Good Christian life?

[Gratzby]

I'm not sure if this forum-space is specifically for arguments, but it's a question related to religion so maybe it goes here.

I've been mulling over a lot about my future and life choices and that kind of thing in a graduation haze. I've been trying to think of things I can do that would be contributive towards a church community. It's a mysterious area to me - I didn't do anything with my church growing up, and more recently my involvement has been mostly contemplative / internal. But now I've got all this time, and feel like I'd like to give some of that to my church. Except I haven't got any idea how.

Conversion-related efforts aren't things I'm interested in - either I don't have the mindset for it, or I don't see how it can be done effectively in a direct way. My church near me now has pretty much zero in the way of internal youth programs - things for Christian kids / teens to do etc. I was thinking of helping them organise those, keep them varied, arrange speakers and so on. Nothing to do with reaching out to the world, but I'd like to help the internal church community.

Outside of youth groups, I'm out of ideas. Maybe get into writing / editing a church monthly for the adults to read? Fundraising efforts? I can't figure out what churches needs that I could provide.

Any thoughts or advice appreciated.

[jpinard]

I'm not sure if this forum-space is specifically for arguments, but it's a question related to religion so maybe it goes here.

I've been mulling over a lot about my future and life choices and that kind of thing in a graduation haze. I've been trying to think of things I can do that would be contributive towards a church community. It's a mysterious area to me - I didn't do anything with my church growing up, and more recently my involvement has been mostly contemplative / internal. But now I've got all this time, and feel like I'd like to give some of that to my church. Except I haven't got any idea how.

Conversion-related efforts aren't things I'm interested in - either I don't have the mindset for it, or I don't see how it can be done effectively in a direct way. My church near me now has pretty much zero in the way of internal youth programs - things for Christian kids / teens to do etc. I was thinking of helping them organize those, keep them varied, arrange speakers and so on. Nothing to do with reaching out to the world, but I'd like to help the internal church community.

Outside of youth groups, I'm out of ideas. Maybe get into writing / editing a church monthly for the adults to read? Fundraising efforts? I can't figure out what churches needs that I could provide.

Any thoughts or advice appreciated.

I'm Christian and was very heavily involved in church activities until I got too sick. Can I ask, what kind of church? If you ask them, you may be overwhelmed by all the things they need volunteers for, but the youth activities sounds really good.

Nowadays, depending on the church, a really good thing an individual can do is a be a moderating voice. Too many churches now advocate hate, intolerance, telling people if they don't vote Republican they're headed to hell.

Teaching that science and religion can co-exist is also a good thing as many churches are trying to push their way into public schools or teaching that the Earth is only 6,000 years old and we lived with dinosaurs. Big Bang, evolution, etc can all co-exist with Religion but sadly way too many people think if the Bible isn't taken literally they're going to fall apart. So for them it's better to force their viewpoint than to adapt to emerging science. It's very hard for a kid to be told all of Genesis is literal and real, then later learn it holds as much weight as Santa Claus. Learning early on that Genesis is more of a guideline and interpretive set of stories is much better.

[Gratzby]

Gathering teaching resources is a good idea - it's troublingly easy to find the crazies and difficult to find the people talking sense about it. That could be good, that's going on a list. Thanks.

The church is Catholic - not sure about it's type beyond that. It's a pretty big one in the UK in Bristol, but I'm not sure about any political positions it holds - I'm trying to meet the various members of the community over the next few days, so I guess I'll find out. Hopefully that's not going to be an issue!

Another thing I'd thought about was trying to make a home for writing about religion that isn't either parroting views that some demographic of readers would like to hear, or bashing for the sake of it. I can't imagine what would go into it though - I don't know what things other / many other Christians might want to read about, or have questions about, or where you find out about that. 'The Economist' but for Theology is the model I had in mind - journalistic writing about complex topics within a specific area.

[Exodor]

It depends on the church. I know ours has tons of opportunities to help that aren't directly conversion related - they run a food bank and organize teams for Habitat for Humanity.

[John Many Jars]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebvAzFIpvzY

[RichVR]

As an atheist I'd like the rest of the people here that are not religious to avoid this thread. I don't belong here and will not comment after this.

[Nellie]

Gratzby, I'm not religious but I am also in Bristol, one of my friends is heavily involved with his church working with kids. If you'd like maybe I can ask if I can give you his details or vice versa and maybe he can give you some ideas?

I think generally that Jeff talks a lot of sense and asking up front what your church is looking for from people or what ideas they have that haven't gone anywhere yet that might coincide with what you want to do is possibly a better idea than necessarily going to them with a great idea that theyre not interested in.

[dfs]

Gathering teaching resources is a good idea - it's troublingly easy to find the crazies and difficult to find the people talking sense about it. That could be good, that's going on a list. Thanks.

Simply being a non-crazy presence can make you a GREAT influence in several churches. It's amazing that Christians need to hear the message of tolerance even more than most outside the church, but there you go. My guess is that if you make yourself available and active within the church community that you will not have any trouble finding ways to spend/invest your time.

Another thing I'd thought about was trying to make a home for writing about religion that isn't either parroting views that some demographic of readers would like to hear, or bashing for the sake of it. I can't imagine what would go into it though - I don't know what things other / many other Christians might want to read about, or have questions about, or where you find out about that. 'The Economist' but for Theology is the model I had in mind - journalistic writing about complex topics within a specific area.

Boy, that sounds like an interesting idea, but it sounds like something you would want to do when you have a community to grow it around and not just yourself. On the other hand, you provide the community and it may grow, that is how QT3 started.

[Fishbreath]

'The Economist' but for Theology is the model I had in mind - journalistic writing about complex topics within a specific area.

I'd read that.

[Gratzby]

Gratzby, I'm not religious but I am also in Bristol, one of my friends is heavily involved with his church working with kids. If you'd like maybe I can ask if I can give you his details or vice versa and maybe he can give you some ideas?

I think generally that Jeff talks a lot of sense and asking up front what your church is looking for from people or what ideas they have that haven't gone anywhere yet that might coincide with what you want to do is possibly a better idea than necessarily going to them with a great idea that theyre not interested in.

Thanks, PM sent. Hopefully after I meet a bunch of the similarly university / post-university age members on Sunday I'll have a better sense of what projects I can jump into right now, if there are any.

I'd read that.

Boy, that sounds like an interesting idea, but it sounds like something you would want to do when you have a community to grow it around and not just yourself. On the other hand, you provide the community and it may grow, that is how QT3 started.

I'm trying to confirm that there isn't anything like this out there yet, which seems like a massive lack of meeting a (I think) real need. Plenty of decent blogs, but nothing like a home for it... Thanks for the encouraging words

[Rimbo]

I'm not sure if this forum-space is specifically for arguments, but it's a question related to religion so maybe it goes here.

I've been mulling over a lot about my future and life choices and that kind of thing in a graduation haze. I've been trying to think of things I can do that would be contributive towards a church community. It's a mysterious area to me - I didn't do anything with my church growing up, and more recently my involvement has been mostly contemplative / internal. But now I've got all this time, and feel like I'd like to give some of that to my church. Except I haven't got any idea how.

Conversion-related efforts aren't things I'm interested in - either I don't have the mindset for it, or I don't see how it can be done effectively in a direct way. My church near me now has pretty much zero in the way of internal youth programs - things for Christian kids / teens to do etc. I was thinking of helping them organise those, keep them varied, arrange speakers and so on. Nothing to do with reaching out to the world, but I'd like to help the internal church community.

Outside of youth groups, I'm out of ideas. Maybe get into writing / editing a church monthly for the adults to read? Fundraising efforts? I can't figure out what churches needs that I could provide.

Any thoughts or advice appreciated.

I think it depends on the church. Find a church near you that's working on something you think is worth helping out with. The church near me is big on helping the local community out -- cleaning the place up, setting up a big community garden, that sort of thing. Other churches are big on mission trips overseas and across the border. Others are about education, others service colleges... that sort of thing.

[godhugh]

Thanks, PM sent. Hopefully after I meet a bunch of the similarly university / post-university age members on Sunday I'll have a better sense of what projects I can jump into right now, if there are any.




I'm trying to confirm that there isn't anything like this out there yet, which seems like a massive lack of meeting a (I think) real need. Plenty of decent blogs, but nothing like a home for it... Thanks for the encouraging words

The BioLogos Foundation site is kinda like that, though it mainly focused on the interplay between science and religion. I would definitely be interested in reading a site like you describe.

[Houngan]

As an atheist I'd like the rest of the people here that are not religious to avoid this thread. I don't belong here and will not comment after this.

Because we can't help but froth at the mouth and call him names? Yer projecting there boyo.

Anyway, Habitat is a perfect fit, I did a couple of them in my teens and it was a great experience. You might see if the church has a relationship with a summer camp, they always need a ton of volunteers.

[Pogue Mahone]

I'll second Habitat for Humanity, my wife used to work for them and speaks very highly of her time there.

[RepoMan]

The church doesn't have a children and youth program? It's not doing well, then. A healthy church has people from all generations.

My wife and I are not very religious, but we are spiritual and we do believe in intentional community, so naturally we're Unitarian Universalists. At our church, we both teach religious education -- we have two kids, and one of us teaches in one kid's classroom while the other teaches in the other's, and then each year we switch.

We also go on church retreats, and are part of a "family covenant circle" which basically means a dinner get-together once a month with like six other church families, where the grownups talk about whatever (life updates, parenting and spirituality, etc.) while the kids play. It's pretty awesome.

The main reason we're part of this church is we passionately believe that the world needs more open, liberal spirituality. You can be a frickin' atheist and still come to this church, because it's about principles (love, kindness, stewardship) and not about creeds. It's pretty much a postmodern religion, and it's great that everyone else there feels the same way. Really nice to go to a church where you don't have to stand firm against conservatism every time someone opens their mouth.

[Marcus]

As an atheist I'd like the rest of the people here that are not religious to avoid this thread. I don't belong here and will not comment after this.

Ha! But you still felt the need to post a comment.

[Zak Gordon]

Nowadays, depending on the church, a really good thing an individual can do is a be a moderating voice. Too many churches now advocate hate, intolerance, telling people if they don't vote Republican they're headed to hell.

Phew! luckily he is in the UK sphere of church things, so none of the insane-christianty stuff will apply. They get about as unstable as dissagreements over deciding what type of doily to use for displaying the harvest festival veg on, in my experience.

@ Gratzby, i'll second the 'just ask your local church' approach. Your youth idea sounds good, but you'll need to touch base with any schemes in this area already happening, and your local church may already have some connections to those groups (like youth-clubs etc)?

[Nellie]

We do have our share of loonies, see the entire CoE response to Gay marriage the other day and they're supposed to be the fluffy face of things a lá Eddie Izzard. Generally we just don't pay too much attention to them, if you want to bang a drum about something knock yourself out, as long as it doesn't impact the rest of us we generally don't care that much (though the number of unelected Bishops in the house of Lords concerns me).

[Mrenda]

If I could do voluntary work (and I probably could for the next few months) I would do it with and for homeless people. These past few weeks, walking home from the pubs and clubs I've been struck by how ~something~ homeless people are. I know common advice is to not give a homeless person money, but to give them food. For quite a while I thought if I asked them if they wanted food they'd tell me to fuck off. I was heartbroken for a guy the other night, and decided to ask if he wanted some food and he jumped at the opportunity. I bought him some food, and chatted with him and I felt good, and I felt down for him. Since then I've asked a few more homeless people if they wanted food, and they've all been delighted with it.

That's the very real aspect of it though. The other aspect is I would stop and talk to them, and they all have stories and want a joke or someone to share their tale with. They all seemed very open to talking to me. And that was quite striking, I've had worse conversations with aquaintinces. And that all drives me towards wanting to do something for homeless people. I could talk about it more, but I'm tired only to say giving these people food and talking to them was amazingly enriching and something I would like to continue to do.





Repoman: Not to derail the thread, but could you give me a little information on spirituality and UU. Mainly what do they mean by spirituality. I know a little about them, and I really want to go to the local church now that I'm only a few minutes from them (although I'm working late tomorrow night so I might have to wait until next week.) I'm just not sure I can believe in a ~thing~ greater than me or us. Someone did tell me their idea of spirituality was that it's a shared idea, possibly of goodness between all of humanity.

In fact I might start a thread on what spirituality is in a day or two when I can think properly.

[dfs]

That's the very real aspect of it though. The other aspect is I would stop and talk to them, and they all have stories and want a joke or someone to share their tale with. They all seemed very open to talking to me. And that was quite striking, I've had worse conversations with aquaintinces.

Yeah. They want the dignity of being treated like a human being.

[Nightgaunt]

Gratzby -- Lots of the things you're talking about seem worthwhile, but if this is a Catholic Church then you have a pastor priest who is hopefully easy enough to talk to and should have a lot of things that need doing around the parish. He might know what charities are active in the community. Or he might know of projects that other priests/deacons/laypeople in the church are doing.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but are you attending masses regularly? From the way you're talking, it seems like you're sorta detached from the church community but now wanting to contribute to the church community. IN that case, the first way to "get involved" is to take part in the liturgies. Maybe look to take on a ministry in the regular services like being a lector or a Eucharistic minister (I'm assuming these positions exist in the UK as in the US, but might be wrong). Just some suggestions, and if I've misinterpreted your degree of involvement, I apologize.

[Gratzby]

Gratzby -- Lots of the things you're talking about seem worthwhile, but if this is a Catholic Church then you have a pastor priest who is hopefully easy enough to talk to and should have a lot of things that need doing around the parish. He might know what charities are active in the community. Or he might know of projects that other priests/deacons/laypeople in the church are doing.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but are you attending masses regularly? From the way you're talking, it seems like you're sorta detached from the church community but now wanting to contribute to the church community. IN that case, the first way to "get involved" is to take part in the liturgies. Maybe look to take on a ministry in the regular services like being a lector or a Eucharistic minister (I'm assuming these positions exist in the UK as in the US, but might be wrong). Just some suggestions, and if I've misinterpreted your degree of involvement, I apologize.

It's fine, I'm in a strange position with it. I attend mass most days of the week, participate in the relevant sacraments and so on. But I did this for the last couple of years while I was at uni in a totally solitary way - haven't met any other Catholics (or sought them out). Hence the really general question at the head of the thread - I'm trying to find out where one goes in ones faith beyond the internal / personal.


All the suggestions for which have been really helpful. Tomorrow, when I meet a group from this new church in this new town, and talk to the priests, i'll have more clear directions to move in. Coming at this having never really spoken to other Christians before, and so having little idea of what gets done at the local level, I've appreciated everything that's been posted so far.

[Mrenda]

Yeah. They want the dignity of being treated like a human being.

That's something I noticed. A lot of the people I talked to took a weird pride in what they would do. One guy in particular, quite a young guy, younger than me refused to go to the shelter or soup kitchen unless he was in a bad way. He said he didn't like to have to keep to their time, that it felt constricting. I saw that he felt he lost agency, having no control over things, and a friend pointed out that he might feel he "earns" his way through begging. That he's actually out doing something to earn his sandwich (and underwear and socks which he was begging for when I talked to him.)

And that got me thinking. A little like Bubbles in The Wire, where he really commits to kicking his drug habit when he starts working in the soup kitchen, now that he's helping other people and doing good for the world. Are there soup kitchens where the homeless and poor make their own food? There's supervision, but it doesn't follow a schedule. People can come in, and when they're new and at an "untrusted" level they can make a sandwich or something. As they begin to be recognised (and once they're sober) they can start to make more complex food, pastas, stews, that kind of thing. So they're actually doing something for themselves.

[RepoMan]

Repoman: Not to derail the thread, but could you give me a little information on spirituality and UU. Mainly what do they mean by spirituality. I know a little about them, and I really want to go to the local church now that I'm only a few minutes from them (although I'm working late tomorrow night so I might have to wait until next week.) I'm just not sure I can believe in a ~thing~ greater than me or us. Someone did tell me their idea of spirituality was that it's a shared idea, possibly of goodness between all of humanity.

In fact I might start a thread on what spirituality is in a day or two when I can think properly.

Sorry for belated reply on this. The simplest answer is to cite the seven principles of UU:

1. Each person is important.
2. Be kind in all you do.
3. We're free to learn together,
4. And search for what is true.
5. Each person needs a vote.
6. Build a fair and peaceful world.
7. We care for Earth, our home.

And that brings us back to UU.

(You can sing that to the tune of Do-Re-Mi from Sound of Music :-)

Seriously, the core idea is that our religious beliefs are less important than our actions towards each other. So we have a shared structure of liberal free-thinking and democratically self-managed congregations, and we are open to anyone who thinks that all of the above are important. Those principles are the spirit of our church, in the sense that they are the key motivations we all share and that we all seek to promote by coming together at church.

TL:DR; spirituality is something you do, not merely something you believe.

[John Many Jars]

(You can sing that to the tune of Do-Re-Mi from Sound of Music :-)

OMFG IT'S TRUE

[Mrenda]

Sorry for belated reply on this. The simplest answer is to cite the seven principles of UU:

1. Each person is important.
2. Be kind in all you do.
3. We're free to learn together,
4. And search for what is true.
5. Each person needs a vote.
6. Build a fair and peaceful world.
7. We care for Earth, our home.

And that brings us back to UU.

(You can sing that to the tune of Do-Re-Mi from Sound of Music :-)

Seriously, the core idea is that our religious beliefs are less important than our actions towards each other. So we have a shared structure of liberal free-thinking and democratically self-managed congregations, and we are open to anyone who thinks that all of the above are important. Those principles are the spirit of our church, in the sense that they are the key motivations we all share and that we all seek to promote by coming together at church.

TL:DR; spirituality is something you do, not merely something you believe.

Cheers Repoman. I've partly figured that out. I think my local Unitarian place isn't quite UU but a little more Single U, though tending towards the UU frame of mind. Very few people attend it, six including me the first time I was there, four including me the second. They have a lease on an old building right in the middle of the city that's good for another seven hundred years.

It's been nice so far. The first time there the "mass" was a "reflection mass" where everyone sat in a circle, each person said a prayer they wanted to and read something they wanted, the second was with each reading something from the European history of Unitarianism. I suppose when I'm asking about spirituality, I'm asking about how that applies to me or how I apply myself to it. I was talking to someone (a nominal buddhist) who says that she believes simply in a spirituality between people, not God created but a shared understanding and a shared ~something~ between people. And I quite like that, I find the idea of a "oneness" between us all appealing. I'm just not sure I'd be going to the Unitarian church for the right reason. I see myself going because I want to listen and learn and share with people who are open and tolerant, and not because I believe in the religious experience of the "mass."

I suppose, for the first time in my life I'm looking for guidance on spirituality and I don't know where to go to or how to find it beyond that these people seem cool. I just don't know if I'm doing this for the right reason, or if simply liking sitting down with them on a Sunday morning is reason enough. I don't know enough about them, or what they're looking for from the "community" as I wouldn't want to risk becoming involved for selfish reasons and to bring a negativity to something because I don't understand it fully. (Hence the looking for spiritual guidance.)

[RepoMan]

I think you should ask them all those questions. My strong expectation is that they will say you are perfectly welcome there and that it's quite a good place to discuss exactly those issues. But you should give them a chance to speak for themselves :-)

Having an inquiring mind and heart is plenty enough reason to want to be involved!

That's a mighty small congregation, but that might be all the better for being able to really discuss things.

[Houngan]

Cheers Repoman. I've partly figured that out. I think my local Unitarian place isn't quite UU but a little more Single U, though tending towards the UU frame of mind. Very few people attend it, six including me the first time I was there, four including me the second. They have a lease on an old building right in the middle of the city that's good for another seven hundred years.

It's been nice so far. The first time there the "mass" was a "reflection mass" where everyone sat in a circle, each person said a prayer they wanted to and read something they wanted, the second was with each reading something from the European history of Unitarianism. I suppose when I'm asking about spirituality, I'm asking about how that applies to me or how I apply myself to it. I was talking to someone (a nominal buddhist) who says that she believes simply in a spirituality between people, not God created but a shared understanding and a shared ~something~ between people. And I quite like that, I find the idea of a "oneness" between us all appealing. I'm just not sure I'd be going to the Unitarian church for the right reason. I see myself going because I want to listen and learn and share with people who are open and tolerant, and not because I believe in the religious experience of the "mass."

I suppose, for the first time in my life I'm looking for guidance on spirituality and I don't know where to go to or how to find it beyond that these people seem cool. I just don't know if I'm doing this for the right reason, or if simply liking sitting down with them on a Sunday morning is reason enough. I don't know enough about them, or what they're looking for from the "community" as I wouldn't want to risk becoming involved for selfish reasons and to bring a negativity to something because I don't understand it fully. (Hence the looking for spiritual guidance.)

Have you considered nominal Buddhism? It's a lot more active than most spiritual paths (if you're going to be serious about it and meditate) but I find it intellectually consistent with my compassionate atheist worldview.

H.

[Mrenda]

I think you should ask them all those questions. My strong expectation is that they will say you are perfectly welcome there and that it's quite a good place to discuss exactly those issues. But you should give them a chance to speak for themselves :-)

Having an inquiring mind and heart is plenty enough reason to want to be involved!

That's a mighty small congregation, but that might be all the better for being able to really discuss things.

Thanks Repo. I guess I just need to work up the courage to talk about this stuff in person.

And yeah, it is a small group. I know I've heard more names but people are busy I guess. Also, in a weird way I feel like I want to contribute to the ideas they express: tolerance, understanding, etc. In a strange way it's not so much that I get something out of the mass, but even by being present I'm contributing to some ether of understanding and acceptence.

Have you considered nominal Buddhism? It's a lot more active than most spiritual paths (if you're going to be serious about it and meditate) but I find it intellectually consistent with my compassionate atheist worldview.

H.

I wouldn't know where to begin. Ideally I'd like to talk to someone about it, but the buddhist I know lives in another city. We infrequently get to talk and when we do there's bigger issues.

[Houngan]

I wouldn't know where to begin. Ideally I'd like to talk to someone about it, but the buddhist I know lives in another city. We infrequently get to talk and when we do there's bigger issues.

If I could make a suggestion, Seung Sahn's Dropping Ashes on the Buddha and The Compass of Zen are a great, approachable explanation and introduction. However I would offer some advice:

1. Just read and let whatever sinks in, sink in. You can't really get it on the first pass.
2. Dropping Ashes is a fun book but you can get lost occasionally with the terminology. Compass is more of a "Here's buddhism in all it's aspects, here's why they come at it from different ways but arrive at the same place." It's a bit drier.
3. Don't get hung up on trying to figure out koans or trying to see past the simplicity of the idea; in the first part it's a state of mind that gives you the answer rather than logic and in the second part there's nothing behind the curtain. It's how your mind works written out in plain, simple language.

I really enjoy the Korean Zen teachers because they seem to have more of a sense of humor about things, but you should also check out other lineages like Thich Nat Hahn or the Japanese gang. I tend to avoid Western Asian buddhism because it still has quite a bit of supernatural in it.

If you have questions, ask your friend. She'll know the difference between dharma and sangha and the various words that mean things without really meaning things.

edit: And if you want to DIY, just try sitting still for ten minutes and thinking about nothing. When you start thinking about something it's not bad, but you just have to stop thinking about it. Let it drift away, and when it comes back, let it drift away again. Hard. As. Hell.