Our Man in Japan -- Mythkiller 7

[Kitsune]

Our Man in Japan -- Mythkiller 7

You've heard of Japan, right? Where all the girls wear tight mini school skirts, have Hello Kitty fingernail polish, and carry a cute teddy bear while they run with their bleached hair to get crushed into a morning train, where they can be ejaculated upon by horny salarimen who read manga before they get off to be swallowed by an 80-story skyscraper and emerge at night to check into a love hotel after they're done saving Tokyo from Godzilla with their teenage mecha-piloting friends?

[JPR]

Forbidden!

Edit: Not anymore!

[Kunikos]

Holy fucking run on sentence, Batman! Let your inner grammatical nazi enter convulsions,... NOW

[Dean]

Dude, you've got to blow something up or drop a dummy from and incredible height or electrocute someone, and then you've got a show!

[Hump]

I find it difficult to put much stock in an article where a Japanese writer is going to be objective and put to rest negative myths about his own culture, partciularly "Xenophobia" (read; racism). Ask *most* any American serviceman who has spent a considerable amount of time there and you'll hear a much different story.

*[size=2]Please take note of this word before I get accused of making blanket statements.
[/size]

[pg]

So this column was just a response to various things posted in the forum? :lol: I can confirm one thing though - Japanese seem quite horrible overall at Quake, but then again maybe they just don't play it to otaku status. :wink:

[Wholly Schmidt]

Originally Posted by Hump

I find it difficult to put much stock in an article where a Japanese writer is going to be objective and put to rest negative myths about his own culture, partciularly "Xenophobia" (read; racism). Ask *most* any American serviceman who has spent a considerable amount of time there and you'll hear a much different story.

*[size=2]Please take note of this word before I get accused of making blanket statements.
[/size]

How is the American Serviceman's opinion any more objective?

"You're racist!"
"No I'm not!"
"Yes you are!"
"Crap, you must be objective!"

[zabuni]

Originally Posted by Hump

I find it difficult to put much stock in an article where a Japanese writer is going to be objective and put to rest negative myths about his own culture, partciularly "Xenophobia" (read; racism). Ask *most* any American serviceman who has spent a considerable amount of time there and you'll hear a much different story.

*[size=2]Please take note of this word before I get accused of making blanket statements.
[/size]

It might also be, as Kitsune mentioned, that it is because of the military base in Japan itself. As the article says:

Racism exists, of course, but it's almost entirely centered around other Asians. For example, I've been to California and noticed how some people gripe about Mexicans as if they were a plague. But I certainly don't think there's anything inherently xenophobic about Californians. It seems to me to be a function of geography rather than innate hatred of all things foreign.

I mean, can you imagine, if Japan, or any other foriegn country, or even the UN, had a military base in some part of the US, like Texas. And the uproar and downright hatred that would happen if a servicemen of that country raped a girl in the town. We'd have a lynch mob. And you'd here some pretty racist comments, especially from people like my grandfather, who was in the war.

[Hump]

Originally Posted by zabuni

It might also be, as Kitsune mentioned, that it is because of the military base in Japan itself.

so using that rationale if my neigbhorhood was being controlled by southeast asian gangs I'd be justified in having a racist, (oops, excuse me *xenophobic*) view? Sorry but being a White, middle-aged American male I'm not allowed this kind of slack by other races or, especially, the media (Dennis Miller had a great line in one of his stand up performances a few years back, that went: "I'm a white anglo-saxon american male, I'm everybody's asshole"). People can soften the blow by calling it a cultural affectation but if it walks like a duck etc.....

[Andrew Mayer]

Interesting article, but it's basically shooting fish in a barrel, since your stereotypes are, I think, myths about what Americans think are myths about the Japanese.

How about next time you let ask bunch of Americans about their opinions on the Japanese, and then refute those?

[scharmers]

somebody set us up the bomb

[ramsies]

Interesting article, almost sounds like the point of view of an American. Maybe it's because the English is so natural. I've taught English in Japan for 2 years running, and even the best students I taught had some idiosyncrasies that were a tip that they weren't native English speakers. Hats off, you obviously studied English well.

I happen to be starting a job at the end of Sep in Umeda, I'd like to meet up Kitsune, if possible. I'd love to tell my other friends that frequent the board here that I met the "man in Japan" :D

I hope it wouldn't be too much to ask but hook me up with a keitai #, or keitai email addy by PM.

Thanks in advance.

[zabuni]

Originally Posted by Hump

so using that rationale if my neigbhorhood was being controlled by southeast asian gangs I'd be justified in having a racist, (oops, excuse me *xenophobic*) view? Sorry but being a White, middle-aged American male I'm not allowed this kind of slack by other races or, especially, the media (Dennis Miller had a great line in one of his stand up performances a few years back, that went: "I'm a white anglo-saxon american male, I'm everybody's asshole"). People can soften the blow by calling it a cultural affectation but if it walks like a duck etc.....

I'm not saying it's justifiable; I'm saying that it is understandable why people in that area might be racist. It is the difference between an excuse and a reason. The perspective of a serviceman might be that all the Japanese they meet are racist, and that might be because they were a serviceman. It also doesn't mean that the whole of Japan is represented by people next to the military base in Okinawa, just as the whole of the US is not represented by towns in Alabama.

[TomChick]

Interesting article, almost sounds like the point of view of an American. Maybe it's because the English is so natural.

I think his editor gets part of the credit for that. Kitsune's English is good, but you should have seen the first draft. :)

As for whether the Japanese are racist, I don't think you can take the experience of servicemen stationed over there as an indicator. In any situation like that, military personnel are probably treated a certain way, regardless of their race. I think the experience of the average traveller would be much more indicative of whether the Japanese are, indeed, xenophobic.

-Tom

[Hump]

Originally Posted by TomChick

As for whether the Japanese are racist, I don't think you can take the experience of servicemen stationed over there as an indicator.

Why not? Keep in mind much of this behavior is experienced while on leave and visiting the "real" Japan (read; dressed in civilian clothing). Just for argument sake and pretending we never read about this issue in traveler's blogs and countless other publications (albeit with authors using the forgiving "it's a cultural anomaly" angle) I did a 60 second Google search and came up with this this and this.

I apologize to Kitsune if I sound like I'm picking on him in particular, I'm not. It's just seems that everytime I read similar pieces the authors usually paint it in a "we're misunderstood" light when, IMO, its a cop-out for ignorant behavior on a national level.

[TomChick]

Why not?

Did you not read zabuni's posts? I thought he made it pretty clear.

If you want to broaden your sources, that's fine. In fact, that was kind of the point. In your initial post, you implied that all you had to do to understand that the Japanese are racist is "ask your typical American serviceman".

As for me, I have no idea whether the Japanese are xenophobic or not. I'm just saying that the experience of a soldier stationed abroad on foreign soil isn't a comprehensive look at a country's national character.

-Tom

[Matthew Gallant]

Good god, half the people living around American Army bases don't like U.S. soldiers. It doesn't mean anything.

[Hump]

Originally Posted by TomChick

Did you not read zabuni's posts? I thought he made it pretty clear.

If you want to broaden your sources, that's fine. In fact, that was kind of the point. In your initial post, you implied that all you had to do to understand that the Japanese are racist is "ask your typical American serviceman".

-Tom

You guys picked up on the U.S. servicemen as perhaps not having an objective viewpoint. I disputed that it was a major reason. I then provided links to civilian cases and requalified my stance, thats all.

[JFeil]

I'd like to see the seven biggest myths the Japanese have about American gamers. Or even ten myths. Possibly up to twelve. But no more than that.

[TomChick]

I then provided links to civilian cases and requalified my stance, thats all.

So your "60 seconds of Googling", as you put it, demonstrate that the Japanese are racist?

I don't think anyone's disputing that some people think the Japanese are racist. The point is that we have someone from Japan saying that they're not. So maybe one day his opinion will show up when you quickly Google to decide whether everyone in Japan hates everyone who isn't from Japan. :)

-Tom

[Hump]

Originally Posted by TomChick

So your "60 seconds of Googling", as you put it, demonstrate that the Japanese are racist?

-Tom

you know damn well what point I'm trying to make Tom. Don't reduce my points into blanket statements.

Anyway, I'll shut up now :roll:

[Mike Cathcart]

Originally Posted by Hump

you know damn well what point I'm trying to make Tom. Don't reduce my points into blanket statements.

I read the entire thread and I'm not sure what point you're trying to make other than you don't even seem too sure about what point you're trying to make. Are we supposed to ask any US servicemen or just the undercover ones in civilian clothing? And if that's the case why does it matter if they're servicemen? Or do we just ask the ones who write for NPR?

I spent 60 seconds on google and found out that the holocaust never happened, nobody landed on the moon and god created the world a few thousand years ago and planted dinosaur bones just to mess with us.

[Hump]

Originally Posted by Mike Cathcart

I read the entire thread and I'm not sure what point you're trying to make other than you don't even seem too sure about what point you're trying to make. Are we supposed to ask any US servicemen or just the undercover ones in civilian clothing?

Please go back and read the thread again. I took issue with Kitune's piece, as well as other writers who do similar articles in which they attempt to debunk myths about Japanese "xenophobia". I stated that I have a hard time beleiving they (Japanese writers) can be objective on the issue. I then stated that American servicemen would have a more realistic view seeing that many are on the receiving end of it.

And if that's the case why does it matter if they're servicemen?

I thought it was obvious but just so we're clear, I used them as an example because American military bases *probably* have the largest concentration of westerners in Japan. I know several who have served there and all had accounts of how they were treated both in uniform and out.

Or do we just ask the ones who write for NPR?

Was the writer of the NPR piece an American serviceman? Maybe I missed that.

I spent 60 seconds on google and found out that the holocaust never happened, nobody landed on the moon and god created the world a few thousand years ago and planted dinosaur bones just to mess with us.

*Sigh* Zabuni took issue with using an American base and its surrounding area and Tom wrote "I think the experience of the average traveller would be much more indicative of whether the Japanese are, indeed, xenophobic" so I then provided some links to civilian accounts. Insofar as using Google, what am I supposed to do, mail you notarized affidavits?

Again I don't want to turn this into a debate thread so I'll shut up.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Originally Posted by Hump

Please go back and read the thread again. I took issue with Kitune's piece, as well as other writers who do similar articles in which they attempt to debunk myths about Japanese "xenophobia". I stated that I have a hard time beleiving they (Japanese writers) can be objective on the issue. I then stated that American servicemen would have a more realistic view seeing that many are on the receiving end of it.

Emphasis mine, obviously, but this is the part that I still don't get. If anything, someone on the receiving end would seem less objective to me, and certainly no more objective than anyone else. I don't understand the leap here, that somehow being on the receiving end of some xenophobia makes you more qualified to say that most Japanese are xenophobes?

[Marsh Davies]

Hump - not getting at you here but why do you keep putting inverted commas around the word xenophobia? I'm not sure what you are trying to intimate.

[Matthew Gallant]

Again, lots of the people that live around American military bases have a negative attitude towards American servicemen, so either they're secretly Japanese or you're being a big dummy, Hump.

[Moore]

Originally Posted by Matthew Gallant

Again, lots of the people that live around American military bases have a negative attitude towards American servicemen, so either they're secretly Japanese or you're being a big dummy, Hump.

I can see that, it's one reason I won't live in San Diego. It's kind of like super-frat-town sometimes.

[Joe O'Malley]

Well, this forum has managed to distill the entirety of the article to an arguement over the racism of the Japanese. Logic or no, it would appear to be a point people have strong views regarding. And also a point where people here have a hard time accepting the opinions of others.

So, can we talk about something else now? Kitsune's article touched on a topic that also came up in the Penny Arcade rant a day or two ago. They pointed out that hardcore gamers weren't desired by game companies any more. Not just not needed, mind you, but not desired. They have developed a geek stigma about them, and to have a game associated with them might actually hurt mainstream performance. Now tht games have finally broken into mainstream awareness and culture in a fundamental way, the corporations can finally just tailor to the masses, rather than the more exacting standards of the hardcores. Kitsune indicates that the hardcores in Japan are considered rude at best, and pariah in the purest (if unbathed and catassing a MMORPG count as pure) form. They seem to have gone from geek to outcast in just a couple years.

Any thoughts?

[zabuni]

Call it flight simmmers' curse. :D

I don't know if they were ever that accepted, but I would think it would be an example of "Give them an inch, and they will go a mile". It's not enough to have fanservice in a part of the game, the entire game has to consist of it, etc. etc. If one part isn't up to snuff, then screw it!

That, and there is the pure monetary reason. Nintendo, amound others, is actively gunning for the casual, as there are just so many of them, aren't as sensitive to some things.

[Joe O'Malley]

The games are easier to make as well, I would think. casual gamers don't go nearly as deep when it comes to feature sets and exploits as hardcores, so don't need as many features. They just need a core set of features, done in an addicitive way.

I wonder if this will lead to more emphasis on storytelling as the games move more towards being interactive movies?