Got an unexpected windfall after doing the taxes this year. Woo!
Anyhow--it's enough that I can finally build a new box *exclusively* for gaming. I've only been halfway following the latest hardware news so I'm looking to do some research. Can someone share some links besides Tom's Hardware.
Also, if you've got suggestions, I'd like to hear them. I'm leaning toward an Intel [email protected] and the part I'm having the most trouble with is trying to sort which chipset/motherboard to go with. I hate paying for all the extra integrated shit on the 815, but it looks like the most solid chipset. Maybe I should just stick with a BX chipset...
I really want to move fast here, so that my upgrade doe ray me does not get retasked (those of us who were ever married *know* what I'm talkin about). Any help appreciated.
By Supertanker on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 01:59 am:
Tom's is OK, but he bugs me. Instead, go to www.hardocp.com, or www.anandtech.com if you must. Read through the forums at hardocp as well.
If it were me, I'd be leaning toward a 1.0 to 1.2Ghz Thunderbird. Abit KT7A-RAID motherboard; nVidia GeForce2 GTS Pro (better bang for the buck than the Ultras - I've got one and it is fast!) or a 64MB ATI Radeon; 256MB of 2-2-2 SDRAM (or 128 to save some money) from Mushkin or someone similar; IBM or Western Digital ATA/100 drive (30GB, minimum - my 20.5 is about full); Pioneer 16x DVD; Plextor or TDK 16x10x32 burner (or whatever is their fastest now); and finally a SoundBlaster Live! 5.1. If you want a new case, Addtronics: There is No Substitute. I have a 6896A, and it is the best case I've ever owned, by a huge margin.
By XtienMurawski on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 04:39 am:
Nice to see someone else is up...
Very interesting Super. I've been thinking about building my own system for awhile, but it's so intimidating. Given the specs you just listed above, how much would you estimate the system would cost to put together?
By Supertanker on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 10:25 pm:
Building a machine isn't that hard, it is sort of like assembling a big puzzle. As long as you don't force anything or cut them to fit, there shouldn't be a problem.
Prices, let's see. I pulled a few buy.com prices (not that I'm endorsing them, it was just easy). You can probably do a little better than this shopping around & if you don't mind OEM parts. Be sure to check online stores on www.resellerratings.com before buying:
Case (inc. 300w power supply & fans) - $200
CPU - $264.95 for 1.1 Ghz T-bird
Motherboard - $180 ($160 for the non-RAID version)
Videocard - $300 (Pros list for $349, but can be had for about $300, sometimes a little less)
Memory - 256MB Mushkin High Performance REV2 PC133 2-2-2 $188 direct from Mushkin
Drive - IBM 45GB Deskstar 75GXP $160.95 (buy two and stripe them in RAID0 configuration)
DVD - <$100
Burner - $250 (buy.com has the Plextor 16x10x40 for $253.95 right now)
SoundBlaster Live 5.1 - $100
A couple other things I forgot:
NIC or modem - $50
HSF - $25
Floppy drive - $25
Decent keyboard & mouse - $100
So, about $1950, plus shipping. I'm also assuming you already own a copy of Windows, and don't want a new monitor. It would be a thunderous beast of a machine, though.
You could also look into an Alienware or a Falcon machine, if you want something similar that is preassembled and carries a system warranty. I suspect it would be about another $500 to go that route.
By XtienMurawski on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 11:30 pm:
Thanks man. I didn't mean for you to do all that running about advancing behavior and research for me. Sorry about that. I thought you might just know off the top of your head. I feel like a goofball now.
The reason I say it seems intimidating is that I'm always reading on the DailyRadar PC Q&A the question of some guy who put everything together and nothing happens because of some little thing he overlooked. Like his BIOS won't synch with his Sphincter Card or something.
Thanks for the info, again.
By Supertanker on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 11:37 pm:
No problem, I'm in the middle of specing a new box for my wife (insert plastic surgery pun here - insert pun not intended), so I had bookmarks to a lot of stuff. The rest was off the top of my head, so it is worth what you paid for it.
I've had tremendous difficulty with sphincter cards myself, but it usually had something to do with AOL's browser being shoved up it repeatedly.
By TimElhajj on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 02:37 am:
Supertanker: Thanks for the links and tips! I agree with you completely about Tom. I have his site's name commited to memory now, so I always end up there out of ignorance.
Right after I posted last night, I realized I hadn't even given an AMD box a thought. I've never owned an AMD before, but they sure have been generating a lot of talk this past year, so maybe it's time to take a look. Can't beat the price, either.
As for your other specs, I'm curious about the RAM. I went to the Mushkin site and looked around. Why would I want the more expensive 222 pc 133 RAM, not the bargin 133? Is it better for overclocking? I would have guessed the multipliers would be so high on a 1g machine that you wouldn't be able to squeeze much more out. But maybe I'm missing somethign... why do you buy such expensive RAM?
Call me crazy but I'm going to get a Voodoo5 for the FSAA and my old Glide sims. The plan is to migrate it over to my current p3550 when the new Nvidia part comes out. With V5 going for $125 on pricewatch and my closet full of old Glide games, I can't resist.
I like the look of the Addtronics case. My current InWin is okay, but since I have to get another I wanted to try something different. Is the 300w addtronics really worth the ~150 or so they're asking for it?
Also, thanks for the tips on purchasing online. Didn't know about Also, thanks for the tips on purchasing online. Didn't know about resellerratings.com. A lot of times I just buy from local vendors but I'm going to have to go online for the V5 and case. Maybe I'll just look for a decent deal on the rest of the gear, too.
Heh-- No way am I spending as much as you've speced out above. ;) Wife would shoot me. I'll probably get buy without the RAID config and just go with a spare 40g 7200 matrox I have in my current rig, plus save the expensive video card for later this year. I just have to decide if I really need the 222 RAM or not. I know a place I can get a used switch box, so I get to keep using my monitor.
Curious. Have you ever built a rig without a CD ROM in it? If I have one in my current box and they're both going to be in my office, I wonder how much of a hassle it would be to just map a drive to the machine with the CD rom. Has anyone tried this, is it a total pain in the ass?
By TimElhajj on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 02:44 am:
Amanpour: I just started building my own machines recently. To date, I have about four under my belt. Let me tell you that I have never gotten the last part it, plugged it in and had the damn thing start up. It's always something. Buy your parts and jump right in--you'll have a blast!
By TomChick on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 02:57 am:
"I have never gotten the last part it, plugged it in and had the damn thing start up. It's always something."
Isn't that the truth! I'm at the point now where I don't panic when this happens, but I used to be convinced that I was cursed so that every bad CPU, motherboard, and RAM chip would find its way to me.
My M.O. now is to plug one thing in at a time and make sure it works before going on to the next step. It's slower and more painstaking, but it makes it easier to isolate those inevitable cock-ups that go with building your own rig.
By Supertanker on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 03:49 am:
Tom (the Hardware Tom, not the Q23 Tom) strikes me as Wile E. Coyote, going around proclaiming himself to be a Super-genius. On to the questions.
The lower latency RAM is faster. Not by much, maybe 5-10% depending on the application, but if you want every bit of speed, or planning to OC, then I think it is worth it. Also, that $188 is for 256MB, you could get 128 for under $100. Last summer, I paid $175 for 128MB of Infineon-chipped SDRAM from Mushkin!
InWin are good cases, too. I like my Addtronics because it has an air filter, lots of mounts for extra fans, it is roomy, and you can open up the sides with a couple of thumbscrews. I feel like now my case cooperates with me, instead of me hoping and praying I can get the damned thing open. My wife's current machine is a Compaq, and it is the polar opposite - totally cramped & impossible to open.
You can save a little money by going with a Duron instead of a T-bird. However, 750MHz T-birds are famous for a good OC (assuming proper cooling), and they aren't much more than the Durons. Lots of sites sell bundles (motherboard, CPU, HSF, memory), like Azzo.com. They are showing one combo right now that is a 700 T-Bird pretested to 950, KT7A, 128MB CAS2, and a FOP38 HSF for $385. One warning about their combo, though, those FOP38 fans are LOUD. The fan is something like 7000 RPM, so you know when they are working! Cools the bejeezus out of the chip, though.
I once had a system without a CD-ROM in it, but it was my old 386SX-16. :) I think you need to buy a good CD (they are quieter, and handle vibration much better), but even then they are only $50 or so now. I'll never give up my Toshiba 32x. You could save on the burner, too. 8x4x32 burners are around $100 now. You could get a decent one and only put that in the system, skipping the DVD.
I echo the comments about making the thing run the first time. The only time I had it run off the bat is my current box, and I about fell out of my chair when it posted immediately.
Also, if you have a PIII/550e, it is crying out for an overclock! The 550e is the same core & multiplier as the 733eb. The only difference is the bus speed. 5.5x100=550, but 5.5x133=733. That is my current chip, and I bought everything else rated for a 133MHz bus to make the OC easy. It posted at 736MHz, and has been there ever since.
I waited on the videocard, too. Mine was my Christmas present, and most everything else was a birthday present back in July. I tried to buy a V5, but I posted that whole story in another thread and won't bore everyone with it again.
By wumpus on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 09:32 am:
Hmm. New system-- well, how much do you have to spend?
If I was building a new system, here's what I would pick.
- AMD @ 1ghz or more
(note, use High-quality aftermarket heatsink/fan as AMD chips get VERY hot)
- Asus or Abit socket A motherboard
- 256mb high-quality PC133 222 memory
Note that you can get all three of these items together and pre-tested at this site (scroll down to AMD Thunderbird combos)...
.. which is kinda nice.
That's the core system, beyond that things get optional depending on your budget. But here are my best price/performance picks:
- IBM Deskstar 7200rpm 75GXP hdd (15mb, 30mb, 45mb, or 60mb)
- Plextor IDE CD-R
- GeForce 2 Pro 64mb
Also it's definitely a good idea to wait on video cards right now. New cards right around the corner (eg, next 6 months.) If you can get a cheap V5, or Radeon DDR, that'd do fine..
By wumpus on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 09:40 am:
Crap, forgot to post my case recommendation.
*DEFINITELY* the Antec 1030b. I've been searching for the perfect PC case for the last 5 years, and this is without a doubt one of my top 3.
My server resides in this case and I really like it. I'd never recommend anything I wouldn't gladly buy (or already own) myself anyway.
I doubt you want to drop $300 on the ultra-cool aluminum cases, which are about the only thing better out there.
By Michael Murphy (Murph) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 11:09 am:
Keep an eye on pricewatch.com -- they have some great prices on motherboard/CPU/fan combos. We just built some computers with some parts we got from pricewatch, and haven't heard of any problems yet. Seems to be reliable. Definitely some good prices.
And, yes, everytime you build a set, something is going to go wrong. I've been doing it for a few years now, and still have problems. Oh, well. Tom's idea (that would be Tom Chick) of starting it up with a piece at time running is a good one. Pretty time consuming up front, but with all the troubleshooting that you have to do if you plug it in and nothing happens, it saves time in the long run.
We usually use the cheap-o cases, too, and have never had any trouble. I'd love it if someone would educate me as to why they will upwards of $200 on one. We usually get the little $75 model, and have never found any problems...
By Michael Murphy (Murph) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 11:15 am:
Okay, I just checked out the link wumpus posted, and can see the value of spending a little more...
Still, we've never had any complaints. Mine works fine, other than being a little smaller than ideal, and I think I spent about fifty bucks on it.
By Tim Elhajj on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 02:20 pm:
On cases: I like to have easy access to my PC, so I'm willing to pay more for thumbscrews, sliding mobo drawers, and carefully machined part with no sharp edges. Not to mention that if you're going to overclock or stick a bunch of crap in the box, you're going to want good ventalation. All of that is pretty compelling, but there's one thing I'd like in a case that I just can't find: coolness. Why does it always have to look like a computer? Where are the Apple-like hood doors and colors? There's like one PC case that fits this description, but it's made of plastic and has no shielding whatsoever. What's up with that?
By wumpus on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 02:22 pm:
Erm, did you look at the case review link I posted (with pictures!)? The antec is black and quite stylish. It's no G4 cube, but then again, who would want that?
The *most* stylish cases right now IMO are the all-aluminum ones. Very fuckin' cool*. Check the GamePC case review archives for more details on that.
Besides, who wouldn't want a DeLorean style case?
* I blame the Sopranos
By Michael Murphy (Murph) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 02:28 pm:
Yeah, Wumpus, those pics were pretty sweet. I wouldn't mind having one of those cases, for sure. But is it worth it to shell over a couple hundred bucks extra for pure aesthetic value? Maybe for some, but if I could upgrade more important things for that kind of money.
Oh, and Tim, I like to have easy access to my PC, too, as do most guys who actually get inside their machine from time to time -- which is why, 99% of the time, I at least have the screws out with the top just sitting loosely on the machine, if it's sitting on the machine at all, and not on the other side of the room. (Which, by the way, is good for ventilation, too, but bad for dust!)
By TimElhajj on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 02:35 pm:
I'd like to keep my price to around ~700, if possible. I've got a spare 7200 40G Maxtor, plan on going with a cheap V5, and am willing to cut corners in other places to, if need be. What I'd like to spend the bulk of the money on is the core stuff, like CPU, Mobo, RAM & Case. That stuff is going to have to hold me for a year or two. The other stuff I can upgrade throughout the year, so it's okay if it's not top of the line.
BTW, thanks for the links wumpus. I like that Antec, too.
As for my current P3, it's a Katami. My Asus P2B is the wrong revision number and supposedly cannot support a Coppermine. Last year I was toying with the idea of yanking the mobo and doing mobo/cpu upgrade, but it still would have been kind of expensive so I decided to make due another year and then just build a whole new box. I'm going to use the P3 for work and overclock the be-jesus out of the new one.
By Tim Elhajj on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 02:49 pm:
"I'm at the point now where I don't panic when this happens"
Tell me about it! I built my first computer when the celerons first hit the market. I know people have been overclocking their cpu's for a while, but suddenly it was like overcolocking became this psudo-mainstream thing to do. I was feeling very daring, ordering all my parts. Man, did I feel bad when it refused to post. Panic, yes! This was back when I was smoking and I must have sucked down a pack of camels trying to figure it out. Unfiltered, no less. As it turns out, you really had to PUSH the cpu into the slot to get it to seat. What a rush when I hit the power button and it beeped hello.
Heh, back then I was doing game reviews for GamePen and I can remember submitting a short preview where--forget about the game--almost half a page was devoted to detailing every nuance of my hardware. I felt so virile!
By TimElhajj on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 02:51 pm:
"I tried to buy a V5, but I posted that whole story in another thread and won't bore everyone with it again
Humm... Where you the guy who bought two of them and neither worked? I think I remember something about this. Do you remember which thread it was in... I'm looking but not seeing anything obvious in the headers.
By Michael Murphy (Murph) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 03:00 pm:
According to pricewatch.com, you can bring in an Athlon 1GHz processor, with motherboard and cooling fan, for $394. However, you can get a 900 for under $200 (I think $186 was the exact number). So, you may want to ask yourself how badly you need that extra 100MHz. Personally, I think I'd save the two hundred bucks and pass up the 1GHz for now, but that's just me.
By wumpus on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 03:19 pm:
Gak! discus ate my message. :(
Anyway, an earlier poster was asking for "coolness", and aluminum cases are pretty much the pinnacle of coolness in PC cases right now. The question is, how much is cool worth to you?
However, the Antec case only goes for ~$100 on pricewatch and it's an excellent balance of nice looks, good design, and sturdy construction. Close to the ideal actually.
Also, agreed on the 900mhz Athlon vs. 1ghz. Get the best price/performance.
By Michael Murphy (Murph) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 03:28 pm:
Excellent price on that case. Dang it, Wumpus, you're starting to make me think of something else to bug my wife for... :-)
I hadn't realized it was so cheap. I may have to hunt for an excuse to get a new case.
By wumpus on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 03:33 pm:
"I'd like to keep my price to around ~700, if possible. I've got a spare 7200 40G Maxtor, plan on going with a cheap V5, and am willing to cut corners in other places to, if need be. What I'd like to spend the bulk of the money on is the core stuff, like CPU, Mobo, RAM & Case. That stuff is going to have to hold me for a year or two. The other stuff I can upgrade throughout the year, so it's okay if it's not top of the line. "
I recommend the http://www.azzo.com pre-built combos. Pick up the antec case, one of the azzo combos (your pick), and you're ready to roll.
Also, never underestimate the value of a nice monitor. Your video card will be worthless in 2 years, but a quality 5 year old monitor is still useful today.
By TimElhajj on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 04:14 pm:
I always get a little confused at Pricewatch. I'm seeing a 1ghz package with a kt7 and fan for 317. Which isn't bad. But I always get a little sqeamish when working with the lowest price vendors. Not sure why. I just feel like there must be some sort of catch, I guess.
How do you determine the vendor you want to work with Murph? Solely by price?
By TimElhajj on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 04:19 pm:
"Also, never underestimate the value of a nice monitor. Your video card will be worthless in 2 years, but a quality 5 year old monitor is still useful today.
Ah, so true! I'm learning this the hard way. The first monitor I ever bought was a 15" Sony. An excellent monitor! Last year I "upgraded" to a 19" Viewsonic, which is an OK monitor. At first I was quite thrilled, but now the size thing has worn off and I'm really noticing that the picture quality, especially with text or large patches of white, just isn't that good. It's not bad enough that I can't live with it, but when this monitor blows up, I'm going back to Sony or some other high quality monitor.
By TimElhajj on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 04:29 pm:
" I at least have the screws out with the top just sitting loosely on the machine,
Reminds me of a story about the time I was selling my old 386 in college back east. Like you, I kept the screws out and just sort of tucked the sides into the front lip of the case's face plate. Was explaining to a young coed what I had in my computer when I gave the case a little tap with my palm. Both sides sprung out from the faceplate with an audible "pop!" She was like, "what happend to your poor computer?" LOL, I guess she was expecting it to blow shortly thereafter, because she left quite quickly.
By Tim Elhajj on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 04:36 pm:
"However, the Antec case only goes for ~$100 on pricewatch and it's an excellent balance of nice looks, good design, and sturdy construction. Close to the ideal actually."
I'd say so!
Thanks for posting the link. I had actually checked out the review, but didn't expand the pictures. When you expand the pictures, which I just did when you mentioned the second time, you get a much better view of the case. I think this is the one for me. Thanks!
By TimElhajj on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 06:30 pm:
Azzo Question: Okay, I think azzo is for me. Are the chips they're selling already modified and ready to go? I'm thinking about the 800 T-bird, 256 CAS 2 RAM, and vanilla Abit KT7A. Why do they only say it will go to 980mhz? Most of what I'm reading says that the 800's are a pretty good bet to go to 1Ghz. Curious.
By wumpus on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 07:07 pm:
"Azzo Question: Okay, I think azzo is for me. Are the chips they're selling already modified and ready to go? I'm thinking about the 800 T-bird, 256 CAS 2 RAM, and vanilla Abit KT7A. Why do they only say it will go to 980mhz? Most of what I'm reading says that the 800's are a pretty good bet to go to 1Ghz. Curious. "
Azzo is a reputable vendor from all accounts. Although I haven't personally done business with them (haven't been buying a lot of CPUs or mobos recently-- I'm sticking with my P3 until Palomino appears), I would definitely buy this kit if I was in the market right now. They advertise a lot on HardOCP, and those guys are real sticklers..
The kits are sold set up, pre-tested and burned in with the mobo, cpu, and memory shown, which is nice. I'm sure they have to seperate the parts in order to ship it, but it was tested as a whole unit. As for the details on overclocked speed ratings, not sure-- you'll have to call or e-mail them. There are some guarantees and other info on the combo page.
By Michael Murphy (Murph) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 09:12 am:
Tim, we usually get the cheapest we can find, and haven't had any complaints yet. My father-in-law owns a business, and we've been using pricewatch recently. We've probably only built four or so machines with parts from them, but we haven't heard any complaints yet.
By TimElhajj on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 12:55 pm:
Thanks guys. After I get my parts and get it all built, I'll let you know how it turns out. Appreciate the help.
By wumpus on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 12:57 pm:
"Thanks guys. After I get my parts and get it all built, I'll let you know how it turns out. Appreciate the help. "
Cool! And remember, no advice is complete without screaming, accusatory posts directed at the source of the advice when you get it all and it doesn't work.
Happens every time.. ;)
By Michael Murphy (Murph) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 12:57 pm:
No problem, Tim. And if you have any questions, you know where to turn.
By TimElhajj on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 11:51 am:
My new 1.2Ghz AMD is sitting next to me, humming softly. Woo!
This was my first PC where after I stuck all the parts together, pluged it in, and it actually started right up. I blame it on superior case design, with decent instructions for how to orient the case pins. I went with the SX1030 pictured below. An excelent choice.
That's not to say that my building it wasn't fraught with peril. It was. When trying to put the enormous aftermarket heatsink/fan, I broke the catch off the socket. I could have chewed a nail in half. But when I went to the parts store the next day, the guy showed me a heatsink/fan with a different clipping mechinism and it worked! Talk about saving the day.
Anyhow- I have it setup at 133/33*9 and it runs sweet. Very stable so far. I actually tried for 1.4 Ghz last night, but it froze right after booting into windows. Any of you have any experiance with the KT7A's bios want to give me some pointers on what to try, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks for everyone's help! I actually did use the lowest bidder on pricewatch, although it's kind of missleading because invariably only one vendor has the part you want at the low price. Until you order from multiple vendors, shipping costs bite you in the butt. I did get a good price on the mobo and cpu, but it was cheaper to buy many of my parts locally.
I did go with good memory, too, which I think has made it easy to get to 1.2 via 133. But instead of Mushkin I want with Crucial because of cost.
Thanks guys. Appreciated all your suggestions and encouragement.
By TimElhajj on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 11:58 am:
Ah, final price for those that are interested came to about $1100
abit kt7a and amd 1.2: ~400
256 crucial: ~100
antec case: ~100
3 piece altec lansing speaker: ~50
thermoengine heatsink: ~45 (anyone want this?)
generic heatsink with way cool clipping mechinism: ~20
I migrated a maxtor 30G 7200/100 drive from my old machine. And I'm using a 100 KVM instead of new monitor.
By Michael Murphy (Murph) on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 12:09 pm:
Glad to hear that it's working well. Isn't that a good feeling? And if anything ever goes wrong, you'll know exactly how it ticks (figuratively) which is worth more than words could express.
By Gordon Berg on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 01:33 pm:
This site is *the* definitive resource for Abit KT7 boards. It helped me solve some slight irregularities I was having with my KT7 (and proved to me my other KT7-RAID was defective).
By Xaroc on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 01:51 pm:
If you get a chance check out this article. It won't help you overclock but it will help you wring every bit of performance out of your memory. By following the advice in this article I picked up about 20 fps in q3 (160ish to 180ish fps) and got a bigger bump (can't remember exactly) in UT due to its reliance on a faster overall system rather than just the video card.
One quick warning the one thing that did help performance but made my system unstable was the newer bios they suggested. I ended up having to go back to the older one but now my system is rock stable and very fast. The new bios only gave a slight increase from the old one so it wasn't a big deal to go back.
If you want to overclock the CPU you might need to turn down some of the things mentioned in this article. In other words make your memory run slower so the CPU can run faster. It is a trade off and either approach has it's advantages depending on the apps you normally run.
BTW, I run a KT7A w/Tbird [email protected]
By wumpus on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 06:36 pm:
Yeah, glad to hear a tale of success rather than of woe. Breaking a catch off the socket would have scared me too-- that can ruin a motherboard!
I would also concur with Xaroc above. These VIA chipsets, unlike Intel's, almost require you to tweak the memory to get good performance. The difference can be dramatic.