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Thread: Voter ID Laws

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    The notion that voter fraud is quite rare is based simply on the fact that it is not often actually caught. That doesn't mean it cannot be occurring, especially in a system that doesn't try particularly hard to counter it.
    Obviously voting fraud statistics are limited only as much as your imagination.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    The notion that voter fraud is quite rare is based simply on the fact that it is not often actually caught. That doesn't mean it cannot be occurring, especially in a system that doesn't try particularly hard to counter it.

    That being said, there are huge "irregularities" that show up commonly in various locations. My old hometown of philly, for instance, has seemingly chronic problems with elections. They routinely have precincts which have more votes than are possible... in the 2011 primaries, 5 percent of the precincts reported more votes from the voting machines than people who actually signed in to vote. Something clearly was incorrect about the results they turned in.. but since no clear case could be made that someone intentionally rigged the results, it could not be considered fraud. But Philly's city commissioner hasn't been able to explain the non-trivial number of over-votes which had occurred. And that was in a relatively tiny nothing election.

    This isn't to suggest that all of such problems would magically be fixed by voter ID systems.. but the idea that voter fraud doesn't exist is kind of naive.

    The reality is, things like deciding the presidency of the US is one of the most important political decisions in the entire world. It impacts everything around the globe. The incentive to swing such an election is immense.

    The notion that any attempt to prevent voter fraud is actually a secret plot to oppress minorities is a ridiculous argument.
    Voting machines are an entirely different topic (and far more dangerous in the long run than individual voter fraud). I expect we'll be inundated soon enough about them again.

    PS as to the secret plot, it's not secret at all - it's real, it just happened to be out in the open as a partisan way to influence the vote:

    ALEC Drops Voter-ID

    Following the withdrawal of support from such companies as Kraft Foods Inc. (KFT) and Pepsico Inc. (PEP), ALEC announced April 17 that it would disband its task force that drafted the voter-ID measures and focus exclusively on economic issues. ALEC also will remove the draft of the voter-ID legislation and other non- economic measures from its online library of sample bills, which state lawmakers use to craft proposals, said Kaitlyn Buss, a spokeswoman.
    Corporations have been under pressure to drop their financial support of ALEC after the killing of Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Florida. The shooter, George Zimmerman, claimed self- defense under the state’s “Stand Your Ground” law, which allows individuals to use deadly force if they feel threatened. Similar laws have been enacted in other states with ALEC’s support. The task force that drafted the self-defense legislation also wrote the voter-ID bill.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Wisdom View Post
    In Pennsylvania, the GOP legislators actually came out and admitted it:
    The legislator is kind of nuts... I find it exceptionally unlikely that the GOP would win in the 2012 election cycle against Obama.

    What's more, the chronic overvote in Philly doesn't seem to be something which the Voter ID stuff would fix. The fact that they have more votes being cast than folks actually showing up at the polls isn't something that an ID fixes... because those votes were "cast" by folks who weren't at the polls anyway. You can't card someone who doesn't show up.

  4. #64
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    Frankly, if there's electoral fraud going on I'd expect it to be on the technical side, manipulating many of the electronic voting machines used in various US elections...well, the issues are well-documented.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    The legislator is kind of nuts... I find it exceptionally unlikely that the GOP would win in the 2012 election cycle against Obama.
    Except it's becoming more likely as each swing state passes legislation that suppresses voter turnout. The fact that the more of the total eligible voting population that turns out the less likely Republicans are to win alone tells you why red states or states currently under Republican control are the ones passing this legislation. But naturally you'll ignore these facts and keep your blinders on.

  6. #66
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    Hey, at least your voting districts are set on populations and not on "voters". (You can see the incentives there right?)

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    The legislator is kind of nuts... I find it exceptionally unlikely that the GOP would win in the 2012 election cycle against Obama.
    The Speaker's sanity is, of course, an open question. But he is the Head Nut of the majority GOP for the state, so I think we must assume that both he and the caucus that he leads believes what he said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    What's more, the chronic overvote in Philly doesn't seem to be something which the Voter ID stuff would fix.
    Indeed. If the GOP were actually interested in reducing what little fraud is out there, they might be expected to propose solutions that would do so rather than ones that would simply reduce turn-out in the GOP's favor.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Wisdom View Post
    The Speaker's sanity is, of course, an open question. But he is the Head Nut of the majority GOP for the state, so I think we must assume that both he and the caucus that he leads believes what he said.
    I'm always kind of skeptical when it comes to believing anything any politician says, especially when it comes down to any kind of strategy, since they always seem to be so full of shit.

    However, it certainly could be that they believe that somehow they are only losing the state in presidential elections due to voter fraud that could be prevented by voter ID's. Personally, I don't think this is the case, but, whatever.

    That doesn't necessarily imply that they believe that the move is specifically directed towards disenfranchising voters. If they believe that the GOP is being put at a significant disadvantage due to voter fraud, then any move to prevent that fraud would result in a benefit to their party, and could result in the types of statements made by that guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Wisdom View Post
    Indeed. If the GOP were actually interested in reducing what little fraud is out there, they might be expected to propose solutions that would do so rather than ones that would simply reduce turn-out in the GOP's favor.
    Personally, I really do not buy into the idea that simply requiring ID to vote is any kind of disenfranchisement. I just don't. Virtually everyone has an ID.. especially the poor folks in inner city Philly, who often make use of various aspects of government support programs... which tend to require some form of government Identification already.

    Under the PA law, various other forms of ID are acceptable, including student ID's, military ID's, passports, any government ID.

    The reality is, the whole Philly area is just a big clusterfuck of nonsense when it comes to elections. I mean, it's OBVIOUSLY not legit. They constantly have overvotes, in every single election... They routinely have 100% of the voters turn out in various precincts.

    Seriously? ALWAYS having 100% of the voters turn out for the elections in various precincts? When the average is something like 46%? No one thinks that's shady?

    When it comes to requiring ID's, I'm totally for it, as long as it's easy for folks to get them and it doesn't cost anything... Frankly, the last time I got my drivers' license, it took about 10 minutes in the DMV. Walked it, sat down and had them take my picture, and they handed me the new ID immediately. It's not like the old process we went through 15 years ago. It's really not hard.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemalin View Post
    The statistics on voter fraud indicate that we are already doing this; there is no need for photo ID laws for this non-existent problem.

    Speech.

    Speech? Nobody gives a **** who you are when you stand on a street corner and yell your opinion. They do when you vote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by triggercut View Post
    Really? Where and cite please.

    See above reference to the lack of a sarcasm meter.

    Kennedy is said to have won the presidency based on late voting from "dead" people in Chicago. I don't think anyone knows if that is actually true enough but several books I have read sure assume it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    Frankly, if there's electoral fraud going on I'd expect it to be on the technical side, manipulating many of the electronic voting machines used in various US elections...well, the issues are well-documented.

    I would expect that is where most fraud is going on. The idea that a group of individual voters could commit enough fraud to swing an election and not get caught is pretty far out, however technical fraud could do it.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    But Philly's city commissioner hasn't been able to explain the non-trivial number of over-votes which had occurred. And that was in a relatively tiny nothing election.
    Really, if you're going to commit vote fraud, relatively tiny nothing elections are the place to do it. It's easier to manufacture enough votes to shift the results in a small local election in an off-year when only a dozen old people are voting anyways.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLWheeljack View Post
    Really, if you're going to commit vote fraud, relatively tiny nothing elections are the place to do it. It's easier to manufacture enough votes to shift the results in a small local election in an off-year when only a dozen old people are voting anyways.
    The thing is though, that the same things seem to happen in every single election cycle in Philly. The folks in control of their election board though likely benefit from it though, so they don't really give a crap about really looking into it. They tend to just say, "We can't explain the irregularities. Oh well!"

    As I said, it's not really related to the voter ID thing, because I don't see how that law is going to affect it. The fraud seems to be centered around just manufacturing votes, but it's not clear what mechanisms are being used to manufacture them.

    It's mainly just an illustration of how the idea that "voter fraud doesn't exist" is naive at best.

  14. #74
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    When there are things going on like voting machines registering Obama votes before, you know, the polls actually open?

    No. I don't think a voter ID bill will do much to stop actual fraud. It's about a different kind of fraud, and two wrongs don't make a right.

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    http://flcourier.com/2012/07/12/stat...er-purge-list/

    The Florida Voter Purge

    The collection is essentially the master list that the Secretary of State’s office used to come up with a sampling of names of suspected non-citizens that was then sent to county elections supervisors. Supervisors have since said that many of the names either belong to citizens or to people who can’t be contacted.

    Some non-citizens have been removed from the rolls as part of the voter purge.

    I would imagine every state has thousands of registered voters who cannot be contacted due to moving and not registering with a new address.

  16. #76
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    If you change your address, you need to re-register anyway, at least in PA. So, purging those folks from the voter list doesn't seem to be a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    If you change your address, you need to re-register anyway, at least in PA. So, purging those folks from the voter list doesn't seem to be a problem.
    You are supposed to here but it is possible (assuming you have a stable voting place) to vote without telling anyone you have moved.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    The thing is though, that the same things seem to happen in every single election cycle in Philly. The folks in control of their election board though likely benefit from it though, so they don't really give a crap about really looking into it. They tend to just say, "We can't explain the irregularities. Oh well!"

    As I said, it's not really related to the voter ID thing, because I don't see how that law is going to affect it. The fraud seems to be centered around just manufacturing votes, but it's not clear what mechanisms are being used to manufacture them.

    It's mainly just an illustration of how the idea that "voter fraud doesn't exist" is naive at best.
    Cite?

  19. #79
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    @ triggercut (just to show that it doesn't have to become an issue with Timex)

    http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/201...-2011-primary/

    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/amandac...r_chaos,_fraud

    And google can find other stuff like this. Now only americans that know what reports are legit can determine if they are all true or not.

    I suspect it is likely, after all i remember the stories and news reports of voter intimidation and shenanigans around the voting at the key places in florida that swung that close election in favour of Bush a number of years ago. So both sides, in which the stakes (and money invested, the most important aspect as to 'why' this goes on) are so high seem to involve themselves in various illegal (i assume?) games come election time in the usa.

    So rather than simple outrage at it happening, ask why is it happening? Then see if you can fix what causes that? Just reading some of the stuff i've been looking up about all this, makes me very thankfull at just how boring and straight forward voting is in the uk. I can't imagine how i'd react to being disenfranchised out of my vote by thugs etc (i'd imagine lots of people would take the thugs down? but then we don't carry guns so that might change things etc).

    How come the usa is so messed up? (the answer might be part of the question i suggested above?)

  20. #80
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    I had no idea Philadelphia was still that way but I recently read a book on the 1920 elections and back in those days Philadelphia was as corrupt as corrupt could be. Chicago and New York City have had their days as well. I am sure there are others I am unaware of.

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    It's mainly just an illustration of how the idea that "voter fraud doesn't exist" is naive at best.
    Thats not really voter fraud in this context though. Noones going and voting 20 times or pretending to be their dead grandparents or whatever. Which is what all these ID laws are supposedly about, when we know that any fraud occurs on a different end of things.

    Its like knowing that someone poisoned your food before they served it to you, so you go after the farmer that grew the food to find the poison. The poisoner is in the kitchen, not in the field.

  22. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaX View Post
    Thats not really voter fraud in this context though. Noones going and voting 20 times or pretending to be their dead grandparents or whatever. Which is what all these ID laws are supposedly about, when we know that any fraud occurs on a different end of things.

    Its like knowing that someone poisoned your food before they served it to you, so you go after the farmer that grew the food to find the poison. The poisoner is in the kitchen, not in the field.
    The GOP operatives pushing so hard on this issue already know this. But going after the real perpetrators of fraud where it exists (at the election offices or whatever) doesn't conveniently disenfranchise Dem-leaning voting blocks, so they continue the narrative of "FELONS and ILLEGAL ALIENS are VOTING!!!1!" They know that over the medium to long term their electoral goose is cooked thanks to changing American demographics. The number of older "non-ethnic" white people is diminishing as a share of the entire US population, but suppressing the other side's vote buys them some time.

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    Actually, dealing with the fraud in Philly most likely would hurt the democrats pretty bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Reynolds View Post
    Except it's becoming more likely as each swing state passes legislation that suppresses voter turnout. The fact that the more of the total eligible voting population that turns out the less likely Republicans are to win alone tells you why red states or states currently under Republican control are the ones passing this legislation. But naturally you'll ignore these facts and keep your blinders on.
    One quick solution: base electoral votes on votes cast during the presidential elections, not population.

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    Actually, dealing with the fraud in Philly most likely would hurt the democrats pretty bad.
    And that would be fine, if it were dealing with the problem that actually exists (pols messing with election results), vs. the problem that doesn't to any significant degree (significant numbers of people deciding to vote as their dead relatives or whatever). The former doesn't deprive anyone of the franchise.

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    Actually, dealing with the fraud in Philly most likely would hurt the democrats pretty bad.
    Fine by me. I don't care who is benefiting from it when no one should.

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    So Florida has a list, thats not accurate apparently, and thats going to be the basis for kicking people off the rolls or something.

    The thing I'm wondering is, could you sue a state for violating your civil rights if they refused to allow you to legally vote? Seems like it would be fairly easy to do and the state would be hard pressed to defend themselves.

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    I'm pretty sure you could and would win in a slam dunk. There's likely a provisional ballot that can be used, however, and that would probably short circuit any action.

  29. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    Actually, dealing with the fraud in Philly most likely would hurt the democrats pretty bad.
    Philly is a pretty bad example, since it's overwhelmingly Democratic. Anything at all that affected elections in Philly would have a disproportionate effect on the Democrats unless the change had wording in it like "This change only applies to Registered Republicans".

    Philly is also a bad example for the votor fraud GOP types pretend to care about, because again, it's overwhelmingly Democratic. In a national election, something bizarre would have to happen for Philadelphia county not to go for the Democratic candidate. The lovingly traditional voter fraud that happens in Philly is over penny ante local nonsense. City council seats and whatnot. At best it miiiight affect a Mayoral race. Not a Presidential one.

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    The federal government has granted Florida election officials access to a database of noncitizen residents for use in Republican-backed efforts to remove people who are not American citizens from voter registration rolls.

    The decision by the Department of Homeland Security, which came after efforts by the Obama administration to block access, was issued in a letter to Gov. Rick Scott’s administration and made public on Saturday. Mr. Scott, along with the state’s Republicans, had been pushing for months to gain access to the database, which is maintained by the department, arguing that it would allow for a more accurate review of voter lists.

    The decision could give a boost to what has become a broad push by Republicans in several states to prevent voter fraud by expunging what they say are thousands of ineligible noncitizens from voter lists.

    Opponents of the Republican effort, who recognize that people who are not American citizens have no right to vote, have argued that the federal database, the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements, or SAVE, was never intended to be used for purging voter lists. They have also charged that the purge could violate voters’ rights laws and be used to discriminate against minorities. With so little time left before elections, they argue, anyone wrongfully purged could be barred from voting anyway.

    In June, Florida election officials were forced to halt the search for illegally registered voters amid fears that the lists of suspected noncitizens were deemed outdated and inaccurate.

    But a few weeks later, a federal judge struck down a Justice Department request to halt the voter review indefinitely. Mr. Scott has insisted that the review was directed solely at preventing ineligible voters from participating in coming elections, including a primary set for Aug. 14. In a statement on Saturday, Mr. Scott hailed the decision to grant access to the database as a “step in the right direction.”

    “We’ve already confirmed that noncitizens have voted in past elections here in Florida,” he said. “Now that we have the cooperation of the Department of Homeland Security, our state can use the most accurate citizenship database in the nation to protect the integrity of Florida’s election process.”

    Florida is not the first state to gain access to the SAVE database. The letter granting Florida permission to use it, which was dated July 9, says that five counties in Arizona are now doing so. Colorado has also sought access to the database as part of an effort to cleanse voter lists spearheaded by its Republican secretary of state, Scott Gessler. The program provides immigration status information from more than 100 million records maintained by the Department of Homeland Security.

    According to the letter — signed by a Homeland Security official, Alejandro N. Mayorkas, the director of United States Citizenship and Immigration Services — to verify the citizenship status of people registered to vote in Florida, officials must provide evidence, like an alien number, that the person is indeed a noncitizen. Those numbers are typically given to people who are living in the country legally as noncitizens. Under federal law, such individuals are not permitted to vote. The SAVE database can provide no information on illegal immigrants who may have registered to vote.

    That restriction will prevent Florida from solely using driver’s license information, as it did when the state compiled its initial list of 182,000 voters believed to be noncitizens. That list was then pared down to 2,600, of which 107 were found to have been registered to vote illegally, according to The Orlando Sentinel.


    Civil liberties and voters’ rights groups said on Saturday that while access to the database could provide more accurate information about ineligible voters, the presence of noncitizens on voter lists was likely negligible.

    “It’s possible to imagine a few limited scenarios in which this could occur,” said Ben Hovland of the Fair Elections Legal Network, a nonpartisan advocacy group. “I think the amount of effort some states are dedicating to this is really a shame when those efforts could go to encouraging citizens to vote.”

    There were also fears that a new push to purge the voter lists in Florida ahead of the August primary and November general elections could lead to mistakes that give people wrongly expunged little time to address the error. Howard Simon of the Florida branch of the American Civil Liberties Union, said that his and other groups would likely seek an injunction to halt any review until after this election cycle.

    In a letter Saturday to Florida election officials, Ken Detzner, the secretary of state, said that the verification would begin as soon as an agreement is signed with the Department of Homeland Security and election officials are trained to use it.

    “It is an unfortunate but now undeniable fact that Florida’s voter rolls include a number of noncitizens,” Mr. Detzner said. “These ineligible registered voters must be removed to ensure the integrity of our elections.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/us...ter-check.html

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