Okay. Say you DO upgrade and suddenly there's a 1.4ghz gaming rig staring back at you from your desk.

What games out there are worth the upgrade? Giants? Sacrifice? Undying?

If you don't currently have a system that requires upgrading to play a game that you're dying to play, then do it a little at a time, until such a game does come about.

I'd say Sacrifice is probably worth the upgrade. And I don't know what you have now, but can you run any FPSs on it, cleanly? Some of them can be pretty demanding, and they're great for multiplayer gaming.

Maybe I'm not the best guy to ask, since the last game I upgraded for was Ultima: Ascension...

But think to the future. It will be probably four years before you'll have even one game that you can't run. (Well, maybe a new video card in a year or two, if you go with the GEForce 2, but that'd be it.) Wouldn't that feel good? Wouldn't you like knowing that you're prepared for whatever comes along?

First, I want to note that I'm not so dang practical about upgrading. I do it half as an overpriced hobby, just like some people work on a hot rod. When Bruce McClaren showed up with the first 1000HP Can-Am car, they asked if that was enough power for him. He responded, "Not until I can spin the wheels at the end of the straightaway." Same attitude goes for computers with me, except I also want more that one of them.

Anyway, I last upgraded over the second half of 2000 (and a bit into 2001), and first I installed several games that I saw stuttering in on the old machine - Q3, Soldier of Fortune, NOLF, X-Wing Alliance, EAW, GPL, HL/CS. I also switched from 800x600 to 1024x768, and still enjoyed smooth gaming goodness.

I then bought a few games just because I now could, and I thought they would look pretty - Sacrifice, MDK2, and Homeworld Cataclysm. All three are great looking and smooth on my GeForce2 Pro (and good games, too). Sacrifice and MDK2 are the most visually impressive. I also run the 3DMark 2001 demo when I want to make my friends stare slack-jawed at something. Even my wife was impressed with that thing.

Supertanker, I am with you. I am fairly impractical as well. :)

Along the lines of your resolution comments, I have noticed with the GeForce 3 I get free color depth, resolutions, and image quality settings in a lot of situations compared with my GF2 so I know what you mean there.

The bottom line for John is you should be happy with how your games run and look. If you aren't then an upgrade is in order. For some that is going from a V3 to a GeForce 2 MX or getting a new CPU and motherboard. Sometimes it means a list like Dave threw together in the other thread. You can be practical about it if you work at it. I have been before, you are going to have to trust me on that one. :)

-- Xaroc

If you blew the money for a 1.4 GHz system, let's hope you got a GF3 in there, and 256 MB of RAM or more (if you don't have the RAM, but it now...it's dirt cheap).

NOLF benefits greatly from lots of RAM, and is worth beefy computers. Giants will run nice with faster hardware, too. I guess what you should go pick up depends on what your old system was--what was unplayable on it? If your old thing was an 800 MHz machine with a GeForce2 GTS, there's really little out there where you "need" 1.4 GHz.

Stuff is coming soon, though. Aquanox runs HELLA faster on a GeForce3 (literally twice as fast, or more) and eats processor power, too. Crank up Independance War 2's graphics options and it wants a fairly beefy machine as well (sure is purty, though). I'm willing to bet Max Payne and Duke Forever will enjoy serious machines with their highest detail settings.

Let's not forget that Windows XP is quite a bit more resource intensive than 98/Me, particularly on RAM usage (you don't get something for nothing, after all).

The 3DMark 2001 is nice eye candy. If you have a GeForce3, you can run the game 4 scene "nature," which is WOW cool. Part of it runs during the demo part on all video cards, but it's quite choppy and slow by comparison.

Some preliminary info on Max Payne requirements can be found in a German MPZone Q&A (http://www.mpzone.de/english/?zone=remedyinterview.inc):

Q:What kind of a machine will you need to run MP nicely(around 30fps) with all the goodies?

A:The game scales pretty well, but it's best at home with a top-of-the-line machine. Here are the PRELIMINARY specs that should provide some outlines of what to expect:

Minimum (to play the game with minimum detail settings):
450 MHz Intel Pentium III Processor
96 MB RAM
16 MB Direct3D Compatible Graphics Card

Recommended (to play the game with medium detail settings):
733 MHz Intel Pentium III Processor
192 MB RAM
32 MB Direct3D Compatible Graphics Card

Optimal (to play the game with highest detail setting):
1000 MHz Intel Pentium III Processor
256 MB RAM
64 MB Direct3D Compatible Graphics Card

----------------
If these requirements are indicative of what next gen games will require, many of us will be needing an upgrade.

I'm running an 850 right now. I've thought about upgrading this box - simply so my other machine can inherit that processor because the P3 500 is just too slow for my patience when editing video.

However, since Nvidia announced their "all in a motherboard" integrated GF3 and uberzoomin bridge achitecture, I'm thinking about holding off until early next year and getting one of those. If they can pull this "single solution" thing off, it'll mean that PC's will finally have a "Holy Hardware Target" Batman... meaning that games will probably be optimized for it and compatibility woes potentially a thing of the past. IF they can pull it off with no major flaws.

Okay, I've started the process.

Very confused about video cards. So many models, so few coherent reviews. Don't want to spend more than, say, $150 for now. Does a GEforce2 make that much of a difference over my NVIDIA TNT card? (Yes, TNT period, no 2 or anything.) I like anandtech.com but they are reviewing a lot of high-end stuff. I'll be damned if I'll spend $380 on a GeForce3.

My system is going from a Pentium 2 350 to an Athlon 1.3GHz as far as core chip.

Also: is 32MB still okay, or should I just go to 64MB now, ahead of schedule?

Aszurom - the NVIDIA motherboard chipset does NOT have an integrated GF3. It's basically an integrated GF2 MX.

It's not going to provide the "ultimate hardware target" because by the time it's 6 months old, that built-in video will already be too slow (better than competing integrated video, but still too slow). Also, it's only for AMD systems right now, and Intel systems are 70% of the market. (actually slightly more, but AMD is shooting for 30% by year's end)

John T: A GeForce 2 will make a WORLD of difference over a TNT. GeForce2 class cards go like this, from slowest to fastest: GeForce2 MX 200, GeForce2 MX (phasing out in favor of 200/400), GeForce2 MX 400, GeForce2 (sometimes called GeForce2 GTS), GeForce2 Pro, GeForce2 Ultra.

For $150, look for a GeForce2 MX 400 or a GeForce2 GTS. The GTS will be a good step up from the MX400, and either one will be several times faster than your TNT.

No sense in getting 64 over 32 on a video card in your price range. By the time 64MB is meaningful to games, your $150 card won't cut it anyway. =) 64MB is only useful on higher-end cards where you start to eat up a lot of memory with anti-aliasing.

I wrote something a while ago that will demonstrate a similar upgrade:

TNT2 Ultra vs. GeForce 2

Obviously you are going to get a bigger speed increase going from a TNT to a GeForce 2 but this should give you an idea of the change.

BTW, Dave I know OGV is inactive but I had to pull this link out of the Google cache. Did gamestats go belly up?

-- Xaroc

Thanks Jason. Any specific brand/"click on this link to buy" recommendations? There seem to be a lot of cards from many manufacturers.

"It's not going to provide the "ultimate hardware target" because by the time it's 6 months old, that built-in video will already be too slow"

Ah... true dat. However, my point is that Nvidia drivers work on everything from from TNT2 up to GF3. That's ONE DRIVER regardless of the hardware involved. They can optimize their software for that driver from then on out.

Also, my understanding of the Nvidia motherboard was that there were going to be a couple of flavors... an MX version at lower cost, and then a GF3 version to follow.

My work (Intel) is giving the employees free machines right now for...erm I don't know why, for personal use. A nice P4 with 256megs (i'll bump that up) Matrox g450 16 megs (blahh- probably rip that out), Sb live, 19' monitor , 18 speed DVD along with a CD writer 32x(niiiice bonus) and a bunch of software and even a digital intel microscrope!

I'll probably make a few other adjustments and make this one my primo system for gaming and my other three will be back up and hooked up my Linksys hub. If I could figure out how to hook up my cable modem to the hub I"d be in heaven, but apparently I need to go back to IT remedial school, cause I CAN'T get the damn thing to WORK!!!! ARG! I swear by TNT btw....

Ask them why the PC Pro Cam USB doesn't have a win2k driver.

If you're a gamer theres no reason NOT to upgrade to a 1 gig setup now... the prices are so cheap im even considering building a p4 to go along with my amd! this is the best time to upgrade I've ever seen ... except vid card prices (expecially nvidia) are still the same.

Also, I dont see whats wrong with a Voodoo 5... its still a solid card to my eyes. plus ive seen it under a hundred (us dollars) at pricewatch. not bad imo. im waiting for the price drops on the geforce 3 to around 200 ... or i'm hoping the ATI truform thingy is the next best thing... i dont like nvidia having all the glory... it just dont feel right folks!

BTW, if you're on an @home setup a home network thru a proxy server with one pc, and having dual nic's seems to be the best setup i've seen. though some ppl die with the cable modem mini router hubs that provide its own DHCP... but anyway... it reminds me i still have dialup.

etc

David, to hook up multiple computers on your cable modem go grab an SMC Barricade router ($100 or so). You can look it up on pricewatch.com or ibuyer.net. I set mine up in about 10 minutes and it works great. Make sure to read the PDF file manual that comes with it. There are a couple of settings in there that you need to make for @home service (or maybe any cable service). Let me know if you want more info.

-- Xaroc

---

Quote:

My work (Intel) is giving the employees free machines right now for...erm I don't know why, for personal use. A nice P4 with 256megs (i'll bump that up) Matrox g450 16 megs (blahh- probably rip that out), Sb live, 19' monitor , 18 speed DVD along with a CD writer 32x(niiiice bonus) and a bunch of software and even a digital intel microscrope!

---

>If you're a gamer theres no reason NOT to upgrade to a 1 gig setup now...

The biggest reason (for me, at least) is that it's unnecessary. I have yet to find a game that noticeably taxes my 733; I'll probably upgrade to a GeForce3 soon, and I expect that to carry me over until next summer. Chances are, systems will be just as cheap then, if not more so.

=)

---

Quote:

BTW, Dave I know OGV is inactive but I had to pull this link out of the Google cache. Did gamestats go belly up?

---

"It's not going to provide the "ultimate hardware target" because by the time it's 6 months old, that built-in video will already be too slow"

I disagree. These boards are designed to compete against Intel for the low-end market, not for those who want the latest and greatest vid card (you can still turn off the on-board processor and use an AGP slot).

The greatest feature of these boards will be a standard video/audio/network config for those $900 Wal-Mart machines that probably generate 75% of the incompatibility issues post-release. Also, from what I have read, nVidia is adopting a "one-stop-shopping" approach to the drivers, meaning that a single driver will run all of the on-board components, making updating your drivers a breeze.

Also, think of the possibilities of having two video processors on your system. How many times have you fired up a game on "opening day," only to find out that it will not work until patched because of incompatibility issues with your hardware. With this type of system, you could turn off some of the fancier effects and still play the game until the patch came out.

"Also, it's only for AMD systems right now, and Intel systems are 70% of the market. (actually slightly more, but AMD is shooting for 30% by year's end)."

I believe that they are limited to AMD systems only because they don't have an Intel front bus license. I'm sure Intel is not too keen on partnering because this setup looks like it will blow their integrated video chipset out of the water. However, if they don't get friendly with nVidia soon, they may lose whatever share of the sub-$1000 market they have left.

P.S. I don't work for nVidia, I am just a total fanboi of the new chipset. A motherboard like this could finally give me the confidence to build my own system, instead of bitching about the sub-par components that you get from manufacturers.

There are some motherboards out there like this now, and I will definitely say that building a computer is about twenty times easier with such a motherboard. The problem with most of the ones out now is that the video adapter really, really sucks, and would never, EVER suit anyone on these boards for a minute.

Now, such a board by nVidia, with a good video card capabilities, and there might be something to sing about...

Dave Long:

I looked for that Creative Labs GeForce 2 card you mentioned. Nobody seems to carry it, and Creative's Web site makes no reference to it. I'm confused! Did they discontinue it already?

Dave: Never mind, I found it. I didn't realize the Annihilator cards were the right place to start looking.

I would be wary of current integrated setups for reasons Murph mentioned and from the feedback I get from people trying to get them to work. I have a friend right now that can't play Quake 3 due to lockups on an integrated board and we can't pin down why it is happening. With fewer slots you end up with much less flexibility. For $150 more you can have a real video card and sound card with the motherboard costs being roughly the same. It will be well worth your time to do it this way.

BTW, John, I might avoid Creative for a GeForce 2 solution because I have heard they are getting out of the video card business. Obviously you can just run reference drivers with it but it might be safer to stick with a company that is actually moving forward with other Nvidia products like Elsa, Hercules, Leadtek, or Visiontek. Just my 2 cents.

-- Xaroc

"BTW, John, I might avoid Creative for a GeForce 2 solution because I have heard they are getting out of the video card business ... "

Whoops. Ordered one already.

Creative is pretty good at supporting their products and the latest "official" NVIDIA drivers are WAY behind the "beta" releases. You're probably more than safe with the Annihilator 2.

--Dave

Re: Integrated boards

I would never, myself, put one of those things in my rig. I'm too "hands-on." I like to know exactly what's in there, and be able to customize and configure every little detail. I suspect a lot of you are like that, as well, even if you don't do all the work yourselves (which I recommend, unless you want to pay me to do it!).

However, for our customers, most of whom who could care less about gaming or having a state-of-the-art video card, they're great, because you're less likely to have compatibility problems with initial setup. They would just cause problems when you got into gaming. Sure, you can disable the on-board stuff, but then you've got to worry about conflicts, and you're not likely to have enough slots, etc., etc...

Bottom line: If I'm building a machine for someone who just wants a computer to have as a tool, I'm all for them. But you'd never find me with one in my set.

>I believe that they are limited to AMD systems only because they don't have an Intel front bus license. I'm sure Intel is not too keen on partnering because this setup looks like it will blow their integrated video chipset out of the water.

Actually, Intel is working with ATI on an integrated chipset solution, which is why Intel turned down Nvidia's request.

Stefan

"I believe that they are limited to AMD systems only because they don't have an Intel front bus license. I'm sure Intel is not too keen on partnering because this setup looks like it will blow their integrated video chipset out of the water."

"Actually, Intel is working with ATI on an integrated chipset solution, which is why Intel turned down Nvidia's request."


i don't believe this is the case at all- at least, w.r.t. PIII class cpu's: nvidia makes the chipset the xbox uses, and xbox uses PIII's, so it's apparent nvidia has *some* license to do intel bus stuff.

i do not doubt that intel would not immediately license the P4 bus currently (due to the work w/ ATI).

- mike - somewhere in east-central illinois -

A little info about nVidia and AMD

http://www6.tomshardware.com/mainboard/01q2/010604/nforce-03.html

>[me]Actually, Intel is working with ATI on an integrated chipset solution, which is why Intel turned down Nvidia's request."
>[Illinois Mike] i don't believe this is the case at all- at least, w.r.t. PIII class cpu's: nvidia makes the chipset the xbox uses

Intel already has integrated P3 solutions, using it's own (pretty outdated) videocards -- I was just referring to the p4. ATI has been pretty public about its agreement to partner with Intel to produce integrated p4 boards -- it's been practically the only good news that ATI has had over the past year.

Re Frank's link to Tomshardware.com:

This quote on the first page is pretty telling:

"when pressed further about supporting Intel chips [Nvidia] simply said, "We don't have a license to Intel's front side bus.""

They definitely wanted the licence, but couldn't come to terms.