Warhammer Online, after almost 4 months

[JM]

Originally Posted by Athryn

See, that's the problem, the dev team thought they could make a Wow killer, and then Paul Barnett bragged about it and made a complete idiot out of himself trying to make War look better than Wow

Hang on - they specifically denied that and made all sorts of claims as to how they were trying to offer something different to WoW, not beat WoW at its own game.

I don't remember Barnett bragging about how it was a WoW killer.

[Angie Gallant]

No one on the dev team thought they were making a WoW-killer.

[TheWombat]

I never thought their problem was trying to be a WoW-killer. I thought their problem was that they lost the vision of being the follow-on to DAOC, to being the best PvP-centric MMO out there. I was a huge fan, spent a lot of time in the game, from closed beta on, got a slew of toons into T4 and spent a lot of time in the end game. Ultimately, what killed it for me (I stopped playing months ago) was the sheer tedium of the T4 endgame--the "campaign" wasn't compelling for me, there was entirely too much zerg vs. zerg fighting and not enough group vs. group fighting, and too many activities that were necessary for advancement were boring (RR advancement we're talking about). The PvE was, IMO, dismal, and yet while some of the PvP was interesting in spots, most of it was repetitive (scenarios) or downright somnolent (most sieges) or both repetitive and ennui-inducing (most city fights).

On the bright side, there were times when leveling up the first few characters that the scenarios were exciting and getting the first few pieces of warded gear was rewarding. And once in a blue moon there were some killer open-field battles. But in general too much CC, poor taunt/aggro management in PvP, and the "same reward if you have 100 as if you have 10 to do the job" renown gains killed it for me. I love the Warhammer universe, I loved Mythic as a company, but I have to say that things started to go south for me when EA took over.

Now, for all I know the game would never have seen the light of day had EA not stepped in. Maybe the bad decisions were Mythic's alone, and maybe EA tried but failed to fix things. I don't know. I think a lot of very talented people did a lot of great work on this game, and I'm just sad it didn't work out for me at least. I'm happy some folks still play it and enjoy it; I just wish I could enjoy it still.

[Mark Asher]

The PvP didn't hook enough people. The PvE was decent enough, but it doesn't compare well to WoW so that wasn't going to hold players long-term. The T4 PvP was supposed to be what kept people playing instead of moving on to other games and it wasn't compelling enough.

I wonder if you can build any game around PvP and be successful out of the gate? PvP is really hard to get right and I don't know if you can even see the issues in a beta test, because players behave differently once a game is launched.

[KieronGillen]

Originally Posted by JM

Hang on - they specifically denied that and made all sorts of claims as to how they were trying to offer something different to WoW, not beat WoW at its own game.

I don't remember Barnett bragging about how it was a WoW killer.

Yeah, I don't recall that either, from any of the interviews I've done with him or anyone else on the team. The line always about stressing the differences.

KG

[Guido Jones]

Originally Posted by Mark Asher

I wonder if you can build any game around PvP and be successful out of the gate? PvP is really hard to get right and I don't know if you can even see the issues in a beta test, because players behave differently once a game is launched.

A lot of the problems in WAR were identified in Beta (at least by players) but were ignored. Actually that's true of most of the Mythic Betas I've been involved in :)

[Blackadar]

War can best be described as "diamonds in a mountain of suck".

Diamond: Engaging Scenario PvP
Mountain of Suck: Running the same scenario repeatedly, unbalanced classes, excessive crowd control

Diamond: Awesome keep and city sieges!
Mountain of Suck: Unbalanced sides, rewards the same for large groups or small groups, no incentive to play defense, poor system performance, exploits.

Diamond: Inventive and Interesting Public Quests
Mountain of Suck: Not enough players to run them, impossible to solo most of them for some classes. Very unbalanced difficulty.

Diamond: Can level via PvE
Mountain of Suck: Boring, dull quests in bland zones. Uninspired (or downright hideous) PvE instances. No epic quest series.

Diamond: Open game word where anything can happen
Mountain of suck: Not much to do once you hit the endgame if PvP isn't hopping. No crafting. Not much to do on off-peak hours.

Diamond: Lots of classes to choose from
Mountain of Suck: Hideously unbalanced classes, dull character models, uninspired skill trees.

Diamond: Constant content updates
Mountain of Suck: Poorly balanced, poorly focused updates that don't address constant issues with the game. Discouraging statements from Mythic on the direction of the game.


I think that's why WAR is so maddening. When it's on, it's ON, but those times are too few and far between. When you want to log on for an hour at a slower time and your choices are scenarios that you've done 100 times (and your side is getting constantly rolled) or nothing, you're not going to stay subscribed. It's an MMO that makes a cardinal mistake - too many times there's simply nothing to do.

[jfletch]

Originally Posted by Mark Asher

The PvP didn't hook enough people. The PvE was decent enough, but it doesn't compare well to WoW so that wasn't going to hold players long-term. The T4 PvP was supposed to be what kept people playing instead of moving on to other games and it wasn't compelling enough.

I wonder if you can build any game around PvP and be successful out of the gate? PvP is really hard to get right and I don't know if you can even see the issues in a beta test, because players behave differently once a game is launched.

I liked the PVP. The problems with it though, were numerous:

1. I really liked T1 PVP in the city. But with no /xpoff, I was to move on really fast.

2. T2 PVP sucked. The keeps were really far away from the warcamp (I may be wrong on terminology here). If I die I have to spent 10 minutes walking to the keep. The keep battles were basically dying endlessly while the other side zerged units and relied on the NPC defenders. If I die, then, again, 10 minute walk.

3. The non keep battles weren't even battles... just waiting for the enemy guys to leave and then go attack them.

4. Scenarios were fun but I already own TF2 and whatever class I play isn't as gimped as the Witch Hunter.

5. I had to leave the game for a few weeks to study for a test. I came back and T2 was deserted.

I can see a fun big picture here, but it was all fucked up every step of the way. And if my options are this fucked up PVP or the half-assed PVE, whats the point?

[Mark Asher]

Yeah, the leveling is really bad now because T2 and T3 don't have a lot of players in them. Scenarios don't pop that quickly and a lot of public quests are impossible to solo, so leveling really feels like a major grind now.

[Mark Crump]

ok, I'm futzing with the Mac version and I have a simple question: are the tier rewards only earned via ORVR, or do I get them through scenarios, too?

[Oghier]

Originally Posted by Mark Crump

ok, I'm futzing with the Mac version and I have a simple question: are the tier rewards only earned via ORVR, or do I get them through scenarios, too?

Those are influence rewards, and you can only gain influence in ORvR. Unless that changed since I left a few months back.

I keep checking this topic, hoping for a "they fixed the endgame" post.

[TheWombat]

I got a newsletter that had some info about changes in T4 including ditching the fortress fights. I may check it out again, but no one I was playing with is there any more. They all went to Aion (where, from what we heard from them on their Vent server, they don't actually enjoy the game but have nowhere else to go!).

[Mark Asher]

Thought this was interesting. Someone is picking up where Sir Bruce left off and guestimating MMO numbers. He's got Warhammer at about 160,000 subs.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/200k-1m.png

I have no idea how he's coming up with that number, but if it's close, that's a bit shocking.

[stusser]

I happen to know the actual current subscription numbers for one of the games in that chart (not WAR) and I can say that he's off by a huge margin. That doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong about WAR, but it doesn't bode well.

Not to imply he's any better or worse than SirBruce, who was just as inaccurate most of the time.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Mark Asher

Thought this was interesting. Someone is picking up where Sir Bruce left off and guestimating MMO numbers. He's got Warhammer at about 160,000 subs.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/200k-1m.png

I have no idea how he's coming up with that number, but if it's close, that's a bit shocking.

I wonder how he's getting those numbers too.

I'm not shocked at ALL by the Warhammer estimation. My 10 day pass about a month ago revealed a pretty barren world.

I thought LOTRO would be doing better and close to half a million subs, but I don't really have any idea.

[Balasarius]

Turbine would be bouncing off the wall with half a million subs. That's almost more than all their previous games combined.

That guy may be wrong, but I give him credit for his effort. As long as companies refuse to release their subscriber numbers, people will have to guess the numbers.

[stusser]

Guessing is fine, but I know market research that led to large investments based solely upon SirBruce's bullshit charts. The problem is that he never indicated which ones were solid and which tentative, and he was very careful never to say where he sourced those numbers. People used his charts, because they were all that was available, and they figured that was better than nothing. But wrong numbers aren't better than nothing, they're worse.

[Athryn]

So, Warhammer is kinda going free to play.

In the fact that trial accounts have no expiration. Weird.

[Balasarius]

Originally Posted by stusser

Guessing is fine, but I know market research that led to large investments based solely upon SirBruce's bullshit charts. The problem is that he never indicated which ones were solid and which tentative, and he was very careful never to say where he sourced those numbers. People used his charts, because they were all that was available, and they figured that was better than nothing. But wrong numbers aren't better than nothing, they're worse.

But lacking official data, what's our alternative as MMO / gaming enthusiasts?

EDIT - And I don't think it's SirBruce's fault that some company used subscription numbers as a guide for large investing. That's just stupid. There are a million, billion reasons why a given line may be high or low, and none of that is reflected in the graph.

[stusser]

Originally Posted by Athryn

So, Warhammer is kinda going free to play.

Up to level 10, yeah. And you probably can't use public chat channels, auction houses, mail, send tells, trade gold, etc. It's still a trial until they add micropayments, basically.

As enthusiasts we have no alternative and these sites are perfectly fine although, again, their numbers are way off. For the one game I know, those numbers are off by 2/3. The problem is when people forget that they're at best educated guesses and at worst wholly fabricated bullshit.

[Athryn]

Originally Posted by stusser

Up to level 10, yeah. And you probably can't use public chat channels, auction houses, mail, send tells, trade gold, etc.

But you can pvp in the first couple of scenarios, according to my link, which leads me to believe his interpretation -- there are people who love that level of pvp (think level 19 battlegrounds in wow, or thidranki in daoc) and this would be a free way to do it.

[stusser]

Yeah, reminds me of when planetside went free to let players play as "cannon fodder".

That made a great deal of sense for a PvP-centric game, when you think about it-- free players are lambs, subscribers are wolves.

[Mark Asher]

Originally Posted by stusser

Up to level 10, yeah. And you probably can't use public chat channels, auction houses, mail, send tells, trade gold, etc. It's still a trial until they add micropayments, basically.

The public chat is the only thing I'd miss. A lot of people think the PvP in T1 is the best in the game. This is the /level switch to turn off XP that a lot of people asked for, in a way.

[Athryn]

Mythic laid off 80 people today, which is about 40% of the company and responsible for 90% of the content. According to a friend of mine who left before this happened, they're putting Warhammer into "maintenance mode."

I am not sure if there's been an official announcement, but my friend said that I was free to mention it, because it's surprising it's not out already. (I actually knew about it on Friday but not the numbers.)

Makes me a little sad, but mostly for the Daoc nostalgia more than anything else.

[TheWombat]

Disappointing, and sad. I really admired a lot of what Mythic did, on DAOC and WAR, despite my disenchantment with Warhammer Online eventually. I wonder if in retrospect the decision to go with the Games Workshop license rather than an in-house IP was a good one, a bad one, or unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Certainly Imperator wasn't my idea of a great plan for a MMO (no PvP, Romans vs. Mayans in space?) but it had the advantage of being home-grown and seemingly passionately embraced by the designers. Warhammer certainly had passionate fans for the franchise, but the vision seemed a bit muddled from the get-go (just an outsider's perspective, naturally).

It leaves me wondering how (and if) you can make a mainstream-friendly, super-polished PvP centric MMO without all of the issues WAR has.

Originally Posted by Athryn

Mythic laid off 80 people today, which is about 40% of the company and responsible for 90% of the content. According to a friend of mine who left before this happened, they're putting Warhammer into "maintenance mode."

I am not sure if there's been an official announcement, but my friend said that I was free to mention it, because it's surprising it's not out already. (I actually knew about it on Friday but not the numbers.)

Makes me a little sad, but mostly for the Daoc nostalgia more than anything else.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Athryn

Mythic laid off 80 people today, which is about 40% of the company and responsible for 90% of the content. According to a friend of mine who left before this happened, they're putting Warhammer into "maintenance mode."

I am not sure if there's been an official announcement, but my friend said that I was free to mention it, because it's surprising it's not out already. (I actually knew about it on Friday but not the numbers.)

Makes me a little sad, but mostly for the Daoc nostalgia more than anything else.

Sad, but not unexpected.

They need to shitcan the guy who talked about how WAR was failing because they PvE wasn't hard enough. Then they needed to give the 80 people who got laid off 2x4s and let them bash the guy in the head. It's dicks like that who ruin games. I swear, WAR shouldn't have been that hard to fix and I think it was one or two key managers that probably fucked that game up. Talk about finding a way to lose...that game had everything going for it and they managed to screw it up just enough to doom it.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by TheWombat

It leaves me wondering how (and if) you can make a mainstream-friendly, super-polished PvP centric MMO without all of the issues WAR has.

I think you can. I really think that WAR just about had it right and found a way to lose it at the end. I think that's what is so maddening about that game - it got a ton right and was just sooooo close. Assuming the core game is stable; with 3 months' time, a strong vision and a decent programming group, I think you could round out WAR to be a darn good MMO.

[Lum]

Originally Posted by Athryn

Mythic laid off 80 people today, which is about 40% of the company and responsible for 90% of the content. According to a friend of mine who left before this happened, they're putting Warhammer into "maintenance mode".

Don't know anything about numbers, but literally everyone I know who was still at Mythic outside of upper management is looking for work this morning.

[Athryn]

Originally Posted by Lum

Don't know anything about numbers, but literally everyone I know who was still at Mythic outside of upper management is looking for work this morning.

Yeah that was the number that Larry (Turk if you remember him from the TL days) gave me, from the guys he still knows that work there.

It sounds like there are rumors that a few other studios got hit today also, at least according to Kotaku (who quoted me as a source, so you know there's some spot on journalism right there.)

[Adam Altmann]

Originally Posted by TheWombat

...I wonder if in retrospect the decision to go with the Games Workshop license rather than an in-house IP was a good one, a bad one, or unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

(My opinion only.) The Games Workshop license should have been money in the bank, but trying to cram that entire universe into a two-team, DAoC type PvP system stripped it of most everything it had going for it.