Three, condensed months of mmorpg discussions

[HRose]

Originally Posted by Flowers

As for different play styles and roles, I'm not sure what either of you mean. Do you think he means a tank mage?

OMFG, no.

A tank mage is a stacking class. It means tank+mage. It's two things.

In my idea you can switch. So, for example, you can be a tank now and a mage then. Not both at the same time.

If you are asking about how a mage could "tank":
It requires some brainstorming and creativity but it's so absolutely possible (and fun).

How?
For example he could cast some sort of magic armor.
For example he could summon a tanking pet.
For example he could shapeshifs himself into a demon or an elemental (this already happen for the druids in WoW, which are a perfect example of a class that can switch roles).
For example he could use illusions to draw the attention of the monster on a fake image.
For example he could use root or other blocking spells or levitation.
For example he could slow down the monster and kite it.
For example he could charm a though mob and use it to tank.
For example he could blind the mob.

And so on. The possibilities are endless.

Btw, Gandalf kicked asses with a sword in a hand and a staff in the other.

[HRose]

Originally Posted by Charles

Ah. So you've replaced one grind with another. Because, whether it's experience levels or skills, there's still a grind there to level them up. Except, in this case, it's even worse. Because not only do you have to level up your character, but you have to level up a bunch of other abilities just in case. Sounds, to me, to actually be worse than the level grind of WoW.

To an extent, yes.

The skills would "level up" fast at the beginning and then slow down. The flat power curve would also allow you to do your duty relatively well without "grinding" the system.

Here we just have different opinions. I believe the fun in WoW is in the fragmentation and multiplication of smaller goals, all accessible.

This is taken out right from the manual of Civilization 4. And it fits:

Why did people love Civ?

The turn-based gameplay is key to a series of overlapping mini-goals which usually lead to the same result: a very late night of gaming.

I believe the variety of activities and skills in the game is a selling point. Not a weakness.

[mouselock]

Originally Posted by HRose

If you are asking about how a mage could "tank":
It requires some brainstorming and creativity but it's so absolutely possible (and fun).

But I'm not asking you how a mage could tank. That's an easy solution and has already been solved.

What I am asking you is how a tank can heal. Or how a rogue can heal. Or how a healer can become a viable tank instantaneously to solve the problem of "Well, we're all here except for Fred, but since he's our tank I guess we can't play."

I'm with Charles.. what you seem to want to do is make it so that you can keep playing the same singular character ad infinitum no matter how things shift slowly. I'm not seeing where some combination of working on an alt and/or sidekicking isn't a more than adequate (and likely better) solution than your "retraining". Especially since you seem against the tankmage portion which means, presumably, you'd be against the dual/class or other power carryover approaches. (As well you should be in an MMO, IMO.)

If we had your hypothetical exceedingly/totally shallow levelling curve, why not just pick up a new character instead of going "I want my tank to be a mage now." Hell, the min/maxers will do that because it, again, allows for whatever small amount of power separation your game system has built in.

I think you're trying to solve a very narrow problem. And you still have to be careful not to get into the FFXI/AD&D type of rut where it becomes "Okay, I'll be a fighter until level 10 then I'll multiclass to mage for the free spells for the first 10 levels, then I'll switch to thief, and finally end up at cleric so I can do everything!" Dungeon Siege II is a good example of some of the pitfalls: You can permanently gimp yourself by spending all your time, energy trying to get a little bit of everything in your character and ending up underpowered compared to someone who focuses.

[HRose]

Originally Posted by mouselock

But I'm not asking you how a mage could tank. That's an easy solution and has already been solved.

What I am asking you is how a tank can heal. Or how a rogue can heal.

You are confusing things here.

There are "styles" (persistent) and "roles" (permeable).

You can only switch the latter.

A tank CANNOT heal. Because these are two roles. And you can only tank OR heal OR have rogue possibilities (DPS?). The roles never stack, but you can switch. When you are a tank you cannot heal. And when you are an healer you stop being able to tank. My definition of a "role" is a functional need in a party that needs to be filled in a way or another. It's more tied to the group mechanics in the game than the archetypes.

The "styles" are more cultural values, like the fighting styles on Tekken. You could use a set type of weapons, or be a monk and fight with your hands. Or be a spellcaster, or an evocator, or an illusionist, or a mentalist.

These could be styles. They are still rather generic but here it's about the setting of the game. The cultures and so on.

Especially since you seem against the tankmage portion which means, presumably, you'd be against the dual/class or other power carryover approaches. (As well you should be in an MMO, IMO.)

Yes, no dual classes. Mostly because a skill system is flexible enough for the customization.

If we had your hypothetical exceedingly/totally shallow levelling curve, why not just pick up a new character instead of going "I want my tank to be a mage now."

I never said you cannot do this. The other is an option. So that you could retain your identity (and social ties), for example. Or keep your progress in PvP. And so on.

It's an idea with the purpose to help you enjoy the game more. Opening up possibilities if you want to explore them. Without forcing you to build alts if you want to do something else.

Dungeon Siege II is a good example of some of the pitfalls: You can permanently gimp yourself by spending all your time, energy trying to get a little bit of everything in your character and ending up underpowered compared to someone who focuses.

Over time, yes. A specialized character progress faster than one who explores more.

But there is nothing to prevent you to be as effective as every other player.

DS2 has pitfalls because you need to level your skills to the difficulty of the content. In a virtual world you select the content, so you can "waste" time on what you like. Moving to something else only when you feel ready.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by HRose

You are confusing things here.

There are "styles" (persistent) and "roles" (permeable).

You can only switch the latter.

A tank CANNOT heal. Because these are two roles. And you can only tank OR heal OR have rogue possibilities (DPS?). The roles never stack, but you can switch. When you are a tank you cannot heal. And when you are an healer you stop being able to tank. My definition of a "role" is a functional need in a party that needs to be filled in a way or another. It's more tied to the group mechanics in the game than the archetypes.

So a mage can tank, but a tank can't mage?

You've got a problem here.

If a mage can take on different roles via your descriptions, how does a fighter take on the role of a healer? Come on, concrete examples.

[Linoleum]

White Men Can't Tank.

[mouselock]

Originally Posted by Charles

So a mage can tank, but a tank can't mage?

You've got a problem here.

If a mage can take on different roles via your descriptions, how does a fighter take on the role of a healer? Come on, concrete examples.

(I'm hopping off of Charles' response, but the comments are aimed at HRose. I miss nested quotes.)

Specifically, let's assume the three basic styles:

Melee (up close and personal)
Ranged (magic is easiest here)
Reactive (healer, buffer, basically they cure conditions, fix up bad things that have already happened)

Now given roles (tank, heal, damage) you have:

Melee - Tank is obvious, heal ??, damage - rogue-like
Ranged - Tank (previous magic examples), heal (magic, but not like the reactive type somehow?), damage - magic, bows, etc..
Reactive - Tank? (Insane self-only healing maybe? Chi-based monk style perhaps?), heal (obvious), damage (errr.. how is this going to be differentiated from the ranged style?)

Some things cross over fairly well. Some don't at all. Those may not be the primary styles that you were envisioning, but I think it's reasonable to say they are the base of the primary styles currently represented in MMOs, and would have to be accounted for.

Even if you just reduce it to melee and ranged and roll healer into magic user under ranged, I still don't understand how you plan to make a healer fit under a melee mechanic/style. And it's only going to get worse as you try to break out the melee styles into sub-styles which are differentiated (which you would seem to want to do).

In short, how do you actually propose to keep a common mechanic across multiple roles to enforce the same "style" on a per character basis? Unless you can give some compelling evidence of this seeming feasible across all roles for even a few specified styles, I think you have issues with making your ideal meet reality.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

I think part of the confusion here is an erroneous conflation of the Mage class with the Mage role. Here's how I'm following HRose's "fixed classes/flexible roles" concept, illustrated with a simple example paradigm for a hypothetical game:

Roles:
Tanks absorb damage. They engage opponents and prevent them from attacking weaker party members.
Rogues deal melee damage. They are fragile and must fight on the front lines, but dish out the heaviest hits in the game.
Archers deal ranged damage to single targets. They are fragile, but do good damage and get to stay out of the way of combat unless something breaks through the tanks and rogues.
Mages deal ranged damage to multiple targets. They are fragile, but can fight from the rear and are vital for facing large groups of enemies.
Healers deal very little damage, but exist primarily to heal party members. Though weak, they can do their jobs without getting into direct combat most of the time.

Classes:
The Northman: Northmen are savages, barbarians, and bandits. They disdain magic and heavy armor.
The Teeker: Teekers practice telekinesis, creating physical force with the power of their minds.
The Ghost: Ghosts are the partially corporeal spirits of the dead.
The Siren: Sirens are sinister, thin-limbed creatures that look almost human. Their strength is unnatural and their appetite for souls is alarming.
The Experiment: Experiments were created through reckless bio-engineering. They are disgusting but effective.

In a typical MMO, one would expect each class to correspond to a role or compromise between roles. Here, however, each role is an option open to each class...

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Five Northmen have grouped together. In order to fight their way through the dangerous Lair of the Yoni Ghouls (suggested for levels 25-30), they will need to specialize, each in a different role. They stop by a Northman outpost and grab some new weapons.

Stf-u decides to be the tank, so he gets a spear and a large hide shield. He'll wade into the thick of things and goad enemies to attack him, keeping them at bay with his long reach and portable cover.

4me2poopon is a bit more daring. He'll be the rogue. He takes up his instrument of valor, the twohanded axe. He can do some very serious damage with it, but he can expect to be hurt seriously in return. He'll probably die the most often, assuming Stf-u knows what he's doing and the Yoni Ghouls don't break through and start enveloping back-row party members in their treacherous folds.

Beecock, the party leader, will be an archer, picking out key enemies and skewering them with his javelins. Aside from being pretty damaging, a javelin through the body is debilitating, reducing movement and attack speed.

URbraneONdrugz prefers the mage lifestyle. He stocks up on light throwing axes. He'll chuck them into crowds in large quantities.

GW_Bush, last but not least, will be the healer. He'll slap bandages on whoever needs them, do some hasty stitching if necessary, and if somebody actually dies, give them a bit of rough chest-pumping and mouth-to-mouth.

Now let's see what another party is doing inside the Yoni Ghouls' Lair. These guys are Teekers. The Teeker effects are pretty flashy, since the developers decided telekinesis should be visible and colorful and glowing. It looks cool in screenshots.

Biatch-Noggin, whose name is rumored to have been inspired by advertising agency Chiat-Day, is wearing his Control Circlet as usual. With this thing on, he can have three ghouls at once flailing helplessly as he suspends them in midair.

Farm4gold isn't really a gold farmer, just a daring young Teek rogue. A Flux Spike allows him to make devastating short-range telekinetic attacks. He is fighting a desperate fight against the ghouls that the tank has not immobilized.

Fuck_tha_EULA is on archer duty, using a Narrow Modulator to focus his will over long distances. The Yoni Ghouls in Biatch-Noggin's clutches bleed from their orifices as he hammers them like fucking piñatas.

Shitnrotate, our intrepid mage, has a Network Projector. He evens the odds by lashing Farm4gold's opponents with meshes of glowing force. This weakens and disorients them, and Farm can take them down with a few hits while minimizing the damage to himself with a little fancy footwork and luck.

GW_Bush_SR takes the healer role, using his Ether Controller to protect wounded areas for the time it takes to shunt some lifeforce into them. Even as we watch, he throws the horns or something like them, and a bulky, glowing brace appears on Farm4gold's wounded arm. After a moment, the wound heals and the brace dissolves. In game terms, armor is temporarily raised, then that buff goes away and the hitpoints come back.

Still struggling through the newb areas are five young Ghosts. They are currently in the Bounce Palace of Fluffy Squirrels (suggested for levels 5-10).

"Fucking cover me," grumbles TiteBunz in a Teamspeak baritone as his big-titted but diaphonous tank trembles and dissolves into a loose fog for the third time.

"I'm trying," says AnalExplorer, letting loose with his risky soul-sucking attack. If he pulls it off, he'll be powerfully healed. If he fails, their foe will have a free shot at him.

"I think we're gonna wipe," says Prez_GWBush gloomily as she suffuses TiteBunz with a golden fog of reviving energy. Bunz recommences his/her attack, trying to draw the enemy into a frigid ghostly embrace that will slow and weaken it.

But the Pet Squirrel fights back. It manages a crit on Anal after his attack fails, and he too quivers and dissipates. Bush curses the cooldown timer on her rez.

ONoez, the mage, is of little use here. "I should have hit the rogue shrine," he says mournfully, and nobody disagrees with him, although technically the game lore calls it a Shrine of Soultheft.

TEH-Hannitizer, the archer, is their last hope. He breathes a silent, fervent prayer, and gambles on Terror Curse, which at his level has only a ten percent success chance on Pet Squirrels.

It bounces. ONoez throws himself in front of the ravening Pet Squirrel to buy the rest more time as TiteBunz drops again, hissing "Shit!" into his microphone. Bush rezzes the Explorer, and Hannitizer tries another Terror Curse. This time it sticks, and the squirrel flees in panic.

AnalExplorer burns an all-too-rare Rosicrucian Resurrection Stone to bring TiteBunz back, and together the party runs for it. Once out of combat, they begin the trek back to the Ghost Shrines so that ONoez can change classes to something more useful. You only fight enemies one at a time in the Bounce Palace anyway. Hannitizer says they ought to go back to the Sewer Warehouse Caverns and grind more Limp Rats. The rest of the party agrees to consider it.

Meanwhile, a party of Sirens is fighting Acorn Bandits in the Fields of Lingam (suggested for levels 10-15). Most people agree that this is where the game really starts to get fun.

YeOldeTymeRP is keeping the bandits occupied as a tank. His spindly avatar would seem lost inside its massive suit of armor if it didn't move so fluidly. He strikes the bandits around him with his armored fists, for he neither has nor needs a weapon. Their Arrowhead Clubs bounce harmlessly off his platemail. They'll make fine loot later -- most vendors will buy Arrowhead Clubs for 60 to 70 dorito yen.

FukkFakk is operating as a rogue, and there is a certain beauty in watching him shred Acorn Bandits with his razor-edged gauntlets. Unlike OldeTyme, he wears fairly light armor, and a few solid hits on him have him screaming for a medic.

EQsux raises his dartgun to his lips and pegs another bandit, whose eye erupts in a spurt of blood as he clutches it helplessly. Then the curare kicks in.

ALLurBASErBELONG2US, winner of a serverwide annoying name competition, dances through the bandits scattering poisoned caltrops like popcorn. Siren mages don't attack at range -- instead, they must weave through combat like rogues do.

GDubyaBush, the healer, must also be within touch range to work her magic (figuratively speaking). As we watch, she darts close to FukkFakk and licks his wounds lasciviously. They close up. Those wacky Sirens!

Lastly, here's a bunch of guys who were in the beta -- members of ForgotMyCondoms. One of the more powerful guilds, ForgotMyCondoms has gotten several server firsts in their time, such as being the first to complete the Grasping the Lingam's Secrets quest. These are their mains, Experiments created back when Experiments were stupidly overpowered (post-1.1 but pre-1.3). Let's take a listen to their Ventrilo chatter as they plumb the depths of Yoni Crater (suggested for levels 90-95).

"What are these things?" says Tikkelmypikkel, activating Fleshroots (which anchors him in one place, but gives him tentacles with which to bind and constrict monsters). "They look familiar," he adds, as several are caught in his web of pulsing meat.

"They're reskinned Limp Rats," guesses ChoggleTime, his avatar's throat bulging as he vomits a Toxic Bloodgush on one of them. "Remember in the beta, when all the Yoni monsters were rats? I bet these are just placeholders."

"So lame," jeers 80087355, using Longarm to send one spiny limb stretching out past Tikkel and Choggle to hit the rat. He impales it, but another rat attacks his arm and he withdraws it in pain. "Oh, so fucking gay! I can't believe they made Longarm vulnerable to retaliation. Experiment archers SUCK now. I'm totally going to cancel my subscription when this month is up." He will, of course, do no such thing.

GDubyaPrezBush, who is rumored to have a large number of alts on this server, steps up and heals him without comment, slapping a raw, veiny appendage slobbering with moisture over his damaged arm.

ePeen, their mage, barfs out a cloud of Serial Killer Spores and the remaining rats perish. "This area's lame, guys. It's not even finished yet. Let's go back to the Hysterical Chamber."

"No, dude," says 8008, "this may be lame, but think how awesome it's going to be when we finish it first."

Ahem. So to recap, this system means that while class has an impact on some nuances of your capabilities, and a major stylistic importance, it never excludes you from a group. Anybody can take the archer role or the healer role or whatever, depending on what's missing. No more LFG need priest, where are all the priests, oh god why didn't anybody in the guild think to play a priest. It's just LFG need five people of roughly similar levels and we can work it out from there.

These particular examples of classes are basically like races -- albeit more influential, especially in terms of art and animation. But HRose's "flexible classes" -- even the ones in this example -- are perfectly compatible with a more typical race system. Just read it through again and pretend that half of them are elves and have +1 to gay.

[HRose]

Originally Posted by Unicorn McGriddle

These particular examples of classes are basically like races -- albeit more influential, especially in terms of art and animation. But HRose's "flexible classes" -- even the ones in this example -- are perfectly compatible with a more typical race system. Just read it through again and pretend that half of them are elves and have +1 to gay.

You got it right and your other explanation is faithful to the idea.

Originally I was actually thinking about the fighting styles as races. But with actual gameplay implications. This is why I repeated that it's more a cultural differentiation.

And no elves with +1 gay because the "setting" I shaped all this about is not my own, but of a writer I really like. Michael Moorcock. Stormbringer or Elric of Melnibone. This is the best "dark fantasy" out there (and still available and absolutely perfect for a mmorpg, contrarily to 99% of the "licenced" worlds out there) and the setting was actually intended to be darker, crude and more realistic. With more odd creatures than the average generic fluff of the "high fantasy". (read the description of Melnibone, that alone, made 3D, would be definitely worth the price of the whole game).

And yes, I would expect the game to be appealing even to the ladies. Because I don't think all the women out there can just like cutebunnies hopping around and the FFXI catgirls.

Originally Posted by Charles

If a mage can take on different roles via your descriptions, how does a fighter take on the role of a healer? Come on, concrete examples.

With the only imposition of his hands?

No, really. Whatever. There isn't really any "fighter" class because that's more a role than a style. We are just using the wrong words because I still haven't defined each race and class. So it's all design in potential with the goals set more than something definite in the detail.

I usually refuse to go so much in detail because it goes beyond of what I'm writing. I'm creating game systems, not directly the specific skill used. This mostly because all that comes from the practice. The testing and the implementation. So it's silly to create all those details without an actual concrete base.

A fighter, to not dodge your question, could have paladin or shamanic powers. Usually an healer is considered "support". The role seems to be about damage mitigation and healing over time (but then I would change the default mechanics for something more varied and more creative combinations).

Now I cannot find anything more convincing or original. But I think I would be able to figure something out, eventually. It's mostly about thinking out of the box and leave behind some commonplaces that the current mmorpgs have enrooted in our expectations.

[HRose]

Btw, that was just brilliant :)

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Glad you liked it. Penis jokes don't write themselves! It takes skill and dedication. And a refusal to grow up. I'm like Peter Pan, but grosser.

Regarding the elves with +1 gay, I was for demonstration purposes using an MMO that was alarmingly typical in most respects so as not to cloud the issue. Naturally there would be elves in such a game. As for a Melnibone game, that's not a bad idea in its own right.

[Flowers]

Make a diagram!

[mouselock]

Originally Posted by Unicorn McGriddle

Ahem. So to recap, this system means that while class has an impact on some nuances of your capabilities, and a major stylistic importance, it never excludes you from a group. Anybody can take the archer role or the healer role or whatever, depending on what's missing. No more LFG need priest, where are all the priests, oh god why didn't anybody in the guild think to play a priest. It's just LFG need five people of roughly similar levels and we can work it out from there.

So we're back to Charles' other complaint then, that being that if he wants to be a tank, he's not going to want to play a healer role. More specifically, he's not going to want to do it often enough to become good at it. I was hoping for more of some type of breakthrough that would allow the skills that he learns playing his primary tank role to be directly applicable to him needing to pinch hit as a healer, but what you're talking about is changing around the animation of the character so that every race can be a healer if they want. No offense intended, but, well, big deal.

Just read it through again and pretend that half of them are elves and have +1 to gay.

Sure, but I don't think they particularly solve any of the problems in group composition. They certainly don't do anything new and different (see EQ's Depths of Darkhollow expansion for Monster Shrouds to get the same type of "I have a dildo of healing, I'm a healer!" effect.)

[Unicorn McGriddle]

PETER PAN.......................ME
>--------GROSSNESS-------->

Edit: mouselock, it *is* a big deal to people who just want to play with their friends and don't give a shit about the sacred integrity of the MMO class archetypes or the shit they picked on the character selection 60 levels ago because it looked cool or appealed to them thematically.

[mouselock]

Originally Posted by Unicorn McGriddle

PETER PAN.......................ME
>--------GROSSNESS-------->

Edit: mouselock, it *is* a big deal to people who just want to play with their friends and don't give a shit about the sacred integrity of the MMO class archetypes or the shit they picked on the character selection 60 levels ago because it looked cool or appealed to them thematically.

So your contention is that after 60 levels someone's going to go, "Oh shit, we need a healer and we're all rogues! Bob, you be the healer." and that's going to be:

a) Okay with Bob, who, you know, spent 60 levels being a rogue so probably really wants to play a rogue!

b) Sufficiently accessible so that Bob can do as good a job being a healer as he does being a rogue, despite not playing the healer from level 1-59.

It's like a solution in search of a problem! If the game needs a healer and a tank and a DPS role, and you and your group of friends have levelled up only the DPS or the Tank or some combination thereof, the real problem is that the game needs all three and none of you obviously enjoyed playing a healer. This doesn't address that. It lets you play "Hot Potato" to see who gets screwed (either this time, or all the times).

You really think it's a good idea to have the following conversation in game:

"Okay Bob, you got the uber loot last time and we didn't, so for the next month to pay off your debt you're our healer. If we get another uber loot in that time, then whoever gets it can take your place."

Now if you can figure out how to have Bob backstab to heal Frank for 2500 HP and make it work in any way at all, then we're talking. Because then Bob can still be Bob, but the need for a healer can be fulfilled. However, what you've fleshed out (and what HRose seems to be proposing without talking about how he'd actually go about doing it) doesn't really buy you anything other than reducing the odium from 60 levels of healer on one person to spreading the hate around over the entire range. It has nothing to do with the sanctity of class roles whatsoever. It has to do with "Maybe if people don't like playing these roles enough to support the play mechanic, you've got a mangled play mechanic."

[Charles]

Yeah. While I find the idea interesting, ultimately, I see it as making the grind worse. Especially using a skill based system because there's no way of avoiding it, with a skill based system. You need to spend X hours with Y role to reach Z skill level.

If, at any point, Z skill level is required, then you are asking a player with role Y1, to play role Y2, you need X1(Z1) + X2(Z2) time investment now for that character.

So, not only do you have to spend a certain amount of time skilling up your character in your chosen role, you also have to grind other roles up, either "just in case", or because of pressure from other people.

No thanks. I wish to unsubscribe to your list.

I'm not going to champion any new MMO that doesn't replace grinding with entertainment that caters to my playstyle; as such, neither will I champion an MMO that requires other players to play against their own playstyle.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

For what it's worth, I know I for one would like to be able to have that kind of flexibility.

Firstly, it's not going to be like it's impossible to learn how to play a role just because you didn't fill that role from level one to the cap.

Secondly, people will be adopting different roles for the whole game, not just at level 60 or whatever. I don't think many people are going to hit the level cap with experience in only one combat role.

Thirdly, I really wouldn't mind more variety in my MMO gameplay. Starting a new goddamned character every time I want to try something different sucks. It takes me away from my friends unless they all want to start new characters too. And it changes my name and avatar, so people won't recognize me. And if I do it often, I'm going to get pretty fucking sick of the newb zones.

Fourthly, it goes without saying that no role should be an unenjoyable burden to play. Not all people are going to like all roles, but if being a healer sucks tampons, then something needs to be done about that -- maybe the healer role should be overhauled, or maybe it should be removed and its abilities subsumed into the other roles (now everybody can do the appropriate "healing" -- all Northmen carry bandages, etc.). Saying "what if a particular part of the game is so bad that nobody wants to play it" -- why not ask me what good any of this will be if the servers are so crashy that people can only play for five minutes out of every hour?

I would imagine that some people will want to try everything, and some people will want to stick to one thing, and some will fall between those extremes. Of the people who stick to one thing, they probably won't all stick to the same thing unless there's some kind of underlying problem, such as archers doing double the damage of anything else. Of the people who won't play some classes, again, if those are the same classes for everybody, there's another problem there.

At the very least I think something like this would encourage grouping. Which is a good thing.

Edit: Charles: Whoa! Who said anything about a skill-based system? HELL NO! That would not play well with this idea for precisely the reasons you state. What I'm talking about would NOT maintain separate stats for every role that you'd have to skill up. Screw that. No, in my example, if you go up a level, you go up a level, period. It increments your abilities in whatever role you take on. A level 24 player can tank at level 24 or heal at level 24 or what the fuck ever role he likes. No grinding up your mageyness is required.

Yeah, that would be terrible.

[Rob Beschizza]

Originally Posted by HRose

And no elves with +1 gay because the "setting" I shaped all this about is not my own, but of a writer I really like. Michael Moorcock. Stormbringer or Elric of Melnibone.

Dude, Melniboneans are the ultimate gay elves. Deal.

[mouselock]

Originally Posted by Unicorn McGriddle

Secondly, people will be adopting different roles for the whole game, not just at level 60 or whatever. I don't think many people are going to hit the level cap with experience in only one combat role.

I would imagine that some people will want to try everything, and some people will want to stick to one thing, and some will fall between those extremes. Of the people who stick to one thing, they probably won't all stick to the same thing unless there's some kind of underlying problem, such as archers doing double the damage of anything else. Of the people who won't play some classes, again, if those are the same classes for everybody, there's another problem there.

At the very least I think something like this would encourage grouping. Which is a good thing.

But that's the main problem. There's nothing in any of the current games that prevents people from playing certain classes (healers, casters, etc..) yet there sure as hell certainly is a disparity. We can discuss whether or not all healer implementations to date have sucked or not, but certainly it seems like there's some underlying commonality that makes them less than desired. I'll heartily agree that if you had all the classes be all the roles and all the roles were as fun for everyone to play as any other roles (on average) then you're golden.

However, the system as it's evolving being talked about here doesn't make that true. I thought at first that's what HRose was talking about, and conceptually it's a great idea though it's hard to see how it works out. However, if he's really thinking something along the lines of your fleshing out, then all you've done is given the dabblers like yourself an out so you don't have to relevel 7 characters. He'd already solved that with his hypothetical flat levelling structure, where everyone could play with everyone else, anyway. Need a healer? There's no power differential, so why not just start a new one?

It's not that being a healer sucks tampons so much as it is that a lot of the audience seems drawn to the "ZOMG!! I JUST FOURTEEN KATRILLION DAMAGE TO THAT THING IN ONE SLICE!! I SO RAWKKK!!!" classes disproportionately. That's why you can't walk without tripping over a rogue. I don't see how being able to choose to be a healer instead of a rogue this time is going to address that. Even if you assume that everyone plays all roles in proportion to the breakdown in other games, you're still looking at a shortage of the less action-packed classes at any given time.

Thus, I don't think the "solution" being discussed here is much of one. What you need to do is somehow make being a healer as fun as being a rogue to the same type of people who like to play rogues. And switching up animations and gear kits while keeping the same base gameplay won't do it. That may not be the intention HRose or you had, but whereas I'm willing to believe you can implement a "Choose your role dynamically" system because I've already seen some of those implemented (and I'm willing to, dubiously, take HRose's word on being able to implement such a flat power curve), nobody's provided even an inkling of how to go about making a play style fit across all class roles. And certainly what draws many people to the different roles is the play style those roles offer. (Which is why, for example, paladins got so bent out of shape after 1.9 in WoW; they expected the play style to magically change to conform more to what they had expected a paladin to be. They found out it wouldn't, and got upset.)

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Originally Posted by mouselock

He'd already solved that with his hypothetical flat levelling structure, where everyone could play with everyone else, anyway. Need a healer? There's no power differential, so why not just start a new one?

My example deals purely with HRose's class/role idea and does not cover a flat power curve. I do like the idea of flat or at least shorter and flatter power curves in general -- I made some posts a while back on a hypothetical Sabbat MMO with an essentially flat power curve. But in this case, you can see I mention levels and grinding for experience -- think of it as WoW with this one feature added but everything else left the same, if that makes more sense.

Even if the power curve is flat, starting a new character has a negative social impact because it changes your name and appearance. There may be times when people want to do this, but it discourages players from being identifiable personas in-game.

Originally Posted by mouselock

It's not that being a healer sucks tampons so much as it is that a lot of the audience seems drawn to the "ZOMG!! I JUST FOURTEEN KATRILLION DAMAGE TO THAT THING IN ONE SLICE!! I SO RAWKKK!!!" classes disproportionately. That's why you can't walk without tripping over a rogue. I don't see how being able to choose to be a healer instead of a rogue this time is going to address that. Even if you assume that everyone plays all roles in proportion to the breakdown in other games, you're still looking at a shortage of the less action-packed classes at any given time.

Here's an anecdote for ya, for what it's worth: I played a rogue in WoW (although it was more for stealth than for huge damage), and by the time I got to 60, I was consumed with the knowledge that I would really have liked to have spent at least some of that time doing not-rogue stuff. And that being able to do not-rogue stuff at 60 would also be nice. Hey, maybe I'm alone in that, but I don't think so.

Not every party has to have five people and one of each role. I think there is some room for a modest imbalance in preferred roles.

Four out of the five roles I suggest are not healers. Not every party needs a healer. They make groups more effective and some people really enjoy playing them, but if you don't want to play one, who's gonna make you?

Originally Posted by mouselock

nobody's provided even an inkling of how to go about making a play style fit across all class roles.

I'd have a difficult time giving you an adequate answer on that without knowing more about how the actual mechanics of the game were going to work than the current "wouldn't it be cool if"-level discussion. I think any dev team tackling this question would have a lot of ground to cover in doing so. Aside from the obvious issues of the mechanics of combat and classes and mobs and so forth, "play styles" within that framework would have to be delineated and their role in the game would have to be determined.

I'm not really sure that's the way to go about it, though. If rogues just backstab to heal when in healer mode, isn't healer mode not much of a change? Seems like it kind of defeats the point of being able to do something different. I think a better unifying feature for classes is flavor and "look and feel." These things don't really have system effects or need to be balanced in the mathematical sense, but they *do* make a difference for a lot of people.

[mouselock]

Originally Posted by Unicorn McGriddle

Here's an anecdote for ya, for what it's worth: I played a rogue in WoW (although it was more for stealth than for huge damage), and by the time I got to 60, I was consumed with the knowledge that I would really have liked to have spent at least some of that time doing not-rogue stuff. And that being able to do not-rogue stuff at 60 would also be nice. Hey, maybe I'm alone in that, but I don't think so.

And one of the guys I play with started another alt rogue after his first rogue so he could see what it was like havinga different build without having to respec his main. Some people just really like the way a particular class plays, some people like to try different ones, some people are in between. However, I think it's generally true that most who aren't hardcore will eventually find one play style they greatly prefer and this becomes their main. All bets are off, of course, when you talk about the folk who are getting their 5th character to 60 or such, but I don't think that's the target audience we're talking about here anyway, do you?

Not every party has to have five people and one of each role. I think there is some room for a modest imbalance in preferred roles.

But the point was this was proposed as a way to enable people to always group and do stuff because you'd need the roles and people wouldn't be around. So while every party doesn't have to have one of each role, clearly the idea is to cover the bases.

Four out of the five roles I suggest are not healers. Not every party needs a healer. They make groups more effective and some people really enjoy playing them, but if you don't want to play one, who's gonna make you?

Again, the idea was proposed to solve a problem wherein you really did need a healer. If you're just arguing "variety" is good, no complaints there, though I think there are better ways to do it than mutable classes. (Say by actually implementing complementary gameplay to all classes; crafting, owning businesses, ferrying/collecting information, searching for artifacts, truly different gameplay.)

I'd have a difficult time giving you an adequate answer on that without knowing more about how the actual mechanics of the game were going to work than the current "wouldn't it be cool if"-level discussion.

Fair enough. I'm just not a big fan of the "wouldn't it be cool if" level without some concrete ideas and reasons why I care. It's probably the scientist in me. :)

I'm not really sure that's the way to go about it, though. If rogues just backstab to heal when in healer mode, isn't healer mode not much of a change? Seems like it kind of defeats the point of being able to do something different. I think a better unifying feature for classes is flavor and "look and feel." These things don't really have system effects or need to be balanced in the mathematical sense, but they *do* make a difference for a lot of people.

But they don't solve the original problem. You're basically just arguing for more variety. The difficulty there comes in with the fact that if you want anything other than "Same keypresses, different graphics" you have to worry about balancing. Compare EQ and it's pretty wide class variety (and balance issues) with WoW and it's narrow class focus (and subsequent lack of balance issues - there are not really a tremendous amount of long dissertations about who you want as a tank for content because, well, if you want to tank you make a warrior; end of discussion. The bad about this is that if you grow bored of the warrior but still want to tank, you're screwed. The good is that you don't end up in situations like EQ has had where literally nobody has wanted to group with a warrior because other classes tanked better, and everyone really cared that they did so because it improved their gameplay experience.)

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Somebody posted a "One Night in Bangkok" parody in another thread, and now I can't stop thinking about Thai hookers. The internet is a wonderful thing.

Originally Posted by mouselock

All bets are off, of course, when you talk about the folk who are getting their 5th character to 60 or such, but I don't think that's the target audience we're talking about here anyway, do you?

Nah, not as a rule.

Originally Posted by mouselock

But the point was this was proposed as a way to enable people to always group and do stuff because you'd need the roles and people wouldn't be around. So while every party doesn't have to have one of each role, clearly the idea is to cover the bases.

Yeah, covering the bases is part of it, and it doesn't guarantee that every base will be covered all the time -- but I think it would lead to an overall improvement in, uh, base coverage.

Originally Posted by mouselock

Again, the idea was proposed to solve a problem wherein you really did need a healer. If you're just arguing "variety" is good, no complaints there, though I think there are better ways to do it than mutable classes. (Say by actually implementing complementary gameplay to all classes; crafting, owning businesses, ferrying/collecting information, searching for artifacts, truly different gameplay.)

If that stuff gets implemented, that's awesome. Apart from the dev time investment, I think there's no good reason not to do all that stuff, and mutable classes as well.

Originally Posted by mouselock

You're basically just arguing for more variety.

On this particular point, yes, I am arguing for more variety. Variety in games is a good thing, broadly speaking. The very specific sort of variety I'm discussing seems good also.

Originally Posted by mouselock

The difficulty there comes in with the fact that if you want anything other than "Same keypresses, different graphics" you have to worry about balancing.

True. I'd want to strike a compromise, make each role similar across classes but with some differences. So a Ghost mage would be comparable to a Teeker mage, but there'd be some divergences -- in WoW terms, more differentiation than race provides, but less than one talent tree versus another.

[mouselock]

Originally Posted by Unicorn McGriddle

True. I'd want to strike a compromise, make each role similar across classes but with some differences. So a Ghost mage would be comparable to a Teeker mage, but there'd be some divergences -- in WoW terms, more differentiation than race provides, but less than one talent tree versus another.

From what I've seen so far, most of these games invariably boil down to a large chunk of the population seeking out the class that has a 2% advantage unfortunately. This leads to a lot of excess work trying to "balance" your slight differences. I'm just not sure that there's not a better use of time. (Although I'll try to play in fantasy land too and say that if you don't care about time it would seem like a no lose proposition. I'm just not very good at the rampant speculation without considering the tradeoffs. I'd rather see the time that gets devoted to making slight variants of more or less the same gameplay be used to make more radically different gameplay like what I mentioned previously.)

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Originally Posted by mouselock

I'd rather see the time that gets devoted to making slight variants of more or less the same gameplay be used to make more radically different gameplay like what I mentioned previously.

A good point, but I think often it's easier to make slight variants than radically different new stuff without being proportionately less worthwhile.

[Charles]

Unicorn, HRose specifically said you'd have to skill up the roles. So you and he are now arguing different game designs.

Anyway, to run with the balance issue again: if you have 5 races, and 5 roles, then arguably, you are going to have to balance the equivalent of 25 classes. Even if there is minor differences.

And to go back to the granddaddy of them all, UO. The skill system allowed people to fill multiple roles. Except, thinking of the 2% advantage thing that mouselock issued, you'd see that with every patch in UO, a vast majority of the populace would immediately skill up to being the most optimal set of skills. So depending on what patch was nearby, everyone would do one thing.

This is, unfortunately, unavoidable. If you have any kind of power levels at all, then, realistically, people will strive to be as powerful as possible. You will get the occasional wacko like myself (who used a shield as a merc in DOAC, much to the derision of... everyone) who attempts to be different, but realistically, people are going to go with what is most efficient, on a large scale.

This is why I feel that power levels need to be ripped out of the game, and replaced by sets of skills that allow players to do radically different things. The problem with this idea is that it does end up forcing a teamplay model. But at least in that situation people have an actual role involving levels which are created to cater to roles, rather than a purely combat oriented game where the ladder is all that matters.

[mouselock]

Originally Posted by Charles

This is why I feel that power levels need to be ripped out of the game, and replaced by sets of skills that allow players to do radically different things. The problem with this idea is that it does end up forcing a teamplay model. But at least in that situation people have an actual role involving levels which are created to cater to roles, rather than a purely combat oriented game where the ladder is all that matters.

Even if you don't have to upgrade your skill levels, you've still got the balancing problem. (I assume you're talking about something like Guild Wars where you pick from a subset of skills that are class, race, or other dilineator based.) I suppose you could have entirely flat power (i.e. you just choose a set of skills), but then it's about who's figured out the most synergistic, min/max set of skills for a particular role/combo and anyone who doesn't follow that pattern is either a savant (i.e. everyone else says this spec is better, but realistically this one is) or a moron (you're 7% less efficient than this cookie cutter build). You still have the dilineation. And you've removed the power accrual part of character advancement which is a pretty strong staple of RPGs. (Or shifted it to gear acquisition or the like.)

I still think the solution is sidekicking or the like. If I can run with my level 60 friends who will play with me because they're friends, then it doesn't matter how optimal or sub-optimal my build is, because I'm levelling up with a group of people (via sidekicking) who don't care.

[Charles]

No, I'm not talking about a guildwars system. I'm talking about a function list of skills, and a player would only get to pick a set amount.

For instance (and everything I design in my head is meant to fit in a cyberpunk setting):

Security (lock picking)
Computers (hacking)
Heavy Weapons
Light Weapons
Melee Weapons
Armor
Driving
Stealth
Explosives


Each player would pick three while starting his character... and those are the skills he has, and that is all he can do. And then, every mission or level or scenario or whatever, would require an application of more skills than any one person can have.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Originally Posted by Charles

Unicorn, HRose specifically said you'd have to skill up the roles. So you and he are now arguing different game designs.

Oops. How'd I miss that? If you have to skill up the roles, I think that blunts many of the aspects of the flexible class system that I see as advantages. It does, however, continue to allow you to keep your name and face while you experiment with different gameplay.

The "2% advantage" is an issue, there's no question about it. All things considered, I too favor a system that's not so structured around power levels and whatnot, no question about it. As to my example and subsequent discussion, though, I'm trying to focus on the sole idea of flexible classes, which I feel would improve existing MMOs or new games like them. It does not really address the 2% advantage, but that "scum rises to the top" stuff is a hard problem and this particular thing is not intended to solve it. Implemented without due care or other changes, it might well make it worse -- everyone running the numbers on each patch to calculate the optimum class for that iteration of values and never deviating from it. "Hey, newb, don't you know the archer is the best class this patch? Check out the forums you tard."

I like computer games -- math and follow-the-leader I'm not so big on.

Edit: I like the way your mind works, Charles -- mutually exclusive skill choices and cyberpunk. Two great tastes -- kick fucking ass in conjunction with each other.

[mouselock]

Originally Posted by Charles

Each player would pick three while starting his character... and those are the skills he has, and that is all he can do. And then, every mission or level or scenario or whatever, would require an application of more skills than any one person can have.

How do you plan on designing missions or levels or scenarios or what have you that don't require any specific subset of skills? Would suck to get halfway through and figure out that nobody had hacking or lockpicking and you couldn't go any farther. This is the same problem as class based issues that you don't like, isn't it?