Cost of entry to make Xbox 360 games: $99

[DennyA]

Microsoft invites the world to create its own Xbox 360 games

Originally Posted by The Press Release

XNA Game Studio Express will be available for free to anyone with a Windows® XP-based PC and will provide them with Microsoft’s next-generation platform for game development. By joining a “creators club” for an annual subscription fee of $99 (U.S.), users will be able to build, test and share their games on Xbox 360™ and access a wealth of materials to help speed the game development progress. This represents the first significant opportunity for novice developers to make a console game without a significant investment in resources.

Pretty cool. I wonder what channels will exist for end users to access "creator's club" content.

[Fugitive]

I hope somebody makes a game that will take music, picture, and video files, in any of the popular codecs, and stream them to the 360 from a network share or attached drive. For, um, points or something...

[stusser]

So you can run homebrew software on consumer xbox360 hardware for $99/yr, including licensing and signing, etc? I mean, it really does say that, right? Clearly they're not going to do that, but it does say it.

I assume the entire thing is bullshit, the $99 is just for "XNA", you still need to buy extravagently expensive devkits to run your game on, like, a real xbox360, all product still has to go through MS's grueling verification and testing, and licensing is still incredibly costly. I mean, obviously.

[Rob Beschizza]

Note that while it is unlikely for MS to allow for a hypothetical "Semi pro/Amateur hour" zone, it is inconceivable that Sony might.

I just think it's interesting that MS is trying to make people think they will allow homebrew, at a time Sony is trying very hard to shut it down on the PSP.

[zabuni]

I have to wonder what the 99 bucks will get you. It sounds like the Express Studio just allows for the creation of the game code, and the ability to run it on the pc. Will the 99 bucks allow you to run the code on a single xbox 360. Could you share that code, with Microsoft vetting, with other people who paid the 99 bucks.

[zabuni]

Originally Posted by Rob Beschizza

Note that while it is unlikely for MS to allow for a hypothetical "Semi pro/Amateur hour" zone, it is inconceivable that Sony might.

I just think it's interesting that MS is trying to make people think they will allow homebrew, at a time Sony is trying very hard to shut it down on the PSP.

And even weirder is that they semi allowed it (Net Yaroze, PS2 linux) on the ps1 and ps2.

[Coca Cola Zero]

Originally Posted by zabuni

And even weirder is that they semi allowed it (Net Yaroze, PS2 linux) on the ps1 and ps2.

I think the Net Yaroze was an honest attempt to attract small developer attention back before Sony became the 800 lbs gorilla in the console market. The PS2 Linux kit was more of an attempt to prove the PS2 was a computer and should be taxed as such. Now they realize that won't work as the previous attempt already failed

However... Considering how successful some of the small Xbox Live Arcade games have been, I'd be pretty surprised if Sony isn't thinking about doing this as a serious endeavour, as Microsoft seems to be doing.

[Jason Cross]

I got some questions answered about it. Here goes:

The beta released at the end of the month will be just on the PC. The release version (at the end of the year) will let anyone with a "creator's club" membership ($99 per year) create builds on their PC to run on their Xbox 360. You'll basically take your Xbox 360 on the same local network as your PC, set it to listen for a code dump from your PC running the Game Studio Express, and then on your PC you hit the 'ol "compile and run on 360" thing. Very similar to the actual pro development environment, only it works on retail 360s (on the same local network, provided you have a creator's club membership activated on that console).

You can share your games to anyone else in the creator's club. Just send the XNA project to them in email, on a memory key, put it up on your site for download, whatever. They load it up on their PC in their copy of XNA Game Studio Express, and send it to their Xbox.

The goal is that, in the future, they'll have a channel for people who are not members of the creator's club to download and play the homebrew games. Like, there's Live Aracade, and there will be Creator's Arcade or some such. Anyone in the creator's club would theoretically be able to submit to Creator's Arcade and MS would examine it to make sure it's not really a pirate game or won't harm your Xbox, then they put it up for everyone to download and check out. That aspect of it is a little further out (think next year) and they're still working on details like ownership and copyright, how they'll examine submissions for safety, etc.

Game Stuio Express won't include the stuff to let your game do online multiplayer over Live - that's reserved for the full XNA Studio.

Garage Games is porting all their Torque stuff (Torque game builder and the full Torque engine and tools) over to XNA to run in managed code and getting great performance, so they say. So that's a full game engine you can get for cheap to use with XNA Game Studio Express, if you want.

All in all, it's a super positive move to enabling homebrew - even dramatically supporting homebrew - on a major console. It's more support than I can remember any other major player giving the indie and homebrew scene. Clearly it doesn't totally open the console so it's the wild west like the PC is, but the barrier seems pretty low to me. I'm interested to see where it goes.

I'm going to try to find out more tomorrow (I'm up in Seattle for Gamefest now...got this info at a dinner with MS and Garage Games guys) and clear up some other questions.

[Marcus]

Wow that sounds like kick ass! I'd pay 100 a year to beable to play some of the shit that people are going to make.

[Coca Cola Zero]

Sounds awesome, though I'd be happier if they were working with, say, the Ogre3d guys (which might be in the cards later when Ogre3d is available under a non-LGPL license), rather than GarageGames/Torque, because the Torque engine is so shitty.

But presumably one should (with some modifications) be able to make their own build of Ogre3d, Irrlicht, or other open source 3d engines that use DirectX and use them with this system... sounds fantastic! Sign me up!

[Calistas]

Heck! Microsoft get it. Well done them!

[jim crawford]

Maybe I don't have to wait for a game I really want to play to buy a 360.

[Chris Nahr]

Originally Posted by Jason Cross

Garage Games is porting all their Torque stuff (Torque game builder and the full Torque engine and tools) over to XNA to run in managed code and getting great performance, so they say. So that's a full game engine you can get for cheap to use with XNA Game Studio Express, if you want.

Wait a second there... I saw a Microsoft blog entry about a C# demo game running on the 360, and now you mention managed code. So will all games created with Game Studio Express run on the .NET Framework for the 360? Can you do C++ development at all, or is that reserved for the full XNA version?

Not that I anticipate any huge performance issues for homebrew games, C# should be easily fast enough for them. Just wondering.

[cliffski]

This isnt anything good for indie developers (disclosure -> I am one), You cant sell these games or make any money, and the only other people who will play them are other 'homebrew' developers. Basically you pay $100 a year for the priveledge of learning gamedev on a proprietry system, so you can go work for EA on their next 360 project.
This is a way to ensure the amateur hobbyists who want to work for big name studios when they learn their trade, do so on the 360 and not any other platform. This has bugger all to do with encouraging indie game development, or indie games, its about capturing the mindshare of the next wave of console programmers.
Indie gmers will go the XBLA route if they have the big piles of cash, or stick to the PC where the SDK is free, we already have a devkit, and nobody takes a chunk of the profits or has to give us permission to release a game.
bah!

[Calistas]

Cliff, you're right of course. But at the same time I think they'll follow through and offer ways to publish. I don't blame them for holding back, it's a bit of a minefield.

That being said this is a great first step! I wouldn't be surprised if they roll out exactly the same sort of package with PC Live! and Vista next year. Interesting times to be a small dev.

[Matt Perkins]

Originally Posted by Chris Nahr

Wait a second there... I saw a Microsoft blog entry about a C# demo game running on the 360, and now you mention managed code. So will all games created with Game Studio Express run on the .NET Framework for the 360? Can you do C++ development at all, or is that reserved for the full XNA version?

Not that I anticipate any huge performance issues for homebrew games, C# should be easily fast enough for them. Just wondering.

Yeah, I'm wondering the same... Is this directX and C# games only?

[stusser]

So they're going to allow us to run unsigned code on consumer hardware? Awesome!

I read a story where some MS engineers showed bill gates a xbox1 running xbox media center. He wasn't upset, he was impressed, and asked how they could tap the homebrew market. Maybe this is the answer?

[mouselock]

Mame 360. $100. Seems like a reasonable price to me.

[dogbert]

That being said this is a great first step! I wouldn't be surprised if they roll out exactly the same sort of package with PC Live! and Vista next year. Interesting times to be a small dev.

Read the announcement - this is coming to the PC at the end of August and to the 360 later this year.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Matt Perkins

Yeah, I'm wondering the same... Is this directX and C# games only?

I can't imagine they'd allow random people to run arbitrary code on the Xbox. Sounds like the first step towards hacking the system. Especially given that you can mail the code to other people, as it would look bad if people started getting hit with trojans on the xbox, even if they had to pay a hundred dollars a years for the privilege.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by cliffski

This isnt anything good for indie developers (disclosure -> I am one), You cant sell these games or make any money, and the only other people who will play them are other 'homebrew' developers. Basically you pay $100 a year for the priveledge of learning gamedev on a proprietry system, so you can go work for EA on their next 360 project.
This is a way to ensure the amateur hobbyists who want to work for big name studios when they learn their trade, do so on the 360 and not any other platform. This has bugger all to do with encouraging indie game development, or indie games, its about capturing the mindshare of the next wave of console programmers.
Indie gmers will go the XBLA route if they have the big piles of cash, or stick to the PC where the SDK is free, we already have a devkit, and nobody takes a chunk of the profits or has to give us permission to release a game.
bah!

But it allows for indie development without front-loaded costs. That's a pretty big benefit right there. A smalltime dev can sit down and make their game for the 360, and then when it's done, shop it around to see if they can get the small investment needed to finish it up for XBLA. I can't honestly see how this could be better for indie devs. So what if it's 360 only? An indie dev isn't going to be whipping out multiplatform titles. And if they want a non-evil-M$ system, well, there's the PC, with it's < 5% attach rate for downloaded indie games, and piracy, and everything else.

Developing risk free first, and then paying up to put the final result on a secure system at the end is extremely attractive, and you'd have to be crazy to brush this off.

[Angrycoder]

well said charles. I can't see how this is anything but good for both developers and players in the indy gamespace.

[Chris Nahr]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

I can't imagine they'd allow random people to run arbitrary code on the Xbox. Sounds like the first step towards hacking the system. Especially given that you can mail the code to other people, as it would look bad if people started getting hit with trojans on the xbox, even if they had to pay a hundred dollars a years for the privilege.

That's a good point. So I guess you'll only be able to run code in the .NET sandbox on the 360.

[cliffski]

Maybe I was too harsh, but I'm wary of anything that involves going through a console publisher. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo all HATE the PC, because anyone can publish a PC game direct without paying a penny to anyone.
If you were targeting XBLA anyway, but wary of the startup cost, this is good news for you, as you point out. But it would be foolish to think that microsoft are doing this out of kindness to indie devs, they want to lure those devs from PC to XBLA where microsoft can earn royalties per copy.
Thats to be expected, microsoft arent evil, but its just that I hate to see this spun as a wonderful thing for indie dev financially, because in the long term, indie dev succeeds only where there are as few middle-men as possible, and that means the PC for now.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by cliffski

Maybe I was too harsh, but I'm wary of anything that involves going through a console publisher. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo all HATE the PC, because anyone can publish a PC game direct without paying a penny to anyone.
If you were targeting XBLA anyway, but wary of the startup cost, this is good news for you, as you point out. But it would be foolish to think that microsoft are doing this out of kindness to indie devs, they want to lure those devs from PC to XBLA where microsoft can earn royalties per copy.
Thats to be expected, microsoft arent evil, but its just that I hate to see this spun as a wonderful thing for indie dev financially, because in the long term, indie dev succeeds only where there are as few middle-men as possible, and that means the PC for now.

Except on the PC, the attach rate is so low (people who actually buy the game), that even if MS was eating 50% of your profits (which is probably way more than reality), you'd still end up making more money. I know Popcap isn't indie, but their downloadable minigames have less than a 5% attach rate. You think a random indie game is going to do that? What about piracy?

And realistically, you are going to face royalties if you are entering the games business. It's a fact, you have to deal with it if you want to step beyond games you host on your own website and sell ten copies a week at $5 a pop. Whether it's publisher royalties or platform royalties. But the trade off in both cases is that you are still making more money.

The exposure of XBLA alone dwarfs anything you could achieve on the PC, unless you got unrealistically lucky.

[DennyA]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

I can't imagine they'd allow random people to run arbitrary code on the Xbox. Sounds like the first step towards hacking the system. Especially given that you can mail the code to other people, as it would look bad if people started getting hit with trojans on the xbox, even if they had to pay a hundred dollars a years for the privilege.

My guess is that stuff created with this version of XNA is running in its own environment, unable to access the bits that would let it do malicious things. Kind of like the backwards compatibility environment -- if an Xbox 1 app tries to do something terrible, it's not going to hurt the 360, as it's running in a virtual machine.

[DennyA]

Originally Posted by cliffski

Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo all HATE the PC, because anyone can publish a PC game direct without paying a penny to anyone.

Ah, yes, Microsoft hates the PC. They sure would like to see that platform die.

The whole Vista Games Explorer push and the new Games for Windows brand and magazine are probably products of rebel clans within MS who snuck them past the decisionmakers when they weren't looking.

[cliffski]

Originally Posted by Charles

And realistically, you are going to face royalties if you are entering the games business. It's a fact, you have to deal with it if you want to step beyond games you host on your own website and sell ten copies a week at $5 a pop. Whether it's publisher royalties or platform royalties. But the trade off in both cases is that you are still making more money.

The exposure of XBLA alone dwarfs anything you could achieve on the PC, unless you got unrealistically lucky.

Maybe I am unrealistically lucky, because I can assure you myself (and many others) shift a lot more than 10 copies a week, and charge a lot more than $5.
I've done the usual deals with retail and online publishers, you end up with a pittance. Its true than XBLA has a far better reputation than most, but thats the exception, not the rule.

[RepoMan]

Maybe they require you to submit the game source, which they security check in some way. Or maybe it *is* all managed code. Or maybe they have a way to constrain the OS calls that a 360 executable can make from its native code. Could be a bunch of different paths to sandboxing these games, and you know MS is going to be very careful, because the first viral game that zombifies a pile of 360s is going to create a huuuuuuuuuge backlash among console owners.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Charles

The exposure of XBLA alone dwarfs anything you could achieve on the PC, unless you got unrealistically lucky.

The exposure on Yahoo Games dwarfs XBLA by a significant amount, to use one example.

But as you note, the attach rate sucks.