhinoceros, et al).

The RAM upgrade will also be more long-term. I don't anticipate the RAM requirements for games (most graphics software will use as much as you can throw at it) increasing significantly in the near future.

"If your wife uses Photoshop, definitely upgrade your RAM. I use 512 MB at home (and with 256 MB DIMMs selling for ~$50, why not?), and I'd recommend that as a working minimum for most graphics software (I run Bryce, Paint Shop Pro, Rhinoceros, et al)."

I will probably upgrade the RAM to 384MB on her machine. That is the most the motherboard can handle. My wife is interested in Bryce. What has been your experience with the program?

I have been using 256 mb's of ram on my home machine for over 2 years now. I think it is probably one of the sole reasons my low end rig can still run the latest games. Ram is definitely a worthwhile investment.

"I used [a 32MB Radeon] to replace a GeForce 2 MX which in turn replaced a Voodoo 5 5500"

OMIGOD, Robert. What the heck are you doing to your computer? LOL, I have never had a video card die on me. I usually just pull them out set them aside when I can't take the marketing hype anymore and feel I *must* have a new video card. Although I did have a Viewsonic monitor go up in a cloud of smelly smoke one day... but that's another story.

Damnit, I gotta tell Justin again that the column isn't called "The Hard Wire" anymore. We changed the name to "Technicalities" to coincide with the magazine. Even last month was called that. He musta forgot.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that column might have actually been in the May issue. Regardless, it's woefully out of date. Sorry about that.

Dave - for the Photoshop machine, you might want to look into a whole motherboard/processor/RAM upgrade, but do it in like 2 months. By then those nForce motherboards should be out--the extra memory bandwdith and DASP (basically a level 3 cache) would help a lot. Or, if you get a Pentium 4 (no nForce motherboard), you also get a whole mess of memory bandwidth and RAMBUS prices are falling pretty good. Either way, faster CPU speed and more memory would definitely help when using huge files with photoshop, but it only goes so far. Increasing memory bandwidth and hard drive performance (CPU utilization and speed) will do a lot, as will using a better OS. Windows 98/ME struggles to make GOOD use of more than 192MB of RAM. Windows 2000 and the upcoming XP will very effectively use gigabytes of RAM if you have it.

For the other machine - that Voodoo3 is holding you back BIG time. Best bang for the buck right now is to find a good price on a GeForce2 GTS (the "regular" GeForce2, not MX, not Ultra). Or, if you want to spend a touch more, a GeForce2 Pro. Those GeForce3 cards are totally great and a LOT more future-proof, but like you said, it's a big chunk of change.

Jason,

You article did appear in the June issue that came out in early May or late April as is the practice for most monthly magazines. Technicalities debuted in the July 2001 issue.

Thanks for the recommendations. I have definately been mulling the OS upgrade. Win 2000 was very tempting, but with XP nearing release, I am postponing an OS upgrade till the final XP release has been out for a couple of months. I may even wait till XP service pack 1 or so.

-DavidCPA

"BTW, if you live in the Decatur / Springfield / Champaign, IL region and see some Rick Springfield concert posters"

See, and Steve Bauman made fun of me for listening to Rick Springfield's greatest hits. Just to spite him, I'm putting it on right now. Take that Bauman!

As for upgrades-- you can't beat a pre-built and tested Athlon CPU, heatsink/fan, motherboard, and memory combo. Just drop it into your existing case, plug in your drives, video card, etc, and you're good to go. Incredible price/performance.

Please note-- I STRONGLY recommend buying all four parts listed above from the same vendor in a pre-tested configuration. Maybe even throw in a case while you're at it. That is, unless you are very comfortable with hardware troubleshooting.

Wumpus! Welcome back! Long time no hear, buddy.

I have to second Wumpus' comments about getting an Athlon rig as an assembled and tested package, unless you're an incurable tinkerer. After years of putting together systems with Intel CPUs, I bought an Athlon 900, fan/heat sink, and motherboard last November. I consider myself very competent when it comes to configuring hardware and software, but it took me over a week to iron out all of the problems. That said, it's been a good system for me since.

You might also want to think about a new case if you go the Athlon route. My old desktop case didn't cut the mustard for two reasons: An inadequate power supply, and poor ventilation. These beasts draw a lot of power, and they run hot. I ended up getting an Inwin mid-tower case with a 300W power supply and putting an extra fan into it; the case draws the air in at the bottom and blows it out near the top. AMD's web site has reference materials that specify the cooling requirements for Athlon CPUs.

Thanks for the pointers. And, yeah, Athlons can be a pain. The first time I put together an Athlon set, I didn't get the fan mounted quite right, and burned up the processor in -- literally -- a matter of seconds. Yes, they do run hot. I wasn't aware of the case specifications, though. Thanks for that little tidbit. I'll look into when I upgrade, which should be soon...(Anybody have any clue how long I've been saying that?)

I will add a third to Wumpus' claim about prebuilt systems. I have grabbed pre-overclocked motherboards with CPUs twice now and have been very happy.

Make sure to also buy the memory from the same place unless you have had it work in an Athlon before or buy it from a place like Crucial. It will save you headaches. I had a bad stick of ram that was causing all sorts of issues with my first K7 system. Once I replaced it with Crucial pc133 it worked great.

The place I have used for prebuilt o/c systems is Outside Loop Computers. I highly recommend them. Their customer support is 2nd to none. I received a phone call in response to a simple email request and the owner of the place spent a lot of time helping me figure out why my system was unstable when it turned out he didn't even sell me the memory that was causing the problem.

"My wife is interested in Bryce. What has been your experience with the program?"

Overall, it gives a lot of bang for the buck. The newest version (Bryce 5) is about to come out, and it supposedly adds a lot of really interesting features (soft shadows, a tree lab that looks very similar to the one in Vue d'Esprit).

It really depends on what she wants to do with it. Bryce is hands down the best prosumer landscape generator, but it lacks any real modelling tools (you can create primitive shapes and do some basic stuff such as Boolean add, subtract, etc.). It has a decent (albeit rather slow) renderer. It's got an excellent shader lab that can produce really impressive proceedural shaders, although that takes some practice. I'd recommend it, certainly.

Another good program is Eovia's Carrara. I hear that they are bundling it with Amapi now (which is a great NURBS modeller--almost as good as Rhino). Carrara has one of the best renderers you'll find for under $1000 (trueSpace's renderer is actually even better, but the rest of the application is clumsy and difficult to use).

Has Carrara improved at all since it was wrested from Metacreations' hands? I seem to recall it was cursed with a host of awful bugs. (And after my experiences with the somewhat clunky RDS 5, I wasn't too eager to take a chance on Carrara...)

I was thinking about Vue d'Esprit because of its tree generator, but if Bryce 5 is coming out with one, maybe I should wait. :-)

Actually, I didn't have a lot of problems with Carrara 1.0 (although I know some people did). The only recurring bug was that it would crash every single time I went to exit the program. Annoying, but not really a problem since I was closing the program anyway. Eovia released version 1.1, which fixed that bug (and apparently a lot of the bugs that other people had encountered as well). I use Carrara off and on currently, mostly because Bryce doesn't do soft shadows (yet).

RDS was indeed very clunky. Carrara's interface is worlds better, although they still have the same clunky Four Elements-based code for making terrains and such.

I'm really mixed on Vue. On the one hand, it does some really impressive stuff with vegetation. On the other, I don't really like the look of Vue renders, and that's kind of a problem. Bryce also has much better shaders.

Something I haven't seen anyone mention in this thread - worry about volume. My friend's Athlon sounds like a jet engine with that power supply and mega-fan.

I ended up one of the quiet PSUs from here, and it was well worth the $120 I shelled out. The CPU fan isn't as quiet, but it's pretty good. Next time I upgrade harddrives I'm going for the most silent thing I can find, too.

Oh, yeah--that's right. My rig has five fans in it! One on the CPU, one on the motherboard chipset(!), one on the video card, one in the power supply, and an extra exhaust fan in the back. It's like the frippin' Cave o' the Winds in here. whooooooossshhhhhhh

Thanks Murph!

I concur with Jason. As for fan/heatsinks, try to avoid the 7,000 RPM fans (typically called "delta black label"). They are not just loud, but _EXTREMELY_ loud. Lots of people complain about them.

Another good point was brought up about the case; it helps to have a certified power supply as well as proper case fans (2) for cooling that hot CPU.

5? that's all? :)

i don't want to count how many there are in my main machine.. it's not even funny anymore...

i kinda looked at it one day, blinked my eyes a couple times, shook my head, and was like.. wtf was i thinking? this isn't some rice burner, and i'm NOT a riceboy here. i don't need to 'trick out' my freakin computer case with 43 fans (of variable sizes, speeds and so on) to have the machine run "cool". and my computer nerd friends were impressed momentarily, but what do they care?

... ok, so i just counted. 14 fans. probably. i haven't opened up the case, but i know the locations well. geez... you think cave o' the winds? it ain't nothin' ;)

- mike - erm.. anyone wanna buy some spare fans? ;) -

I named my current computer "The B-17" in honor of the four main fans responsible for case airflow. However, that does not count the fan in the power supply, or on the CPU (Golden Orb), or on the graphics card (Blorb). So, I've only got a wussy seven fans in it. I have spaces for two more to do airflow across the drive bay, so I could go up to nine without buying a Dremel. None of them are fast fans, though, so the whole thing is pretty quiet despite keeping the case between two and four degrees (F) above ambient.

I installed a new athlon and fan without a problem.. though i was extra cautious with the cpu and fan... i did like 3 test runs before finally attaching the fan/cpu to the board. I do have an inwin case fan, it does get a bit loud, but im already used to its hum. Otherwise the hottest i get the cpu is about 52 deg. Celsius...which does seem a bit hot, but at rest its at about 40.

getting the athlon was my best upgrade i ever did. you can currently get a good athlon 1.33 266fsb with a abv avg mobo for less than 250 dollars. thats alot of power for the cost of less than a new gforce 3!

also, make sure bios and via drivers are up to date... i updated them asap when i built my pc and had no prblems ever since.

etc

Hunh... I've been running an overclocked Celeron [email protected] for the last two years. I've only tweaked up the voltage by .05 and it has a fan in front sucking air in and one for the power supply going out the back. There's the processor with its Intel factory standard fan (boxed processor) and the one on the GeForce2.

Only once did I have a heat problem and that was because the air conditioning wasn't on and it was like 95 degrees outside and in. :)

BTW, that [email protected] might be the greatest deal of all time. I spent like $300 for the processor with Abit BH6 motherboard two years ago. Compared with comparable speed processors at the time (450 was the highest PII), it was an absolute steal!

Upgrading this Fall... at least a 1.4GHz Athlon by then... I was playing with Multiwave's shopping cart again. (Do it Chick. You know you want to. Just click the button marked MAKE PURCHASE... :)

--Dave

Hey, Dave, I know I say things like this a lot, but that 417.00 mobo/CPU combo you've got in your cart you can get at pricewatch.com for 229. That's nearly a $200 savings...Any particular reason that your sticking with Multiwave? I know that they're really reliable and all, but two hundred bucks seems like a lot to me...Especially considering some of the vendors at pricewatch. They're pretty reliable, too...

Actually the cost on pricewatch once you get into the real named mbs (Asus, Abit, etc) is @ $280 then throw in 512MB of (quality ram and you are at $380 which isn't much cheaper.

Granted. My two cents: We have used pricewatch to get parts for computers that we've built for our customers several, several times, usually just going with "the cheap stuff." We like Asus motherboards as much as the next guy, but we've had no bad experiences with stuff like the ECS K7VZA, which is usually the one listed on PW. Every one that we've built has been fine. We've never had problems. I can understand wanting peace of mind, and that's worth an extra $200, then that's your choice. I don't think I'd pay it, though.

It is actually an extra $50 (or $100 for Dave's combo) not $200. The extra $100 is for the RAM which you may or may not need.

If you use "cheap stuff" -- which we have, and it worked every time thus far -- you can pick up 512MB for $39. Ultimately, though, it all boils down to priorities and personal preference. If every upgrade I ever got was going to cost me $400, I'd probably never upgrade. As is, if I can do it $150-$200 at a time, then it's more likely to happen, even if I wind up spending $500 or even $750 over the course of a couple of months. In little pieces, it feels like I'm not spending as much.

Xaroc, I've often said that I wished I had your upgrade budget!!

Ah sorry, I didn't realize you were throwing in RAM there too. That would save you another $60 so that is like $110 for peice of mind.

If I weren't going to overclock I would say ok the MB can be whatever since that doesn't seem to have much of an effect otherwise.

That being said I will always pay extra for quality RAM because bad RAM is very hard to diagnose unless it just flat out doesn't work.

I have mentioned before the bad stick of RAM that caused me a ton of problems and I had no idea that it was the culprit. Hardest thing I have had to track down. I thought it was sound, power supply, video, cooling, I must have futzed around with it for 3 weeks.

And yeah my budget has been nice but considering my company skipped our May raises and bonuses and has started to lay people off I don't think it is going to last. Hopefully this economy turns around so I can get back to putting outrageous sums of money into my machine. :)

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Quote:

If I weren't going to overclock I would say ok the MB can be whatever since that doesn't seem to have much of an effect otherwise.

---

Personally, I don't really want to skimp on the core of my system. I want a name brand motherboard that's widely used and tested by lots of consumers. I have a large group of guinea pigs to draw from with the Abit board including a few that contacted me after my initial posting awhile back. I wouldn't buy ASUS because they're actually more expensive than the Abit board and I don't think the extra $20 is worth it.

It sounds like you're not building for yourself either which is what I'm doing. If I was building a PC for a workplace, I'd look at price as my bottom line. I don't do that at home. Price figures into it, but when I'm only upgrading my motherboard and chip once every two years, I'm going to get something that is rated highly on performance, price and stability. I don't want the hassles of a return and I also don't want to have to replace something within a year. I paid $280 for a GeForce2 about a month after release so I don't always go "cheap".

I have to admit that I often feel "dirty" when I look at the retailers at Pricewatch. I feel like any one of them could rip me off at any time. Pricewatch is no guarantee of a retailer's legitimacy. Since I've dealt with Multiwave a number of times (3 PCs I've built and about 4 others that friends built with parts from there), I feel confident going there. The only place I've used outside of them is buy.com for a hard drive and some RAM which was also a good deal.

I looked briefly at newegg.com also and I didn't like their product listings on the site. I had a hard time discerning what was what. Stuff like that turns me off immediately. Price wasn't too much less there anyway.

Consider also that I threw a nice case in that bucket too. The link above includes mobo, processor, RAM, case and assembly and testing before I get it.

--Dave

I can definitely understand paying extra for testing and assembly, I'll admit that. As fun as it is to assemble personally, it's good to know that it's all going to go smoothly. Having burned up a processor once before because I didn't get everything put together just right, I sure wouldn't want that to happen to me -- and I wouldn't want to have to jump through hoops to get RAM to work, either. On the flipside, price is an issue with me. A big one. Not that we're broke or anything, but I just have a problem spending large wads of cash on something that I don't "need."

You're right about one thing, though. When we build computers for our customers, they're usually people that have never had a computer before and won't go near a game with them. So it is different. Like I said, though, I still have to balance price and performance.

A lot of the vendors at Pricewatch are really good vendors. Sure, some of them look pretty scummy, but some of them aren't. Usually it's pretty fair to judge by their website and written warranties, etc. But I understand playing it safe, too.

I wasn't attacking your choice -- I just wanted to make sure that you couldn't get the same thing for less. If you know the difference, and think that it's worth paying for, then that's all good.

i dont want to advertise, but Newegg was quick and easy with my order...theres a few sites that have feedback on pricewatch vendors... i forgot the website...anyway, Newegg was particualrly good with my one order...ordered it sunday got it wednesday on 2 day fedex delivery. though, im only one order out of many.

A good motherboard should cost at least about 100 id say... also you dont need the onboard sound and video card, that could save about 30 bux for some boards. also, if youre going athlon i have had no problem (since april/may) with my IWILL VIA/athlon based board. it has alot of bells and whistles.. cost me about 130 bux.

and ram is so cheap getting at least 256mb is a must.

etc

"I used it to replace a GeForce 2 MX which in turn replaced a Voodoo 5 5500"

Im considering getting a new video card .. But if i get a geforce 3 will i see ANY noticeable increase with it compared to a V5 (on an amd 1.2 w/320 mb)? Im sure i will but will it be worth the 300 dollars? this voodoo 5 is the longest i've ever kept a single video card...its been solid for over a year now, havent had any driver issues or game issues. damn, i was a 3dfx fanboy.

everybody at my old job says to give the V5 a rest and get a G3... but i like the compatibility of the voodoo....

etc

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Quote:

...theres a few sites that have feedback on pricewatch vendors... i forgot the website...

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Quote:

As for upgrades-- you can't beat a pre-built and tested Athlon CPU, heatsink/fan, motherboard, and memory combo. Just drop it into your existing case, plug in your drives, video card, etc, and you're good to go. Incredible price/performance.

---

That does sound like a hard drive failure.

Be careful building up the new Athlon system-- they are notoriously picky. I recommend installing the OS over from scratch. No need to format the drive (unless you want to), just rename the c:\windows and c:\program files folders, then install the OS. Don't let it install to the same windows folder!

Most importantly, be SURE to install the motherboard chipset drivers that came on the CD with the mobo. This is CRITICAL for athlon systems. You're not in intel-land any more..

I am doing a fresh install of Windows 98SE next week along with the installation of the other gear. I am starting from the ground up on the hard drive so all her software has a clean and fresh home. Also since the disk is probably bad, I have to do the entire format/partition thing anyway.

Built an Athlon Classic system last year using the Asus K7V mobo and didn't have any real problems with it. My main problem area was getting Windows 98SE to load without some odd error occurring during the install.

-DavidCPA

If you decide to upgrade your CPU keep in mind that Intel is going to cut its prices soon and AMD is expected to follow.
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-6792635.html?tag=mn_hd

Id hold off atleast a few more weeks on any upgrades if i were you.

I read about that decrease also. If only my wife's projects were scheduled around CPU price decreases. The CPU dropped about $30 right before I ordered it and with the prices fairly low anyway I am not going to sweat what will happen later this month.

Thanks for the heads up anyway.

-DavidCPA

Now only if the "gpu" prices dropped. Plunking 350 bux for a geforce 3 still isnt that cheap. I could buy 3 AMD Thunderbirds for that price!

etc

After a very long Friday night/Saturday morning install, my wife's new 1.4 ghz Athlon/Asus A7M266/512MB RAM system is alive..it's alive...wah-ha-ha!

Though most of you may be savy enough to know this, I will make one major note about the install. If you have a Gateway PC from the Performance series, be careful if you plan to upgrade the power supply. The stock power supply and mountings are not, I repeat NOT, ATX 2.01 or 2.03 compliant.

I am not lucky enough to have a demmel (ms) drill that allows you to easily cut metal, I was limited to the connect-the-dots method of metal cutting. For those unfamiliar with the method, you use various size drill bits to make enough holes to rip off the metal with pliers. The back of my case looks pretty rough, but the new power supply is installed quite nicely thank you.

In case you haven't guessed, the power supply ugrade took up most of the time needed to upgrade the system. On a side note, I did not encouter any chipset driver problems (AMD Northbride/Via Southbridge) as discussed above.

-DavidCPA

Congrats. I always find it especially satisfying to upgrade something like this, where you have to start cutting the case or doing some other thing not typically included in the instruction booklet. ;)

"On a side note, I did not encouter any chipset driver problems (AMD Northbride/Via Southbridge) as discussed above."

Yeah, for me these type problems were pretty hard to identify. For example, GPL would run fine hot lapping (which is what I do with it 90% of the time). But if I included a full field of AI cars and bumped up the resolution to 1024, I would get the occasional stutter. At first I wasn't sure if it was just how the game ran, or a problem specific to my machine. After a bunch of "what-FPS-are-you-getting" posts to the appropriate Usenet groups, I determined there was a problem on my machine and started all the swaping of PCI slots.

Not to say that you'll have the same issue, mind you. Hell, if it were a machine for my wife (who doesn't play games at all), I don't think I would have noticed. It's not like it was noticiable in Office, or just playing MP3s, etc.