Reply With QuotePorsche designed the first Volkswagon, not Hitler.
He was on a roll there for awhile, and did design the Volkswagen Beetle. Are we being too harsh on the guy?
Porsche designed the first Volkswagon, not Hitler.
If only he had saved his son from the Emporer, then he would have had a movie series based on him.
I think Pete's referring to Fresh Air the other night; Terry Gross interviews Phil Patton, author of Bug: The Strange Mutations of the World's Most Famous Automobile. He was saying Hitler hired Porsche to do the design, and made lots of suggestions, including "look to the beetle" (for it's aerodynamic shape).Originally Posted by Roger Wong
Hitler made it fashionable to have one testicle -- and he gave rise to the fine Castle Wolfenstein games.
And comedian Tom Green.
I believe either CBS or NBC is doing a miniseries on his early life as we type.
--- Alan
Superman vs. Batman might be cool, but "Jesus vs. Hitler" starring Willem Dafoe in a dual starring role would kick ten kinds of ass.
The amusing thing was that Hitler at least professed to be Christian. The Catholic Church in Germany didn't have much of a problem with the mass executions of Jews, either.
Comics writer Grant Morrison once did a series that was serialized in a British comics magazine. The story was, I believe, called "True Adventures of Hitler." and was about his student visit to England as a youth. The satirical point of the storyline was that Hitler learned everything he needed to know about fascism from British culture.
It's never been serialized, so I've never had a chance to read the thing to see if it was any good.
I would like to point out this is the first thread ever discussing a person or product where Murph has not come in and said - "he isn't so bad, I kinda like him". Where is the love Murph?
How evil is Hitler? Not even Murph likes him.
Chet
I just want to be here and bask in the glow of Murph bashing while it lasts.
When exactly was it that Hitler professed himself to be Christian? He never tied himself to any faith but Germany and himself, which was patterned after the imperial cult in ancient Rome. Also, he made it clear on numerous occasions that he was considering doing something about Christians in Europe after he won the war. A Greater German state would have been about as Christian as Soviet Russia was.
He did so in lots of speeches, although the evidence tends to point towards "opportunist without any real religious/atheistic beliefs at all."
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mis...ca_hitler.html
He made lots of speeches invoking Christianity, but said quite different things in private. He also gave speeches about stamping out atheism, but didn't contradict those in private.
His statements/motiviations kind of pale next to the outright support by Germany catholicism of the elimination of Jews, though. They complained a lot about the eugenics programs, but breathed not a word about the (known) death camps.
Some of the dualities in the history of Catholicism are amazing. They'll murder ten people to keep one fetus from being aborted, but then if it is a Jew they'll want someone else to whack it out anyways. Unless he gives lots of money to the parish. Didn't Jesus say "the way into heaven is a fat wad of cash"? I think it was in Matthew or Luke. Right near the passage where he said that he died for the sins of the whole world except those heathens who eat meat on Fridays or something.
I should stop now.
To be fair, the protestants weren't overly upset by everything, either; the catholics just had more sway.
The thing to consider is that "protestants" consist of a very large number of distinct groups. The only thing that bands them under one title is that they are non-Catholic Christian, the gist of which means they do not subscribe to the Papal heirarchy and so forth. On the other hand, Catholicism all comes more or less from one source with one set of standards.
The entire Christian church in Germany had a meger response to the Nazis.
However, I think you're giving the Catholics an undeservedly bad rap. When it became clear that Hitler was against Christianity, the pope spoke out against him with an encyclial. It was smuggled into Germany on Palm Sunday in 1937 and read from every church. It was the first major church denomination to criticize Nazism.
Not to defend or blame the protestants, but they had a long history in Germany of backing the ruling party. Their concern was with saving an individual's soul, not reforming goverment. So the Lutheran church was particularly unsuited to stand up to the Nazis.
The church may have been "against Hitler" on a variety of issues, but they certainly didn't utter a peep about the jewish pogroms.
But there were plenty of institutions and goverments that were guilty of this. What is your point? For the most part I enjoy your posts Jason, but occasionally you say things that don't make any sense to me. This is an example. Here is what you wrote:
Pale? Outright support? You make it seem as if the Catholic church was running the death camps.
Lots? That's crap. Hitler never campaigned as a Christian. Or linked himself with Christianity overtly. He alluded to it at times in the very, very early stages, but it completely disappeared during his comeback in the later 1920s. Hitler reviled Christianity and made no secret of it, for the most part.
I'm not aware of a statement he made disparaging it in public, Brett. He apparently used it as just another tool, according to private reports, but that link and ths stuff it links to gives in speeches and the like, as late as 1937.
Speaking of Hitler...
(From the Baltimore Citypaper) http://www.citypaper.com/2002-06-12/pf/clips5_pf.htmlWould you be interested in a movie about the romantic exploits of the young Adolf Hitler? How about if it had really good special effects? The fifth Star Wars, which is actually the second one according to the Darth Lucas Revisionist-History Episode-Numbering System, is actually Attack of the Backstory. And a disturbing backstory it is, as hero Anakin Skywalker (Hayden Christensen) glowers darkly while wooing the comely Padmé Amidala (Natalie Portman) and giving off hints how he's gonna Embrace the Dark Side of the Force in the Next One.
Not that a critical opinion matters (is anyone actually on the fence about whether to see the new Star Wars?), but here goes: It's better than the last one, which isn't saying much because the last one sucked, and maybe even better than the third one (i.e., the sixth one), though not nearly as good as the first/fourth and second/fifth ones. The script is awful, but there are all kinds of crazy-cool special-effects sequences, a clever and satisfying leveraging of the Jar Jar Binks problem, a fabulous Alec Guinness impersonation by Ewan MacGregor, and a great O.J. (Original Jedi) turn by Christopher Lee as Count Dooku. There you have it: Star Wars: Episode II--it's better than the last one.
Forgive my ignorance, but I didn't know the "Abortion Doctor Murderers" were Catholics... I thought they were of the Fundamentalist Christian type.
T. Elhajj, I can't speak to Jason's comments but my father has been raving about a book called "Hitler's Pope" which paints a very disturbing view of Catholic complicity in the Holocaust.
Pretty damn close to it; they opened their genealogy records to the Nazis for the express purpose of tracking down and identifying those with Jewish heritage, when they damn well knew what would happen. They could have refused to do so and easily gotten away with it; they got away with strongly opposing the Nazis on their eugenics program.But there were plenty of institutions and goverments that were guilty of this. What is your point? For the most part I enjoy your posts Jason, but occasionally you say things that don't make any sense to me. This is an example. Here is what you wrote:
Pale? Outright support? You make it seem as if the Catholic church was running the death camps.
I'm reading through Hitler's Willing Executioners, and it's not a pretty sight.
This book is a condemnation of the average German during this time, not specifically Catholicism. Granted there were traitors, or German Catholics who were also anti-Semites, but nothing like the support on an institutional level that your comments invoke.
In fact, the evidence suggests quite the opposite. In addition to the encyclical I mentioned earlier by Pius XI, Pius XII spoke out against the Nazis in his Christmas message of '41 and '42. Everyone could have done more, but those people did what they could. When Bishops did speak out, the Nazis were quick to round up more Jews to be sent to the camps. Not to mention that the Vatican is located squarely in the middle of an Axis country.
Here is a page from google with some decent sources: http://users.binary.net/polycarp/piusxii.html
I am no expert, but your comments seem wildly off base. I am currently reading a history of the Christian church. Believe me, there are plenty of things you can criticize the Catholic church for throughout its long history—the Crusades, the Inquisition, just being stubborn and inflexible in the pre-Vatican II world (post-V II too, for that matter). This attack, however, seems completely misguided.
Nothing like an exciting title to whip up sales. ;)
I am sorry but the title alone makes me think it is not going to be a very evenhanded investigation. As I said in the post above, I imagine there were Catholics in Germany who were guilty of anti-Semitism. But that's not the same as the Catholic Church condoning Nazi death camps.
If that line of reasoning were legitimate, you might as well condemn that entire protestant church in America for its participation with the Confederate states, completely forgetting that the same institution supported the Union!
Tim Elhajj
I think you would have a hard time finding any legitimate church willing to take responsibility for these crimes.Forgive my ignorance, but I didn't know the "Abortion Doctor Murderers" were Catholics... I thought they were of the Fundamentalist Christian type.
Tim Elhajj
What about the church opening its genealogical records to the Nazis?
You might want to read it; it definitely points a different direction.This book is a condemnation of the average German during this time, not specifically Catholicism. Granted there were traitors, or German Catholics who were also anti-Semites, but nothing like the support on an institutional level that your comments invoke.
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