I made a fun little chart of BioWare RPG Cliches... and someone took it seriously

Sol Invictus · 11-09-2009, 07:19 AM

I whipped up a fun little chart on the weekend after hours of playing Dragon Age with tropes/cliches used in Bioware's narrative structure and Bioware writer Patrick Weekes seems to have taken it very seriously despite the fact that I mentioned it was all supposed to be tongue-in-cheek and not as any kind of criticism towards their games (which I very much enjoy). It's all very amusing.

http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/...G-Cliche-Chart

Even EuroGamer has written about it here:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/bi...tory-structure

Zylon · 11-09-2009, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Websense

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Fun times!

Brian Rucker · 11-09-2009, 07:33 AM

I mentioned this in another thread but there's actually an NPC in the game who addresses this directly!

You can ask Leliana to tell you stories. In the one there's a option to reply "I saw that coming!". She'll patiently explain to you why stories have familiar elements before continuing. It cracked me up. And then, of course, the story doesn't go where you thought it would.

In fact, all the familiar tropes (as a gamer and reformed reader of fantasy fiction not as a Bioware fan - I'm not really or wasn't until now) seem turned around and spun into interesting new directions. There may be similiarities with Bioware's other games but I'm blissfully ignorant of most of them after finding KOTOR and Baldur's Gate not to my tastes.

extarbags · 11-09-2009, 07:38 AM

Quote:

So I'm supposed to believe someone is smart enough to do a big Excel spreadsheet with color coding and stuff but not smart enough to know about Campbellian archetypes?

Yeah, guys, every BioWare game has the same plot! See, things are kind of normal, and then things change and you have to go out and do stuff, and you go to crazy weird places! Aaaaaand so yeah, totally the same story.

So how come this only sticks out with Bioware's games and not every developer's, or every producer of fiction of any kind?

Lame. Guy should try to sound less ridiculous the next time he takes something way too seriously.

Edit: Also, his number one reason that Bioware includes the same structure in every game is "it's easy." "Hey man, I know you think you're funny with your little 'every game Bioware makes is the same' chart, but did it ever occur to you that it's easier that way, asshole? Did you ever even stop and think that maybe not re-making our own games every couple of years would be harder? Dickhead."

ceolstan · 11-09-2009, 07:38 AM

Joseph Campbell, Hero with a Thousand Faces, has a lot to say about familiar elements from story to story, but part of what makes for good writing is to make the story seem fresh regardless of how many times a trope has been used. Mary Sue characters are a good example of hack writing that takes the familiar and turns it into--behold!--more cliche!

Tim James · 11-09-2009, 07:41 AM

Good post. I make fun of Bioware a lot too but they should just embrace it because:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Weekes

BioWare knows how to make these games, make them solid and workable, and ship them

I give them credit for doing low-variance work very very well. I may never be floored again by a game they make like I would by an indie game or something out of east Europe, but I will enjoy myself thoroughly.

Compare that with Creative Assembly, like we were talking about a couple of months ago. They keep breaking their new games, or adding content that doesn't work.

Murbella · 11-09-2009, 07:41 AM

As with a lot of cliche complaints, a lot of them were a pretty huge stretch that you wouldn't see as a cliche unless you were specifically looking to make a chart about it.

Jag · 11-09-2009, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceolstan

Joseph Campbell, Hero with a Thousand Faces, has a lot to say about familiar elements from story to story.

He totally ripped off Star Wars.

madkevin · 11-09-2009, 07:53 AM

DA:O is like one part Return Of The King, one part Star Wars and one part Army Of Darkness, with just a smidgen of one specific Twilight Zone episode thrown in at one point for good measure. That's not a criticism, because I like all of those things. (More or less.) But at least DA:O has the good grace to at least be semi-aware of it's own references without going to the Fallout 2 tongue-in-cheek extremes.

Kevin Grey · 11-09-2009, 07:57 AM

The only repetitive aspect of Bioware's games that kind of bugs me is the aforementioned "here are four areas you can choose to tackle in any order". It does feel very formulaic and I kind of rolled my eyes when I got to that part of Dragon Age. But it was interesting reading Bioware's reasoning for this structure.

I did think for a time they were a little too proud of their Sixth Sense moment in KOTOR and were forever going to try and include a "super plot twist that you will never, ever see coming that will make you view the game in a whole new light" in every game because I found it too obvious in Jade Empire. However Mass Effect broke them of that so I'm not necessarily expecting it in DA (and please no one say if that's the case or not).

Brian Rucker · 11-09-2009, 08:00 AM

Bioware's done some clever things in how they put together the setting and play with expectations in the story if you know what you're looking for. Sure, there are familiar elements from all of those stories but, the truth is, those stories themselves are just retellings of older tales in different clothes. I probably don't get all the tropes myself because I don't read that much fantasy or play many fantasy RPGs anymore but the ones I get I really get and the historical elements they embellish and mutate are really cool.

Murbella · 11-09-2009, 08:01 AM

Having multiple objectives you need to pursue to complete one overarching objective is more formulaic than an open world game like oblivion or fallout 3? What would be the definition of original, if you just had to go one place to get help from The Elite Knight Crusader Death Troops instead of three or five or whatever? That doesn't sound like a very well written story.

Naeblis · 11-09-2009, 08:03 AM

I lol'd since "Campbellian archetype" quote.

No, really, every hack writer who writes tripe fantasy (or scifi, or superheroes comics) books with typical good vs evil tropes uses the same arguments (not saying it's the case here):

It's "campbellian", they are "powerful archetypes used by the great stories of humanity since the greeks and before", "readers understand it" (players here instead of reader), "it's classical for a reason", "There's nothing wrong with it", etc etc.

But hey, i never liked the simple, straighforward, boring, good vs evil stories since loots of years ago, so put me in the "against" camp. One of the reasons i was never hot for Bioware games.

malkav11 · 11-09-2009, 08:11 AM

Not to spoil DA, but I thought a particular sequence very definitely fit the "a big battle changes everything" shared theme, not just loosely.

Paul_cze · 11-09-2009, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naeblis

I lol'd since "Campbellian archetype" quote.

No, really, every hack writer who writes tripe fantasy (or scifi, or superheroes comics) books with typical good vs evil tropes uses the same arguments (not saying it's the case here):

It's "campbellian", they are "powerful archetypes used by the great stories of humanity since the greeks and before", "readers understand it" (players here instead of reader), "it's classical for a reason", "There's nothing wrong with it", etc etc.

But hey, i never liked the simple, straighforward, boring, good vs evil stories since loots of years ago, so put me in the "against" camp. One of the reasons i was never hot for Bioware games.

Have you read Witcher books? if not, you should.You would LOVE them.

Murbella · 11-09-2009, 08:36 AM

Naeblis · 11-09-2009, 08:38 AM

I still haven't read them, but yeah, some people have recommend it before, so don't worry ;).

There are some exceptions to my tastes. I love LOTR, and Star Wars; but i think i am not the only one who likes these obscure titles :P.
But as i was reading the EG article, my mind came back one and another time to the last Bioware game i have played, Mass Effect. Which i personally subtitled it to "Sci-Fi: the RPG". The damn game crammed every sci-fi trope ever: from the soldier from a elite agency, to the almost forgotten coming-back evil menace, they myths and signals as warnings, the cyclic nature of the menace, the precursor race and techonology and it's paper in the story, the nonhuman/AI race as enemies, the situation of mankind as an early promise in the intergalactic status, the "all-life-consuming harvester overlords" tone of the enemy, the type of stories in the some of the big sidequets (the intergalactic underworld organization/mob and the insecty dangerous aliens used by a big corporation as research for weapons), etc.
Perhaps i just read too much sci-fi and that's why i didn't see anything original :P.

Paul_cze · 11-09-2009, 08:42 AM

Myself, I don't mind a cliche.I might even like it.But I definitely love it (and remember it), when I expect a cliche, and get something that completely turns it on its head.

Sol Invictus · 11-09-2009, 08:42 AM

There was nothing original about Mass Effect, not even in the characters, unlike Dragon Age, which has a good number of original characters, as well as subverted tropes.

I did however enjoy it, terribly clichéd though it was. Alastair Reynolds has written much, much better work.

MattKeil · 11-09-2009, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Grey

The only repetitive aspect of Bioware's games that kind of bugs me is the aforementioned "here are four areas you can choose to tackle in any order". It does feel very formulaic and I kind of rolled my eyes when I got to that part of Dragon Age. But it was interesting reading Bioware's reasoning for this structure.

So did I, but the tasks of each sometimes interleave in an interesting way, so in the end it doesn't really feel like you're repeating the same things you did in the other games.

Of the BioWare clichés in Dragon Age, the one I really could have done without is the Grey Wardens. I don't need to be a Jedi in every one of your games, guys.

Also, for all that Shale is not what I expected a golem to be like, he's exactly what I'd expect a "hey, people loved HK-47 so let's put a thinly disguised version of him in Dragon Age" character to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul cze

Have you read Witcher books? if not, you should.You would LOVE them.

I really do think playing and reading The Witcher has made me more aware of this (by their own admission) "easy" approach to fantasy storytelling. Everything about The Witcher's world felt fresh and interesting, despite being composed of all the usual fantasy elements.

Tim James · 11-09-2009, 09:31 AM

I take it that when Bioware does a Mass Effect and Dragon Age sequel, they will probably stick to these formulas? Does anyone see them drastically shaking things up?

As I said before, I'd rather them keep it safe than break something. It's kind of nice to have the heavy hitters from Bioware and Bethesda release a solid RPG once a year. What we really need are more mid-level RPG dev houses with better support and polish.

bloo · 11-09-2009, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naeblis

It's "campbellian", they are "powerful archetypes used by the great stories of humanity since the greeks and before", "readers understand it" (players here instead of reader), "it's classical for a reason", "There's nothing wrong with it", etc etc.

A couple of years ago at the Austin Game Conference, a presenter went through Campbell's hero cycle, and then used examples from Star Trek iirc to show how the best and most popular stories are when that cycle is broken.

I generally agree. Understand the hero cycle and then break it artfully.

(It might have been Evan Skolnick (http://kotaku.com/296679/game-writing-meets-star-trek) but there was another presentation in the same room that I might be confusing).

DanielElliot · 11-09-2009, 09:53 AM

If it's not too much trouble, could you put up a version without Dragon Age, for those of us who haven't started it or aren't too far in it yet?

Anaxagoras · 11-09-2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielElliot

If it's not too much trouble, could you put up a version without Dragon Age, for those of us who haven't started it or aren't too far in it yet?

His chart is so vague that it doesn't really spoil anything.

PeterGinsberg · 11-09-2009, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceolstan

Joseph Campbell, Hero with a Thousand Faces, has a lot to say about familiar elements from story to story,

I actually think it's a little embarrassing for someone (writer or otherwise) to be tossing around Campbell as their rationale, particularly in an effort to be condescending.

Campbell took some observations people has made before (his kind of universalism was pretty common once upon a time -- see: The Golden Bough) and did plenty of "stretching" himself to create his monomyths. He then put a big heaping pile of goofy self help on top of it all ("Follow your bliss!").

His understanding of cultural anthropology and the history of human belief may have been vast, but mostly he cherry picked whatever fit his pattern and ignored everything else. He takes a vast and diverse world of human belief and reduces and twists and smashes until it's vanilla and meaningless.

I don't make any claims one way or another about Bioware's stories, I've been pretty happy with them for what they are. But I don't think referencing Campbell's grand vague stories excuses cliche.

Sol Invictus · 11-09-2009, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaxagoras

His chart is so vague that it doesn't really spoil anything.

Yeah I kept it purposely vague. The Dragon Age stuff is ESPECIALLY vague because I don't want to spoil it for anyone. It's like a few minutes of the first hour of an 80 hour game.

Sol Invictus · 11-09-2009, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malphigian

I actually think it's a little embarrassing for someone (writer or otherwise) to be tossing around Campbell as their rationale, particularly in an effort to be condescending.

Campbell took some observations people has made before (his kind of universalism was pretty common once upon a time -- see: The Golden Bough) and did plenty of "stretching" himself to create his monomyths. He then put a big heaping pile of goofy self help on top of it all ("Follow your bliss!").

His understanding of cultural anthropology and the history of human belief may have been vast, but mostly he cherry picked whatever fit his pattern and ignored everything else. He takes a vast and diverse world of human belief and reduces and twists and smashes until it's vanilla and meaningless.

I don't make any claims one way or another about Bioware's stories, I've been pretty happy with them for what they are. But I don't think referencing Campbell's grand vague stories excuses cliche.

Reductivism at its worst. I hate Campbell.

Moore · 11-09-2009, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zylon

Fun times!

Same.

Murbella · 11-09-2009, 10:33 AM

This thread is so cliche.

extarbags · 11-09-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielElliot

If it's not too much trouble, could you put up a version without Dragon Age, for those of us who haven't started it or aren't too far in it yet?

The other columns are also spoilers for Dragon Age.

11-09-2009, 07:19 AM	#1
Sol Invictus Social Worker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,598	I made a fun little chart of BioWare RPG Cliches... and someone took it seriously I whipped up a fun little chart on the weekend after hours of playing Dragon Age with tropes/cliches used in Bioware's narrative structure and Bioware writer Patrick Weekes seems to have taken it very seriously despite the fact that I mentioned it was all supposed to be tongue-in-cheek and not as any kind of criticism towards their games (which I very much enjoy). It's all very amusing. http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/...G-Cliche-Chart Even EuroGamer has written about it here: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/bi...tory-structure

11-09-2009, 07:38 AM	#5
ceolstan Hustle Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 375	Joseph Campbell, Hero with a Thousand Faces, has a lot to say about familiar elements from story to story, but part of what makes for good writing is to make the story seem fresh regardless of how many times a trope has been used. Mary Sue characters are a good example of hack writing that takes the familiar and turns it into--behold!--more cliche! Last edited by ceolstan; 11-09-2009 at 07:44 AM..

11-09-2009, 07:33 AM	#3
Brian Rucker New Romantic Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: PSN: OddjobXL Posts: 8,470	I mentioned this in another thread but there's actually an NPC in the game who addresses this directly! You can ask Leliana to tell you stories. In the one there's a option to reply "I saw that coming!". She'll patiently explain to you why stories have familiar elements before continuing. It cracked me up. And then, of course, the story doesn't go where you thought it would. In fact, all the familiar tropes (as a gamer and reformed reader of fantasy fiction not as a Bioware fan - I'm not really or wasn't until now) seem turned around and spun into interesting new directions. There may be similiarities with Bioware's other games but I'm blissfully ignorant of most of them after finding KOTOR and Baldur's Gate not to my tastes.

11-09-2009, 07:41 AM	#7
Murbella Social Worker Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,996	As with a lot of cliche complaints, a lot of them were a pretty huge stretch that you wouldn't see as a cliche unless you were specifically looking to make a chart about it.

11-09-2009, 07:53 AM	#9
madkevin New Romantic Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kitchener-Waterloo Posts: 6,730	DA:O is like one part Return Of The King, one part Star Wars and one part Army Of Darkness, with just a smidgen of one specific Twilight Zone episode thrown in at one point for good measure. That's not a criticism, because I like all of those things. (More or less.) But at least DA:O has the good grace to at least be semi-aware of it's own references without going to the Fallout 2 tongue-in-cheek extremes.

11-09-2009, 07:57 AM	#10
Kevin Grey New Romantic Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 6,531	The only repetitive aspect of Bioware's games that kind of bugs me is the aforementioned "here are four areas you can choose to tackle in any order". It does feel very formulaic and I kind of rolled my eyes when I got to that part of Dragon Age. But it was interesting reading Bioware's reasoning for this structure. I did think for a time they were a little too proud of their Sixth Sense moment in KOTOR and were forever going to try and include a "super plot twist that you will never, ever see coming that will make you view the game in a whole new light" in every game because I found it too obvious in Jade Empire. However Mass Effect broke them of that so I'm not necessarily expecting it in DA (and please no one say if that's the case or not).

11-09-2009, 08:00 AM	#11
Brian Rucker New Romantic Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: PSN: OddjobXL Posts: 8,470	Bioware's done some clever things in how they put together the setting and play with expectations in the story if you know what you're looking for. Sure, there are familiar elements from all of those stories but, the truth is, those stories themselves are just retellings of older tales in different clothes. I probably don't get all the tropes myself because I don't read that much fantasy or play many fantasy RPGs anymore but the ones I get I really get and the historical elements they embellish and mutate are really cool.

11-09-2009, 08:01 AM	#12
Murbella Social Worker Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,996	Having multiple objectives you need to pursue to complete one overarching objective is more formulaic than an open world game like oblivion or fallout 3? What would be the definition of original, if you just had to go one place to get help from The Elite Knight Crusader Death Troops instead of three or five or whatever? That doesn't sound like a very well written story.

11-09-2009, 08:03 AM	#13
Naeblis Der Schulde Social Worker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,664	I lol'd since "Campbellian archetype" quote. No, really, every hack writer who writes tripe fantasy (or scifi, or superheroes comics) books with typical good vs evil tropes uses the same arguments (not saying it's the case here): It's "campbellian", they are "powerful archetypes used by the great stories of humanity since the greeks and before", "readers understand it" (players here instead of reader), "it's classical for a reason", "There's nothing wrong with it", etc etc. But hey, i never liked the simple, straighforward, boring, good vs evil stories since loots of years ago, so put me in the "against" camp. One of the reasons i was never hot for Bioware games.

11-09-2009, 08:11 AM	#14
malkav11 New Romantic Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,937	Not to spoil DA, but I thought a particular sequence very definitely fit the "a big battle changes everything" shared theme, not just loosely.

11-09-2009, 08:36 AM	#16
Murbella Social Worker Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,996

11-09-2009, 08:38 AM	#17
Naeblis Der Schulde Social Worker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,664	I still haven't read them, but yeah, some people have recommend it before, so don't worry ;). There are some exceptions to my tastes. I love LOTR, and Star Wars; but i think i am not the only one who likes these obscure titles :P. But as i was reading the EG article, my mind came back one and another time to the last Bioware game i have played, Mass Effect. Which i personally subtitled it to "Sci-Fi: the RPG". The damn game crammed every sci-fi trope ever: from the soldier from a elite agency, to the almost forgotten coming-back evil menace, they myths and signals as warnings, the cyclic nature of the menace, the precursor race and techonology and it's paper in the story, the nonhuman/AI race as enemies, the situation of mankind as an early promise in the intergalactic status, the "all-life-consuming harvester overlords" tone of the enemy, the type of stories in the some of the big sidequets (the intergalactic underworld organization/mob and the insecty dangerous aliens used by a big corporation as research for weapons), etc. Perhaps i just read too much sci-fi and that's why i didn't see anything original :P.

11-09-2009, 08:42 AM	#18
Paul_cze Neo Acoustic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Teplice, Czech Republic Posts: 1,955	Myself, I don't mind a cliche.I might even like it.But I definitely love it (and remember it), when I expect a cliche, and get something that completely turns it on its head.

11-09-2009, 09:31 AM	#21
Tim James New Romantic Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9,760	I take it that when Bioware does a Mass Effect and Dragon Age sequel, they will probably stick to these formulas? Does anyone see them drastically shaking things up? As I said before, I'd rather them keep it safe than break something. It's kind of nice to have the heavy hitters from Bioware and Bethesda release a solid RPG once a year. What we really need are more mid-level RPG dev houses with better support and polish.

11-09-2009, 09:53 AM	#23
DanielElliot Social Worker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 3,601	If it's not too much trouble, could you put up a version without Dragon Age, for those of us who haven't started it or aren't too far in it yet?

11-09-2009, 10:33 AM	#29
Murbella Social Worker Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,996	This thread is so cliche.

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I made a fun little chart of BioWare RPG Cliches... and someone took it seriously