Our Man in Japan -- MegaTen and Tokyo

[TomChick]

Our Man in Japan -- MegaTen and Tokyo

Our man in Japan, Kitsune, moves beyond the pee cup for the first in his series of columns on gaming in Japan. Ever wondered just what the hell is going on over there in that country where they do stuff like, umm, make Nintendos and draw children with enormous eyes? Kitsune, who actually lives there, will share his first-hand experience.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Nice job, Kitsune. Interesting stuff.

Troy

[balut]

That was great! Thanks, Kitsune, and thanks to the Tom/Mark Entity for giving him the column. Kitsune's writings are always interesting, and I find myself endlessly fascinated by his descriptions of life in Japan. Good stuff, I hope to read more of these in the future.
:)

[Ben]

Yeah, Kitsune is consistently engaging and interesting in his posts, and I look forward to more. Still, he needs an editor. Not for the length, which I whole-heartedly endorse, but he has a tendency to lose his train of thought and ramble.

[Kevin Grey]

Great article. I hope this helps Kitsune get some more attention for his excellent insight. He really needs to be writing for a major publication.

Concerning SMT: Nocturne- this has gone from a game I hadn't even heard of a month or two ago to one of my most anticipated this year. From Kitsune's article:

If we're going to talk about Shin Megami Tensei, it would be nice to understand what the words actually mean. It's not surprising that Atlus didn't attempt to translate the title for America, as the name is rather involved.

I will say that I think Atlus is making a mistake in keeping the Shin Megami Tensei part of the title. I think it will make the game seem inaccessible to many potential purchasers. I was talking about various games with the manager of my local Gamestop earlier this week and he brought it up but had difficulty pronouncing the name- he actually looked relived when I said "Oh yeah- Nocturne." Maybe Atlus could have just abbreviated it "SMT: Nocturne" or something to that effect.

[Bwah]

Originally Posted by Kevin Grey

I will say that I think Atlus is making a mistake in keeping the Shin Megami Tensei part of the title. I think it will make the game seem inaccessible to many potential purchasers. I was talking about various games with the manager of my local Gamestop earlier this week and he brought it up but had difficulty pronouncing the name- he actually looked relived when I said "Oh yeah- Nocturne." Maybe Atlus could have just abbreviated it "SMT: Nocturne" or something to that effect.

I'm just guessing here but maybe they are planning on releasing more games in the Shin Megami Tensei series eventually and they are trying to build a brand name?
Also, SMT doesn't sound as good as Shin Megami Tensei to me, but then again, I'm probably pronouncing it entirely differently from you.

Other than that good read, I enjoyed it.

[Theodore Rex DX]

I like Ultimate Muscle.

[olaf]

Generally I find your posts too wordy, and so I dont often read them in their entirety. Also, when I see your handle I tend to think of a Japanese teen about to quaff a steaming cup of piss. Which has an unsettling effect on me. In this particular case though, I found myself feeling the article ended abruptly...which was a shocker. I was hoping for more on the actual gameplay. The game does look interesting. The first I had heard about it was your thread about it a week or so back.

Anyway, and I know people have mentioned this before about you but damn, I have to say it blows my mind you can write in English as well as you can. I cant imagine *anyone* would guess English is a second language for you, whereas most non-native speakers with a voice on the net are revealed in the first paragraph, or even sentence, of whatever it is they have written.

How long have you been speaking English and how did you learn it? How frequent do you speak and write it?

olaf

[Thomas Wilde]

...nice post, olaf. Very... strange. And possibly psychologically revealing.

Kitsune, interesting column.

[Nathan Phoenix]

Outstanding article Kitsune! Always interesting to read about other cultures like that.

FYI Tom/Mark entity, the picture links on the last page don't work.

[olaf]

Originally Posted by Thomas Wilde

...nice post, olaf. Very... strange. And possibly psychologically revealing.

Kitsune, interesting column.

Yeah I guess it does sound weird. Particularly if you missed the post that is resonsible for my unfortunate association. Maybe Kitsune can rehash for us, but I dont want to.

olaf

[Brian Rucker]

Really interesting stuff. And if it can seem a bit rambling at times I don't mind much. This aspect of Japanse culture and gaming's a bit of an excursion for me so if the style adopts a bit of kerouacian meandering it fits the experience for me just fine. I'd rather not miss a stray thought that might just add some context I need.

Good work. If you're not a professional writer yet, you should be Kitsune.

[Kitsune]

Thanks for the compliments, everyone, I'm glad I managed to produce something you guys might be interested in hearing about. ^_^

Originally Posted by olaf

How long have you been speaking English and how did you learn it? How frequent do you speak and write it?

olaf

I've been learning English since I was 8 years old. Speaking it? I don't really know. I've had a tutor on top of school for longs periods of time too. Also, a lot of Japanese get extra classes after school in juku, and a very popular extra class is English. That and I also lived in the US for a little while.

I usually just write it for this board, a couple of people I communicate via e-mail. I hardly ever speak English because the only friend I know who would lean toward English over here wants me to speak in Japanese to help him learn the language, though sometimes we'll speak in English if things are getting crazy. :P When I take trips to the US to see my sister, I guess I speak more there. But I don't think I'm very fluent.

Also, I had a lot of help with these article. Tom was great about it! :)

In any case, the reason I didn't go in-depth further about Nocturne, is because I honestly didn't know where to start and I figured this introduction would be a good place to begin. I plan on returning to it this summer before Nocturne releases, but in such a multi-faceted game, I could never introduce all the basics unless you wanted to read 20 pages worth of material. :P

What did you want to hear about? The ranking and status system among the demons? How demon negotiation works? About the Wicked Manor and the Kagutsuchi (the black sun in the middle of the world)? The alignments and their effect on how you decide to remake the world? The battle system? The demon hunters? The Amara Network/Deep Zone hacking nodes of travel? The Magatama?

Also note that Atlus DOES intend to release another Shin Megami Tensei game two months after Nocturne, in Digital Devil Saga. It just released over here. I get the feeling this next game is aiming for something different though, so I'm not planning on buying it until I hear more about it.

-Kitsune

[Squirrel Killer]

Are we ever going to let Kitsune live down one paragraph of a post that he edited out like five minutes after he posted it, or should I just install the "Kitsune Pee" Firefox extention and mouse gesture macro insert the jokes?

[quatoria]

Originally Posted by Squirrel Killer

Are we ever going to let Kitsune live down one paragraph of a post that he edited out like five minutes after he posted it, or should I just install the "Kitsune Pee" Firefox extention and mouse gesture macro insert the jokes?

Seriously. Let it rest already. Put down the pee pee cup. And while I'm sure it's meant as a compliment, saying "wow, you speak english real good!" Always comes across as awfully patronizing, to me. Particularly considering how damned long Kitsune has been here.

[Theodore Rex DX]

Yes. And why tease him about drinking pee when you can tease him for making snotty remarks about Ultimate Muscle?

[olaf]

Hmm well I just was expecting more about the gameplay in general. The specific things you asked if I would like to know more about in your post, I am not familiar with at all. I read a Gamespot preview, and that piece, your article and thread are the extent of my knowledge of the game. Its not a big deal though, getting all inside of a game before its released leads me to disappointment more commonly than anyplace else.

Also I wasnt trying to be patronizing with regards to the English stuff. It was meant as a compliment and I hope it was taken as such. Maybe its me and my limited experience with polyglots, but someone writing as fluently as you do in a second language is not common. Speaking a second language conversationally is one thing, writing is much tougher IMO.

olaf

[BDGE]

Glad to hear you will return later on to delve deeper into the actual game because I was really surpised when this article ended, I almost wondered if the next page link was somehow not popping up! A rather enticing introduction piece, but as Olaf mentions unfortunately not very revealing in terms of pure game commentary, which I sort of wanted myself.

Some of the factual associations were nice, made even more appreciable to someone like me that has actually visited and spent time in each of those districts of Japan and Tokyo personnally; it makes me a bit more excited to delve into the mythos of this game...but again I feel really disconnected or uncertain as to what that will entail.

I do get the vague idea we have a brooding Pokemon-esque adventure that replaces cuddly plushies with demonic iconogrophy. I also know you have this uncanny need to demoralize some of the competition to help shatter certain expectations(a tactic I usually can't stand in descriptive writing) but in this case, it may have been for our benefit to help describe some truths behind the design of this game...but were left entirely unexplained.

Again a good introduction that I would almost recommend just tacking right on to the next addition to the article. I am -not- knocking the article, it is more than just bloated hype, but one should walk away from a preview with more concrete information about the game under inspection. It just seemed really incomplete.

[Jim Preston]

I've been lucky enough to visit Tokyo a couple of times, so the dissection of the city was interesting as I could put memories to some of the names. But the paragraph on how the "soul" of a city is reflected in the games of Nintendo, Sega and Square-Enix was particularly fascinating and should have been longer than a paragraph, while other sections on the game itself could probably have been shorter.

Just my first take away. Otherwise, a great read.

[zabuni]

Linked to from Slashdot's games department:

http://games.slashdot.org/games/04/0...id=186&tid=212

[Rob O'Boston]

Originally Posted by Jim Preston

I've been lucky enough to visit Tokyo a couple of times, so the dissection of the city was interesting as I could put memories to some of the names. But the paragraph on how the "soul" of a city is reflected in the games of Nintendo, Sega and Square-Enix was particularly fascinating and should have been longer than a paragraph, while other sections on the game itself could probably have been shorter.

Just my first take away. Otherwise, a great read.

I thought the discussion of the way the games were tied to the home city of the game developer were fascinating as well. Nice work Kitsune! These types of games aren't my cup of tea, but you have captured my attention on this Nocturne game.

[Dirt]

Is it me or, once again, there was much hype for Nocturne with absolutely no elaboration on gameplay?

[Thomas Wilde]

I'd be happy to tell you more about Nocturne and back Kitsune up, but sadly, I can't.

Curse thee, non-disclosure agreement. From hell's heart, I stab at thee.

[pg]

interesting article, but i have to mirror some of the comments above. i was really thinking there was at least going to be another page at the end summarizing the gameplay. :( it does have good gameplay doesn't it? or is all the culture significance enough to sell games over in japan?

[Kitsune]

It does have good gameplay. Its just so reliant on cultural mores, I couldn't figure out where to begin. But thank you for the feedback, I'll take that into account next time. Jim Preston mentioned the cities and hometown element I touched on in the article -- don't get me wrong, this will appear again and again in the articles if Tom doesn't mind, as I believe it has a strong influence on many aspects of game design, but I didn't want to go too far outside just talking about MegaTen this time.

Here then, for people who wanted more info on the gameplay are some details I've cut out of the second part of the report, for space concerns, its in a part which explains how the interaction of the mythology and the modern day society have a bearing on gameplay:

"Let me take the camera I've used to analyze to the MegaTen games and give you a snapshot of the streamlined system Nocturne might use. Say you've just run into Maenads and they're depicted in the MegaTen style: serious-looking chicks standing on an ionic colum, with a smirk on their face as if they are about to dance. Their hair is festooned with ivy leaves, as is the pine-cone scepter they carry in one hand. They have shockingly bright and contrasting eyeliner on, as well as sparkles decorated around their eyes, a pacifier and a purse slinging on one hand. In fact, if it wasn't for the Shinto priestess garb you might think she actually resembles a raver girl. She talks like one too and everytime she moves, it seems like its to the tune of a beat as she swings her hips suggestively.

You've decided to talk to her (you are really sick of her dances, which tend to make you lose control of your team). First you have to decide who is going to talk to her and what you want from her. Do you want her to join your side, or do you want an object from her, perhaps something she has that you can use to negotiate with someone else? Your named protagonist isn't the best negotiator in battle-- most of the time its best to recruit some Romans and leave them to do as they would in Rome, when it comes to the world of demon interaction. In previous MegaTen games, your demon summoning would be linked to a computer and limited, you needed a special substance to call them into the world and you couldn't always access them. In Nocturne, you can swap out demons any time in battle and you need that substance, though there are of course, certain rules that apply.

So you decide, based on who the Maenad is, to bring a Valkyrie and a Dominion. The Dominion is one of the lower ranks of Christian angels, responsible for spreading the word. You've brought him for two reasons: first, within the demon rankings he is considered neutral rather than light, and so is the Maenad, in addition, he is an adult and she is considered a youth, so if he tries to use the skill "recruit" the effect will lean towards the positive, as those the traits that tend to influence that conversational skill.

On the other hand, the Maenad, is a yoma, a neutral alignment fairy in the MegaTen mythos, but not just any yoma, her ranking is also a kind of pun. In Shinto terminology, the magagoto is the twisted and the distorted and the makoto is the true and straight; Shinto does not conceive of the traditional good and evil. Yomi, however, is considered part of the netherworld and a Maenad would take part in that since she twists something "true." What is it she's twisting, you ask? Why the Shinto harvest festivals celebrated with rice wine! A Maenad is a Greek follower of the god of wine, Dionysus, and gives herself up to frequent orgies and the ripping and devouring animals raw. Shinto priests, especially women, are supposed to be "pure" and Shinto is intricately linked with Buddhism, some tenets of which, advise you to be kind and not hurt animals. So this Yomi kind of Yoma and your Dominion might clash, all religious and mythological references compared. Indeed, if you were to talk to her with a Shrine Maiden, surely the two would start fighting because of an ideological clash. That's why you may not want to go with the Valkyrie, who all differences in mythologies aside, kind of resembles the Shrine Maiden, and to boot she is also a young female and though she has recruit, it works better with an adult to a youth.

Thus, the conception of demon ranking can be very important in planning your conversations. But now that we've got past the planning stages, let's go on to what actually happens. If your conversational skill doesn't outright succeed or fail, the demon will ask you for something, whether it be makka [the MegaTen demon currency] or an item you might have. If your Dominion had the bargain skill, he could interject even if he wasn't the one negotiating, and so could the other demons with the bargain skill, in an effort to lower the price. To give you an idea of how this might play out in visual terms and the aesthetic traits of MegaTen, your Dominion has beautiful white wings and wears a golden helmet, he's dressed in a business suit though (a ratty one, since he's a lower-ranking angel) and has a cellphone. When he tries to recruit the Maenad, he goes up and says, "Here's my card, with it you can contact my employer, who is always searching for new employees; He saves lives you know, nice Hebrew guy, a carpenter!" And he gives her the Bible. Now, she might think this is uptight or maybe just a total riot, and so she makes a proposal, "Hey, pops, how about lending me 9000 makka for a night on the town?" But because even the haggled down price of 6800 makka is too high for your blood, you decline. Now she considers your offer, if everything you've banked on out turns out well, she might accept. The game will tell you whether you've made positive or negative impressions and the animations will reinforce it. If it turns out badly, she might stop talking, get angry and leave, or get angry and start fighting immediately, in which you lose your turn. But you're alright, you've planned ahead. The enemies use Hama attacks and your team can reflect those attacks. So if you were feeling extremely devious you could intentionally anger demons in order to reflect back their own attacks on them without you having to budge.

Another reason you might want to do this is because of the press turn system. The press turn system is what negotiates actions taken in battle. It is not a turn-based battle system. You do not enter all your commands and then battle is resolved with enemies and allies acting. Rather in normal battles, all allies act first, then all enemies. For each ally or enemy, they get one symbol in the corner of the screen with which to act. It might sound like one character equals one action, but that's a deception that isn't true. Say you have four allies in combat and thus four press turns. You use an attack that the enemy is naturally protected against. Because of your ignorant attack, you've lost two press turns, rather than one. Thus, if those demons attack you with elements yours can protect against, you might actually make them lose initiative and let you gain some bonus action. This small snippet gives you an idea, but there's even more to it than this.

But let's go back to our Maenad. Let's say you try to talk to her again even though she's angry. Eventually, she asks you, "These demons are easily manipulated and lose control, don't you think?" Even if you think she's right, perhaps you shouldn't answer yes. It might be a good idea though, because there's an element of randomness here. Is she the kind of Maenad who wants to give up her ways, or is she the kind of Maenad who will never give them up? In time, you'll learn how to intuit this kind of craziness. But even before she asks this question, maybe you approach her with that Valkyrie this time and use a dying contract for other reasons. Or maybe another demon in the Maenads' party interrupts you and they all attack. Or maybe you didn't want her to join your side and just wanted her to lend you some money, so you ask to borrow some. Be careful some demons expect that money back and will return to lay the smack down on you should you not repay. Or maybe you're talking to a stupid demon, who isn't sly enough to ask you such questions, or maybe you've been harsh and beaten all her friends first, and you are about to finish her off -- what you are hoping to do is intimidate her into begging for her life. But you can be merciful, you need not force her to join you, or give you information, or all her money in that case. Be careful! She may not be merciful and will betray your confidence and get in a free turn should you say, "No, that's okay."

In an example of the open-ended nature of the game, should you know the intimate mythologies of your party, you can even cause special storyline interactions. You're not required to, however and the main ones that happen within the game will give you the hints you need to cause these. Better brush up on your mythology.

As you can see, these aren't Pokemon monsters. They have histories, personalities, preferences and goals like your more normal RPG party members. They just happen to be demons. And as you can see, the Japanese conception of the word "demon" can be much looser than the English one.

However, let's say you don't want to convince the Maenad to join your party to repent -- you like her style and her breasts. Speaking of angels in business suits, remember last article's mention of the Shinjuku stereotype of yakuza lackeys offering high school girls parts in porn movies? Let's just say you need not use a virtuous tactic to attract her to join the "party." This is a perfect example of how Nocturne brings together the modern culture of Japan, ancient mythological pinnings and gameplay into one cohesive whole.

And in Nocturne, it works even better. Negotiations are usually considered only in terms of requests and questions, earlier MegaTen games played out in a much more complicated fashion, with two more alignments taking part (chaos and order) and even more conversation options. Indeed, you don't need to take into account the new Shin Megami Tensei III alignments: Yosuga, Musubi and Shijima -- those just have an affect on the storyline. Though you may find different kinds of corresponding demons in places where the Shijima, Musubi or Yosuga congregate their conflicts against each other. The older games, however, despite offering some more complexity tended to make these things a little too involved at times--battles would often have too many intersecting alignments and elements and traits, making the results frustratingly random and feel at times, grossly unfair. On top of that, the game could have the feel of one labyrinthine menu after another and make battles go on for a long time. The streamlining in Nocturne is not the dumbing down type of streamlining. You can see there's still a mountain of strategic thinking involved and I've not even mentioned what else can come into play, like the waxing and waning Kagutsuchi--its often a really bad idea to negotiate with demons while its on the rise, because they tend to act like they've just consumed a whole lotta crack."

I then went on to explain that some demons can't be gotten by negotiation, and must be birthed by a conception of unholy demon union--I make it sound nasty, but it really isn't--and that Atlus seems to have taken these elements into account, because in Japan, they've ported the older games to newer systems, so if Nocturne does well they could translate Shin Megami Tensei I, II and If... for the GBA and it wouldn't look like a step backwards because of the way the series has evolved. But since that doesn't take paragraphs and paragraphs to explain or demonstrate the strategy on hand, I hope to have that in the column. :)

I'll just end this by saying that I hope very much this gets a good translation, you can imagine all the funky things that could go wrong with a bad translation on a game like this.

-Kitsune