60+ hours work week still the industry norm?

[Hans Lauring]

http://playthisthing.com/mothers-don...ame-developers

I don't really know how I feel. Looking at posts from EpicBoy it seems like they get great monetary compensation, but if it's the norm, then it's not a choice. Ie you can't pick another developer to work for that doesn't demand those hours.

I like my 38 hours work week and 6-7 weeks of vacation to be with my family - also I'm not a proper games journalist since I harbor no dreams of going into development.

[Warpstorm]

Originally Posted by Hanzii

I like my 38 hours work week and 6-7 weeks of vacation to be with my family

This ^^^ is not the norm in the industry.

[Tyjenks]

6-7 weeks vacation....that is like some fairytale land. ;)

[noun]

Originally Posted by Warpstorm

This ^^^ is not the norm in the industry.

Or any industry.

[The Bird Flu]

After reading articles like this and talking with programmer friends, I'm glad I went right back to school after getting my CS degree.

Nursing allows me to work 36 hours a week at a decent wage and get 3-4 weeks paid vacation a year (if I save personal time off) which gives me ample time to do whatever the hell I want. Music, reading, gaming... etc. Plus, it's very satisfying.

Praise to those that do develop games though!

[Johan A]

Sounds like some people are still stupid enough to think that the humans can produce more just because you force them to work for more hours.

A well-rested and happy programmer is so far more productive than an over-worked and tired one.

[Xemu]

Depends a lot on the studio, and where it is on the ship cycle. The last several months of Halo Wars was easily 60-70 hr weeks for almost everyone. Things can get much worse than that, though not in any sustainable way ... System Shock 1 was sleep-deprivation bad crunch for an extended period, as I recall.

I'd say my average non-crunch period work weeks are probably about 50 hrs, sometimes even a lot closer to the mythical 40. I've worked for good companies though, some are chronic crunchers which can be much more brutal.

When you're having fun with it you don't notice the hours nearly as much however. I wind up working long hours a lot simply because I'm in the zone and enjoying what I'm doing, or going in on a weekend because I'm excited to. Frankly, if I wasn't making games professionally I'd just be finding time to do it at home after my regular job as a DB programmer or accountant or store clerk or whatever.

[Dravalen]

Epic pays waaay more than the average industry studio, although there's been a fair amount of shit going on around the private boards due to Capp's comments.

Once I ship my current title I'm probably on my way out of this industry. I'm taking a 40% pay cut to work where I do. In addition we are on "manditory" 10 hour work days + saturday at a minimum for the next few months. This does not count the couple ~100 hour weeks I worked for a couple milestones and a pretty consistent 70 hours otherwise the months before that.

My previous job was the same, 70-80 hour week crunch for months, I went back to school rather than continue on at that company and thought that this time it would be different, guess I was wrong.

It's really a bloody shame because it's a damn fun industry(when you're not crunching) and I really enjoy the job its self and working with my coworkers. Priorities change as you get older however, if I want to afford a house and not live at work I don't see that happening in the game industry any time soon.

[Reldan]

I'm thankful I went into business software development instead of game development based on everything I've heard over the last few years.

I can work 40-45 hours a week probably 7-8 months out of the year, and 45-60 hours the rest of the time (with paid overtime), and get 4 weeks of vacation of year. I guess it all depends on how much you really like to make games.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Johan A

Sounds like some people are still stupid enough to think that the humans can produce more just because you force them to work for more hours.

A well-rested and happy programmer is so far more productive than an over-worked and tired one.

This man speaks truth.

[WarrenM]

Looking at posts from EpicBoy it seems like they get great monetary compensation, but if it's the norm, then it's not a choice.

It's not the norm. I generally work 40-45 hours a week and work a little on the weekends for the better part of the year. At the end of a project, I put in long weeks for a few months to get the game out the door - aka crunch.

However, we are well compensated for this but Epic is not the industry norm. Many game companies promise bonuses and compensation but deliver layoffs instead.

[WarrenM]

Sounds like some people are still stupid enough to think that the humans can produce more just because you force them to work for more hours.

A well-rested and happy programmer is so far more productive than an over-worked and tired one.

It IS effective in short bursts however. Mini-crunches to hit internal deadlines generally result in a better product at the end of the day. You can crunch for a few weeks but going beyond that is dumb. That's when you hit diminishing returns.

[Macguffin]

Not everywhere is like that, but I think that way too many places are.

This is somewhat tangential to the thread, but recently my Boston buddy Darius Kazemi started an early run for next year's IGDA board elections. He put up a blog where he's getting into his positions and generally stirring things up a bit. He's also doing a petition for some more transparency into board activities, like finding Jason Della Rocca's replacement.

I'd encourage IGDA members that want the org to be more effective to check it out.

[Dave Weinstein]

Sprints can be effective, but only for very short periods of time, and only with equivalent time off afterwards.

Crunch is pretty much always counterproductive, and it goes counterproductive *quickly*.

[cliffski]

It's better in indie land. We work when we want to (although I probably work more than 45 hours a week), and we have no crunch because we ship when it's done.

[Charles]

We do almost no crunch at Ubi Montreal, and none of it is forced. They may ask for extra, but there's no downside to saying no.

edit: After reading that article, I think I'll let my membership lapse until they boot the guy.

[Charles]

Oh, and something to add to the thread: http://www.igda.org/articles/erobinson_crunch.php

[Charles]

You know, just some personal notes on my experience with crunch. I think a big part of the problem is that employees accept it. Nowadays, I am upfront when it comes to jobs: I will not work more than an 8 hour work day except for a few weeks maximum leading up to a major milestone, and even then, no more than twice in a year. People need to push back. They hired you, they are paying you. Why? Because you can do something they value. So don't take shit. Work 8 hours, and tell people when your workload is unreasonable.

New people in the industry are much better with this. A lot of the green people I work with nowadays are interested in working hard 8 hours a day, not fucking around, and they are interested in going home at a reasonable time, not killing themselves.

One day when people all adopt these stances, someone pushing for more than a 40 hour work week will be laughed at. If you read my previous link, this is a solved problem. There's empirical evidence from a century ago proving it.

The problem with the game industry is that it was founded on the backs of dropouts and people who didn't want a real job. Their ignorance is the basis of all the problems we live with nowadays.

[cliffski]

thats very very true. But my experience is that young kids joining the industry still see working 12 hour days as some romantic/macho thing to be encouraged.
Maybe part of it is 95% of the workforce being men. Are women as keen on crunch as the guys?

[Kraaze]

Originally Posted by Johan A

A well-rested and happy programmer is so far more productive than an over-worked and tired one.

Half right. Well rested employees are more productive, but if I recall my organizational behavior classes correctly there is no correlation between happiness and productivity. Negative emotions detract from productivity but positive ones don't add to it. People can be equally productive on a meh day and on the happiest day of their life.

[cliffski]

happy employees stay
unhappy employees leave
It takes years and costs a fortune to teach new guys how to do the old guys job.
Thats one (of many) reasons to keep the staff happy.

[JoshV]

This is not the norm. Are there companies that do extended crunches, yes. But alot of the big companies now have to keep track of hourly work pay overtime. Both Actiblizzard and EA are like this now, two of the biggest companies out there. Personal experience has been moderate crunches now and then, a lot of it is what you're willing to put up with. Mandatory ten hour days are a thing of the past, studios are very afraid to use the word mandatory here in california, or they would find themselves getting sued very quickly.

[Jon Rowe]

Originally Posted by Reldan

I'm thankful I went into business software development instead of game development based on everything I've heard over the last few years.

I can work 40-45 hours a week probably 7-8 months out of the year, and 45-60 hours the rest of the time (with paid overtime), and get 4 weeks of vacation of year. I guess it all depends on how much you really like to make games.

I would have to agree 40-45 where I work too, unless it is crunch time.. then a bit busier, but nothing crazy like 70 hrs a week.

[Dan Lawrence]

Working in the UK industry I'd say my experience, and that of the people I've spoken too, has been that 60+ working weeks are the norm whenever anything doesn't go perfectly to plan. I know of several stories of the 60+ weeks going on for months and months. I'd say there is definitely a macho culture contributing to this occuring, testosterone pumped programmers daring each other to sleep less and code more. For the IDGA president to be saying this is a good thing? The man has lost all credibility in my eyes. How is the industry supposed to keep talented people? How is it supposed to support people with families? How is it supposed to support peple who aren't a little unhinged?

The bitterness the 60 hour week swiftly engenders in the workforce can turn office life into a nightmare for people working there, a nightmare they bring home with them when they leave the office.

[Desslock]

Originally Posted by Hanzii

I like my 38 hours work week and 6-7 weeks of vacation to be with my family.

That sounds like what I dream about for retirement.

[WarrenM]

How is the industry supposed to keep talented people? How is it supposed to support people with families? How is it supposed to support peple who aren't a little unhinged?

It's changing, slowly. The demographics in the industry are skewing more and more towards guys with wives and kids. Guys who want to go home at 5pm and spend time with those wives and kids. It's not all high school drop outs who love computers anymore and will become less so over time. Even the young kids I work with tend to have priorities these days outside of work. They want to go clubbing, not sit at their desks all night.

These older developers tend to advise the younger hires to take a healthier outlook on life. It's no longer looked upon as cool to stay up all night working on stuff "just because". It's now looked upon as odd and a little sad.

[alexlitel]

On a slightly related note, in California, as per AB 10, a computer professional is exempt from having to be paid overtime if they: are paid on a salary basis; earn not less than $75,000 per year; are employed full time; are paid at least once per month; and in an amount not less than $6,250 per month.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by cliffski

thats very very true. But my experience is that young kids joining the industry still see working 12 hour days as some romantic/macho thing to be encouraged.
Maybe part of it is 95% of the workforce being men. Are women as keen on crunch as the guys?

This has not been my experience. The pressure is still from the top. Maybe it's different here in Montreal, people do take their personal time far more seriously than other places. You still get kids who want to prove themselves, but I doubt that's uncommon in general. Who doesn't have an urge to prove themselves straight out of the gate?

But as people like me move up, and train new people, this should become less. I am already telling the people below me: Prove yourself by using your brain, not your time. Find clever ways to deliver goals, don't try and do it by killing yourself. And there are more and more people like me.

But it really takes people willing to tell the people above them to go suck it. They may not like it, but I continually deliver, so how do you argue with results?

[cesare]

Originally Posted by EpicBoy

It's changing, slowly. The demographics in the industry are skewing more and more towards guys with wives and kids. Guys who want to go home at 5pm.

5pm? Luxury.

Seriously tho, like people said it's nowhere near the norm, in the US at least (I've heard nightmare stories about the UK). At three studios over the past 8 or so years I've averaged 9 months regular hours to 3 months crunch. The thing is, crunch no longer just occurs at the end of the project, it now happens in the 3 weeks before you release a demo, the 3 weeks before an important milestone, the 3 weeks before a prototype that needs to be presented to corporate, etc.

As some people have pointed out, crunch isn't all bad. The game industry is chaotic and complicated, things almost never work out as planned. When that's the fault of production and scheduling, then yeah, there's issues. When a studio is working a game that's completely doomed and everyone is forced into mandatory crunch to try and "save" it, then yeah, that borders on the criminal.

But when a studio asks that everyone puts in extra effort for a couple of weeks to really polish the hell out of something that's going to be presented to the public, that's not a bad thing. We all want to produce the best shit we can. And I disagree about companies trending older these days, I'm seeing the exact opposite. I'm seeing (and again, ymmv) a trend away from people who are more interested in clocking out at 5 to go see their wife/kids, and towards hungry-ass passionate lifers who eat-breathe-live-sleep games. And that's not a bad thing either. Spending two years of your early 20s working your ass off on a game that your 30-something lead or project manager doesn't really give a shit about is devastating and soul-crushing. Working with hungry-ass kids who are constantly trying to one-up each other in a friendly rivalry way is freakin awesome. Everyone just keeps trying to get better and better at what they do.

As an aside to this rambling, people also need to take into account how flexible most studios are with their hours. At most studios, it's ok to waltz in at 10 in the morning and then take an hour and half lunch, as long as you put in the 8 standard hours. So yeah, you might have to do 12-hour days and weekends here and there, and yeah, that should probably be concretely compensated. But honestly I've never another job where I could basically show up whenever I wanted and not have some management douchebag get all pissed about it.

[cesare]

Originally Posted by Charles

The problem with the game industry is that it was founded on the backs of dropouts and people who didn't want a real job. Their ignorance is the basis of all the problems we live with nowadays.

Lol. I didn't see this before I posted my response, but yeah, you might be onto something there. "Dude, this is SO MUCH BETTER than delivering pizzas."

Still, I think pushing hard and caring about something enough to put extra effort in is reasonable in any industry. Of course, I'm saying all this as someone who probably won't have to seriously crunch again til 2010. If we were having this conversation a couple of years ago, I'd probably be clamoring for blood.