Turn-based Strategy Suggestions - Page 5

unbongwah · 03-05-2008, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomChick

Dammit, I'm going to reinstall this by the end of the day, aren't I?

yes45

Lorini · 03-05-2008, 01:15 PM

Just install it on a thumb drive, then it's always ready when you want it :)

TomChick · 03-05-2008, 01:17 PM

Oooh, I forgot about this big huge tech poster! And all these tables in the back of the manual! I've even printed out a big fat FAQ and stuffed it into the box. I love you, SMAC. Get onto my harddrive!

-Tom

Troy S Goodfellow · 03-05-2008, 01:18 PM

The odds of another SMAC are obviously slim, but it would be sweet. The faction leaders in that game were some of the most memorable characters I've ever plotted against even though they were just a bunch of pluses and minuses. Now stick Sister Miriam in the Civ IV relations matrix and it starts to sound even better.

Great, great game.

Tom, where would Dominions 3 fit on your list? I know you hate lists...but since you have a top three already...

Troy

TomChick · 03-05-2008, 01:22 PM

Shut up, Goodfellow. There's no way I'm going to reinstall Dom right now. Would you hand me over that SMACX disc?

-Tom

P.S. Dom3 doesn't have the single player kick that my favorite turn-based strategy games have. It's awfully twiddly and demanding in terms of making me learn the magic and item systems. It can be in my top ten, but I'm not sure it would make my top five. Armageddon Empires might make the top five. X-Com, maybe, although it's aged poorly (interface and graphics). What's your list, Troy? Top five turn-based strategy games of all time. EVAR.

Troy S Goodfellow · 03-05-2008, 01:35 PM

Top five EVAR? Not too different from yours. I'd probably put Rome: Total War second, after Civ 4. (people keep calling the TW games real time strategy but they aren't. RTW's a turn based game with real time combat.)

Master of Orion II needs a spot. And I dither between the Imperialisms; the second one has a lot of improvements and extras, but is considerably more difficult to balance.

I think you're right in your critique of Dominions III, but I have a soft spot for it.

Troy

TomChick · 03-05-2008, 01:47 PM

Urk, you can't put Rome/Shogun/Medieval1/2 in there! I won't stand for it. You're fired. The real time combat is the meat and potatoes of those games. Don't try to tell me you're supposed to go through and autorun each battle. You're playing an RTS with an elaborate turn-based shell.

Also, does MOO2 hold up, I wonder? I haven't fiddled with it in forever. I don't have the box anymore, but I think I still have my original manual.

-Tom

Funkula · 03-05-2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomChick

does MOO2 hold up, I wonder?

Yes. Only problem is the bug in 2000 and beyond where the interface panels will commit suicide every few turns, necessitating a blind save and restart of the game. On that note, has anyone found a fix for that?

Rock8man · 03-05-2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomChick

Also, does MOO2 hold up, I wonder? I haven't fiddled with it in forever. I don't have the box anymore, but I think I still have my original manual.

-Tom

MOO2 holds up wonderfully. I'm still shocked sometimes at how well balanced that game is. And the diversity of different races and strategies you can employ based on your race choices. Playing the game as an Uncreative Tolerant Lithovore Dictatorship is completely different from playing it as a Creative Scientific Democracy, which is completely different from playing it as a Spy-heavy stealthy warlord race, just to give a few random examples.

What really impresses me is how all those choices filter down to not just the decisions you make on a planet/galaxy level, but also in the ship design choices you make that have a huge effect on the tactical combat level.

The graphics also hold up pretty well.

The only thing I'm not sure about is whether or not the game is friendly to new-comers. I played the game for the first time with friends of mine, as we played hot-seat multiplayer. So I had the game explained to me in detail. I never had to learn it by just playing the game by myself, and I've never really stopped playing the game for a long enough period to forget how any of it works. So I have no perception of how challenging or intimidating the interface is to new-comers or people who haven't played the game in years.

Funkula · 03-05-2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock8man

Playing the game as an Uncreative Tolerant Lithovore Dictatorship is completely different from playing it as a Creative Scientific Democracy, which is completely different from playing it as a Spy-heavy stealthy warlord race, just to give a few random examples.

I think my favorite of all time is Subterranean Tolerant Catholic (by which I mean the highest value of +growth). Going "nah, I'm not gonna colonize that, it'll only hold 11 pop" is just glorious.

Troy S Goodfellow · 03-05-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomChick

Urk, you can't put Rome/Shogun/Medieval1/2 in there! I won't stand for it. You're fired. The real time combat is the meat and potatoes of those games. Don't try to tell me you're supposed to go through and autorun each battle. You're playing an RTS with an elaborate turn-based shell.

The battles are undoubtedly the big draw, but character management, city upgrades, building the soldiers...all the real "game" stuff is in the turn based campaign. I'd argue that, at least since Rome, the campaign is the meat and potatoes and the battles are the gravy. I think one reason that Creative Assembly sped the battles up was to put more emphasis on the higher level strategic game.

And you only autorun battles you're not afraid of losing.

Quote:

Also, does MOO2 hold up, I wonder? I haven't fiddled with it in forever. I don't have the box anymore, but I think I still have my original manual.

"Does it still hold up?" is a good question. I wonder if it's even as good as GalCiv 2. I still have it lying around here somewhere, so I'll install it later this week and let you know.

It's interesting, though. People look back on some distant Golden Age of TBS, but when it comes down to it, there isn't really a lot of reason to go back to most of those games. The original Warlords? Heroes of Might and Magic? Colonization? Master of Magic? Annals of Rome?

Troy

Gendal · 03-05-2008, 02:05 PM

I played MOO2 in 2004ish and loved it. SMAC had been my only previous 4X experience I think, so it not only holds up well, but is relatively newbie friendly.

Slainte Mhath · 03-05-2008, 02:06 PM

DO the HOMM games count as TBS? I'd have to rank the series in my Top 5 when talking about Turn Based gaming.

I also tend to agree with Troy that the Rome/Medieval/Shogun games really are more TBS than RTS, if only because what you do on the strategic map and city screens really impacts the game far more than the individual battles.

Tom, you know you want to play some SMAC, and as long as you're doing an install, it only takes a moment to drop Imp2 on there as well. Come on brother, you know those Gold, Gem and Diamond tiles are just begging to be uncovered. Do you rush in with your Lancers and subdue the natives outright, or do you try to manipulate trading in cash goods with a subsidy into a mass addition of New World provinces to your empire. You just know you're going to need all that sugar and tobacco later on...oh, and you really ought to connect that tin mine now so you can start building up a surplus fro when the bronze crunch hits when you upgrade all those units. Shipping, I need shipping! ;-)

TomChick · 03-05-2008, 02:14 PM

You're an evil little man, Slainte.

How's the interface in MOO2? Because frankly, that's what killed X-Com for me when I tried it a few years ago. I simply can't abide an interface that gets between me and my game, particularly given how well games like Civ4, Rise of..., and WBC have done interfaces. Imperialism II is a perfect example of how slick everything is with its centralized city, in a perfect interface-meets-game-design way.

I'm spoiled, and I'm not going to tolerate a bad interface bogging down my game. That's actually what keeps me from ever wanted to replay X-Com. No thanks. Well, that and the 320x200.

-Tom

rlsuth · 03-05-2008, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy S Goodfellow

It's interesting, though. People look back on some distant Golden Age of TBS, but when it comes down to it, there isn't really a lot of reason to go back to most of those games. The original Warlords? Heroes of Might and Magic? Colonization? Master of Magic? Annals of Rome?

Warlords 2 Deluxe, and later, is still a lot of fun, as is Moo2. The rest? I agree, no point in going back. I really didn't like GalCiv1 and never got into 2, before I gave up on the series.

Rock8man · 03-05-2008, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomChick

How's the interface in MOO2? ...
I'm spoiled, and I'm not going to tolerate a bad interface bogging down my game. That's actually what keeps me from ever wanted to replay X-Com. No thanks. Well, that and the 320x200.

I'm the same way. That's why I consider myself having missed several good games for good. X-com being one of them, since I can't stand the low resolution and interface. The same with Master of Orion, the original. Its so low resolution, it really gets in the way.

Luckily, the MOO2 interface holds up really well. Information is always easily at your fingertips. You can right-click on pretty much anything to find out more about it. And the graphics look decent even today, because the resolution was at a good level by that the time the game came out.

I like the GalCiv games, but I still don't like them as much as I like replaying MOO2. Its just one of those games that has aged really well and is really deep.

Jon Shafer · 03-05-2008, 04:24 PM

Wow, this topic really took off in the last couple days. It's always nice to see there's still interest in TBS games, at least in one small nook of the internet. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpstorm

Jon, speak up. Convince us that TBS on the PC is not yet dead at Firaxis.

Hey, as long as people keep buying them I'm sure there's a good chance we might make another one day... however, I am but a lowly peon in the grand scheme of things, so who knows. ;)

Jon

Alan Au · 03-05-2008, 04:46 PM

Yeah, MoO2 is a classic. Ah, the memories...

Speaking of "older" TBS games, I went back and reinstalled Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic last week. I was sadly reminded why I bailed on the 1.4 fan-patch, which has some good fixes, and a lot of crappy changes that ruin the game.

- Alan

TomChick · 03-05-2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Au

the 1.4 fan-patch

Almost never a good idea. :)

-Tom

SirBruce · 03-05-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlsuth

Apparently (haven't tried it myself), it works perfectly under DosBox: http://www.dosbox.com/comp_list.php?...=1041&letter=C

Thanks, I hadn't checked DOSBox in a few years to see if it had gotten any better. :) Off to re-install Covert Action!

Bruce

AndrewM · 03-05-2008, 06:12 PM

MOO2 holds up pretty well. The interface isn't as developed as Civ 4, but it isn't as painful as MoM is, which doesn't even have queues. MOO2 still bogs down in the end game, because things don't scale to large numbers of colonies very well.

Of course, I'm one of those people that prefers the simplicity of MOO1. In many ways (besides the resolution) it holds up better than MOO2, simply because you aren't dealing with complex build queues. Although it could handle researching new improvement techs, where every planet ends up switching over to full-out ecology or whatever, then you deal with a few turns of clicking "yes" on every planet, when they finish.

Moyzan · 03-05-2008, 07:51 PM

Wow, nobody mentioned Master of Magic? I spent so much time in that game...

nabeel · 03-05-2008, 08:11 PM

I got into TBS for the very first time these past few months (because of QT3 ;) ) and I'm not a strategy gamer by any means; it's quite interesting trying out such a different kind of gaming to what I'm used to (FPS and RPG). I've not been seeing much GalCiv 2 mention over the last few pages, does it not endure for so long like games like MOO2? I haven't been able to try the latter because I never got it to work, but I love GalCiv 2 a heck of a lot.

garin · 03-05-2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomChick

I'm spoiled, and I'm not going to tolerate a bad interface bogging down my game.

I'm honestly baffled you rate Armageddon Empires so highly, then. You really think its interface is less obstructive than X-Com's?

tromik · 03-05-2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomChick

How's the interface in MOO2? Because frankly, that's what killed X-Com for me when I tried it a few years ago. I simply can't abide an interface that gets between me and my game, particularly given how well games like Civ4, Rise of..., and WBC have done interfaces. Imperialism II is a perfect example of how slick everything is with its centralized city, in a perfect interface-meets-game-design way.

Huh? Didn't you write that MOO2 retrospective on IGN?

TomChick · 03-05-2008, 08:39 PM

I have no problems with the AE interface. Once you learn the hotkeys, it moves quickly and the pace is fine. In fact, it's one of the few strategy games you can zip through with the WASD (and F!) keys. Also, I came to AE fairly late, so there was a whole thread of gripes that had been addressed by Vic by the time I played. I can imagine what a pain it must have been in the early days. Slow dice, for instance? Ugh.

I have some minor gripes with the map display and the card sorting, but nothing that gets in the way of me enjoying the game.

-Tom

rlsuth · 03-05-2008, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tromik

Huh? Didn't you write that MOO2 retrospective on IGN?

hahaha there's no escaping the past on the internet!

TomChick · 03-05-2008, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tromik

Huh? Didn't you write that MOO2 retrospective on IGN?

Yes, I did. Eight years ago!

-Tom

P.S. Fine, I'm going to go dig up my MOO2 disk...

tromik · 03-05-2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomChick

Yes, I did. Eight years ago!

-Tom

P.S. Fine, I'm going to go dig up my MOO2 disk...

Heh. MOO2 holds up damn well for a game that has eight-year old retrospective. Hasn't changed much, though, so feel free to read your article and freshen up a bit. :)

malkav11 · 03-05-2008, 10:41 PM

I think MOO2 and MoM both hold up pretty well. There's no reason to go back as far as the first (or second, really) HOMMs when the third is so much more feature-rich and interesting while managing to keep what made the originals great. And it's relatively recent.

X-Com's kinda painful now but it's still functionally unique, so there's no avoiding the interface issues if you want that gameplay.

And Covert Action is awesome and desperately needs a full-bore remake with 3D modelled infiltration and actual document photographing and the like.

03-05-2008, 01:15 PM	#122
Lorini New Romantic Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Pasadena, Ca Posts: 7,113	Just install it on a thumb drive, then it's always ready when you want it :)

03-05-2008, 01:17 PM	#123
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	Oooh, I forgot about this big huge tech poster! And all these tables in the back of the manual! I've even printed out a big fat FAQ and stuffed it into the box. I love you, SMAC. Get onto my harddrive! -Tom

03-05-2008, 01:18 PM	#124
Troy S Goodfellow New Romantic Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 6,065	The odds of another SMAC are obviously slim, but it would be sweet. The faction leaders in that game were some of the most memorable characters I've ever plotted against even though they were just a bunch of pluses and minuses. Now stick Sister Miriam in the Civ IV relations matrix and it starts to sound even better. Great, great game. Tom, where would Dominions 3 fit on your list? I know you hate lists...but since you have a top three already... Troy

03-05-2008, 01:22 PM	#125
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	Shut up, Goodfellow. There's no way I'm going to reinstall Dom right now. Would you hand me over that SMACX disc? -Tom P.S. Dom3 doesn't have the single player kick that my favorite turn-based strategy games have. It's awfully twiddly and demanding in terms of making me learn the magic and item systems. It can be in my top ten, but I'm not sure it would make my top five. Armageddon Empires might make the top five. X-Com, maybe, although it's aged poorly (interface and graphics). What's your list, Troy? Top five turn-based strategy games of all time. EVAR.

03-05-2008, 01:35 PM	#126
Troy S Goodfellow New Romantic Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 6,065	Top five EVAR? Not too different from yours. I'd probably put Rome: Total War second, after Civ 4. (people keep calling the TW games real time strategy but they aren't. RTW's a turn based game with real time combat.) Master of Orion II needs a spot. And I dither between the Imperialisms; the second one has a lot of improvements and extras, but is considerably more difficult to balance. I think you're right in your critique of Dominions III, but I have a soft spot for it. Troy

03-05-2008, 01:47 PM	#127
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	Urk, you can't put Rome/Shogun/Medieval1/2 in there! I won't stand for it. You're fired. The real time combat is the meat and potatoes of those games. Don't try to tell me you're supposed to go through and autorun each battle. You're playing an RTS with an elaborate turn-based shell. Also, does MOO2 hold up, I wonder? I haven't fiddled with it in forever. I don't have the box anymore, but I think I still have my original manual. -Tom

03-05-2008, 02:05 PM	#132
Gendal Social Worker Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,611	I played MOO2 in 2004ish and loved it. SMAC had been my only previous 4X experience I think, so it not only holds up well, but is relatively newbie friendly.

03-05-2008, 02:06 PM	#133
Slainte Mhath Social Worker Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 4,448	DO the HOMM games count as TBS? I'd have to rank the series in my Top 5 when talking about Turn Based gaming. I also tend to agree with Troy that the Rome/Medieval/Shogun games really are more TBS than RTS, if only because what you do on the strategic map and city screens really impacts the game far more than the individual battles. Tom, you know you want to play some SMAC, and as long as you're doing an install, it only takes a moment to drop Imp2 on there as well. Come on brother, you know those Gold, Gem and Diamond tiles are just begging to be uncovered. Do you rush in with your Lancers and subdue the natives outright, or do you try to manipulate trading in cash goods with a subsidy into a mass addition of New World provinces to your empire. You just know you're going to need all that sugar and tobacco later on...oh, and you really ought to connect that tin mine now so you can start building up a surplus fro when the bronze crunch hits when you upgrade all those units. Shipping, I need shipping! ;-)

03-05-2008, 02:14 PM	#134
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	You're an evil little man, Slainte. How's the interface in MOO2? Because frankly, that's what killed X-Com for me when I tried it a few years ago. I simply can't abide an interface that gets between me and my game, particularly given how well games like Civ4, Rise of..., and WBC have done interfaces. Imperialism II is a perfect example of how slick everything is with its centralized city, in a perfect interface-meets-game-design way. I'm spoiled, and I'm not going to tolerate a bad interface bogging down my game. That's actually what keeps me from ever wanted to replay X-Com. No thanks. Well, that and the 320x200. -Tom

03-05-2008, 04:46 PM	#138
Alan Au New Romantic Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Studying instead of gaming Posts: 6,163	Yeah, MoO2 is a classic. Ah, the memories... Speaking of "older" TBS games, I went back and reinstalled Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic last week. I was sadly reminded why I bailed on the 1.4 fan-patch, which has some good fixes, and a lot of crappy changes that ruin the game. - Alan

03-05-2008, 06:12 PM	#141
AndrewM Social Worker Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,121	MOO2 holds up pretty well. The interface isn't as developed as Civ 4, but it isn't as painful as MoM is, which doesn't even have queues. MOO2 still bogs down in the end game, because things don't scale to large numbers of colonies very well. Of course, I'm one of those people that prefers the simplicity of MOO1. In many ways (besides the resolution) it holds up better than MOO2, simply because you aren't dealing with complex build queues. Although it could handle researching new improvement techs, where every planet ends up switching over to full-out ecology or whatever, then you deal with a few turns of clicking "yes" on every planet, when they finish.

03-05-2008, 07:51 PM	#142
Moyzan Goodluck!! Join Date: May 2007 Location: Quebec city, Canada, Gamertag: Moyzan258 Posts: 111	Wow, nobody mentioned Master of Magic? I spent so much time in that game...

03-05-2008, 08:11 PM	#143
nabeel Mad Chester Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,214	I got into TBS for the very first time these past few months (because of QT3 ;) ) and I'm not a strategy gamer by any means; it's quite interesting trying out such a different kind of gaming to what I'm used to (FPS and RPG). I've not been seeing much GalCiv 2 mention over the last few pages, does it not endure for so long like games like MOO2? I haven't been able to try the latter because I never got it to work, but I love GalCiv 2 a heck of a lot.

03-05-2008, 08:39 PM	#146
TomChick Administrator World's End Supernova Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 17,877	I have no problems with the AE interface. Once you learn the hotkeys, it moves quickly and the pace is fine. In fact, it's one of the few strategy games you can zip through with the WASD (and F!) keys. Also, I came to AE fairly late, so there was a whole thread of gripes that had been addressed by Vic by the time I played. I can imagine what a pain it must have been in the early days. Slow dice, for instance? Ugh. I have some minor gripes with the map display and the card sorting, but nothing that gets in the way of me enjoying the game. -Tom

03-05-2008, 10:41 PM	#150
malkav11 New Romantic Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,792	I think MOO2 and MoM both hold up pretty well. There's no reason to go back as far as the first (or second, really) HOMMs when the third is so much more feature-rich and interesting while managing to keep what made the originals great. And it's relatively recent. X-Com's kinda painful now but it's still functionally unique, so there's no avoiding the interface issues if you want that gameplay. And Covert Action is awesome and desperately needs a full-bore remake with 3D modelled infiltration and actual document photographing and the like.

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Turn-based Strategy Suggestions