So, I'm playing Wizardry 8, and I realize that I spend the majority of my time in the game screwing around with my inventory. Then, I realize every RPG I can remember was like this, and unbidden images of tedium come to mind:

Hauling stacks of +2 swords back to town like some sort of goddamn mule, because I've already got +3 swords, and you need every last dime you can get.

Playing the profit maximization guessing game on what I should leave on the ground and what I should carry back to sell.

Camping out in shopkeeper's homes in the hopes they'll get a new shipment of throwing knives.

What the hell is wrong with RPGs, here? I don't think inventory management has progressed significantly since Wizardry I. Baldur's Gate II was nearly as bad of an offender as the Might and Magic series.

I can't think of any solutions, though. Have monsters drop gambling tokens you use to buy weapons? Gambling over and over sounds kind of boring. If they all dropped cash that'd remove the luck from equipment acquisition.

Augh!

I totally agree. Other guilty parties:

* Fallout
* Ultima IX

But I suppose it's pointless to name offenders, for as you say most are guilty of this. Can someone name an RPG that's solved the problem?

Hey, I just remembered a game that takes a different approach to the problem:

Resident Evil

Wherein there are magic inventory boxes which are infinitely deep, each one containing the exact same inventory.

I think I like that system. It eliminates much of the inventory tedium.

RE's approach "fixed" it by giving you infinite carrying capacity and a tiny possible set of inventory items. I'm not sure that's an improvement.

Really, I don't mind the shopping that much, and better UI design could fix hurling those suits of armor around. It's the "drag 1000 lbs of worthless items back to town to sell for money" part that's unfun.

Dude! Diablo II is all shopping. Take that away and there's no game left.

How can you possibly say this is a bad thing. It's positively un-american. What are you, some kind of communist pinko?

The part that bothers me the most is having to shuffle equipment from person to person to distribute the load evenly. Why not just have a party inventory pool, kind of like what they do with RPG money now? If you add someone to your group, the extra carrying capacity gets added to the pool. If you drop people from your group, you wouldn't get to pick up new stuff until you were below capacity again. This solution doesn't completely eliminate the problem, but it does reduce the tedium.

Alternately, they could take the System Shock 2 nanite recycler approach.

- Alan

'The part that bothers me the most is having to shuffle equipment from person to person to distribute the load evenly.'

Wizardry 8 automatically distributes load if you put everything in the party inventory, actually, so that's good. I'm thinking the SS2 nanite way is about it for big solutions, though.

No, this doesn't apply to Diablo. ;0

I think it does apply to Diablo, partly. Is it *fun* to town portal back to sell off all the magic items you find that aren't quite good enough? Didn't the Diablo expansion pack include a "convert item to gold" spell?

I disagree about one thing RE: your statement here -- in BGII, I have way more cash than I need. I've had upwards of 100K for a long time, now, and am routinely leaving +1 and +2 (and occasionally +3) stuff on the ground. (Yet, I'll still carry around that necklace worth 43gp -- what's up with that?) The gem bags and bags of holding, spell cases et. al. certainly help, though. I like those. Now, if you could have a scabbard that could hold twenty swords, I'd be psyched...

That's right, you can finish BGII with an assload of cash. That means you just spend half the game hauling stuff back, though; the advantage you get from playing the surplus game is enormous.

That's just it, though...I haven't been. Not for a long time. I did for awhile, but then realized that it seemed unnecessary. Not that I don't keep stuff, still, but...not to the degree that you seem to be.

Not that I disagree about the fundamental issue, but I have no ideas how to get around it. Anyone play the Final Fantasy Legends on the Game Boy? They had a pretty decent "group" inventory system that worked pretty well, I think...

"Is it *fun* to town portal back to sell off all the magic items you find that aren't quite good enough?"

And as if the slayer jungle isn't annoying enough, they had to put the goddamned smith way off on his own little island away from the portal and waypoint area. It was nice in Lut Gholien (sp?) with the smith, Cain, and the stash all right next to each other.

The bags of holding, gem bags, and spell and potion cases made hauling & selling loot a little easier in BG2. That sure helped in Throne of Bhaal as I blew plenty of cash paying the imp to make new items. A couple of times I actually *ran out* until I could find another willing buyer for my +9 Stack of +3 Swords and Armor.

I'd like to have a separate pool of inventory that would automatically sell in a lump at the next available opportunity. That way, I could evaluate things in the field, and toss them in there if all I want to do is sell them for gold.

Hey, that's a fine idea! Have a mass "junk pile" that you didn't have to worry about designating to any certain person -- sort of a bag that the party just lugged around. When you get to a store where you can sell stuff, it just gives you the option to mass-sell everything in the pile that the vendor would buy. (The game would still have to keep track of the items' identity for that, though. Perhaps some sort of auto-sell feature, so that the game tracks only the value, and adds it in once you get to ANY store?)

Interesting possibilities there.

See? Is this so hard? Developers, read this thread! We don't play games to spend 15 seconds running from one merchant to another!

It seems especially ridiculous if you try and think of it in terms of a real adventure. If you were reading a book, or watching a movie, or really undertaking such an adventure, how on earth could you carry the amount of stuff some games let us carry?? Backpack, my eye!!

Oh, well. Eventually someone will get it right. So far, BGII gets my vote for closest so far.

"It seems especially ridiculous if you try and think of it in terms of a real adventure. If you were reading a book, or watching a movie, or really undertaking such an adventure, how on earth could you carry the amount of stuff some games let us carry??"

It would be equally boring to read 15 pages describing the characters passing torches, iron springs (Arcanum), ropes, etc. back and forth, juggling inventory. Or how about 20 pages describing how the heroes were making progress in a dungeon but had to go back upstairs to sell a pile of crap at four different merchants, then hike or sail the long way back?

btw, the Wizarary 8 inventory management is the best ive seen in a game like it. They have a party pool that is easily sortable and scrollable. You can see by color if people are encumbered etc etc etc. GReat game btw!

Anyway, whats a crpg without inventory management but an adventure game?

I liken crpgs should be more tactical than "story - roleplaying oriented" since thats what they really are. DnD was based on wargaming (with an inventory for your heroes!), and its the father of all rpgs!

If you take away items and scrolls and potions and keys... well you have a crpg lite adventure game. I think most people like the item/treasure hunts (and managing it) in crpgs... something to work towards just levels! its the consumerist pig n all of us!

etc

I agree and disagree. While I love the fact that I have an inventory, and can choose which weapon to use, etc., there is a lot of tedium that could be done away with without detracting from the "RPG-ness" of the game.

"It seems especially ridiculous if you try and think of it in terms of a real adventure. "

Its fantasy... nothings real. Unless Mooks, Rawulfs and Elves are real. But yeah, some might not like the monty haul of these games.... but again what else is there for crpgs... or rpgs in general? The game has to make inventory management easier to use is all. or eliminate items that are useless. Most crpg developers know the problems of unneccesary clutter. Its not like they add these items in to make it harder. If the choice were to have more or have less... i definitely would rather have more for the choice.

and Wizardry 8 surprised me because the interface for inventory is much easier to use for a game like it. Sortable, or sortable by multple types, scrollable, colored out non usable items, spellbooks that cant be learned are stated by right click, equipable non equipable items types etc. Wizardry 8 (so far of what ive played) is the tightest and most polished crpgs since.... well as far back as the early days (Wizardry 1)!

etc

I'm really impressed with the game also. It's might and magic without all the annoying bits from might and magic (grafted on turn-based system, for one).

They could have added a key to buy an entire stack at once from the shops, though.

"some might not like the monty haul of these games.... but again what else is there for crpgs... or rpgs in general?"

Er... In the ones that actually matter: interesting storylines, characters you care about, humor, drama, and god forbid political and/or philosophical commentary.

Examples:

* Fallout (cultural/political satire)
* Ultima IV (morality themes)
* Deus Ex (satire/acid trip on conspiracy theory)
* Anachranox (humor, characters)

For me, the combat and inventory management is (necessary) filler which stretches out the progress of the story/drama/humor/design ideas in an enjoyable way. If the story and its themes suck, I'm not going to bother putting in hours of hack and slash. For instance, I don't give a crap about Diablo. Fallout is probably my fave, along with some of the Ultimas.

I had to crop up eventually on a roleplaying thread. Inventory management is one of my banes but within limits it helps maintain suspension of disbelief. I like getting to equip characters as it helps provide a sense of customization - just like improving skills in an open ended skill based system or kitting out a Battlemech from salvaged parts. The best way to minimize micromanagement but preserve a sense of control and individuality is the system that Darklands uses. Fussy little things like spell components and gold take up zero weight and are shared in a pool. Think how much better it would be to play a technologist in Arcanum would be if they followed a similiar premise with parts for inventions.

I'm not really interested in prescripted storylines or clever writing which I can generally get in better quality from other kinds of media. It's nice not to have bad writing or unimaginative settings on the other hand. My main concern is freedom to create one's own story and experience. The best purely CRPG example remains Daggerfall with a strategy game, King of Dragon Pass, coming in a close second.

One thing I'd like to see in RPGs is a "home base" of sorts, where you can always store your excess goods you might want or need later. Trekking there would be like going home after a hard day's work. Provided there were some options for customization of your domicile, it would certainly add to the game and it would also give your characters some kind of roots in the world. I mean, these guys are always nomads, what's up with that?

Console RPGs have done this to a limited extent I think.

--Dave

"One thing I'd like to see in RPGs is a "home base" of sorts, where you can always store your excess goods you might want or need later."

BGII did this with the strongholds. Although I thought it kind of strange that the paladin pc is given a room in the Order's HQ but you can't rest there.

What about just adding real mules to the game and putting big saddlebags on them? Lots of carrying space, but for those that want the 'realism' you now have to worry about new logistics: Can the mules fit in corridors, will they get in the way in combat, do they need to eat, what to do if one gets killed?, and who will clean up the donkey shit?

Or do like the really old D&D game did, where you didn't just party with five or six guys, but had a whole convoy of NPC porters, hirelings, and torch bearers.

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What about just adding real mules to the game and putting big saddlebags on them? Lots of carrying space, but for those that want the 'realism' you now have to worry about new logistics: Can the mules fit in corridors, will they get in the way in combat, do they need to eat, what to do if one gets killed?, and who will clean up the donkey shit?

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I've had upwards of 100K for a long time, now, and am routinely leaving +1 and +2 (and occasionally +3) stuff on the ground.

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according to one of the video clips they have on gamespot for DS, i believe taylor says that the mule can be leveled, killed, etc. it can fight along with the party, but if it gets killed, you lose everything on it.

tho, i could be wrong. maybe it was all a dream. look up the DS clips on gamespot and find out. :)

- mike - am i dreaming? n-n-n-n-no... -

The closest crpg that I actually liked for a balance of story and strategy, at least recently, was Summoner. Though it was painfully easy (console easy) the story was cool, the graphics top notch and the interface pretty clean and efficient. If they had added the difficulty of a Wizardry 8, Summoner would have been a VERY good crpg. Deep down Summoner was a crpg "dumbed down" to be winnable by even an idiot. Same thing with Anachronox, like Summoner had everything but challenge. Thats why I precisely like Wiz 8, it made no compromises in gameplay challenge.

If its story and atmosphere you REALLY want you're playing the wrong rpgs. Console rpgs have much more story at the expense of challenge. And action/adventure/rpg games offer a more "visceral" experience (ala deusex, drakkan and SS2)... at the expense of gameplay depth.

etc

'If its story and atmosphere you REALLY want you're playing the wrong rpgs. Console rpgs have much more story at the expense of challenge.'

All the console RPGs I've seen are etierh written and/or translated a at a third-grade level, or involve the Same Japanese Stereotyped Plot over and over. Bleagh.

I'm talking about the kind of crap where grown mind cry over the FF series. Jesus.

Well, you're a caca-poopoo!

He pee pee in my poo poo i like that FF because i cry like i die!

Cmon, console rpgs arent THAT bad. What ones have you played btw? I actually enjoyed Skies of Arcadia and Grandia 2 more than BG2 if thats any indication.

etc

Baldur's Gate 2 is the finest RPG ever! Anyone who says otherwise shall be marked a blasphemer!!

Fallout bettah. Nyah.

Not a chance, blasphemer!! J

'Cmon, console rpgs arent THAT bad.'

I know, I know; I really haven't played much since the days of the NES. This is from watching what my friends play. Well, that, and finding posts on USENET where people talk about bursting into tears where that one girl sacrifices herself in the FF series. In pidgin english (the girl, not the guy playing).

They're functionally just fine from a gameplay standpoint, but I can't stand the japanese-culture driven plots.

Actually console RPGs *are* that bad, but I play 'em anyway.

Comparing BG2 and Fallout is like comparing Granny Smith and Red Delicious. Uh, nevermind.

- Alan

What, BG2 works better in a pie?

FFVII didn't make me cry, but there's definitely a lot more emotional attachment to the characters in Japanese console RPGs. But that's because there's a greater emphasis on character development in that style of game.

Brad Grenz

Console rpgs also tend to be more "colorful", not the right word, but alot of em are a nice change of pace from the gnerally "drab" feel of crpgs.

Surprsingly i sometimes prefer console rpgs because they tend to retain that old turn based crpg feel that most newer crpgs dont have. The combat in the final fantasies for instance, feel alot like the old Bards Tales and Wizardry games... although much easier.

etc

Interesting Thread. Dave mentioned that you guys were discussing pack mules. Yes, we have them in Dungeon Siege, and yes, they do go up in level with the party. We hide the stats because we don't have a paper-doll for the pack mule, it just gets experience when a member of the party does so that it won't be killed easily in the higher levels, or become a killing machine either. It can fight, but generally it won't do well, but there are times when it could come through. I will be interested to hear what you guys think when we release in April.

Is it a mule or a M.U.L.E.?

"I will be interested to hear what you guys think when we release in April."

April? You promise? ;)

-Andrew

I'm excited about Dungeon Siege, but I'd give my firstborn child to play Total Annihilation 2.

Please, God, let that be the next game in the GPG development schedule. ;)

i will echo that, too.

i look forward to dungeon siege, and really, the only reason i *DO* look forward to it is that it's a chris taylor game- TA didn't do me wrong, and really ignited my fires about the RTS type games, only to leave me dis-satisfied with all the others.. to this day, i still have TA installed on my Win2k and WinXP machines and play a couple rounds every week or so. TA had QUALITY _and_ QUANTITY. this is WHY i look forward to another CT/GPG game, in this case dungeon siege.

i wish i could specifically nail down what it is that made TA such a rant-worthy game for me; i don't exactly know what it is, unfortunately- it could be the graphics, the sounds, the music, the ease-of-usage for the controls, the huge selection of units, the variety of the maps, the 3rd-party unit/mod/map communities, the online gameplay... really, any or all of that combined.

ok, enough about TA. :P hopefully, DS will echo much of the good design qualities that the developer's preceeding game had. :) i just want more info/pictures/MUSIC! about/from DS. :D

oh yeah, and i want TA2, too. is that too much to ask for?

- mike - CT/GPG groupie who would love to beta test CT/GPG games -

Thanks Chris, April is perfect. I'll be finished with the accounting busy season and ready to siege dungeons.