Fort Hood shootings leave at least seven dead...

[wahoo]

Originally Posted by Kraaze

Not at all. That's why it's so disturbing watching people get worked up over the guys religion, because it's so clearly not relevant.

How to reconcile this with the fact that investigators are focusing on how upset he was about the Army in Muslim countries? He was clearly conflicted about this and his interpretation of the duties of believers (according to his power point presentation).


I'd suggest that you wait till all the evidence is in but if you want to speculate, here's mine:

My belief is that investigators will say that Hasan became more and more incensed over what he saw was a war by the US on his religion. He then decided that he had to fight on the side of his religion and took action to do so. Investigators will also believe that he is partially off his rocker.

To me, that makes religion relevant and contributing to the cause. But obviously, you differ.

[Athryn]

I think his religion may be a factor, but again the problem is saying "because he is a muslim, therefore everyone else who is a muslim who is in the military is going to do this." It's like saying "The Columbine killers wore black trenchcoats, therefore any kid in a high school wearing one is automatically suspicious."

[Anaxagoras]

Originally Posted by Bahimiron

Hm. The 9/11 terrorists and Hasan both had circulatory systems, too. Circulatory systems used to transport oxygen to vital organs. Shit, the evidence is mounting!

Don't be stupid. The 9/11 terrorists didn't have a circulatory system like ours. Their dessicated, shrivelled hearts pumped a viscous black fluid that transported pure evil to their organs, and they defecated the exhausted fluid fortnightly. They used mosques as their recharge stations to generate new fluid.

Everybody knows that. Stop playing dumb.

[Bahimiron]

Except that what we're seeing and what experts seem to be saying is that he was entirely off his rocker, and religion became a convenient excuse. That he had been previously mocked for said religion probably made it easier for him.

Edit: This was a response to wahoo. I have no response to Anaxagoras, as he is right. I was denying the truth to make a point. Damn, I hoped I was keeping it on the down low.

[Kraaze]

Originally Posted by Athryn

I think his religion may be a factor, but again the problem is saying "because he is a muslim, therefore everyone else who is a muslim who is in the military is going to do this." It's like saying "The Columbine killers wore black trenchcoats, therefore any kid in a high school wearing one is automatically suspicious."

I'm still not sold on the idea that his religion was a factor at all. Nuts people snap and go on shooting rampages, and there doesn't seem to be any sort of rhyme or reason to it.

[Athryn]

I think it might have been "a" factor, but not "the" factor. And again, I think he has much more in common with Columbine or Virginia Tech than, say, 9/11 or Oklahoma City.

[ElGuapo]

Originally Posted by Bahimiron

Except that what we're seeing and what experts seem to be saying is that he was entirely off his rocker, and religion became a convenient excuse. That he had been previously mocked for said religion probably made it easier for him.

Edit: This was a response to wahoo. I have no response to Anaxagoras, as he is right. I was denying the truth to make a point. Damn, I hoped I was keeping it on the down low.

When was he mocked for this religion exactly? I've seen zero stories of any colleagues or friends or coworkers or acquaintances doing that. Every I've seen said he ostracized himself by being extremely confrontational and inappropriate about it. i.e. not wanting his picture taken in group photos at work with women in them, or going off on tangents in class about religion and the war against Islam when discussing things completely unrelated, or giving off topic presentations about suicide bombers and backlash against soldiers in the US when he was supposed to be giving a lecture on something else entirely.

I'd like to see a link to one story that backs up your claim here, that he was mocked.

[Kraaze]

Originally Posted by Athryn

I think it might have been "a" factor, but not "the" factor. And again, I think he has much more in common with Columbine or Virginia Tech than, say, 9/11 or Oklahoma City.

Sounds like we have pretty close viewpoints. I would have said everything in common with Columbine/VTand nothing with 9/11 or Ok city.

If the guy had been a southern baptist there wouldn't have been a terrorism angle to this story at all.

[Anti-Bunny]

"because he is a muslim, therefore everyone else who is a muslim who is in the military is going to do this."

I don't think that anyone here is arguing anything like that, that his being a Muslim was a major factor.

Arguing that he was apparently a subscriber to extremist variants of Muslim theology is entirely different.

[ElGuapo]

And so it begins. Gates calls for probe into the military for other unstable individuals.

Question 1: Are you Muslim?

/sarcasm

[Anti-Bunny]

Originally Posted by ElGuapo

I'd like to see a link to one story that backs up your claim here, that he was mocked.

One of his family members said he was mocked, in an interview immediately after the shooting with his cousin.

But they also said he'd told them he was trying to get out of the Army and we know he never did (at least not officially, anyway).

[zengonzo]

Hasan apparently slipped through cracks in the Army's personnel and mental health systems

Yeah, slipped through the cracks .. And treated other people for mental health issues in the course.

He fucking was the cracks.

[Bahimiron]

Originally Posted by ElGuapo

I'd like to see a link to one story that backs up your claim here, that he was mocked.

Okay.

I'm a little surprised you missed it. It was an early story that broke on the situation. It has been linked and referenced in this very thread.

[Anti-Bunny]

Originally Posted by zengonzo

Yeah, slipped through the cracks .. And treated other people for mental health issues in the course.

He fucking was the cracks.

Pretty much everyone knew he was at least a bad officer (if not an actual danger), but didn't want to say anything too strong for fear of being thought racist. He was a crack, sure, but a crack that should've been patched by his superiors. You don't just up and fire someone in the Army, but he was already on the radar as a problem. He'd been counseled on his weight, gotten several negative OERs, etcetc. But no one wanted to actually push to get him out of uniform too hard for reasons articulated above; Kid gloves all the way

I mean, seriously, the shit he pulled (prosyletizing to patients, etc, etc) would've resulted in much harsher penalties for other soldiers, even other officers.

[Kraaze]

Originally Posted by Anti-Bunny

Pretty much everyone knew he was at least a bad officer (if not an actual danger), but didn't want to say anything too strong for fear of being thought racist.

Interesting, I hadn't realized you were a racist.

Originally Posted by Anti-Bunny

He was a crack, sure, but a crack that should've been patched by his superiors. You don't just up and fire someone in the Army, but he was already on the radar as a problem. He'd been counseled on his weight, gotten several negative OERs, etcetc. But no one wanted to actually push to get him out of uniform too hard for reasons articulated above; Kid gloves all the way

I mean, seriously, the shit he pulled (prosyletizing to patients, etc, etc) would've resulted in much harsher penalties for other soldiers, even other officers.

My understanding is that there was plenty of reasons to assume he was a bad officer and a behavioral problem, but no reasons to believe he was going to crack and kill a bunch of people.

[Anti-Bunny]

Originally Posted by Bahimiron

Okay.

I'm a little surprised you missed it. It was an early story that broke on the situation. It has been linked and referenced in this very thread.

Yes, and as I mentioned:

Hasan's cousin, Mohammad Munif Abdallah Hasan, said the Army major had wanted to leave the military because he felt disrespected over his religion.

"There was racism towards him because he's a Muslim, because he's an Arab, because he prays," the cousin said in a CNN interview in the Palestinian city of Ramallah. "They used to see him dress in traditional Muslim clothing, so he was a bit irritated because of this. Also, the fact that they wanted to send him to Iraq. He decided to leave the Army for good and hire a lawyer because of this matter."

"They wouldn't treat him as if he is one of them. He was a major in the Army and other majors wouldn't treat him equally as a major should be treated," the cousin said. " 'Yes, you are a major in the U.S. Army, but you are still an Arab, a Muslim, you have your own traditions and values and we have ours.' He was bothered by that a lot. He wasn't respected as he should have been."

This never happened. Hasan never hired a lawyer. He never made any official request to leave the Army. If he'd talked to a lawyer, the lawyer would've said to try to resign through normal channels first and then to come back if that failed. And no lawyer has ever come forward to backup this story, either.

[Anti-Bunny]

Originally Posted by Kraaze, Racist Detector

Interesting, I hadn't realized you were a racist.

BUSTED!

(and so has time magazine, apparently)

My understanding is that there was plenty of reasons to assume he was a bad officer and a behavioral problem, but no reasons to believe he was going to crack and kill a bunch of people.

I'm not really convinced he 'cracked' in the sense you are thinking. However, there were warning signs that he harbored some extremist views, including views on the use of violence for religious reasons.

[Jason McCullough]

Originally Posted by Anti-Bunny

Pretty much everyone knew he was at least a bad officer (if not an actual danger), but didn't want to say anything too strong for fear of being thought racist.

Technically, there's no actual evidence for the second half of this sentence. Army people saying "given the record he should have been dealt with earlier" does not automatically imply a given reason he wasn't. Read the time article carefully; it's all groundless speculation about the actual reason.

Personally my pet theory is that the Army is under such pressure from Afghanistan and Iraq they're overlooking lots of stuff now; we'll see what the investigations come up with.

[Matthew Gallant]

Originally Posted by Jason McCullough

Personally my pet theory is that the Army is under such pressure from Afghanistan and Iraq they're overlooking lots of stuff now

This is true. The Army doesn't want to let anyone go, and there is a huge shortage of officers. It used to be that getting promoted to Major within a certain timeframe of your career was the first post-commissioning benchmark in a career in the Army, and if you didn't pass, you were out. No one ended 20 years as a Captain. Now, officers are all but guaranteed to make Major.

[Matthew Gallant]

Originally Posted by ElGuapo

You know who else went to strip clubs before murdering a lot of people? The 9/11 hijackers.

Well of course. It was because they're muslims. Muslims hang out in strip clubs, everyone knows that.

[Anti-Bunny]

This NPR article describes more of the same from other coworkers.

To be honest, you're right that I really don't think there's any one incident or factor you can point to and say 'Well THIS should've been what got him canned!!11'. But there was a pattern of smaller incidents and behaviors. There were investigations into Hasan done, but the investigators didn't talk with the other investigators and with the guy's superiors, and felt, with what they had, it wasn't solid enough. Had they discussed Hasan with his superiors, things may have been different.

The facts were all there, but they weren't put together in time. There was an Army investigation of him and a FBI investigation, each looking at different things, and his superiors didn't know about either one. The three parties simply never connected.

[VegasRobb]

I'm reading that there are conflicting stories of who actually shot Hasan. Can't find the link at the moment.

[Anti-Bunny]

Originally Posted by VegasRobb

I'm reading that there are conflicting stories of who actually shot Hasan. Can't find the link at the moment.

Sergeant Mark Todd apparently dropped him, after Hasan shot Munley three times.

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?s...&article=65937

Edit: Oh.. I see why the Media isn't plastering his photo all over the place


I'm guessing that ARFCOM isn't buying him an engraved AR-15, either.

[ElGuapo]

My neighbor down the street also goes to strip clubs, all the time. He's a big fat white guy. Should I report him to Homeland security?

[zengonzo]

Whenever I read these accounts and get to the part about the guy reloading, that's when I get the most creeped out.

For all the insanity I pretend I can understand, stopping and taking the time and reasoning to reload so that you can keep killing unarmed people just fucks me all up to hell.

[VegasRobb]

Thanks Anti-Bunny.

Had no idea who the other officer was mostly because I only saw photos of Munley.

It makes some sense that the media could link Munley and Hasan.

I'm sure the Army investigation will clear things up. Hopefully Officer Todd's friends and family get lots of airtime on the news channels to sing his praises.

[Anti-Bunny]

The accounts that Todd gives of the shooting is really weird. Since when do Police demand you 'drop your weapons' before opening up? But he says he did it twice, even after he found Munley bleeding and unconscious.

[Moore]

Originally Posted by ElGuapo

My neighbor down the street also goes to strip clubs, all the time. He's a big fat white guy. Should I report him to Homeland security?

Muslim in a costume. Just like Limbaugh.

[Anti-Bunny]

Originally Posted by Moore

Just like Limbaugh.

Limbaugh is a sekret moslim, too?!?

[Alistair]

US Army recruitment is actually soaring, to the extent that some of the lower standards allowed in recent years have been raised again I believe.