Solium Infernum Saturday night "liveblogging"

TomChick · 11-21-2009, 10:04 PM

Since Bruce broke out last game, we're starting a new game. Me, Troy Goodfellow, and Bruce Geryk, thrown into Hell with three AI dudes. Since Bruce cheaped out with a rush build in our first game -- take a Prince with a bad-ass starting unit and just grab Places of Power early on -- it looks like that's exactly what we're all doing this time. We're all three Princes, which also means no one has a diplomatic leg up on the others. Even one of the AI dudes in a Prince.

Fortunately, I started right next to the Mines of Gehenna, one of the few formidable Place of Power that gives you two prestige per turn instead of just one. Also, I managed to draw enough resources on my first turn to snag the Broken Wheel, an artifact that's particularly useful for attacking Places of Power. So, as of turn 2, I get a bad-ass Place of Power.

Unfortunately, so do those jerks. How did you guys do that so quickly?

-Tom

ckessel · 11-21-2009, 10:07 PM

So, is that the only opening strategy (the land grab) or are there other paths that would make sense?

baelthazar · 11-21-2009, 10:08 PM

This only increases my frustrations at not having this game... ;)

Tom, sounds great, I'm excited for the public release! Can you post some screens to show us your lovely, fat, greedy, Archfiend?

Bael

Troy S Goodfellow · 11-21-2009, 10:09 PM

The map seems rich in Places of Power, so you of course want to grab a weak one as soon as you can with your starting legion - if you can. But there's also the early game rush for fresh legions, and you have to buy these with tribute you collect. And Tom and Bruce each buy a second legion before I do.

Since you start with only two actions per turn, the game gets annoying by about turn 3. If you have two legions, moving both means you can't demand tribute since that counts as an action. The early land grab is important, but you also want to get the first leg up on troops, Praetors (generals) or relics (power ups) which might mean letting one legion not grab land.

Ultimately, territory is the big thing. But you can't wait too long on the other stuff.

Troy

TomChick · 11-21-2009, 10:09 PM

I think if you don't get a place of power early on, you can fall behind. However, since you can't just willy nilly grab other dudes' territory (there's a thick layer of diplomacy before any open conflict), you can basically surround a place of power even if you can't capture it yet. Sort of saving it for later.

BTW, Bruce, don't think I don't see you racing for the Pillar of Skulls. You can just break off now, because with the way the sceptre is passing, I'll get there first. Ha ha.

-Tom

Troy S Goodfellow · 11-21-2009, 10:17 PM

See, the good thing about playing a game against Tom and Bruce is that you know they will eventually turn on each other like all arch-enemies do. And siblings. And lovers.

Anyway, we have other players - AI opponents. So one of the metagames here will be to see who can screw over the idiots in the room first.

I'm surrounded by gorges that cut off my quick movements, so it looks like I'm going to get hosed in the early rush for Places of Power. The AI is immediately to my right, so I have one flank that won't be a huge problem for now.

Troy

TomChick · 11-21-2009, 10:18 PM

This particular game we've just started has a new twist. The Infernal Bazaar sells a random assortment of armies and items. In this game, there are *two* (!) relics for sale that give you prestige. So even if you get shut out of the land grab, which seems pretty even distributed at this point, there are goodies for sale that are the equivalent of two places of power. They're fairly expensive, though.

I call dibbs on both of them.

-Tom

Troy S Goodfellow · 11-21-2009, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomChick

This particular game we've just started has a new twist. The Infernal Bazaar randomly puts up for sale to everyone in the game a random assortment of armies and items. In this game, there are *two* relics for sale that give you prestige. So even if you get shut out of the land grab, which seems pretty even distributed at this point, there are goodies for sale that are the equivalent of two places of power. They're fairly expensive, though.

I call dibbs on both of them.

-Tom

No dibbs.

Troy

TomChick · 11-21-2009, 10:22 PM

Ha ha, Bruce started right next to two Places of Power. He grabbed the crappy one -- the Vats of Torment -- and now it looks like an AI player, Moloch, is going to take the better one -- The Woods of the Suicide.

And that looks like that's that for the land rush phase. Within five turns, everything's been divvied up. Now to either hunker down or carve up the spaces in between.

-Tom

Brooski · 11-21-2009, 10:22 PM

I have spent most of my "game journalistic" career trying to convince people that Tom Chick is the devil. I think this game constitutes objective, factual proof that the reality-based community can really get its collective head around. Troy, on the other hand, is Canadian, which probably constitutes the least infernally-compatible constituency possible. Do you think they have Hell in Thunder Bay? If not, they'd probably offer tax incentives to get it to move there, for the heat at least.

As Tom pointed out, I basically cheap-rushed the previous game by making a pretender/archfiend/union leader who could take advantage of early combat to build a big Prestige lead. So now he and Troy are going to do the same thing, because it seems that I have to think for all of us. That's ok - thinking for Tom Chick has been my burden for years.

My initial board position gets me two Places of Power pretty close to me: Wood of Suicides and Vats of Torment. The Vats are father away but weaker, while the Woods are right next to me but a bit tougher. I am going to gamble that no one will take the Woods while I go get the Vats. I am a little more confident in this bet because the closest player to them is the AI.

I have more to say but I need to get these turns moving and not fall behind in postings. More in the next installment.

TomChick · 11-21-2009, 10:25 PM

See, now that you let Moloch take the Wood of the Suicides, he's kicking all our asses on the prestige front. Nice work, Geryk. Way to let the AI win.

-Tom

TomChick · 11-21-2009, 10:29 PM

Troy, you've got a clear shot right to the Bronze Pyramid. Balphagor doesn't have anything that can take it.

-Tom

Troy S Goodfellow · 11-21-2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomChick

Troy, you've got a clear shot right to the Bronze Pyramid. Balphagor doesn't have anything that can take it.

-Tom

Yeah, and I'm heading that way with my Legion of Doom*

Troy

*Unit may or may not actually be a Legion of Doom. But they were cheap.

Brooski · 11-21-2009, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomChick

See, now that you let Moloch take the Wood of the Suicides, he's kicking all our asses on the prestige front. Nice work, Geryk. Way to let the AI win.

Whatevs.

So the AI decided to go ahead and grab that Place of Power. here is a PR0T1P: the AI loves to let you make demands of it. Like, want three Tribute cards? Just demand that the AI give you some, and they will all fall into line like Chamberlain or Daladier. My plan was to make demands of our boy Moloch so I can Vendetta , but I guarantee you that if I do, he will just buckle, and sign away the Czechs *like that.* That will make grabbing the Woods a little more difficult.

Other than that, I have no strategy. I will say that if this were a game with six real live human players, I would be sending tons of emails out right now. Solium Infernum really does have a lot in common with Diplomacy, in that while the mechanics are relatively straightforward, the interaction of those mechanics is very involved. I'm really digging it.

TomChick · 11-21-2009, 10:46 PM

Bruce, you'll note that Moloch is a prince like you. Unlike making demands from guys at a lower rank, you can't ask for cool stuff like territory. He'll just laugh at you.

-Tom

Brooski · 11-21-2009, 10:48 PM

Then I will KICK HIM IN THE HEAD.

Troy S Goodfellow · 11-21-2009, 10:50 PM

Bruce's comparison to Diplomacy is pretty much dead on. Because of the way prestige can be gained and lost, I can see a lot of duplicitous possibilities for a 6 player match. Just as in Diplomacy you can pretend to be someone's enemy but actually have a secret alliance with a dancing exchange of territory or coincidental bumping of armies, the exchange of demands and insults can be worked in such a way to mask what is really happening.

The big difference is that Diplomacy is a war of all against all. SI requires a state of war ("vendetta") before you can move into an enemy's zones. And the map wraps around, making threats a little bit harder to judge (especially since the map view is never quite big enough to see everything.)

Anyway, one AI opponent snaked past the Bronze Pyramid and I see why. It has pretty good range weapons. My advancing legion does not, but I still think I can take it without getting wiped out.

Troy

Unicorn McGriddle · 11-21-2009, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy S Goodfellow

And the map wraps around, making threats a little bit harder to judge (especially since the map view is never quite big enough to see everything).

Scrolling the map was a big pain in Armageddon Empires, but it sounds just right for Solium Infernum and its wrap-around world. Endless, yet claustrophobic.

RepoMan · 11-21-2009, 10:55 PM

OMG THEY REALLY ARE LIVEBLOGGING IT. And I just ate a fantastic fucking meal and must sleep now. Oh well, it'll be fun to see who's a smoking crater and who's a badass devil tomorrow.

Troy S Goodfellow · 11-21-2009, 10:56 PM

DEFEAT!

My stupid Hell's Angels guys were eliminated at the Bronze Tower, and I lost prestige. So I am now down a legion and humiliated in front of all the other Princes of Darkness. I see Dick Cheney chuckling in the background.

Troy

TomChick · 11-21-2009, 10:57 PM

Now is the time when we seem to be sitting back collecting resources. Although I have a pretty nifty surprise coming up in a few turns. I cackled as I typed that!

-Tom

TomChick · 11-21-2009, 10:59 PM

How did you lose, Troy? Barring combat cards and the battle initiative roll, it should be clear whether you're going to win. Did the battle initiative screw you?

-Tom

Brooski · 11-21-2009, 11:05 PM

Hey, do you guys know if your Attributes or whatever influence the TYPE of mana tribute that you get? It seems like I am always short of Water, or whatever the Hellish equivalent of the water symbol actually is. I know that Charisma affects the quality of your Tribute, but does something else influence the type? Or is Water in short supply simply because that is the most historically accurate representation?

TomChick · 11-21-2009, 11:10 PM

That's not water, that's ichor!

I don't know the answer to how it handles the distribution, but I can tell you that I'm desperately in need of a couple of points of a specific resource before I make my next move, and I'm not drawing them. It really does capture the feeling of Hell.

-Tom

Troy S Goodfellow · 11-21-2009, 11:16 PM

Ichor? I just called it blood.

AFAIK, the rule of tribute is that you are never allowed to draw the items you want, so the trick is to pretend you want something else.

Like right now, the game thinks I want blood, but I really want hellfire.

Troy

TomChick · 11-21-2009, 11:21 PM

U guys R doing it wrong! It's not blood or water, it's ichor.

Souls, ichor, hellfire, and darkness. See? Easy. It's like food, wood, gold, and stone, but the Hell versions.

-Tom

TomChick · 11-21-2009, 11:23 PM

Sweet! I got the draw I needed and then some. Suck it, you guys.

-Tom

TomChick · 11-21-2009, 11:28 PM

Rats, I was hoping that Capricious Wrath would hit one of you guys' legions. Instead, it got one of the AI dudes who was in last place. Pfft.

-Tom

checkers · 11-21-2009, 11:30 PM

Is the AI any good?

Brooski · 11-21-2009, 11:39 PM

I just declared Vendetta on Moloch this turn. When I made my demand, I asked for 4 Tribute cards. That's a pretty hefty Demand. So, he rejected it, and I declared Vendetta. The thing is, he's a Prince, so I can't just cherry-pick a Place of Power, like I did in a previous game where I WON, thank you so much. Here, my choices are 3 Places of Power, 7 Cantons, destroy 2 Legions, or some other stuff that is even more heinous. I'm going for the 7 Cantons, because I think I can get that. I'm not sure his legions would stand and fight, and I am almost positive I could not get to a third Place of Power and take it from him. Let's see what happens.

11-21-2009, 10:04 PM	#1
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	Solium Infernum Saturday night "liveblogging" Since Bruce broke out last game, we're starting a new game. Me, Troy Goodfellow, and Bruce Geryk, thrown into Hell with three AI dudes. Since Bruce cheaped out with a rush build in our first game -- take a Prince with a bad-ass starting unit and just grab Places of Power early on -- it looks like that's exactly what we're all doing this time. We're all three Princes, which also means no one has a diplomatic leg up on the others. Even one of the AI dudes in a Prince. Fortunately, I started right next to the Mines of Gehenna, one of the few formidable Place of Power that gives you two prestige per turn instead of just one. Also, I managed to draw enough resources on my first turn to snag the Broken Wheel, an artifact that's particularly useful for attacking Places of Power. So, as of turn 2, I get a bad-ass Place of Power. Unfortunately, so do those jerks. How did you guys do that so quickly? -Tom

11-21-2009, 10:07 PM	#2
ckessel Mad Chester Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,124	So, is that the only opening strategy (the land grab) or are there other paths that would make sense?

11-21-2009, 10:08 PM	#3
baelthazar Broad Band Join Date: May 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 194	This only increases my frustrations at not having this game... ;) Tom, sounds great, I'm excited for the public release! Can you post some screens to show us your lovely, fat, greedy, Archfiend? Bael

11-21-2009, 10:09 PM	#4
Troy S Goodfellow New Romantic Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 6,065	The map seems rich in Places of Power, so you of course want to grab a weak one as soon as you can with your starting legion - if you can. But there's also the early game rush for fresh legions, and you have to buy these with tribute you collect. And Tom and Bruce each buy a second legion before I do. Since you start with only two actions per turn, the game gets annoying by about turn 3. If you have two legions, moving both means you can't demand tribute since that counts as an action. The early land grab is important, but you also want to get the first leg up on troops, Praetors (generals) or relics (power ups) which might mean letting one legion not grab land. Ultimately, territory is the big thing. But you can't wait too long on the other stuff. Troy

11-21-2009, 10:17 PM	#6
Troy S Goodfellow New Romantic Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 6,065	See, the good thing about playing a game against Tom and Bruce is that you know they will eventually turn on each other like all arch-enemies do. And siblings. And lovers. Anyway, we have other players - AI opponents. So one of the metagames here will be to see who can screw over the idiots in the room first. I'm surrounded by gorges that cut off my quick movements, so it looks like I'm going to get hosed in the early rush for Places of Power. The AI is immediately to my right, so I have one flank that won't be a huge problem for now. Troy

11-21-2009, 10:18 PM	#7
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	This particular game we've just started has a new twist. The Infernal Bazaar sells a random assortment of armies and items. In this game, there are two (!) relics for sale that give you prestige. So even if you get shut out of the land grab, which seems pretty even distributed at this point, there are goodies for sale that are the equivalent of two places of power. They're fairly expensive, though. I call dibbs on both of them. -Tom

11-21-2009, 10:22 PM	#9
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	Ha ha, Bruce started right next to two Places of Power. He grabbed the crappy one -- the Vats of Torment -- and now it looks like an AI player, Moloch, is going to take the better one -- The Woods of the Suicide. And that looks like that's that for the land rush phase. Within five turns, everything's been divvied up. Now to either hunker down or carve up the spaces in between. -Tom

11-21-2009, 10:22 PM	#10
Brooski Spinning Toe Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 603	I have spent most of my "game journalistic" career trying to convince people that Tom Chick is the devil. I think this game constitutes objective, factual proof that the reality-based community can really get its collective head around. Troy, on the other hand, is Canadian, which probably constitutes the least infernally-compatible constituency possible. Do you think they have Hell in Thunder Bay? If not, they'd probably offer tax incentives to get it to move there, for the heat at least. As Tom pointed out, I basically cheap-rushed the previous game by making a pretender/archfiend/union leader who could take advantage of early combat to build a big Prestige lead. So now he and Troy are going to do the same thing, because it seems that I have to think for all of us. That's ok - thinking for Tom Chick has been my burden for years. My initial board position gets me two Places of Power pretty close to me: Wood of Suicides and Vats of Torment. The Vats are father away but weaker, while the Woods are right next to me but a bit tougher. I am going to gamble that no one will take the Woods while I go get the Vats. I am a little more confident in this bet because the closest player to them is the AI. I have more to say but I need to get these turns moving and not fall behind in postings. More in the next installment.

11-21-2009, 10:25 PM	#11
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	See, now that you let Moloch take the Wood of the Suicides, he's kicking all our asses on the prestige front. Nice work, Geryk. Way to let the AI win. -Tom

11-21-2009, 10:29 PM	#12
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	Troy, you've got a clear shot right to the Bronze Pyramid. Balphagor doesn't have anything that can take it. -Tom

11-21-2009, 10:46 PM	#15
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	Bruce, you'll note that Moloch is a prince like you. Unlike making demands from guys at a lower rank, you can't ask for cool stuff like territory. He'll just laugh at you. -Tom

11-21-2009, 10:48 PM	#16
Brooski Spinning Toe Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 603	Then I will KICK HIM IN THE HEAD.

11-21-2009, 10:50 PM	#17
Troy S Goodfellow New Romantic Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 6,065	Bruce's comparison to Diplomacy is pretty much dead on. Because of the way prestige can be gained and lost, I can see a lot of duplicitous possibilities for a 6 player match. Just as in Diplomacy you can pretend to be someone's enemy but actually have a secret alliance with a dancing exchange of territory or coincidental bumping of armies, the exchange of demands and insults can be worked in such a way to mask what is really happening. The big difference is that Diplomacy is a war of all against all. SI requires a state of war ("vendetta") before you can move into an enemy's zones. And the map wraps around, making threats a little bit harder to judge (especially since the map view is never quite big enough to see everything.) Anyway, one AI opponent snaked past the Bronze Pyramid and I see why. It has pretty good range weapons. My advancing legion does not, but I still think I can take it without getting wiped out. Troy

11-21-2009, 10:55 PM	#19
RepoMan New Romantic Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Playing the "New Dad" game 24/7 for the win. Gamertag: Rodeolio Posts: 7,954	OMG THEY REALLY ARE LIVEBLOGGING IT. And I just ate a fantastic fucking meal and must sleep now. Oh well, it'll be fun to see who's a smoking crater and who's a badass devil tomorrow.

11-21-2009, 10:56 PM	#20
Troy S Goodfellow New Romantic Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 6,065	DEFEAT! My stupid Hell's Angels guys were eliminated at the Bronze Tower, and I lost prestige. So I am now down a legion and humiliated in front of all the other Princes of Darkness. I see Dick Cheney chuckling in the background. Troy

11-21-2009, 10:57 PM	#21
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	Now is the time when we seem to be sitting back collecting resources. Although I have a pretty nifty surprise coming up in a few turns. I cackled as I typed that! -Tom

11-21-2009, 10:59 PM	#22
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	How did you lose, Troy? Barring combat cards and the battle initiative roll, it should be clear whether you're going to win. Did the battle initiative screw you? -Tom

11-21-2009, 11:05 PM	#23
Brooski Spinning Toe Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 603	Hey, do you guys know if your Attributes or whatever influence the TYPE of mana tribute that you get? It seems like I am always short of Water, or whatever the Hellish equivalent of the water symbol actually is. I know that Charisma affects the quality of your Tribute, but does something else influence the type? Or is Water in short supply simply because that is the most historically accurate representation?

11-21-2009, 11:10 PM	#24
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	That's not water, that's ichor! I don't know the answer to how it handles the distribution, but I can tell you that I'm desperately in need of a couple of points of a specific resource before I make my next move, and I'm not drawing them. It really does capture the feeling of Hell. -Tom

11-21-2009, 11:16 PM	#25
Troy S Goodfellow New Romantic Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 6,065	Ichor? I just called it blood. AFAIK, the rule of tribute is that you are never allowed to draw the items you want, so the trick is to pretend you want something else. Like right now, the game thinks I want blood, but I really want hellfire. Troy

11-21-2009, 11:21 PM	#26
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	U guys R doing it wrong! It's not blood or water, it's ichor. Souls, ichor, hellfire, and darkness. See? Easy. It's like food, wood, gold, and stone, but the Hell versions. -Tom

11-21-2009, 11:23 PM	#27
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	Sweet! I got the draw I needed and then some. Suck it, you guys. -Tom

11-21-2009, 11:28 PM	#28
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	Rats, I was hoping that Capricious Wrath would hit one of you guys' legions. Instead, it got one of the AI dudes who was in last place. Pfft. -Tom

11-21-2009, 11:30 PM	#29
checkers Mad Chester Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, AU Posts: 1,075	Is the AI any good?

11-21-2009, 11:39 PM	#30
Brooski Spinning Toe Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 603	I just declared Vendetta on Moloch this turn. When I made my demand, I asked for 4 Tribute cards. That's a pretty hefty Demand. So, he rejected it, and I declared Vendetta. The thing is, he's a Prince, so I can't just cherry-pick a Place of Power, like I did in a previous game where I WON, thank you so much. Here, my choices are 3 Places of Power, 7 Cantons, destroy 2 Legions, or some other stuff that is even more heinous. I'm going for the 7 Cantons, because I think I can get that. I'm not sure his legions would stand and fight, and I am almost positive I could not get to a third Place of Power and take it from him. Let's see what happens.

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Solium Infernum Saturday night "liveblogging"