Wow, is EQII in trouble?

[Flowers]

A letter from the producers...

A combination of several servers to remedy a feeling of underpopulation is totally different than combining servers due to underpopulation.

Some people who don't play EQ2 will have bad things to say about this move. Yes, this is a controversial decision, but our primary concern has to be making sure that the worlds are all healthy, fun places to play for the people who enjoy playing EQ2.

Tricky!

Original, full text can be found here.

[Cold Blooded]

Sign of player population not meeting projected demand, sure, but not necessarily crisis situation. Constant demand for more content for players of games like this, SOE obligingly delivered. Also, difficult to keep all players evenly distributed across all areas; after few months, most players are high level and only stay in toughest places.

Apparently, game is also changing character advancement system.

[Chris Woods]

That is some hardcore spin.

Chris Woods

[stusser]

I haven't played it, but as I understand it EQ2 is a heavily instanced game. Your home is instanced, tradeskills are all in little instances, all dungeons are instanced, most players level up in solo instanced dungeons, each quest can have its own individual instance, and so on. These things can lead to a feeling of isolation.

All that said, does anyone know anyone who plays EQ2? I sure don't.

[mouselock]

Originally Posted by stusser

I haven't played it, but as I understand it EQ2 is a heavily instanced game. Your home is instanced, tradeskills are all in little instances, all dungeons are instanced, most players level up in solo instanced dungeons, each quest can have its own individual instance, and so on. These things can lead to a feeling of isolation.

All that said, does anyone know anyone who plays EQ2? I sure don't.

I played for a while and would go back if I could justify paying for two MMOs at once (and if Sony hadn't screwed up SWG which I was using to help justify an all-access pass). The place is heavily instanced at all levels which seemed to spread people out. There are "common" instances and whatnot, but by the time you distribute 3000 or so people (the normal number for an MMO server) over the mentioned 600 zones.. well.. 50 people in Qeynos Hills would be pretty sparse IMO.

It really is a nice game. It's a shame that everyone I know, even those who are annoyed at the way Blizzard is running their business now, steadfastly refuse to try it due to the perceived fuck-overs Sony gave them when they played EQ1.

[Ryan A]

Originally Posted by mouselock

The place is heavily instanced at all levels which seemed to spread people out.

Though instances can be nice for cutting down on lag and griefing and whatnot, doesn't it kind of take the "M" out of MMORPG?

[Talisker]

Originally Posted by mouselock

It really is a nice game. It's a shame that everyone I know, even those who are annoyed at the way Blizzard is running their business now, steadfastly refuse to try it due to the perceived fuck-overs Sony gave them when they played EQ1.

I've been poking around with the Trial of the Isle demo thingy for a couple days; it's definitely an interesting game. On the off chance I decide to take (another) WoW break, which servers are people 'round here playing on?

[SlyFrog]

Originally Posted by stusser

All that said, does anyone know anyone who plays EQ2? I sure don't.

I did. It's a good game. I'd say that almost all of its parts are better than WoW. However, I've gone back to WoW, because of the larger playerbase (ironic, yes) and because you can actually do something under level 60 in a couple of hours.

I've started playing WoW/EQ2 with my wife. We started with EQ2, but quickly discovered that though we like the game, you just can't seem to get much done as a duo. It felt like we were slaughtering random crap (deer, gnolls, etc.) with no effort (not good, as it is boring), or getting absolutely pummelled by things that were interesting. We were both happy to group with larger parties to get the cool things done, but the player base seemed much more dedicated than we were, and we just didn't have the four-five hour blocks that a lot of the EQ2 playerbase seemed willing to give night in and night out to play a game.

Pity too, because we finally latched on to a nice guild, good people, no complaints. As they say in the movies, it wasn't them, it was us.

WoW, however, feels more alive, just because of the larger body of people playing. We also feel like we are able to progress as a duo and do interesting things. Sure, you have to kill 20 rabid thistle foozles too often, but you also actually get to go after named stuff, get cool loot, etc., without being part of a 5 hour 5 man group. Of course, you can also be part of a 2-3 hour five man instance if you want (which we have from time to time). I just wish the idiot playerbase would start using the meeting stones instead of advertising in a chat channel from some random city, but god forbid you try anything new that didn't exist in EQ1.

Now my only concern is that I'm in a guild that clearly (in my mind) has tension between wanting to say it's family/casual friendly, but also wanting to raid. You can almost feel the popping sounds as new policies closing entry to character types we "have too many of," mandating teamspeak, CTRaid, etc. are made, while still trying to let people play how they want to with some degree of flexibility. The biggest source of humor/concern is the continuing slide toward playing toward participating in raids. It's not mandatory to raid, but it is a raiding guild. It's still a mostly casual friendly guild, but you are strongly discouraged from playing alts unless you have a level 60. Etc. Nothing particularly wrong, just clear tension.

Not sure why I wrote all this under this topic, but it's there so I'm not erasing it. Anywho, yes, EQ2 did seem deserted, at least compared to WoW.

[mouselock]

Originally Posted by Ryan A

Though instances can be nice for cutting down on lag and griefing and whatnot, doesn't it kind of take the "M" out of MMORPG?

They're not all instances as in WoW, where you and only you get in. But for example if you leave your main city, you go to one of a few instances of the nearby landscape. Similarly if you go to one of the sewers or dungeons, you do the same. In some cases I believe your group/raid gets their very own instance too. It's akin to the multiple main cities in Guild Wars, and I think it probably exists for performance reasons. It does tend to make places feel more barren though.

[VegasRobb]

I still play.

[Gordon Cameron]

I just wish the idiot playerbase would start using the meeting stones instead of advertising in a chat channel from some random city

I always used LFG chat for pickup groups. I don't see how that makes me an idiot, especially since there is a dedicated channel for it that you can turn off. Maybe meeting stones would work if everyone actually used them, but you still would have people suddenly appearing in your party whom you haven't chatted with at all to get a sense of whether you want them (or they want you). Awkwardness could ensue.

I think there is nothing wrong with a LFG chat system for pickup groups. If it ain't broke...

[SlyFrog]

Originally Posted by Gordon Cameron

I always used LFG chat for pickup groups. I don't see how that makes me an idiot, especially since there is a dedicated channel for it that you can turn off. Maybe meeting stones would work if everyone actually used them, but you still would have people suddenly appearing in your party whom you haven't chatted with at all to get a sense of whether you want them (or they want you). Awkwardness could ensue.

I think there is nothing wrong with a LFG chat system for pickup groups. If it ain't broke...

Yes, you are right, idiot is over the top and sensationalist. Sorry. But I really do not get why people do not use the meeting stones, and it frustrates me because I think they have a lot better functionality than the LFG. I have heard a lot of people say, "They suck," but have never once received a halfway convincing explanation of why. Other than that no one uses them, which of course is fairly ironic. I don't use them because no one ever uses them. Riiigghhhht.

The meeting stones group you no matter where you are. They attempt to group you in an appropriate mix (e.g. they wait awhile to try to get a few DPS, a few tanks, a few healers, etc.), but will then give in and broaden the search. Rather than spamming for four hours looking for a priest because a druid is not good enough.

More importantly, the meeting stones, to my knowledge, allow you to click on them once and then go adventure until a group is found. They immediately teleport you to the site, rather than having to travel there for 15 minutes after you find your group. The meeting stones offer connectivity everywhere, as opposed to the city that you happen to be in (meaning, if I am correct, that if I want to do Maradon, I have to guess which city will have players advertising for it, and then stand around if I'm using the LFG method). The meeting stones allow you to do an instance by simply checking in at any inn. The meeting stones allow me to be wandering around the Wetlands or Searing Gorge while looking for a group, rather than sitting in Ironforge spamming a channel for an hour and effectively losing an hour's worth of playtime.

I have found it incredibly rare that people using the LFG channel really "scope" people out. Instead, they are generally just looking for a general class type (dps, healer, tank). The meeting stones could do this just as well in my opinion. I don't think the LFG system is broken, but of course I also don't think that rotary dial telephones and cassette tapes are broken.

[EFlannum]

I also still play. I am going through a bit of a lull right now but I'll probably jump back in for a bit when the new expansion and PvP sertvers hit.

[HRose]

Originally Posted by SlyFrog

Now my only concern is that I'm in a guild that clearly (in my mind) has tension between wanting to say it's family/casual friendly, but also wanting to raid. You can almost feel the popping sounds as new policies closing entry to character types we "have too many of," mandating teamspeak, CTRaid, etc. are made, while still trying to let people play how they want to with some degree of flexibility. The biggest source of humor/concern is the continuing slide toward playing toward participating in raids. It's not mandatory to raid, but it is a raiding guild. It's still a mostly casual friendly guild, but you are strongly discouraged from playing alts unless you have a level 60. Etc. Nothing particularly wrong, just clear tension.

Oh, yes. It always start like that :)

That scenario is SOOO familiar.

Anyway, EQ2 in trouble? Surely not as successful as expected, we'll have to see how this translates to "in trouble".

Which SOE game isn't?

SWG is in a much worst condition, EQ is being pillaged and PlanetSide is going "free" to try to survive. I don't think that Matrix Online is more than a mmo zombie.

EQ2 is probably the most solid game they have at the moment.

[Damien Neil]

Originally Posted by SlyFrog

Yes, you are right, idiot is over the top and sensationalist. Sorry. But I really do not get why people do not use the meeting stones, and it frustrates me because I think they have a lot better functionality than the LFG. I have heard a lot of people say, "They suck," but have never once received a halfway convincing explanation of why. Other than that no one uses them, which of course is fairly ironic. I don't use them because no one ever uses them. Riiigghhhht.

They suck for many reasons.

They don't let you specify what you're going to an instance to do. Maraudon: Princess run or khans? Strat: Living or dead side? Five-man or raid? Dire Maul: West, north, east, or tribute?

They don't let you filter the classes you get. Click a meeting stone and wait and you might just find yourself in a group with three mages, a feral spec druid, and a paladin three levels too low for the instance. Good luck!

They don't let you filter the people you get. Hey, look, INinjaLoot is the group leader, the warrior doesn't speak English, and the mage has Tourette's!

They don't let you do ANY of the things that you might want to do when putting together an instance group. As such, they do indeed comprehensively suck. Am I halfway convincing yet?

I have no idea why Blizzard continues to try to make meeting stones work. Hopefully, they'll give up one of these days and add a real LFG tool.

More importantly, the meeting stones, to my knowledge, allow you to click on them once and then go adventure until a group is found. They immediately teleport you to the site, rather than having to travel there for 15 minutes after you find your group. The meeting stones offer connectivity everywhere, as opposed to the city that you happen to be in (meaning, if I am correct, that if I want to do Maradon, I have to guess which city will have players advertising for it, and then stand around if I'm using the LFG method). The meeting stones allow you to do an instance by simply checking in at any inn. The meeting stones allow me to be wandering around the Wetlands or Searing Gorge while looking for a group, rather than sitting in Ironforge spamming a channel for an hour and effectively losing an hour's worth of playtime.

The meeting stones don't teleport you anywhere, unless Blizzard has changed something while I wasn't looking.

You don't have to guess which city will have people looking for groups, since all the cities share a LFG channel. (And before the LFG channels were linked, you still didn't have to guess: Ironforge and Orgrimmar.)

You don't need to be in a city to join their LFG channel, so you can wander any damned place you want.

[John Reynolds]

Originally Posted by EFlannum

I also still play. I am going through a bit of a lull right now but I'll probably jump back in for a bit when the new expansion and PvP sertvers hit.

Same here.

[HRose]

From another forum:

Right. Taken as a net, EQ2 grows every week. The sum of +new subs in, -cancels nets out to a positive number.

Taken at the individual server level, underpopulated servers make up a disproportionately large number of the -cancels component in that equation, which correlates to "Server that is not populated enough just isn't fun."

So much so, that it's in EQ2's best interest to address the problem directly, instead of dancing around it, no matter what random non-subscribing doomsayers will end up saying.

They're going to say whatever irrelevant things they want to say anyway, and they're not the ones this move is intended to placate. The people who want to play the game are.


Man. That producer's letter could have been a lot shorter, couldn't it. This is really the crux of the issue in four sentences.

[TheWombat]

I've been playing EQ2 steadily since this past early fall when I bailed on WoW. I like it far more than WoW, but YMMV of course.

I disagree that it's hard to duo, though most of my playing is as a trio, which works exceedingly well. If you duo with a DPS/Pet class, like my Conjuror, and my wife's Warden, you can do a lot of things. A trio, like when we add our friend's Guardian, is killer.

I also disagree that this server combination thing is some sign of impending doom. The game is pretty vibrant, the numbers seem to be there, but yeah, the design of the game world does lead to some emptiness. After the overcrowded "Manhattan at rush hour" feeling I got with WoW, though, it's rather welcome; again, a matter of taste. The instancing is controversial, and not my favorite way to handle zone loading, but in practice it doesn't really affect our play (except when someone in our group heads to the wrong instance of Thundering Steppes or something).

SOE has added tons of content to the game over the past year. Again, this is just my feeling but it feels to me like I have lots more to do, explore, and discover than I ever did in WoW (where, admittedly, my 500+ person guild had already mapped out, dissected, and databased every damn thing in the game world :)). In EQ2, we often just say "hey, what's that over there?" and wander off, usually to find something neat. We're in our 40s now, but will probably re-roll on the PvP server when it opens, keeping our existing characters as well, but switching our energies to the gank server.

How you feel about an MMO is really, really dependent on a lot of very personal things, so it's pretty silly when folks trash others for their taste in games. I like WoW, and think it's a great game--but after months and months of the beta and then a year of nearly non-stop play, it lost its appeal for me. EQ2 hasn't had that long with me so it's still fresh. I see very little indication of the sort of "last days of Pompeii" decline like I do sometimes when I head over to DAOC (another game I really like); EQ2 seems pretty vibrant really.

[SlyFrog]

Originally Posted by TheWombat

I've been playing EQ2 steadily since this past early fall when I bailed on WoW. I like it far more than WoW, but YMMV of course.

I disagree that it's hard to duo, though most of my playing is as a trio, which works exceedingly well. If you duo with a DPS/Pet class, like my Conjuror, and my wife's Warden, you can do a lot of things. A trio, like when we add our friend's Guardian, is killer.

Are you doing any good content? Because as I mentioned, we discovered that you are basically killing green heroic mobs that are (by being green) far below your level, or getting slaughtered by things at your level.

Or you can go kill antelope.

Maybe we missed something. Even the people in the guild admitted it is hard to duo. I do not fully understand the supposed new ability to solo either really, since most of the solo instances I've seen seem to be long tunnels with a few weak mobs in them (for example, some of the Thundering Steppes instances). What have you found that is different?

[stusser]

It's not even clear why eq2 has individual servers. All of the overland zones are instanced but shared, unlike WoW dungeons. Only cities are static. If you instance the cities too, suddenly you don't need servers any more, just like guild wars. To fix undercrowding you just lower the number of players required to spawn a new instance.

[SlyFrog]

Originally Posted by Damien Neil

They suck for many reasons.

They don't let you specify what you're going to an instance to do. Maraudon: Princess run or khans? Strat: Living or dead side? Five-man or raid? Dire Maul: West, north, east, or tribute?

They don't let you filter the classes you get. Click a meeting stone and wait and you might just find yourself in a group with three mages, a feral spec druid, and a paladin three levels too low for the instance. Good luck!

They don't let you filter the people you get. Hey, look, INinjaLoot is the group leader, the warrior doesn't speak English, and the mage has Tourette's!

They don't let you do ANY of the things that you might want to do when putting together an instance group. As such, they do indeed comprehensively suck. Am I halfway convincing yet?

Honestly, no. As mentioned, the stones do attempt to put you with an appropriate class mix. As I also mentioned, I rarely see people making the fine differentiations between who they will and won't accept in the LFG channel. They are generally looking to fill a slot with DPS, tank, or healing. They end up having the same chance of getting some tool, and you end up getting the same chance of getting stuck with a crappy pickup group if you join up. But you have apparently had a different experience then I have.

Originally Posted by Damien Neil

You don't need to be in a city to join their LFG channel, so you can wander any damned place you want.

Oh, I did not know that. That's a decent point. That's quite helpful, I was ignorant of that.

EDIT: Now that I'm in game, I can't figure out how you do this. I'm sitting in the Searing Gorge, and it doesn't seem to want to let me join IF's LFG channel.

[Kevin Perry]

I played EQ2 since last year's launch through to December of last year. I've been playing WOW for about a month now.

I will, eventually, go back to EQ2. The world is less clean, the design is more cluttered, but there's an undeniable 'deeper' feel to the game and the related systems. WOW feels like a pretty toy. EQ2 feels like a mature game.

Anyone who has been avoiding EQ2 because of EQ1 fears and holdover angst should do themselves a favor and check out the new side of SOE. They have been consistently bending over backwards to reach out to the fan base-- their devs post constantly on the forums, for example. The technical stability is leagues beyond WOW (and I count server queues as technical instability).

The biggest plus is the EQ2 dev's commitment to change. The EQ2 world has grown enormously since launch. Every update (up to 19 of them now) has provided significant new content and often a sharp refinement in basic systems. Does this mean that the original systems were not great? In some cases, yes-- but these systems have been overhauled, and even perfectly good systems have been made better. They have looked at their competition and adapted while continuing to improve their core.

Basically, WOW || EQ2 as Duplo || Lego. You can build big cool things pretty quick with Duplo, but to do detail work you need to go with Lego.

[Sean Tudor]

Originally Posted by stusser

All that said, does anyone know anyone who plays EQ2? I sure don't.

Three people out of my WoW guild of 160 players still plays EQ2. But not that much since they always attend our MC runs. Still I am sure there are a lot of EQII players to fill a smaller group of servers.

Originally Posted by SlyFrog

Now my only concern is that I'm in a guild that clearly (in my mind) has tension between wanting to say it's family/casual friendly, but also wanting to raid. You can almost feel the popping sounds as new policies closing entry to character types we "have too many of," mandating teamspeak, CTRaid, etc. are made, while still trying to let people play how they want to with some degree of flexibility. The biggest source of humor/concern is the continuing slide toward playing toward participating in raids. It's not mandatory to raid, but it is a raiding guild. It's still a mostly casual friendly guild, but you are strongly discouraged from playing alts unless you have a level 60. Etc. Nothing particularly wrong, just clear tension.

Yup our guild is facing the exact same issues. The problem is to raid MC/BWL and raid it well you have to get serious. A casual guild mentality will not help you beat Ragnaros or Nefarian or even an easy boss like Geddon. We're currently in the process of setting up two raiding groups. One for MC and another for ZG/trash MC runs.

[Matthew Gallant]

Originally Posted by Kevin Perry

there's an undeniable 'deeper' feel to the game and the related systems.

Most of which will be completely goofed up when PvP goes in. Probably not a SWG New Game Experience level of SOE-ness, but pretty close.

[sluggo]

Damien is dead on with the meeting stones. It's as if they were designed by someone who'd never played WoW before and didn't understand what exactly was needed.

When I'm about to spend 2 hours doing an instance with a few other people, I'd like to have some control over who's in that group. If I'm forming a group, I know exactly what classes I'm looking for -- do the meeting stones know I'd prefer 2 warlocks for DM West? I also don't want to get stuck with some schmuck who's going to wipe us repeatedly on the early pulls.

The LFG system allows some flexibility in weeding out the good players from the bozos. It's essentially a mini-interview. If I say I'm looking for a priest and get a tell saying "IM ONLY 57 BUT AM GOOD INVITE PLZ", well, screw that. the meeting stones can't do that.

Now, making the LFG channel shared among the major cities was a nice move. Players have more options to choose from, and groups LFM can advertise to a larger base.

The dream improvement would be a bulletin-board-type "help wanted" system -- you could browse all the groups currently being formed, the players in each so far, and maybe notes about what they're doing. "LBRS gem run," "UBRS Rend runs" You could put your name up for several things, as if to say "I'm available for any of these," including hard-to-find groups for the Razelikh quest, etc.

And then, when you get your group, you get teleported to the meeting stone. THAT would make them useful. :)

[SlyFrog]

Originally Posted by sluggo

Damien is dead on with the meeting stones. It's as if they were designed by someone who'd never played WoW before and didn't understand what exactly was needed.

When I'm about to spend 2 hours doing an instance with a few other people, I'd like to have some control over who's in that group. If I'm forming a group, I know exactly what classes I'm looking for -- do the meeting stones know I'd prefer 2 warlocks for DM West? I also don't want to get stuck with some schmuck who's going to wipe us repeatedly on the early pulls.

I think you represent about 1 in 100 players. I'm willing to bet that far more just want to throw some stuff together and have at it.

[SlyFrog]

So what is the slash command for joining the IF LFG channel from anywhere? Because it doesn't seem to be working as I'm trying it in game.

[sluggo]

Originally Posted by SlyFrog

I think you represent about 1 in 100 players. I'm willing to bet that far more just want to throw some stuff together and have at it.

LOL. Do you even play WoW?

The first time you get into an instance with some jackhole who can't speak english and wipes you on the first three groups of mobs in Dire Maul, is exactly when you swear off the Meeting Stone system forever. It's WoW's equivalent of Russian Roulette. I'd bet the number I represent is closer to 90/100.

[TheWombat]

Are you doing any good content? Because as I mentioned, we discovered that you are basically killing green heroic mobs that are (by being green) far below your level, or getting slaughtered by things at your level.

Or you can go kill antelope.

Maybe we missed something. Even the people in the guild admitted it is hard to duo. I do not fully understand the supposed new ability to solo either really, since most of the solo instances I've seen seem to be long tunnels with a few weak mobs in them (for example, some of the Thundering Steppes instances). What have you found that is different?

Well, what can I say? We've duoed many quests, taking down blue and white and yellow mobs in droves (Conjurors, though, are AOE specialists) and doing well against blue heroics, certainly, and with the tank pet up single white heroics fairly often. Toss in a third and you can pull multiple mobs above your level. A lot of it, though, is class choice. If you don't have a healer, dps, and tanking (which a duo of a Conjuror + healer type gives you) you can be in for long fights and yeah, you'll find it tough going without a bigger group.

PvP won't affect EQ2 at all really, because it'll only be on five servers to start, two US (one an Exchange server), one English Euro, and two non-English Euro servers IIRC. There are not plans that I know of to retrofit it to any existing servers.

[HRose]

Originally Posted by sluggo

The dream improvement would be a bulletin-board-type "help wanted" system -- you could browse all the groups currently being formed, the players in each so far, and maybe notes about what they're doing. "LBRS gem run," "UBRS Rend runs" You could put your name up for several things, as if to say "I'm available for any of these," including hard-to-find groups for the Razelikh quest, etc.

Ohh, this has been one of my ideas from a long time :)

"Physical" boards in the game like the Auction House, where you can post all sort of adds. With Trade and LFG "tabs".

Where you can use default searchable tags (one for each dungeon, for example) and then post and write your own add with a compilation of both default tags and custom text.

For example you could post an add like "UBRS raid on Saturday at 7PM". It helps a lot that the server time=real time. Then other players could sign up to the raid.

I even created a complete crafting system around a similar idea (with the "buyers" posting orders that the crafters can tap and use).