That joke won't be nearly as funny anymore...

[stusser]

Originally Posted by DeepT

there is the infinite frustration of the developers not responding to certain questions yet liberally responding to the most trivial remarks people make.

That's because they aren't developers, they're forum admins. They are there to ban people for posting in all caps and making racial slurs and have no other value. Again, that's the root of why blizzard's forums suck; there are no community advocates, just CS reps.

It's like all of those low end gaming websites that interview the production house's PR chick for the title. I mean, who cares what the PR chick says? She's an automaton.

Or when your computer breaks and you call Dell and get Abhishek Gupta making half a lakh per year and lovin' it, who answers the phone as "Bobby" and takes you through a script starting with "is your computer plugged in and the same?" Get off the fucking phone Mssr. Uthra Ramakrishnan and put me on with level 4 tech support in texas. Who wants to talk to a robot? Get me someone who knows something.

[Mark Asher]

The problem devs have in posting on message boards is they are the prophets of the gods, and everything they say is analyzed with religious fervor. Any part of the game they mention then becomes part of the game that the players expect to see worked on, and worked on NOW!

For example, if someone from Blizzard simply said, "We're aware that some players feel rogues don't have enough utility in raids" that becomes in the minds of the rogue players a promise that rogues are being reviewed and that they may be changed to have more utility in raids.

The problem is that the player base can be extremely unreasonable. You have to be very careful about what you say to extremely unreasonable people.

[mutt]

Shut the fuck up.

[Lietgardis]

Originally Posted by zabuni

But sometimes developers can see the bigger picture, just from the fact they can see what everyone is doing. They have access to server logs, and can monitor play on a global level.

Just because they can doesn't mean they do. Very few MMO developers use metrics, even though they're sitting on a shitton of useful data.

[JM]

Originally Posted by Matt Perkins

Hey now, I linked to a post I made in June. So na na.

So you're channelling HRose at the same time? I salute you sir!

[Sebmolo]

Originally Posted by Lietgardis

Just because they can doesn't mean they do. Very few MMO developers use metrics, even though they're sitting on a shitton of useful data.

I'm puzzled by how you could know this.

[Matt Perkins]

Originally Posted by JM

So you're channelling HRose at the same time? I salute you sir!

I'll be the new HRose! Though he's more prolific than I am so I'm really going to have to ramp it up!

[DeepT]

Originally Posted by stusser

That's because they aren't developers, they're forum admins. They are there to ban people for posting in all caps and making racial slurs and have no other value. Again, that's the root of why blizzard's forums suck; there are no community advocates, just CS reps.

Yes, however, they do speak with the voice of the developers on occasion. If they *never* did, then your point would be sound.

The CMs do seem to have the ability to ask the developers questions, so they can answer the more relevant questions that players ask. Maybe they need to wait a day for the answer, but there isn't any excuse for them to ignore issues for weeks at a time.

There is no excuse for the lack of player CM - Player communication. If I was the CM for both warlocks & paladins, and this was my "day job", I would have plenty of time to read and respond to players in both forums. Class forums are not *that* busy. Only the general forum might need 2 or 3 full time people to moderate it, then again, you could easily filter out all the class issues posted there by saying that the class forum CMs would answer those questions.

[Mark Crump]

The only MMO message boards I lend any credence to are the Tech Support forums.

Class forums can be decent for tips and tricks. As mentioned before, if a blue-name mentions that "we'll look into it" it becomes a promise that players expect to be resolved either through a hot-fix or the next patch. I do expect the devs to read the forums for items that aren't working as intended, or aren't working out quite the way the devs intended.

But most of the time, a class forum is players bitching about how they're underpowered and this other class needs to be nerfed so their class can be usefull on raids again.

[Hanacker]

EVE Online has a pretty decent message board as long as you stay away from general discussion (although more often than not that seems to be where the devs usually post).

[HRose]

Can I reply to this thread now?

I decided to not read anything (about me) for at least a few days, so I'm reading this one now.

Originally Posted by zabuni

Part of me is somewhat sad. I never liked seeing a crushed dream. Granted, given the trials and trevails that pass on the Internet as a daily occurence, you get used to it, and develop a cynical edge. I'm going to design video games, I'm going to be a writer, I'm going to be an anime voice actor. Why doesn't anyone realize my talent? That's because a rant on the Internet and $1 will buy you a coffee at Starbucks.* But saying that to a person in the same community, whether real or virtual, is hard.

*Granted, that's becoming less and less true all the time. Lum, toastyfrog, tweety.

I think it was clear in what I wrote but I never thought that writing on a website would have brought in my lap a game designer job (or whatever). Come on, I'm not that naive. Nor Lum or the others you quoted got a job for their rants.

An important difference between me and them is that I live at the other side of the ocean and I basically (haven't) learnt english through games and forums. Nor I have an ounce of their charisma or popularity. People live next to a building or in the same town where games are made and they become developers. People have friends in the industry and are able to get in and getting trained. ALL those situations are so much more important than have a skill, innate, studied or to develop.

As I wrote, it's a matter of opportunities. Concrete, practical opportunities. A blog could contribute, maybe. But only if an opportunity is there, awaiting. I imagine the majority of those who ARE game designers never even thought of becoming one. They got an opportunity and took it.

I wrote on a blog because I KNEW that what I wanted just wasn't possible. I'm in the middle of NOWHERE. Out of my window I see a goddamn MEDIEVAL CASTLE. Writing about design and participating into discussions was the only occasion I had to go as close as possible to what I loved. My blog was simply that: a surrogate.

A playground to test myself and learn something. An archive of thoughts and dedication.

A way to participate to something where I wasn't allowed.

Think about it *seriously* for a second. It's all normal when you think about things happening to other people, but I'm no super-hero. Let's assume that someone wanted to take the risk and decided to offer me a job just because of what I wrote. Do you think it would be easy for *a real person* to leave the family, friends, house and everything to fly to another country and try to get used to a new job, new language and all the rest? It's not a reality show, it's my life.

Oh yes, I wanted that so much that I would have probably accepted. But it doesn't make that easy, EVEN if there was an opportunity. I would have many difficulties to overcome even BEFORE stepping in the job.

By the way, the wish to be a designer didn't mean for me that I wanted to reach the job with the popularity and visibility. I actually dislike that. Pretty much everything that goes in the process of making games fascinates me. I wish I could be a great artist, programmer or whatever. If I had the freedom to do what I want I think I would hate the idea to sit in an office rolling my thumbs and imagining "great things". Instead I would pass my time in other's people offices and bugging them continuously with stupid questions so that they explain me what they do and how they are doing it.

So, while I bring with me "no skill", I would love to get trained if I found an environment where it is possible and where I'm not wasting my time. Learning things is something extremely appealing for me. I wouldn't become a designer to "teach" my lessons, I would become one because I'm fertile soil and willingly to dedicate myself to it.

Originally Posted by Charles

For most companies, the path to designer exists through QA because most artists/programmer types don't look to move in to design. "Design", like "writing" is one of those things that is often not considered a formal discipline worth paying someone for. Most game companies only start paying designers based on needs when it becomes obvious that having everyone half-ass it doesn't work anymore.

All this is very accurate, in my opinion.

There are various reasons why there aren't "pure" game designers and one is because there isn't a culture of game design. It's not a practical skill and it's not possible to measure and compare.

Actually writing on a blog could work as it could work for an artist to post his art (albeit the art is more immediate). It shows the way your mind works and how you tackle problems.

Even if it doesn't show how you work within constraints.

Originally Posted by Walter Yarbrough

My own personal take on this is that HRose didn't want to be in house game designer and is now quitting after failing to achieve this. (To my knowledge he never applied to be in house, anywhere)

It's much more in the vein that Raph described - HRose wanted to be part of an outside presence, dialoguing with the developers, influencing game design.

It's not that simple for me to answer.

To be honest my desires changed along the way. I started trying to reclaim the right to express opinions and have those opinions show an original point of view because noone was saying them. Then, with the time, my desire became to be in the loop and get absorbed. Be one of the many.

I started trying to be "special" and finished quitting because I didn't find a way to be normalized.

There are things that I cannot learn just by writing on a blog, and I don't have the satisfaction of working in a team, so that I'm not on my own, with my own ideas, but together and contributing.

And above all I need to justify what I do. To find a sense so that I don't feel like wasting time. I don't want to do a job for eight hours so that I can return home and do what I like. I wish I could have a job where I can dedicate myself fully, that I believe in as a value, that I'm proud of, that I think I can contribute to, feel useful and do it well.

Originally Posted by Walter Yarbrough

(To my knowledge he never applied to be in house, anywhere)

Heh. It's not that simple.

Even a (arguably) "no skill" job like Customer Support is already above me because at the very minimum you need to know english, have practice with people and the environment and all that. That would be already problematic for me. I would be a fish out of water.

And that still assuming I live "there" instead of "here".

I just don't have the requirements even to apply. If I had seen a viable opportunity in the last couple of years I would probably have seriously considered it. But in the position I am it's just beyond unlikely.

I don't have aces hidden in the sleeve.

In that, he did succeed. The gap however, between design concepts in the discussion phase, and an actual patch note saying "HRose predicted this on his blog 3 months ago, and here it is - XXXXXX" is long in time.

Too long for HRose, as an outsider looking in, in my opinion.

What I can say is that I'm not stopping writing because what I write doesn't influence the game industry as much as I'd like or expect.

Actually I've gone beyond my expectations from that perspective and I'm not concerned if my website is popular or not (I *never* go check stats or traffic). Nor I pretend to be heard or dictate rules or pretend I'm smarter than everyone else. Being in the family of bloggers is a very nice achievement for me and I'm not dissatisfied of that.

I know my limits and fight with them. Recently my dissatisfaction and frustration was solely about what I was writing. Try to express better my ideas, fight with the language, make the brain work. My own limits. Sometime it happens I write something I like, but it's rare. The gratification lasts usually less than three hours, then I'm back feeling at loss, as if I'm doing far, far less than what would be "enough".

I don't know how or why, but I started to feel a pressure.

As a "designer" I'm not all that often confident of my skills, that's what made me try harder. And I really tried. Even as a designer I lack many skills. I'm not a writer and I usually like design at an higher level about game systems more than planning content, write NPCs and quests and so on. And I'm also not very good with math. So I would suck working on spreadsheets or trying to balance classes. If I had to deal with those kinds of jobs I would need to get trained, and even then I'm not sure how much I'd be productive. I could tackle the problem of balance from the "fun" perspective, at an higher level, but please don't ask me if a fireball should hit for 150 or 180, because I just don't pretend to be competent with that stuff. I know my limits and I don't pretend to know everything.

Not being practical with math would be enough to be exempted from a designer job. At the same time this doesn't mean that this "lack of skill" cannot be useful on its own. In fact there are many systems in games that are overcomplicated and hard to "read" for a player. My limit in that case would help me to design things that are more linear and with simpler mechanics, that makes them also simpler to maintain. It's actually a design approach that I encourage because many games are becoming too much about the underlying math and miss the point.

Why the fuck to calculate the hitpoints of a character or a to-hit roll you need to go through an unreadable math formula three rows long? Game mechanics should be transparent, to the developer as to the player.

Complex math should be used by programmers to make more efficient code, not in game design. I want to play immersive games, not Excel.

At the end you know what's the most important skill for a game designer? Be charismatic.

And I'm not even that.

[HRose]

Originally Posted by Unicorn McGriddle

it is my wish that some of the things you might have blogged about in the past will show up here, on Qt3, instead of being lost to some private note collection that none of us will get to see. Especially when Vanguard launches.

Oh no. I'll spare you that ;p

Originally Posted by Lum

And, ironically, he'll find he has a lot more influence outside the show than within the tent. I know I did.

That wouldn't be a big problem. What I was always looking for was a "positive" point. Where my dedication for something could match my work. Where I feel I'm doing something useful instead of having to find justifications to waste my time (equal to: write on my website).

And it also doesn't mean that you can do your best for things to change :)

The ideal would be to work in a team truly collaborative, where ideas are tossed around and discussed no matter from where they come from, with little censorship or worries. Friendly, constructive workplace. I really dislike the idea of a competitive workplace where everyone tries to step on the toes of the neighbour for promotions and visibility. Even if I guess it's quite common.

[Ephraim]

It's nice to see you post a reply, Hrose. At least now we know you didn't do anything drastic after closing down your blog!

I suppose I see your points, and I understand all of your reasoning.

I'm not all that impressed with blogging as a means of "showing your stuff", and I'll admit to never having visited yours. That being said, I do read your posts here and have occasionally been impressed with your thinking and critique. There's no reason for you to stop doing what it is you seem to enjoy doing, but limiting the amount of time you dedicate to it seems wise, if indeed it's time for you to move on to something else.

Good luck with whatever you decide to focus in on next, professionally and personally.

[Matt Perkins]

Know what I would suggest, HRose... make a game. Sure, you don't have the skills now, but if you really want to make a game, go ahead and figure them out. Use some existing engine that lets you mod, or even easier (I hear) is use the Microsoft stuff for C# that lets you create games.

Come up with an idea, implement it, make something you consider fun. That'll be the satisfaction you're looking for.

Also, if you really like games and you like the idea of designing games, don't stop your blog or at the very least, writing about good and poor game design. Not only is it good to stay involved and be interested, but you'll also end up making friends in the industry...

[zabuni]

I think it was clear in what I wrote but I never thought that writing on a website would have brought in my lap a game designer job (or whatever). Come on, I'm not that naive. Nor Lum or the others you quoted got a job for their rants.

Sorry to offend. I'm just saying that in that a blog is a worldwide communication medium, one that allows for people outside of the industry to make contact with those inside the industry. And with contact, comes opportunities.

[HRose]

Originally Posted by Matt Perkins

Know what I would suggest, HRose... make a game.

Alone? Sure, everything is possible in the realm of wild hypothesis. But learning a language even to be able to make a small game would mean working full time on that for at least a few years only to finish a skeleton of a project. In the *very best* scenario.

And what I would be five years later? An half-assed programmer?

With that kind of option I preferred writing about mmorpgs and keep in touch with things, which, I believe, is essential.

If this thread exists it's because in the last few years I passed my time delving mmorpgs and their game design instead of learning programming or whatever. What I would achieved in the other case is exactly the same: empty hands. With the difference that I had passed years doing something that I didn't like or even believe I can do well.

You really believe that it makes sense to tell me to go study how to program so that in "x" years I will be noticed by an american employer, at the other side of the world, who is amazed by my work as an half-assed programmer?

See, again, I'm not a super-hero. It's not like I'm Great in everything I do. So that I make a NWN module and it's Impressive, I make a level in Doom 3 and it's Impressive, I learn a programming language and hack a mmorpg, alone, in two years or whatever. Or that I can do all that together in just a couple of days, in my spare time.

People who DO get noticed doing that are RARE cases. Moreover they do only one thing. They can make great levels in HL2 OR they can make great NWN modules OR they can mod Oblivion OR they are catass guild leaders in WoW or EQ.

I care about mmorpgs. I follow mmorpgs. I write about mmorpg design for god's sake. I dedicate time to that and keep in touch. Why are you asking me to mod Half-Life or NWN? That's different stuff, it's not where I feel competent. Mmorpgs evolve at a very fast speed, keeping in touch isn't trivial at all. Game design requires AS MUCH time and complete dedication as it would require to learn the art of programming. And you ask that I spend my time by writing a module for NWN? Maybe in Engrish? And to demonstrate what? That I suck writing dialogues?

And then impress someone who played my NWN module and decided to hire me from the other side of the ocean to work on a mmorpg?

Yeah, getting hired as a LEAD designer on WoW by writing on my blog is becoming more likely at this point.

What I would achieve would be just being dragged away from what I actually like. Game design about mmorpgs. This genre is so huge that very soon (if not already) there won't be anymore "game design", but a number of specialized branches that go from economic systems, to PvP, to balance, to interfaces, to controls and so on. And every single one of those will require a LIFE of training.

Even writing professinally about games like Tom Chick and others are doing requires dedication.

Game design needs to be cultivated as every other "skill" you are going to use. Asking me to go in a completely different direction in the hope that, maybe, someday, if there's a miracle, I would get back to my real aim and design something is silly. Some geniuses like Raph are able to develop expertise in multiple fields. They know how to program, they know how to draw, they know how to play a guitar, they write poetry, they know how to design, they know how to speak, they know how to outsmart you at every occasion, thery know how to be charismatic. I'm not born under that light.

I don't, nor even pretend being able to go through that. I'm not a genius and I'm not 20 years old to believe to that kind of stuff.

[JM]

These are probably the most interesting posts you've written (that I've read).

[Matt Perkins]

HRose, my friend, you're awful down on this whole process. It's my opinion you got to have some faith. So you only like MMORPGs, great, make a mod for WoW or some other MMORPG. Use the system to fix what view as a problem, work within the structure to change something that is "broken" about the the system (I suggest the friends system, if possible).

What I'm saying is, I believe that if you want it and you work for it, you'll get it. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but that's just how I roll. :)

And giving up will NEVER get you there.


Edit: BTW, programming isn't that hard to learn. It just takes some patience and some willingness not to destroy your computer when things don't go as expected...

[Bill]

Originally Posted by HRose

Game design needs to be cultivated as every other "skill" you are going to use. Asking me to go in a completely different direction in the hope that, maybe, someday, if there's a miracle, I would get back to my real aim and design something is silly. Some geniuses like Raph are able to develop expertise in multiple fields. They know how to program, they know how to draw, they know how to play a guitar, they write poetry, they know how to design, they know how to speak, they know how to outsmart you at every occasion, thery know how to be charismatic. I'm not born under that light.

The lesson to learn: being successful actually requires hard work.

[metta]

Originally Posted by Matt Perkins

What I'm saying is, I believe that if you want it and you work for it, you'll get it.

I agree with Matt.

In my experience, everyone gets exactly what they deserve. People who say they didn't get what they wanted didn't want it bad enough to do what was needed.

[stusser]

Originally Posted by Bill

The lesson to learn: being successful actually requires hard work.

Like most generalities, this one is easily proved false. Hard work doesn't hurt, but it doesn't necessarily predicate success.

[Matt Perkins]

To be fair, I'm not trying to call you out HRose, I'm just trying to offer encouragement and to say "you can do it!" :)

[Andrew Mayer]

Originally Posted by HRose

Not being practical with math would be enough to be exempted from a designer job. At the same time this doesn't mean that this "lack of skill" cannot be useful on its own. In fact there are many systems in games that are overcomplicated and hard to "read" for a player. My limit in that case would help me to design things that are more linear and with simpler mechanics, that makes them also simpler to maintain. It's actually a design approach that I encourage because many games are becoming too much about the underlying math and miss the point.

Why the fuck to calculate the hitpoints of a character or a to-hit roll you need to go through an unreadable math formula three rows long? Game mechanics should be transparent, to the developer as to the player.

Complex math should be used by programmers to make more efficient code, not in game design. I want to play immersive games, not Excel.

At the end you know what's the most important skill for a game designer? Be charismatic.

And I'm not even that.

Just FYI, you're totally wrong here. You can believe it if it makes you feel better, but it has no relationship to reality. Knowing less will not make you a better designer. The only way out of the math trap is through. Learn to build better systems and they'll become simpler and more tranparent.

What you're describing is a "Game Critic", which is a job that doesn't really exist although there are legions who would consider themselves qualified for it if it did.

The reason that you need to understand math (and it isn't hard math, I created an artificial dog brain and it wasn't all that difficult, just a lot of work) is so that you can, as the designer, craft a totally transparent experience for the consumer. Understanding the consumer but not being one of them is a qualification for the job. Understanding the engineer but not being one of them is a qualification for the job. Understanding the artist but not being one of them is a qualification for the job.

Just for the record I never worked in QA and I've been desiging games for 15 years. Most designers I know started out being producers and/or artists.

[Mark Asher]

Like the others have said, I think you need to grab a shovel and get down in the trenches and start digging for awhile, be that as an entry-level customer service job at an MMO company, or through trying to make something on your own. Siimutronics is looking for people to work for free making content for their Hero’s Quest MMO, and you get to use what they claim is an friendly editing tool. BioWare licensed it for their MMO. Learning to make content with that, albeit in an unpaid position, probably gets you a step closer to a paid position somewhere.

That said, chances are all of it could lead to nothing, just like people write novels that never get picked up for publication, etc. And I still think you might enjoy MMOs more simply being on the outside rather than working on one. I’m not sure how much of any one designer’s vision actually makes it into a final product. I could see it being more frustrating than rewarding. The reward part would be in picking up a paycheck for doing something that interests you. That’s an important part of personal happiness that eludes a lot of people.

[Matt Perkins]

Originally Posted by Mark Asher

Like the others have said, I think you need to grab a shovel and get down in the trenches and start digging for awhile, be that as an entry-level customer service job at an MMO company, or through trying to make something on your own. Siimutronics is looking for people to work for free making content for their Hero’s Quest MMO, and you get to use what they claim is an friendly editing tool. BioWare licensed it for their MMO. Learning to make content with that, albeit in an unpaid position, probably gets you a step closer to a paid position somewhere.

They allow you to do what now? Other than Second Life I hadn't heard about any MMORPG doing this...

[Qenan]

Originally Posted by Mark Asher

The problem is that the player base can be extremely unreasonable. You have to be very careful about what you say to extremely unreasonable people.

QFT. The player base is filled with folks who act as though they were 12. (Come to think of it, some of them are. But not as many as act like it.)

[Mark Asher]

Originally Posted by Matt Perkins

They allow you to do what now? Other than Second Life I hadn't heard about any MMORPG doing this...

It's a game in development and they are looking for people to design areas in the game with their world building tool. They basically want some free help. It's not really game design, but something that probably is closer to level design, though they aren't really levels, just areas that I guess will be hooked up to other areas to make the gameworld.

The world building tool they developed has been licensed by BioWare for use in their MMO.

It's not a big leap to think that if you got accepted into the unpaid position at Simutronics and produced interesting work, you might get a paid position with them or perhaps at BioWare Austin.

[spiffy]

You've stated that you don't have the expertise to create something from a to z, and that you don't really want to be a simpleton artist doing one repetitive task over and over, lost in the shuffle, and you're not likely to move. You're frustrated that making even one commercial grade product would take years, and even then only be the sum of your mediocre parts.
Time for a new approach. There are tons of creative outlets that might give you satisfaction beyond tinkering in a game engine or working remotely for free for some fan project.

Make a comic strip. Paint something. Write short stories. Sculpt something. Make a board game. Make something creative (beyond simply commenting on someone else's creativity) that you can do by yourself, geared towards what you enjoy that you can have a physical or complete copy of and is independant of someone else's engine or idea. Keep your scope small at first, but get the details right.

At least then you'll have a sense of accomplishment at having made something all your own. And if it impresses someone somewhere, great. If not, at least you'll have it for your own satisfaction, and it may lead to bigger and better ideas.

I guess my example would be someone loves planes and wants to design them. Lacking the engineering degree, he instead builds miniatures out of toothpicks. Minatures so awesome people stop and go wow, that's really cool. Then he makes them out of balsa. then he makes them out of yadda yadda until someone says, hey thats friggin cool, wanna exhibit them ? And the ball's rolling. Or, no one cares at all, but you have some cool little models that you made and love and can keep forever.

[JM]

Toothpick 40,000: In the future, there is only wood.

[nutsak]

Originally Posted by Matt Perkins

Know what I would suggest, HRose... make a game. Sure, you don't have the skills now, but if you really want to make a game, go ahead and figure them out. Use some existing engine that lets you mod, or even easier (I hear) is use the Microsoft stuff for C# that lets you create games.

Come up with an idea, implement it, make something you consider fun. That'll be the satisfaction you're looking for.

Also, if you really like games and you like the idea of designing games, don't stop your blog or at the very least, writing about good and poor game design. Not only is it good to stay involved and be interested, but you'll also end up making friends in the industry...

He doesn't have to learn how to program. He could learn how to make maps... in the UT engine for example. Then he could always join an established mod team. Right? ;)