Our Man in Japan -- War of the Samurai

[Kitsune]

Our Man in Japan -- War of the Samurai

"This guy are sick!"

[Brian Rucker]

I wonder what you thought of the military themes in Ring of Red. It was quite distinct how the side you were fighting on seemed to be the Imperial side and the mecha (or whatever they called them) and uniform designs looked Wehrmact inspired.

[Kunikos]

http://www.quartertothree.com/inhous...98/Gundam.html

I think that right there dispells your myth that Japanese don't like military themed games. Gundam is about as close as you're going to get of a modern popular franchise that revolves around battling military forces, with the main characters being teenagers with shadowy pasts fighting for their patriotic ideals.

The fact of the matter is that your country is just still sore over getting nuked in WW2 and being a puppet of the US for years afterwards.

[Cool Breeze]

It's also worth mentioning that the best selling game in Japan a few month's ago was Medal of Honor: Rising Sun, because as this proves there's absolutely nothing like killing your ancestors.

[TomChick]

Umm, Kunikos, did you read the part where he brought up Gundam? The point seems to be that Japan has flirted with militarism, influenced first by American trends, then giving way to German influence.

Originally Posted by Kunikos

The fact of the matter is that your country is just still sore over getting nuked in WW2 and being a puppet of the US for years afterwards.

Nice. Way to elevate the discussion.

-Tom

[TomChick]

Originally Posted by Cool Breeze

It's also worth mentioning that the best selling game in Japan a few month's ago was Medal of Honor: Rising Sun

Yes, which is probably why Kitsune mentioned it.

Do you guys even read the articles, or are you just clicking the links for the pictures?

-Tom

[MattKeil]

Originally Posted by Cool Breeze

It's also worth mentioning that the best selling game in Japan a few month's ago was Medal of Honor: Rising Sun, because as this proves there's absolutely nothing like killing your ancestors.

I know I'm still waiting for an Irish Potato Famine sim.

[Anaxagoras]

I've got two questions, if Kitsune would be kind enough to answer them.

1) In your article, you say "The image that dominates my mind is the "fight for my country" style of loyalty, the military honor of belonging to a group." As I understand it, this kind on honour was extremely common during World War II. What happened? Did the US successfully convince you that this was a bad idea during our post WWII occupation, like we did for Germany? Or did your countrymen decide on their own that "the military honour of belonging to a group" was a bad idea?

2) Were the progenitors of the Meiji Restoration of the Yamato clan? (Perhaps "mindset" would be a better word than "clan"?) My impression from history is that they weren't... they seemed to be genuine peace lovers (despite the Russo-Japanese War) who thought Japan needed to modernize. If they weren't of the Yamato clan, how did the Yamato clan gain political influence and begin the military expansion of the early '30s?

edit- Oh, and one other thing. That was a really interesting and informative article. Thanks a lot for writing it. I don't know if my two cents are worth anything on this, but that's exactly the kind of stuff I'd love to read.

[malphigian]

Fascinating article. More man in Japan! I hope you're gonna hit all the items in your poll at some point.

ps. Kunikos don't be a jackass.

[Silverlight]

Great work, Kitsune.

[Kunikos]

http://www.gamespot.com/gamecube/act...s_6084198.html

As one gamer put it, "You know, even though it's just a game, those are our fathers and relatives we're killing. There's something about it that I just don't like." Another wondered how a game like this would be received in other countries, saying, "...this is a game in which you play as a foreign soldier and try to kill troops from your own country. I bet that you couldn't even sell a game like this overseas. I have a feeling that Japanese are the only people who would brush this off because 'it's only a game.' I don't know if that's good or bad..."

SOCOM II is ranked 28 according to Degenki Online.
http://www.dengekionline.com/soft/ranking/ranking.htm

As far as games being made in Japan regarding to military themes, it still seems to me that games are only created to either extend anime or manga franchises or to create or perpetuate new anime-styled franchises. Since anime is generally targetted at a younger audience real critical thought and especially commentary on things political is generally never seen, especially if they are to be an allegory to something contemporary and modern. You will never see a game created that simulates the creation of "Comfort Houses" during World War II in which Japanese forced Korean, Filipino, Chinese, and others to work as prostitutes for the Japanese army (and frankly neither will you see one about Hawaiian whore houses endorsed by the American military).

Also, if you would like to read more about how the American occupation of Japan has affected its cultural development you can read this lengthy article speaking on the book, "Mr. Smith Goes to Tokyo," which talks about the film making before, during, and after the periods of the war build-up, subsequent occupation, and aftermath.

http://www.midnighteye.com/books/mr-...to-tokyo.shtml

Also, for more information regarding the atrocities committed by the Japanese war-time government against their own people:

http://www.midnighteye.com/reviews/japdevil.shtml

It is still, then, of my opinion that the country still suffers from a similar mindset as the German nation towards their country's military history. Most people would rather forget about it entirely, and while I am aware of how the German government has gone so far as to ban the Swastika from video game products (among other things) I am not aware of anything that has occurred in Japan. It would seem then, that at least Japan's government has stayed out of controlling or creating a mindset of revisionist history, with respect to games.

It is interesting to note that the most popular war strategy game in video game history in Japan is the Romance of Three Kingdoms series, and it not only takes place in another country but in an almost ancient historical period. I cannot think of any Japanese game that is not a fantasy or alternate reality setting that occurs during roughly the same time period in Japan, nor of any game that lets you invade China, Korea, or surrounding islands during that or any other time period in which it historically took place. In essense, what you have is a cultural black-out for the issues.

Obviously America is not without reproach, as their treatment of many different armed conflicts has been nationalistic and propaganda at best. Contra was supposed to be based as fighting the communists in the jungles of Nicaragua, and Desert Storm games highlight bombing Iraqi installations without talking about the massive conventional bombing campaigns that occurred (under 10% of bombs used were so-called smart bombs) nor the spectacular failure rate of Patriot missile systems (and how they often simply rained down shrapnel onto the city inhabitants below). World War II games are often chosen simply as the "glory" campaigns of choice, since the enemies were easily demonized for their very real acts of genocide and torture. Until recently, Vietnam was not a war often delt with in any real sense and the newer games are now finally speaking of the issues with any sense of historical accuracy (other than making the weapons and vehicles "realistic").

[Alan Au]

Kitsune, I enjoyed reading the article.

Hey Kunikos, maybe you can do a counterpoint. I dunno, maybe call it "Our Man Not In Japan" and focus on the American portrayal of the Japanese. *shrug*

- Alan

[MattKeil]

Kunikos has some valid points. When I was in Japan last year, I marveled at the Medal of Honor: Rising Sun display at TGS, complete with Japanese actor dressed as a US Marine. I asked our sound guy, a native Japanese man in his 50s, how they could sell a game in which you were essentially running around shooting polygonal representations of what could be your grandfather. He replied that it "just doesn't matter to most Japanese," and that "to most Japanese, that war is like something that happened to someone else, not Japan."

He went on to note that the Japanese release of Pearl Harbor was met with much curiosity, as the under-30 audience largely had no idea what Pearl Harbor was.

Of course, this is not in any way a phenomenon peculiar to Japan. American history books are just as guilty of covering up the stuff we'd rather not know our country did in the past. What percentage of average Americans know what we did to the Phillipines in the late 19th/early 20th century? Scary stuff. Makes the Iraqi prisoner scandal look like a schoolkid being rapped on the knuckles with a ruler.

Americans and American games/movies/etc. are much more comfortable portraying "realistic" military themes, though. Perhaps because we've had some nice high-profile righteous-minded military successes since our atrocities in various island nations. Japan hasn't had the luxury of "redemption" in that manner, so the out-of-sight-out-of-mind mentality is perhaps to be expected.

Then again, perhaps learning history from a Ben Affleck movie is the greatest atrocity of all.

[TomChick]

How someone derails a thread:

Originally Posted by Kunikos

The fact of the matter is that your country is just still sore over getting nuked in WW2 and being a puppet of the US for years afterwards.

How someone contributes to a thread:

Originally Posted by Kunikos

It is still, then, of my opinion that the country still suffers from a similar mindset as the German nation towards their country's military history.

I'm not sure how this contradicts Kitsune, however. He's addressing the issue from his own perspective as a gamer in Japan. You're analyzing it as if you were teaching an undergraduate class in post-war studies. :)

-Tom

[Kunikos]

Originally Posted by TomChick

I'm not sure how this contradicts Kitsune, however. He's addressing the issue from his own perspective as a gamer in Japan. You're analyzing it as if you were teaching an undergraduate class in post-war studies. :)

I wasn't trying to specifically contradict him, only to further elaborate on my one-liner. I thought it would give additional insight into why the specific situation might exist in a country with Japan's type of history and how this parallels Germany in a few key ways. Japan is just fortunate that they didn't have to endure a Communist occupation in half of their country like Germany did.

[Kevin Grey]

Originally Posted by Kunikos

I wasn't trying to specifically contradict him, only to further elaborate on my one-liner. I thought it would give additional insight into why the specific situation might exist in a country with Japan's type of history and how this parallels Germany in a few key ways. Japan is just fortunate that they didn't have to endure a Communist occupation in half of their country like Germany did.

Then why couldn't you have posted that in the first place? Your first comment seemed like a pretty blatent troll.

[Robert Sharp]

The Medal of Honor question is interesting, but the same thing happens here in the U.S. We play Battlefield (1942 or vietnam) and kill Americans, Brits, whoever. But we still claim to admire the guys who fought in those wars. I don't really see a contradiction in this. It's a game, and you are roleplaying. It's very different from having an urge to go back in time and literally kill your own people.

Besides, let's face it: people are people. This distinction between "us" and "them" is a form of egoism. When we kill enemies in Unreal we don't take time to see if they look American.

[Kunikos]

Originally Posted by Robert Sharp

The Medal of Honor question is interesting, but the same thing happens here in the U.S. We play Battlefield (1942 or vietnam) and kill Americans, Brits, whoever. But we still claim to admire the guys who fought in those wars. I don't really see a contradiction in this. It's a game, and you are roleplaying. It's very different from having an urge to go back in time and literally kill your own people.

You seem to be missing the point. The American forces aren't the "enemies" in the situation, and aren't demonized in the literature that is integrated into or accompanies the game. Medal of Honor has a clear single-player campaign that fully illustrates this point. BF1942 doesn't offer as much in this respect since it is meant to be a multiplayer game and as such waste any resources either explaining or defining the historical contexts behind any conflicts. Battlefield Vietnam at least gives some information, such as during briefings, but outside of the propaganda loudspeakers on some levels you don't really encounter much else.

[Kunikos]

Originally Posted by Kevin Grey

Then why couldn't you have posted that in the first place? Your first comment seemed like a pretty blatent troll.

Since when are opinions considered trolling? I believe that is the case, and when called to do so I offered supporting evidence.

Also, the game-playing public may not be old enough to know about those historic events surrounding Pearl Harbor or the nuclear bombing of Japan, but there sure as heck are people that old running the game publishing and game console companies.

[Kunikos]

Well, that and the kids screaming and yelling all day next door and the Indian family across the hall screaming and yelling all night in Hindi has made me very crotchety.

[Kunikos]

In this summer's Psi-Ops, a stand-out action title, I find myself thinking, "Ops? Does that mean I'm considered part of some military? Man, I hope not."

Yes, recently a Psi-Ops game developer gave an interview with G4TechTV's Pulse show and said that Psi-Ops is an actual group (albiet I think that is the slang name) within the American military that handles the development of "Remote Viewing" and other paranormal abilities in candidates, among other things. You are in the role of a military man in the service of their country trying to bring down a group of escaped Psi-Ops candidates who have become terrorists, etc, etc.

American video games often use military themes because it gives a justification for science fiction aspects of technology (because we all know about how the jet program developed, and how Area-51 and Skunkworks projects are still active). You can also blame run-away military budgets all throughout the Cold War, and where developing biological weapons in the United States went on even for years after the fall of Eastern Germany and Soviet Russia. Many Americans can then find it plausible to suspect that the government is developing horrible new powerful weapons, and similar to their tests in the Bikini Islands are busy trying to bear these to fruition despite the cost to human life.

[Kunikos]

Originally Posted by MattKeil

Then again, perhaps learning history from a Ben Affleck movie is the greatest atrocity of all.

Sorry, I neglected earlier to applaud you on this point! :D

[TheWombat]

What percentage of average Americans know what we did to the Phillipines in the late 19th/early 20th century?

Dunno about the percentages but most college-level history texts do deal with the Philippine insurrection and the American response. Certainly we cover that in my classes. As for High School history, well, from what I can tell of students I see at the college level, they don't learn anything at all in High School history.

[Derek Meister]

Originally Posted by Kunikos

Yes, recently a Psi-Ops game developer gave an interview with G4TechTV's Pulse show and said that Psi-Ops is an actual group (albiet I think that is the slang name) within the American military that handles the development of "Remote Viewing" and other paranormal abilities in candidates, among other things.

There actually was such a program, a joint venture between the US Army and the CIA, which involved using psychics for such operations as trying to locate Gadhafi of Libya (so our Air Force could drop bombs on him) and the locating of a missing airplane in Africa.

The program was called "Stargate", of all things.

Obviously the program was a pretty useless waste of money and was shut down.

... or so they want you to believe </art bell>

[Dirt]

Japan should never be allowed a military. Ever.

[Derek Meister]

But who would protect Japan by inneffectively firing thousands of tank shells and rockets at Godzilla, if not the Japanese Defense Force?

[XPav]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Japan should never be allowed a military. Ever.

Corollary: The US has to garrison Japan and protect it from external threats forever.

[Nick Walter]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Japan should never be allowed a military. Ever.

That sort of thinking (in regards to Germany) after WWI led to . . . WWII.

Just Saying.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by XPav

Corollary: The US has to garrison Japan and protect it from external threats forever.

The price of occupation. Wonder how long we'll be in Iraq?

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Nick Walter

That sort of thinking (in regards to Germany) after WWI led to . . . WWII.

Just Saying.

Germany didn't have China keeping an eye on it.