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Thread: Pocahontas Warren

  1. #31
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    Ann Althouse is a broken fucking shitty five hundred pound VCR clock.


    Which is to say that a clock that flashes twelve constantly is entitled to celebrate by flashing twelve when it has correctly flashed the motherfucking shit out of some twelve.

    Shine on, you albino diamond.*


    Having gone to law school, and knowing the weight that race is given in a number of decisions from admissions to tenure at certain schools, I know that she knows exactly what she is talking about in this situation. The questions she puts forward are not unfair strawman questions, they are simply questions for which she already knows the answer and would enjoy watching someone squirm. It is actually rare that you see a law professor demonstrate even the limpest grasp of proper cross-examination technique, but that is what you see here. As far as the, "less well qualified," jab. That's required. If the candidates are equally qualified, you can pick based on their shoe size.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystery View Post
    I'm part Sumerian. Life was fine on this planet until those Babylonian bastards moved in.
    It's funny that you say that, because I've always held a deeper grudge for the Assyrians. I guess perception is everything on these things. Maybe some Babylonian ravished your great ^ 100 grandmother, while an Assyrian got to mine. Anyway, I found our difference of emphasis amusing!

  3. #33
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    God, I am so damn interested in Affirmative Action arguments, let me fucking tell you.

  4. #34
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    You've got to understand, an Affirmative Action dispute at a law school is on a level with an Affirmative Action dispute at a law school.

  5. #35
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    Well, I'm sure Harvard hired her purely for her academic achievement at Rutgers School of Law–Newark, those Harvard guys have always aggressively sought out the brightest minds from Rutgers..right? :p

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Wardell View Post
    Well, I'm sure Harvard hired her purely for her academic achievement at Rutgers School of Law–Newark, those Harvard guys have always aggressively sought out the brightest minds from Rutgers..right? :p
    While I am not overly familiar with how law schools hire professors, the University a 'prestigious' research professor teaches at does not typically strongly correlate with how 'prestigious' the university is at. Don't get me wrong, the big names (universities and scholars) tend to pair up over time, but lots of big names establish themselves at regional universities, and some never move on for a variety of reasons. Eric Foner, a big name historian of the Civil War and Reconstruction, started his career at City College of New York.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flowers View Post
    You've got to understand, an Affirmative Action dispute at a law school is on a level with an Affirmative Action dispute at a law school.
    When asked why the infighting in academia is so fierce, Henry Kissinger responded, "Because the stakes are so small."

  8. #38
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    Not that I imagine that many here would click on a Mark Steyn link, nevertheless:

    Fauxcahontas and the melting pot

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malathor View Post
    Not that I imagine that many here would click on a Mark Steyn link, nevertheless:

    Fauxcahontas and the melting pot
    Steyn is often over the top, but damn the guy is funny.

    Just in case you're having difficulty keeping up with all these Composite-Americans, George Zimmerman, the son of a Peruvian mestiza, is the embodiment of endemic white racism and the reincarnation of Bull Connor, but Elizabeth Warren, the great-great-great-granddaughter of someone who might possibly have been listed as Cherokee on an application for a marriage license, is a heartwarming testimony to how minorities are shattering the glass ceiling in Harvard Yard. George Zimmerman, redneck; Elizabeth Warren, redskin. Under the Third Reich's Nuremberg Laws, Ms. Warren would have been classified as Aryan and Mr. Zimmerman as non-Aryan. Now it's the other way round. Progress!

  10. #40
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    Jesus, that's not funny at all. Sugar daddy?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason McCullough View Post
    Jesus, that's not funny at all. Sugar daddy?
    I laughed.

    The Julia thing is pretty funny. Usually Democrats are a little more subtle about the dream of having the government take care of everything from cradle to grave.

    Loved this line in particular:

    But, if conservatives are simply born that way, shouldn't they be covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Equal Employment Opportunities Commission?

    Aw, don't waste your time. Elizabeth Warren will be ahead of you checking the "right-wing madman" box on the grounds that she gets her high cheekbones and minimal facial hair from Genghis Khan. And "Julia" will be saying she was born conservative but thanks to Obama's new Headcase Start program was able to get ideological reassignment surgery.
    Maybe there's hope!
    Last edited by Brad Wardell; 05-05-2012 at 02:34 PM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason McCullough View Post
    Jesus, that's not funny at all. Sugar daddy?
    Humm either liberals have no sense of humor. Or you missed that latest that Barrack's NY girlfriend from Dream's of my Father, is now a composite woman. Which is convenient cause the real life woman, she was based on dumped him and not the other way around, and never said anything like "I'd be black if I could, but I can't."

    Honestly if I can laugh at Bill Mahr you should be able to laugh at Steyn or Dennis Miller.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strollen View Post
    Humm either liberals have no sense of humor. Or you missed that latest that Barrack's NY girlfriend from Dream's of my Father, is now a composite woman. Which is convenient cause the real life woman, she was based on dumped him and not the other way around, and never said anything like "I'd be black if I could, but I can't."
    Somehow, I think the answer to this question is the obvious one, or does that constitute profiling?

    Honestly if I can laugh at Bill Mahr you should be able to laugh at Steyn or Dennis Miller.
    Not likely!

    Personally I found this the funniest part:

    How does she know she's a Cherokee maiden? Well, she cites her grandfather's "high cheekbones," and says the Indian stuff is part of her family "lore." Which was evidently good enough for Harvard Lore School when they were looking to rack up a few affirmative-action credits. The former Obama Special Advisor to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and former Chairperson of the Congressional Oversight Panel now says that "I listed myself in the directory in the hopes that it might mean that I would be invited to a luncheon, a group, something that might happen with people who are like I am," and certainly not for personal career advancement or anything like that. Like everyone else, she was shocked, shocked to discover that, as The Boston Herald reported, "Harvard Law School officials listed Warren as Native American in the '90s, when the school was under fierce fire for their faculty's lack of diversity."

    So did the University of Texas, and the University of Pennsylvania. With the impertinent jackanapes of the press querying the bona fides of Harvard Lore School's first Native American female professor, the Warren campaign got to work and eventually turned up a great-great-great-grandmother designated as Cherokee in the online transcription of a marriage application of 1894.

    Hallelujah! In the old racist America, we had quadroons and octoroons. But in the new post-racial America, we have – hang on, let me get out my calculator – duoettrigintaroons! Martin Luther King dreamed of a day when men would be judged not on the color of their skin but on the content of their great-great-great-grandmother's wedding license application. And now it's here! You can read all about it in Elizabeth Warren's memoir of her struggles to come to terms with her racial identity, Dreams From My Great-Great-Great-Grandmother.

  14. #44
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    Please, you laugh at Bill Maher and Jon Stewart because they are trained professionals at the top of their game and we don't laugh at Dennis Miller because it's schtick and if I remember correctly, his writing partner died ten years ago.

    Cha-cha.







    (bobbles head.)

  15. #45
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    Sooo....If man climbed out of the trees 3 million years ago in Africa...I can claim Black, right? I'm Black. Warren is Black. Romney is Black. Ron Paul is Black. Obama is Kenyan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yamo yamo View Post
    Sooo....If man climbed out of the trees 3 million years ago in Africa...I can claim Black, right? I'm Black. Warren is Black. Romney is Black. Ron Paul is Black. Obama is Kenyan.
    I'm Klingon. Ka-pla.

  17. #47
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    This non-controversy controversy reminds me most of all of the calumny against Al Gore that claimed he invented the internet. When the right doesn't have any legitimate mud to fling, they dig up something that they can twist so that it could mean something else... and then treat that twisted re-interpretation as if it were solid fact. Gore said he helped to provide some of the funding which was used by Berners-Lee to create the protocols which underlie the internet, which he did, and somehow this becomes "Gore said he invented the internet" and then "Gore is a liar because he won't stop saying he invented the internet".

    Warren hasn't done anything illegal. She hasn't done anything immoral. She hasn't done anything dishonest. End of story. Meanwhile hypocrites and liars of the worst stripe line up to fling mud because they want to change the subject from what she has to say about bankruptcy law because they don't have a legitimate argument to make against it.

  18. #48
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    She did claim to a minority though, right? And, in reality, she's just a white lady?

    This isn't intended to be snarky, it's an honest attempt to make sure I haven't missed some crucial part of this story.

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    She did claim to a minority though, right? And, in reality, she's just a white lady?

    This isn't intended to be snarky, it's an honest attempt to make sure I haven't missed some crucial part of this story.
    Read from the beginning of the thread to get the gist of the discussion.

  20. #50
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    I did, although most of it was snark.

    I thought the jist of it was that she was something ridiculous like 1/32 Cherokee? So... she's a white lady?

    Honestly, I'm not really that interested, which is why I can't be bothered to really bother looking it up. I'm just mildly curious, because I can't tell if this is some kind of contrived made up attack against her, or if she actually did exactly what folks say she did.

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    I did, although most of it was snark.

    I thought the jist of it was that she was something ridiculous like 1/32 Cherokee? So... she's a white lady?

    Honestly, I'm not really that interested, which is why I can't be bothered to really bother looking it up. I'm just mildly curious, because I can't tell if this is some kind of contrived made up attack against her, or if she actually did exactly what folks say she did.
    The rules say that if you're 1/32 Cherokee, you can claim to be Cherokee. She is, and she did.

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLWheeljack View Post
    The rules say that if you're 1/32 Cherokee, you can claim to be Cherokee. She is, and she did.
    Actually, I don't think any of the officially recognized Cherokee groups recognize people of less than 1/16th Cherokee. I may be wrong, but from a cursory search it doesn't seem like it.

    Most require much higher, like 1/4.

  23. #53
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    The relevant requirement would be whatever Harvard was using at the time. I have no idea what that is, or if it's based on an official standard defined somewhere else.

    If 1/32 isn't allowed by the standards used by Harvard, then she lied on official forms to be included as a minority professor, and we should talk about her having lied. If 1/32 is allowed, and people don't think that's a high enough proportion, then they should have that conversation, which has to do with standards, and nothing to do with Warren.

    I don't really understand the debate in general, because it seems like simply by talking about proportions, everybody has to acknowledge that race is an arbitrary distinction, and so we're just quibbling over which arbitrary definition to use.

  24. #54
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    The gist is this--

    Race, ethnicity, identity, heritage, and community belonging are self-determined. Each of us is free to define ourselves as we choose. Individuals seeking official enrollment status for particular native groups must satisfy various blood quantum, lineage, and/or other requirements (like having an ancestor on the Dawes Roll). Different native communities have different requirements. Warren self-identified (at least for a time in her life) as being of Cherokee heritage. Warren was not claiming enrollment status for the Cherokee Nation, but it appears she would have met the requirements for the Cherokee Nation.

    As lesslucid described, the situation provided some Warren opponents with an opportunity to rehash forty years of affirmative action debates.
    Last edited by Seneca; 05-07-2012 at 07:31 AM. Reason: Clarified a sentence on requirements.

  25. #55
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    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    ...I [have] missed some crucial part of [this] story.
    Oh, sure, you can say I've taken you out of context, simplified your words, selectively edited the facts in order to make you look bad, blah blah blah, but at the end of the day, you can't deny you said this. Condemned by your own words, a man who intentionally misses the crucial parts of every story.

    &c &c

    For a less flip response, just read everything seneca said in this thread. I don't think there's anything he's left unanswered.

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    The gist is this--

    Race, ethnicity, identity, heritage, and community belonging are self-determined. Each of us is free to define ourselves as we choose. Individuals seeking official enrollment status for particular native groups must satisfy various blood quantum, lineage, and/or other requirements (like having an ancestor on the Dawes Roll). Different native communities have different requirements. Warren self-identified (at least for a time in her life) as being of Cherokee heritage. Warren was not claiming enrollment status for the Cherokee Nation, but it appears she would have met the requirements for the Cherokee Nation.

    As lesslucid described, the situation provided some Warren opponents with an opportunity to rehash forty years of affirmative action debates.
    I don't have any idea what the deal is with the affirmative action stuff..
    But I'm not seeing anything that suggests that 1/32 blood is enough to be considered a Cherokee.

    I also don't understand the argument "Well, she wasn't actually applying for enrollment in the Cherokee nation.. she was just saying she was a Cherokee." I mean, what does that even mean? If something has a real impact on things, like whether you get a job, or whether you are eligible for assistance from the government, or whatever... you can't just say you're a minority. There are, presumably, actual rules about that kind of stuff.

    For instance, in my job we compete for various government contracts. Certain other companies have advantages, like being owned by minority groups.... Being inuit owned, for instance, confers very special status which gives certain large competitive advantages in certain cases.

    I'm thinking that you can't just say you're an Eskimo and get those advantages, right? Seems like the same kind of thing applies to Warren's case, if it was actually having some kind of real impact on hiring or something.

    If it's not something that has any effect on your life, then sure.. say you're whatever you want. But if it starts to have real, measurable impact, then it starts to require real, measurable criteria.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLWheeljack View Post
    The rules say that if you're 1/32 Cherokee, you can claim to be Cherokee. She is, and she did.
    At least while it was useful. Then, some years ago, she stopped claiming it when it was no longer useful.

    Good article on the subject that helps put this "non-controversy" into perspective:
    http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/all-fall-down/

  28. #58
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    Timex, let me deal with the first part of your question. There are different bands of Cherokees. The Cherokee Nation (generally living in OK), The United Keetowah Band of Cherokee (also OK), and the Eastern Cherokee, (mostly in NC) have different requirements for enrollment. As part of the enrollment process, the Eastern require 1/16th blood quantum; the United Keetowah (I believe it is 1/4). For the Cherokee Nation (Warren is from OK), there is no actual blood quantum requirement (the focus is more on proof of lineage and proof that an ancestor is listed on the Dawes Rolls). Warren claims her Cherokee heritage through an ancestor which, if it where an issue, equates to 1/32 blood quantum.

    As an aside, blood quantum is a contentious for native communities. Some have raised the level needed, while others (particularly in smaller population groups) have lowered or do not recognize the requirement. Over time, maintaining a strict blood quantum will be difficult as individuals marry across the spectrum of society. Some would prefer enrollment and citizenship requirements to be more culturally based (knowing the language, history, being an active member of the community, etc.).

    When critics of Warren first raised this issue in the media, they questioned her native legitimacy and claimed she was playing Indian. These critics, including the Brown camp, quickly realized they stepped into a minefield of identity and heritage issues and shifted the tone and focus of the charge to an anti-affirmative action rallying cry. This leads to the second part of your question, which I will leave to others to address.
    Last edited by Seneca; 05-07-2012 at 09:39 AM. Reason: typos

  29. #59
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    Timex, let me deal with the first part of your question. There are different bands of Cherokees. The Cherokee Nation (generally living in OK), The United Keetowah Band of Cherokee (also OK), and the Eastern Cherokee, (mostly in NC) have different requirements for enrollment. As part of the enrollment process, the Eastern require 1/16th blood quantum; the United Keetowah (I believe it is 1/4). For the Cherokee Nation (Warren is from OK), there is no actual blood quantum requirement (the focus is more on proof of lineage and proof that an ancestor is listed on the Dawes Rolls). Warren claims her Cherokee heritage through an ancestor that, which, if it where an issue, equates to 1/32 blood quantum.
    So... she doesn't qualify as a member of any of the Cherokee groups. That's the same stuff I saw. She's apparently one generation too far out to meet the reqs of the most loose requirement.

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    So... she doesn't qualify as a member of any of the Cherokee groups. That's the same stuff I saw. She's apparently one generation too far out to meet the reqs of the most loose requirement.
    Timex, how could you possibly read what I just posted and draw that conclusion?

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