heh--the requisite antithisis to the other thread. And no smarty pants suggestions about changing it to something like, Games that had the Biggest Imapct on the Industry, please. ;)

Actually what I'm after is really just the games that you remember most fondly. I was realizing that I don't remember the bad games that well. I suppose they're just forgettable, at least for tonight.

But I do remember playing Gunship 2000 on my 386 and wondering if other people really read the entire manual to discover how to operate all the systems. Of course, this was before I had discovered Usenet. I spent many a sleepless night working my way up to four star general. And I don't think I ever did get the CMOH. I can remember getting attached to my crew, and getting pissed at the AI when they killed one of my "better" guys. I gave each of those guys a carefully thought out name (well, ok, I thought about it for a minute, instead of just typing the first thing that comes to mind) and was careful to put the newbies with someone experienced, until they got they're feet wet. Intense!

The only thing that even comes close to that experience is my more recent infatuation with Grand Prix Legends. I really suck in most race car sims, but in this one I find myself holding my breath as I try to slip past the AI in a race. I can only win if I hobble the AI with a tweak. But even in practice when I'm trying to set a new personal best I catch myself leaning into the corners. ;)

For me it's probably X-COM. I loved that game, and a big part of my warm and fuzzy feelings have to do with how it came out of nowhere. In other words, I had no expectations for it.

EverQuest deserves a place too, although MMORPGs end up leaving a bitter taste as you get tired of them. Since you can't "win", there's no closure. You just keep playing and the game world never changes, and eventually that affects your enjoyment of the game.

My most fondly remembered game would have to be Ultima 6. It's the game that really got me into computer gaming, and showed me just how darn much fun it could be. All of the Ultimas since - including U9, since the only version I ever played was the fully patched version - deserve honorable mention, and UO will always have a place in my heart (cue sentimental music).

Quest for Glory 4 was pretty cool, and one of the ones I most enjoyed.

Civilization. Need I say more?

Those would have to top off my list. I haven't been gaming as long as most of you, so I missed out on games like X-COM, and basically anything that was pre-VGA I missed. (Ultima 1-5 did nothing for me, but only because I'd already played 6.) There was that game where you were the little guy going through a castle (I think it was called "Castle") and you had to get the sword, and the helmet, and so on. I played it in Elementary School. Anyone else remember that?

I do like X-COM. There are many greats, like the first Wing Commander, Jagged Alliance, Heroes of Might & Magic, Roadwar 2000, Aces of the Pacific, Ultima, Pool of Radiance, Star Command, Freddy Pharkas, blah blah blah. But X-COM seems to have it all: it crosses multiple genres nicely and has a bit of everything.

But the one that I think deserves the award is the Civilization series. If I could only have one computer game, this would be the one. It taught me to appreciate things I'd taken for granted, like refrigeration! It also spurred an increase in my interest in political and historical subjects.

I love X-COM too. Of course, I also loved the original Breach on my Amiga. From that era I'd have to mention Empire also. I played those two games to the exclusion of almost everything else.

More modern games: Civ 2, SMAC, Panzer General, Fallout, System Shock (1 & 2), TA

timelhajj said:

"But I do remember playing Gunship 2000 on my 386 and wondering if other people really read the entire manual to discover how to operate all the systems."

I did. I also played the game keyboard-only (I didn't get a real joystick for my PC until Wing Commander). Of course the flight physics in that game were a lot simpler than, say, the physics in Longbow 2.

I'm not sure that I could limit my "favorites" list to one game, though. If I absolutely had to, right now, I think I'd go with Thief: The Dark Project. I've played the game three times now, and I still get the urge to go back and install it again sometimes. I just loved the story, the style and atmosphere, the setting, the gameplay... Then again, I have lots of warm fuzzy feelings for Fallout, too.

Other things that would grace my favorites list include Myth, Myst (the two sound-alikes), Fantasy General, Civ, Ultima Underworld, Starflight, Wishbringer... god, I could go on for quite a while. =)

Wizardry, Wizards Crown, Ultima 7, and Betrayal at Krondor all rank way up there for me. Civ the first time starting at 9:00pm then glancing at the clock a bit later and noticing it was 6:30am. Doom and Doom 2. Wayne Gretzky Hockey. NHL 2001 (it is the first hockey game since Wayne Gretzky to keep me interested single player for an entire season). Deus Ex. System Shock 2 coop with my son. I know I will come up with more as I see other posts. It is impossible for me to choose just one.

Most of the Monkey Island games, along with pretty much every other LucasArts adventure game (Sam & Max, Full Throttle, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, etc... not The Dig - that just sucked). Most of EA's sports games are high on my list, as well.

More recently, Black & White has impressed me, if only because it's so innovative.

And then there are the fond memories of X-Wing, Tie Fighter, and every game in that series. X-Wing Alliance came out in the middle of LucasArts' "sucky period," but was a truly enjoyable game, and even rivalled the first two games in terms of enjoyability. heh

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And then there are the fond memories of X-Wing, Tie Fighter, and every game in that series. X-Wing Alliance came out in the middle of LucasArts' "sucky period," but was a truly enjoyable game, and even rivalled the first two games in terms of enjoyability.

---

X-Com and Civilization are responsible for more lost sleep than any other games in my collection. 'Nuff said.

- Alan

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X-Com and Civilization are responsible for more lost sleep than any other games in my collection.

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@?axM, Silent Service, Wasteland,
Strike
Fleet...

I will never forget the joy of Syndicate though. I
was working at a Babbages and a game with
a really cool box came in. No one had heard
of it, but as soon as we played it we were
hooked. I can still see the dance of the
civilans running around after hit by the flame
thrower. played that game several times
though...

Greg said: "Wasteland"

Yeah, I almost forgot about that one...the spiritual predecessor to Fallout.

URAQT!

Infinitely replayable games, I'd go with Master of Magic. Storyline oriented, Jagged Alliance 2. Must have more modern day pseudo-RPGs!

Greg mentioned Syndicate too. I had forgotten that one. I wrote a strategy article about Syndicate for the ancient GameBytes e-mag. That was a great game and looked amazing. You never would have known it only used 16 colors.

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Ya know, Tom, you may be the first person I've ever heard say good things about several of these games. It almost makes me want to look into them, being the Star Wars fan that I am...

---

I'll second the Master of Magic nod. I can remember many a sleepless night playing that one. There have been several similar games over the years (Age of Wonders being one), but I never found one with the same feel to it.

I can't believe that no one has mentioned M.U.L.E.

I'll third M.O.M. You know it's good when your wife, who only plays adventure games, puts more time into a title than you do.

So, by that criteria, I should add Warcraft 2 (the original Warcraft made me appreciate what all the hype over Dune was about).

The first Panzer General. Man, that was a good time.

X-Com is still worth playing if you can find a way to slow down that damn Geoscape.

The original Civilization caused me to fail college Physics. Twice.

The only other titles I can recall having a passion for was SWOTL, the original Red Baron, and the first MechWarrior (playing these titles on my friend's PC were why I got one of my own). And the only thing to come along recently that got me excited has been Jagged Alliance 2, the original Baldur's Gate, and Counter-Strike. (I never finished System Shock 2 or Thief, and haven't even started BG2 yet)

Man, this is hard. I like so many games for so many different reasons.

Limiting it to JUST computer games, mind you:

Wasteland - I played through it twice. I was just in awe of how great an RPG it was and how "cool" it was, compared to the typical fantasy stuff out there.

Doom - my memories of playing through Doom have as much to do with it being the first night I actually got drunk (rather than just a touch buzzed) as anything else. Still, the add-on levels and stuff made it sit on my hard drive for like three years.

Civ. - who doesn't have stories about the mysterious bending of the fourth dimension known as Civ Time? I went to more 8am classes in my freshman year of college - late - after finishing "just one more turn" of Civ having played all night. This is why I know nothing about midieval european history.

Ultima 4 - so damn engaging! Took me like three months of after-school but before soccar practice playing to finish. And that's what I did, every single damn day. Mom yelled at me to go outside on the weekends.

Pool of Radiance - it was D&D...BUT ON YOUR COMPUTER! Amazing!

Star Control II - let's see...good action, great free open universe, fantastic dialogue and personalitites... what's not to love?

There are so many other fantastic games, but those probably top the list. Ultima Online - I played late at night every night with my buddy Dan, while chatting on the other phone line. But it's not quite "up there."

You wanna include consoles, you get Phantasy Star, Super Mario World (Mario 4), Revenge of Shinobi, Final Fantasy 6 (3 here in the states), etc...

>including U9, since the only version I ever played was the fully patched version

ah, if ONLY that had been what was released! Then all it would have is a bad performance problem, which is kinda tolerable given the style of game (and the beauty of it at the time). That game was ahead of its time in many ways... well worth revisiting now if you've got a modern zippy machine and can find the patches.

For me, if I had to pick one game only, it would be the original Tie Fighter for DOS, plus the two expansion packs (if i can be permitted that leeway). I think you could only get the second expansion by buying the gold edition cdrom, but i loved the game so much it was worth it. That was a really awesome game. They did such a good job of making flying for the Empire not sound like an evil thing to be doing.

If you added up the time i've spent playing the Star Wars space combat sims, Tie Fighter, XvT, XvT: BOP, and X-Wing Alliance, I'm sure it would totally eclipse everything else.

Prbably Sid's Pirates! is on top of my list for fondly remembering...the game was a mix of strategy, action, rpg and that was before those genre's were set in stone. I remember having a super pirate with gargantuan Galleons to dispose of and having like over a 1000 men...to bad i couldn't brag to anyone about it! I played this game more than Sids other games live Civ and Railroad Tycoon.

Recently though SS2 has been my favorite for the fact of atmosphere alone... Shodan is my favorite character in all pc gaming.

etc

Syndicate was fun, except that YOU COULDN'T SEE INSIDE OF BUILDINGS!!!!!!! Drove me crazy. That and the friggin' oil rig mission where the guards are all packing gauss guns. ;)

Seeing as MoM was so well received by the people around here, who was it that didn't like Age of Wonders? The only thing MoM was missing was multiplayer.

Speaking of MoM era games, I can't figure out how MoO2 slipped my mind. That game definitely gets the award for "longest time on my hard drive" (partly due to that long period without any good 4x games).

- Alan

I'm the guy that didn't like Age of Wonders. Maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance. I didn't really like...well, I didn't find anything about it that I particularly did like. I never played MoM, and maybe if I had I would have appreciated AoW more. Maybe I have just lost some of my affection for turn-based, non-Civ games. I dunno. Maybe I should re-install it and give it more of a fair chance.

D'oh, I forgot about Star Control II. Melee tournaments during college was the shiznit! The storyline of II and most of StarCon III was great stuff.

Crusader: No Remorse might be my favorite single player game of all time when I think about it. (I loved X-COM but simply couldn't devote the amount of time necessary to get through it all).

I've still not found another game where it was so much fun to simply destroy the environment. I always worried senators and congressmen would get hold of it and see people running around on fire screaming or blowing up. :)

Civilization 2. Only because I still play around 5 full games of it a year, and it's a 1995(?) release. That's replayability. It still barely feels outdated.

-Andrew

Civ 2 is pretty phenomenal. My best friend and I keep trying to find the time to play a multiplayer game, but that's not easy to do...

THANK YOU ALL!

After thinking about these games, I wandered over to the underdogs and downloaded Syndicate. After some fiddling, it will still run on my Windows 98 machine!

Ahh, a whole weekend of flaming poor civilians...

The memories...

"Syndicate"

Lets see games i remember fondly
Lords of the Realm 2: a solid blend of Turn-based empire managment and real time tactical combat that i dearly miss

WarCraft 2: My first RTS hours and hours spent here

Tetris: The orignal still has the Russian in it. I have acute dislexia and tetris really helped me with it i think. Now if i could only spell.

Gizmo's and Gadgets: My favoite game from The Learning Company i remember when i couldn't but that game down. Well if that mad scintist secret plan was to steal my childhood then, when all was told, i was unable to beat him :( Give me a break i was like 6!

ShiningOne

Heh. I forgot about Lords of the Realm 2. I picked that one up on the ten dollar rack, and it's really pretty cool, but tough. Thanks for reminding me about it, though. I may have to go re-install that one.

If you like it then you must the expansion pack or Siege pack. Has alot of cool stuff and if you can find it it will be dirt cheap.

*No one* mentioned Planescape:Torment? I'm still as happy about playing that now, a year later, as I was directly after finishing it.

Oh yes, and Panzer General. I finally figured out that it's more of a puzzle game than a war game on my last trip through.

Planescape: Torment is one of those on my list to pick up soon. I've gotta get through Baldur's Gate before I can get any more games like that! I just don't have time to devote to two of them.

I have fond memories of wasting way too much time playing -- among many other games -- the old Eamon text RPGs on my friend's Apple II+ circa 1982.

I fell out of gaming for years, but was led back in, oddly, by console games. What sealed it for me was the initial release of the Playstation. A friend and I would rent the machine and a few games on the weekends, and one time on a whim we rented an innocuous little game called X-Com, which we knew nothing at all about. That weekend was completely shot for both of us. The first X-Com easily wins my personal "Best Game Ever" award.

I bought a Playstation the next day, and then had to drive a town over to find a copy of the Playstation version of X-Com. That was it for me; I was on the short road to my own PC, and innumerable nights lost to the likes of Master of Orion II, Civilization II, and Daggerfall.

One of the funnest parts of getting back into gaming "late" has been building my collection, hunting down all of the "classics" that people talk about. Among many great bargain finds, I was finally able to lay my hands on complete copies of Darklands and Master of Magic, which were great fun to play after hearing so much about.

Still have my eyes open for a copy of Spellcross...

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Quote:

*No one* mentioned Planescape:Torment

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If you like story-driven RPGS, it's hard to beat Planescape. It has probably the best story of any CRPG to date. And, although there's plenty of fighting, it's far less hack-and-slash than the other Black Isle games. OTOH, if you don't like reading a lot of text in a game, stay away from Planescape. It has screen after screen of text. Well-written text as games go, but definitely not an action RPG.

Actually, Planescape: Torment is the ultra-rare game where load times actually bothered me so much that I stopped playing it half-way through. Maybe it's just that so many of the quests involved going back and forth between zones...

- Alan

Worse than Diablo? Scary!

Summary:

If you haven't played this, why on earth do you like RPGs?

The game is: Baldur's Gate engine, with less combat, insanely better graphics (some of the spell animations are Final Fantasy quality, or close at least), the best quality of writing to ever grace an RPG, and.....character development.

Yes, that's right. You actually end up *giving a shit* about your companions, and not in a Final Fantasy-cutesy-the main character wants to have sex with them after three minutes of chatting type of way. The things you find about Ignus, Vhailor, and Morte are, um, interesting. The game is stuffed with detail, too; everything has an interesting description for everything, an included highly-descriptive bestiary, and you can spend 15 minutes tromping around a gorgeously subtle little art museum in the game.

The music is far, far above average, also. The Deva's theme, especially. The art is a good step above Baldur's Gate II.

Man, I need to install and play through it again. Only a few hours until I get off work.....

I was talking about Planescape: Torment. Oops.

"Actually, Planescape: Torment is the ultra-rare game where load times actually bothered me so much that I stopped playing it half-way through."

Alan,

You can do a full install, no-CD crack type thing to cut load times to minimal.

I got a long way into Torment and one of these days I'll get back to it. It really is exquisitely written, which is rare -- if not non-existent -- in computer/video gaming.

Right now, however, I'm thinking of sitting down to finish Zelda for the N64. Any of you RPGers have a recommendation one way or the other?

-Tom

Yeah, that would go a long way towards improving my P:T experience. Of the part I played, I had a great time. It's the time I spent waiting for the damn CD that was driving me nuts.

The Fed-Ex quests are a different matter entirely, but I guess cRPGs have been doing that for ages. Speaking of cRPGs, did anyone actually ever finish the OverWorld RPG embedded in the System Shock 2 Gamepig?

- Alan

"The Fed-Ex quests are a different matter entirely, but I guess cRPGs have been doing that for ages."

If you try to become a magic-user in P:T, there's a great set of FedEx quests that toys with your expectations and finally has a great payoff. Anyone remember running errands for Mebbeth?

"Speaking of cRPGs, did anyone actually ever finish the OverWorld RPG embedded in the System Shock 2 Gamepig?"

Wow, I'd forgotten about that. Did anyone actually play it? How far did it actually go?

-Tom

For me the closest thing to a religious experience gaming-wise would have to be either Origin's Ultima IV and Microprose's Red Storm Rising on the Commodore 64.

I spent literally months playing both these titles - so much so that I wore out my floppy disks playing them. (I of course was using backups).

Sean-those were both great games. I'd have to add Civilization, and Maybe Master Of Magic or X-COM to the list. I still hear that creepy 50's alien horror music in my head sometimes...

From someone who's been computer gaming since 1979:

The original Wizardy. I remember looking at the manual, which was complete and witty (rare in those days) and then becoming completely immersed in a world that felt as real to me as anything ever has on a computer.

X-Com. Someone needs to figure out what made that game so special - it's far more than the sum of its ingredients.

Red Baron II 3D. The essence of aerial combat in a campaign that captures the role playing aspects in a manner unsurpassed to this day in a flight sim. The only reason I keep a 3Dfx card in my machine.

Nethack. I'm a wimp; I play with tiles. The most deceptive RPG ever released - it looks like a trivial little game, yet after playing it for over 5 years I still discover new tricks and surprises. It's actually far more sophisticated in what you can do than any modern RPG.

- Jeff

Anybody remember Rainbird's "Starglider"?

Man, that game owned me for months. It was rather reminiscent of the deathstar surface flight, pre-trench, in the starwars arcade game married to battlezone.

>From someone who's been computer gaming since 1979:

Well, I joined the ranks in 1982 (before that I was an arcade game junkie) -- here's a list of 5 of my favourites:

1. Ultima IV -- it's been mentioned previously here, and deservedly. All of the Ultimas up to and including IV were revolutionary at their time of release -- while other classic RPG series, including Wizardry/Phantasie/Bard's Tale were content to release sequels that were incremental improvements over their predecessor(s), Garriott started from scratch every time and was way ahead of the competition as a result. My list of top games could be dominated by Ultima games, since I loved them all when released, especially (in addition to 4) 2, 5, 6 and 7.

2. Star Control 2 - an amazing hybrid game - RPG/Adventure/Action, completely non-linear, great combat and an interesting storyline. Hilarious dialogue.

3/4. Wing Commander 3/FreeSpace 2 - I think there's been a ton of great space sims, including all of the Xwing games (other than XvT, and that game's expansion pack was excellent), Independence War and the first couple of Wing Commanders, but these two games are the best of the genre, at least judged by when they were released. A lot of people malign WC3 because of the FMV (which actually was amazing) and fail to remember that it actually had an incredible new gameplay engine as well -- 1st SVGA space sim, with great textures, ships big enough to fly through and an epic plot. I think FreeSpace 2 is simply the best game of its type, ever. A masterpiece of design, with one of the best, most "adult" plots in a space sim, along with incredible gameplay, an unsurpassed interface and beautiful graphics. The only sim (flight or space) to really make you feel like you were a gnat caught up in huge battles.

5. Half Life - for a game that was over a year overdue, and was built on an outdated engine, Half-life was way ahead of its time. Simply destroyed the FPS genre. We're finally seeing competitive games (NOLF, for one), over two years later.

Black Isle has also produced a lot of amazing RPGs over the past few years: the Fallout games, BG2, Planescape Torment -- and the original Wasteland back in the late 80s. All of those games are near misses on this list.

Stefan

I was always a big fan of ultima IV even over ultima 7. Ultima 6 is my second favorite then ultima 3 and then ultima 7 (i disliked u7 at first because of the aging pc i had at the time 286 w/ mathcopressor beefed up to 386 speed...i could barely play it really til 1996...)

Desslock have you heard of any developers making ANY rpg with a style like the middle ultimas (besides Avernum)...

etc

I came in late on the Ultimas...The first one I played (that was truly Ultima, so not couting that Savage Empire game, which was cool in its own right) was U6, and that was phenomenal. Since it was already in the age of SVGA graphics, it was just too painful for me to go back to early Ultimas, though I've heard many good things. U6 will always be special to me.

My top five, in no particular order:

• Star Control II
• Master of Orion
• System Shock
• Half-Life
• SMAC

• Wasteland
• Age of Empires II
• Total Annihilation
• Civilization II
• Jane's F/A-18

>Desslock have you heard of any developers making ANY rpg with a style like the middle ultimas (besides Avernum)...

Yeah, all the Spiderweb games are designed in that style. Also games like Faery Tale Adventure 2, which is an ok Ultima 7 style clone. Obviously some of the isometric perspective games to be released in recent years are at least superficially similar, like the Fallout games (but not the Infinity engine games, which have a completely different feel, in my opinion.

>Since it was already in the age of SVGA graphics, it was just too painful for me to go back to early Ultimas, though I've heard many good things. U6 will always be special to me.

U6 just had VGA graphics -- as did U7 and U8, for that matter. Ultima IX: Ascension is the only Ultima game to feature SVGA graphics. That said, the graphics in -all- of the Ultima games were great when judged by the time they were released.

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Quote:

That said, the graphics in -all- of the Ultima games were great when judged by the time they were released.

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Hmmm, mt Tops List would look like this:
In chronological order.

1-Wizardry
2-Ultima IV
3-Curse of the Azure Bonds
4-Ancient Art of War
5-Civilization 2
6-Jedi Knight
7-TIE Fighter
8-Half-Life
9-Baldur's Gate II
10-High Heat Baseball 2002 (if patched)

Here's mine as of today:

TOP TEN PC GAMES

1. X-Com: UFO Enemy Unknown (still the high water mark)
2. Master of Orion II (most sleepless nights)
3. Civilization II (second most sleepless nights)
4. Railroad Tycoon II (most educational)
5. Master of Magic (most ambitious)
6. Rollercoaster Tycoon (funnest sim)
7. No One Lives Forever (best fps)
8. Shadow Watch (best gameplay)
9. Thief (most creative and atmospheric fps)
10. Heroes of Might and Magic II (most charming)

I'd say my "best ever" goes something like this:

- Half-Life
- Total Annihilation
- Doom
- Counter-Strike
- Freespace 2
- Warcraft 2
- Duke Nukem 3D

In retrospect, I find that my perception of greatness is _heavily_ influenced by how many hours I spent playing the game against other live opponents, whether on a LAN/internet or whatever. Finishing a single player game, however great it may have been, in a mere 40 or 50 hours just pales in comparison to the hundred or more I spent playing against those crazy, nutty, real live human opponents in other games.

I guess that says volumes about where we need to go with new games-- better AI, first and foremost. I think AI is a big part of the (well-deserved, IMO) popularity of NOLF and Thief.

The really odd thing is that I don't consider myself a multiplayer-only kind of guy. I love single player games. But when it comes time to draw up lists like this.. I find myself reminiscing most about the multiplayer greats.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

My "best ever" list:

Ultima 6
Baldur's Gate (haven't played the sequel yet, simply 'cause I haven't finished the first)
Warcraft 2
Quest for Glory 1&5

I think those are the only real "life-changing" games I've played.

"In retrospect, I find that my perception of greatness is _heavily_ influenced by how many hours I spent playing the game against other live opponents."

For me, it's just how many hours I spent playing the game, period. Which skews this list towards some 15-20-year-old games.

1. M.U.L.E.
2. Seven Cities of Gold
3. Civilization
4. X-COM: UFO Defense
5. Eastern Front, 1941
6. Master of Orion (the original - I didn't like the sequel)
7. Heroes of Might & Magic II
8. Master of Magic
9. Combat Mission
10. Lode Runner

I'd love to be able to fit Pirates!, Railroad Tycoon, and 1830 in here, but that's more than ten.

"For me, it's just how many hours I spent playing the game, period. Which skews this list towards some 15-20-year-old games."

Yeah, I can see that-- I just find playing against AI much less rewarding after I complete the game. I'm not big on replaying games I've already 'won' in single player, _unless_ there's a person on the other end. People are funny as hell, unpredictable, and frequently annoying.. which makes the game worthwhile through subsequent passes.

And after finishing Kohan on "medium" (most recent example) and jumping into multiplayer, I find that people are one hell of a lot tougher to beat than the computer AI is, all things being equal*. The difference is dramatic.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

* On "hard" difficulty in SP or skirmish Kohan, the computer basically cheats; it starts out with a larger city and some pre-existing troops. Pretty lame..

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On "hard" difficulty in SP or skirmish Kohan, the computer basically cheats; it starts out with a larger city and some pre-existing troops.

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I'd like to have a copy of Ultima IV. I played it when it first came out (on my Atari 800XL!), but an error on the floppy disk stopped me from finishing. I think I was pretty far along, too. It was a real bummer.

Does Civ cheat Bruce?
I've heard of this but never investigated it. I always though it just got huge bonuses at the onset.

I used to belong to a Civ2 Deity Club. We'd make "impossible" scenarios and see who could win by the earliest date. Well, two of us would win by the medieval era... the rest of us would nod at them, smile, and just enjoy the challenge of a tough situation.

If it did "cheat" beyond the bonuses, I'm proud I could always beat it.
-Andrew

"Does Civ cheat Bruce?"

The skill levels in the original Civilization correspond to different build/research costs for the computer players. I believe that below "King," it's the human with the advantage (identical units costs less for the player to construct that the computer, identical techs require fewer research points, etc.). On "King," the player and AI are on equal footing. On Emperor, the computer has the advantage. That's what I recall, anyway.

Ok, that's true of Civ2 I believe.
Also, they get a couple extra cities and techs to start as I recall.

By "cheats" I thought you meant the computer could "insta-build" or do things not allowed in the game like catch-up or movement cheating.

"By "cheats" I thought you meant the computer could "insta-build" or do things not allowed in the game like catch-up or movement cheating."

But starting with more stuff than the other guy _is_ cheating. That's not artificial INTELLIGENCE, it's artificial DIFFICULTY. Lame, and one of my primary objections to this sort of gameplay. Even if you do win, wouldn't it feel cheap since the contest was never really on equal terms?

Then, of course, there's the opposite problem-- the computer does play by the same rules, but does things so quickly and efficiently that it brainlessly, mechanically overwhelms you. The old Warcraft II AI issue.

These are my two big objections to playing AIs. I want to play my peers-- people who can clobber me by playing the same way I do, using the same rules. Not by starting with more "stuff", and not by working with inhuman aimbot precision/efficiency. That's "not fun".

Since it was just posted, take Brad's recent column on Total Annihilation. It was absolutely fascinating to watch multiplayer strategies evolve over months on different maps. In particular, the relatively small "shore to shore" map he refers to went through about 6 iterations of popular strategies.. all stuff I never would have even DREAMED of trying-- but human players are wily and tricky like that.

I don't mind playing the AI the first time through while I learn the game, but after that I want real opponents.. or else I just pop the game on the shelf. I'm not against getting 40 hours of gameplay out of a game for my $40-$50. Anything beyond that is gravy. Heck, less than $2 an hour for that kind of fun is a steal.

But until they game designers up with really good AIs-- the grunts in 1998's Half-Life were a DAMN good start in the FPS genre, for example-- then they really should design for multiplayer too.

wumpus http://www.gamebasement.com

"For me, it's just how many hours I spent playing the game, period. Which skews this list towards some 15-20-year-old games."

Ah, how could I have forgotten Seven Cities of Gold? That is definitely in my top 5.

And Combat Mission has to be in there also - it doesn't have the aura that comes with an older classic, but it's a classic nonetheless. One of the most impressive designs I've ever seen in any genre.

Jeff

kazz wrote:

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I'd like to have a copy of Ultima IV. I played it when it first came out (on my Atari 800XL!), but an error on the floppy disk stopped me from finishing. I think I was pretty far along, too. It was a real bummer.

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Actually, you don't even need an emulator for Ultima IV. It was released for free on PC Games magazine awhile back (IBM PC version) and is public domain now.

--Dave

Dave, that is true there are ways you can get and play a lot of games other than using an emulator. My belief is for older games, like U4, an emulator might be an easier way to go. It is also likey the only way to go if you run Windows 2000 or NT.

-- Xaroc

I downloaded U4 yesterday, and it came with Mo'Slo. It ran pretty well, too.

It may be time to finally play that game.

Speaking of Mo-Slo, why can't the developers just put in a proper system timer? I want my replay value! Bastards. ;)

- Alan

Heh - that's be nice, wouldn't it!?! Even at 1%, Ultima 4 is still too bloody fast!

Murph wrote:

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Heh - that's be nice, wouldn't it!?! Even at 1%, Ultima 4 is still too bloody fast!

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I'll look into that! Thanks.