Battlestar Galactica: Final Season

[Athryn]

Originally Posted by CEBlackwell

This might be a bigger revelation than the final Cylon!

So will the rest of the season be the "tension" of finding out who is the final Cylon (Ellen or Starbuck) and where they'll settle down (a class F galaxy or a class G galaxy)? Because I'm not sure that's enough tension for 12 more episodes...

The final Cylon is Ellen.

[Alan Dunkin]

Originally Posted by CEBlackwell

This might be a bigger revelation than the final Cylon!

So will the rest of the season be the "tension" of finding out who is the final Cylon (Ellen or Starbuck) and where they'll settle down (a class F galaxy or a class G galaxy)? Because I'm not sure that's enough tension for 12 more episodes...

Plus it's not a "class F galaxy or a class G galaxy" but a particular nearby star type, generally yellow or white (the class type is an astronomical classification based on color, among other things) that is mostly stable and could have planets that can be sustained by humans.

Though I gotta think that the 13th colony would have had the same idea and would have colonized anything nearby when they left Earth (hence the other 12 colonies, which means nothing was nearby?) or they wanted to get as far away as possible.

--- Alan

[Vic Davis]

Oh, Be, A, Fine, Girl, Kiss, Me

[Scrax]

Originally Posted by Vic Davis

Oh, Be, A, Fine, Girl, Kiss, Me

Obag KM to you too!

[CEBlackwell]

Originally Posted by Athryn

The final Cylon is Ellen.

I think I'm not allowing myself to admit this because of its high anticlimax levels. It's like an O-class anticlimax.

I did forget about the remaining bad guy Cylons. Maybe some space battles will cheer me up. They usually do.

[z0diac]

Originally Posted by quatoria

Man, the KFC broadcasts reached the level of comical. "Kill me!" "Frak you, kill yourself!" "Okay, I will!" "NEW KFC HONEY BBQ WINGS! THEY'RE A FLAVOR BLITZKRIEG!"

This one is pretty good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW2_2ihIuzI

[Trey]

Ron Moore and David Weddle talk about the last episodes.

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune....alla-dee-.html

One place my mind instantly went, on a fan-trivia level, was to that opera house vision that D’Anna has. She says to one of the Final Five, something like, “I’m sorry, I had no idea.” Did she say that to Ellen?

I think the intention of that -- we had a conversation about that in the writers room -- [once it had been decided that Ellen was a Cylon] the intention was that [the one D’Anna spoke to] was Ellen. When we wrote the line, we didn’t have a clear intention, but later, when we’d decided [on all the Cylons], I think the feeling was, that was Ellen.

So yeah basically they just write shit and then decide what it means later (or never).

[Vic Davis]

"I'm sorry, I had no idea.....that we ripped out YOUR eye."

OR

"I'm sorry, I had no idea....that the guy who's eye we ripped out... that guy standing over there....would poison you....who were you exactly anyway...didn't I see you slinking out of Cavil's trailer?"

Am I missing something here? How does it seem like Helen was a natural for the object of that line? Make it up as you go along and then you're not even sure what you made up. Geez.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Trey

So yeah basically they just write shit and then decide what it means later (or never).

I'm shocked---shocked!---that they didn't have five years worth of episodes planned all in advance!

What is with fans of sci-fi, who pick apart the things they supposedly dig in such excruciating levels of detail that they drain all of the fun out of them? What would actually hold up to this level of scrutiny? Is that the enjoyment, finding every little inconsistency so you can be the guy that says, "Hah! See! Hackery! Worst. Show. Ever!"?

I mean, it's cool if people don't like the show anymore, but why continue watching if the creator's desire to change character motivations or have some internal inconsistencies is such a deal-breaker? I dig the show because I find its exploration of "big themes" interesting; I don't really get bogged down in the minutia because, well, it's minutia for a reason. It's kind of irrelevant.

[Quitch]

The show was originally sold on the Cylons having a plan. To complain later that people are examining your future proofing is silly, BSG is just internally inconsistent. Compared even to other sci-fi series I'd say it fares poorly.

[Reldan]

Originally Posted by steve

I'm shocked---shocked!---that they didn't have five years worth of episodes planned all in advance!

What is with fans of sci-fi, who pick apart the things they supposedly dig in such excruciating levels of detail that they drain all of the fun out of them? What would actually hold up to this level of scrutiny? Is that the enjoyment, finding every little inconsistency so you can be the guy that says, "Hah! See! Hackery! Worst. Show. Ever!"?

I mean, it's cool if people don't like the show anymore, but why continue watching if the creator's desire to change character motivations or have some internal inconsistencies is such a deal-breaker? I dig the show because I find its exploration of "big themes" interesting; I don't really get bogged down in the minutia because, well, it's minutia for a reason. It's kind of irrelevant.

A story operating without restrictions contains no suspense, and loses the capability to provide any sort of meaningful surprise. Without suspense there is no drama.

But you are right - the only real solution is simply to stop watching. It's like complaining that the food at your local all-you-cat-eat buffet sucks and then going back for more each week.

I'd be skeptical of the promise that questions will be answered by the end of the series. Do you honestly believe that even the writers themselves currently have the answers to the pressing questions? They probably don't, and will simply make more shit up as necessary. A lot of their ideas are remarkably stupid and inconsistent anyways - you'd be better off just inventing your own answers, as they're likely to make more sense.

[Zylon]

The problem isn't even that the writers are making things up as they go along... writers of every long-running series do that to some degree. The problem is that they're doing such an awful job of it. If they were doing a good job, we wouldn't even know.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Quitch

The show was originally sold on the Cylons having a plan. To complain later that people are examining your future proofing is silly, BSG is just internally inconsistent. Compared even to other sci-fi series I'd say it fares poorly.

What sci-fi shows remained perfectly internally consistent over multiple years/seasons? (Honest question, as I normally don't watch 'em.)

This is what it seems like people are saying: If their original plan turned out to be terrible, or if the actors chosen for the roles turned out to be wrong or others turned out to be better or more interesting, or if the show's creators just changed their mind, they should have stuck to their original plan? If that's the case, is the quality of a show only measured by its ability to remain internally consistent or to stick to a plan over X years of production?

I'd really be curious what shows ever did this. Other long-form shows that I've dug---the Sopranos, The Shield, The Wire---could be picked apart, but for whatever reason people don't hold them to this sort of standard. For all I know, David Chase may have sat down on day 1 and envisioned a final episode where Tony Soprano eats dinner with his family while Journey plays on the soundtrack, but somehow I doubt it. I'm guessing that each year, he sat down with other writers (or had his own internal conversations) and brainstormed new ideas for each character and plotlines for each season. And they had to occasionally fudge some things because, well, he's the creator and he can do that, and he felt that the story he was telling moving forward was more important than maintaining every single bit of internal consistency from seasons past.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Zylon

The problem isn't even that the writers are making things up as they go along... writers of every long-running series do that to some degree. The problem is that they're doing such an awful job of it. If they were doing a good job, we wouldn't even know.

Who's this "we" you keep talking about? Are people unaware of the level of critical acclaim BSG has maintained outside of nerd circles? Here's one write-up of the last episode, for example.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Reldan

A story operating without restrictions contains no suspense, and loses the capability to provide any sort of meaningful surprise. Without suspense there is no drama.

I'm not totally sure what you're getting at here. A character changing over time, or even behaving erratically, doesn't mean they're operating without restrictions or that their can't be suspense.

I'd be skeptical of the promise that questions will be answered by the end of the series. Do you honestly believe that even the writers themselves currently have the answers to the pressing questions? They probably don't, and will simply make more shit up as necessary.

Personally, I don't need every question answered because I'm enjoying the ride and don't think everything needs to be wrapped up neat and tidy.

For example, I liked the ending for The Sopranos, which pretty much left everything dangling, and I loved the ending for The Shield, which did wrap things up but also left Vic's ultimate fate up to the viewer.

And I'd assumed they would need to "make up more shit" at the end of the show because as far as I know, BSG isn't a fact-based show.

[Zylon]

Originally Posted by steve

What sci-fi shows remained perfectly internally consistent over multiple years/seasons? (Honest question, as I normally don't watch 'em.)

For the love of god steve, for the first three seasons they started every single episode by blasting "THEY HAVE A PLAN" onto the screen. This is throwing down the continuity gauntlet in the most blatant fashion possible. And as it turns out, this was a lie. The writers had no plan at all in mind, ever. And when this became uncomfortably obvious to even the most casual viewer, they dropped that line from the opening and pretended it never existed.

And they do this sort of thing, on smaller scales, constantly.

[Quitch]

Originally Posted by steve

What sci-fi shows remained perfectly internally consistent over multiple years/seasons? (Honest question, as I normally don't watch 'em.)

Perfectly? None, but shows like Babylon 5 handled it much better, to the extent that the writer had backup plans in case actors had to drop out unexpectedly.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Quitch

Perfectly? None, but shows like Babylon 5 handled it much better, to the extent that the writer had backup plans in case actors had to drop out unexpectedly.

Fair enough. But you said, "Compared even to other sci-fi series I'd say it fares poorly." So, is it "Compared to Babylon 5, it fares poorly?" For this to be some big huge deal, I'd expect there to be more examples of shows that did this the "right" way, and had the level of acclaim of a BSG or Babylon 5. Because I'm guessing that adherence to continuity is easy if your show is relatively simple and straightforward, or has no change over time.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Zylon

For the love of god steve, for the first three seasons they started every single episode by blasting "THEY HAVE A PLAN" onto the screen. This is throwing down the continuity gauntlet in the most blatant fashion possible. And as it turns out, this was a lie. The writers had no plan at all in mind, ever. And when this became uncomfortably obvious to even the most casual viewer, they dropped that line from the opening and pretended it never existed.

Your beef is with the opening credits?

I'm pretty sure that line is referencing the Cylons, not the show's creators. The writers may have had a plan if the show had been canceled after the pilot, and then another after 1-season, and another after the second, etc. I'm guessing the "plan" has changed every year, since the show had no finite ending until recently. Such is the nature of working in TV.

[Zylon]

[Eric T Cheng]

An ex-coworker and her husband are big fans of Babylon 5 and they HATED the Battlestar Galactica mini-series when I let them borrow my copy. They didn't like the characters or the acting.

I wish the writers had planned for the four season run instead of making shit as they went along. It's why I got tired of series like Lost and Heroes.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Zylon

[Zylon]

Originally Posted by steve

Ummm... I know you are but what am I?

[Ergo]

A nitpicky ragenerd? I kid, but I will say I stand firmly on Steve's side over this whole issue. BSG is a series I've enjoyed since its inception and still enjoy today.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Quitch

Perfectly? None, but shows like Babylon 5 handled it much better, to the extent that the writer had backup plans in case actors had to drop out unexpectedly.

I was curious about this, so I went off to Wikipedia and read up a bit on B5. I wonder whether people would have these kinds of negative reactions if Ronald Moore had said similar things in interviews that the B5 creator said about having everything planned at the start. Instead, he's been pretty honest about changing his mind or not necessarily having everything planned out. I'm not sure why that's a negative.

The "they're making shit up" kinds of comments just mystify me, because my initial response is, "Well, duh. Of course they are. It's fiction." When I write my own fiction, I don't always have it mapped out in my head or on paper. I sort of start blathering away and see where I end up, and sometimes it's a place I hadn't intended/planned for at the start. With something that's unpublished, I can do a rewrite; if I was doing a TV show, I'd have to make the choice to throw out my new material or just go with what I think makes the most narrative sense. I'd personally go with the latter option, because strict adherence to continuity for the sake of continuity is a bad tradeoff.

As I'm now working on the story for a big project, one that's not just for my own amusement, I'm forcing myself to work in a more structured and planned out way. I have full character bios, which I've never done before, and various background/backstory material that will never appear in the final product. So I'm trying to maintain continuity and consistency, but I'll still break it if I think the story is more important.

Anyway, I think it's perfectly valid for anyone to say they don't like the direction the show has gone in, or that you think it's gone off the rails for various reasons. I still can't figure out why people feel a compulsion to watch the show and then post repeated messages about how much it sucks, but hey, it's the Internet. It's so much cooler to hate things.

[Vic Davis]

Hey I enjoy it as well. And I watch it because frankly there is nothing else out there for a scif-fi fan. But was it really asking too much that the writers sat down after the pilot was a success and said ok here is the general story arc and this is what's generally going to happen to the main characters. This is the Cylon's plan. This is the hidden back story and this is what they find when they get to earth. This is what we keep from the original show. The truth about the 12 models is this and the final 5 are ....

What I got from the interviews and the 10 things you need to know about BSG show was the impression that they thought they were sort of cool for thinking things up on the run often after a tequila night in Tijuana. They loved it because they could work their current affairs messages into the show and "run" with an idea for a character to create "great drama." Because it was all about the characters and not the space explosions.

The tragedy of BSG is the thought of what could have been if the writers hadn't been such fly by the pants self styled auteurs and more meticulous craftsmen like workmen instead. Sorry if that sounds harsh and yes I've no talent do it myself but that's the way I see it.

[Zylon]

Originally Posted by Ergo

A nitpicky ragenerd? I kid, but I will say I stand firmly on Steve's side over this whole issue.

Why would you side with someone who's descended into trolling this thread by being intentionally dense? "Lol wut 'They have a plan' means the Cylons not the writers! Durr dee durr hurr hurr..."

Come on now, this isn't complicated. The only reason for the whole "They Have a Plan" thing was to hook viewers with the promise of an interesting long-term plot. To find out that this long-term plot does not and *never* existed is of course going to piss some people off.

If you don't want to draw an audience that cares about continuity and consistency, don't do a science fiction show.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Vic Davis

The tragedy of BSG is the thought of what could have been if the writers hadn't been such fly by the pants self styled auteurs and more meticulous craftsmen like workmen instead. Sorry if that sounds harsh and yes I've no talent do it myself but that's the way I see it.

That's all fair, but you could make the opposite argument that we may have missed out on some "great drama" and characters had they adhered to a strict story arc. Maybe you can have both, but given the nature of TV---maybe the B5 creator had a contract for multiple years, giving him the ability to plan ahead---I'm guessing it's a challenge. BSG has been nearly canceled a couple of times, which would've interrupted any long-term planning anyway.

And maybe your message shows the break between sci-fi fans and fans of regular dramas. BSG is one of the only sci-fi shows that really crossed over to non-fans, and it seems like its remaining proponents are not as hardcore into sci-fi as its detractors. I dunno.

[Athryn]

Originally Posted by Zylon

Why would you side with someone who's descended into trolling this thread by being intentionally dense? "Lol wut 'They have a plan' means the Cylons not the writers! Durr dee durr hurr hurr..."

Come on now, this isn't complicated. The only reason for the whole "They Have a Plan" thing was to hook viewers with the promise of an interesting long-term plot. To find out that this long-term plot does not and *never* existed is of course going to piss some people off.

If you don't want to draw an audience that cares about continuity and consistency, don't do a science fiction show.

He's not trolling, he's stating a point of view that a lot of us out there share.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Zylon

Why would you side with someone who's descended into trolling this thread by being intentionally dense? "Lol wut 'They have a plan' means the Cylons not the writers! Durr dee durr hurr hurr..."

I wasn't trolling. I'm trying to figure out why it matters whether or not Ronald Moore had this all planned at the start.

To find out that this long-term plot does not and *never* existed is of course going to piss some people off.

Why? Isn't the result or resolution all that matters, or is adherence to some plan more important than the quality of said plan? What if the planned arc sucked? Would that somehow be better than one where they did it on-the-fly but produced a really satisfying ending? Would you suddenly like BSG today if this is exactly how they envisioned the last few episodes on the first day of shooting?