Mac Snobs Drive Me Nuts!

[Timex]

I'm still waiting for your studies where Fitts' Law is used to show that Windows is more efficient than the Mac UI. I'm sure the equations will be in those studies.

You understand that the strength of Fitts' law is that it shows a relationship, which tends to correlate strongly with actual usability study results, but which doesn't actually require usability studies?

That's kind of the point. You're able to make estimates of efficiency without actually running the usability studies, based purely upon the mathematical relationship of the distance and target size in two interactions.

I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say that you can't really support you claim that Fitts' law has "other formulations". Because, well, it doesn't. Fitts' law is an equation, that's well defined.

First of all, you don't know where in the filesystem I am navigating from or to, so it's ridiculous to make claims about how many clicks you can use to get there.

It's really not, because I'm always going to be able to do it in fewer clicks my way.

Secondly, I already explained that in Windows 7 (which I am using), the sidebar file tree does not automatically navigate to the current location

It does for me. Maybe you have that feature turned off for some reason.
I think there's an option in the browser to automatically navigate to the current location, and I had thought it was on by default.

So you're trying to argue, based on no knowledge of what I'm doing and ignoring how my UI works, that you can do what I need to do with fewer clicks. Patently ridiculous.

No, I know how my UI works, and it's Windows 7.. and I know what you're trying to do based on your description, and it's obvious that I can do it in fewer clicks compared to your desired ability of being able to open windows displaying exactly what you're already looking at.

No, it's easier to navigate relative to my current location, instead of having to start navigating from scratch using a one-inch-wide file tree in the margins of my current window.

Again, shake your fist at the notion of a hierarchical tree display of a file system all you want. Most people don't find navigating a tree difficult at all.

I did count those user interactions. It's still quicker for me to open a new window and navigate from there.

No, it's more clicks. It's not quicker.
This isn't a matter of opinion. This is simply counting clicks.

[Fishbreath]

This thread:

I read it for the humorous comments between the actual argument.

[Brian Rubin]

There's an argument?

[CLWheeljack]

There's an argument?

Is that an ignore list joke?

In any case, it's probably time to move the thread to P&R. Can we get a moderator to do that?

[WarrenM]

There's a shouting match ... does that count?

[jason]

Mac User: I would like to do everything I do on a Mac, exactly the way I do it on a Mac, except in Windows.
Windows User: Well, you can't do things exactly the same way, because Windows isn't MacOS, but here are the equivalent actions.
Mac User: Windows is a piece of shit.


Windows User: I would like to do everything I do on a Windows PC, exactly the way I do it on a Windows PC, except in MacOS.
Mac User: Well, you can't do things exactly the same way, because MacOS isn't Windows, but here are the equivalent actions.
Windows User: MacOS is a piece of shit.

[Timex]

Heh, I actually use both.. although I think my mac usage tends to fall more in line with unix usage. Been a while since I even did that though.

[Andy Bates]

Bzzt! It's automatic for all common functions unless explicitly disabled. Or F9.

You asked me where the command was to recalculate formulas, and my answer was correct. It's not correct to answer, "You don't need to recalculate because it's automatic." And yes, F9 is the shortcut key. So what's your point again?

Really, it's not even worth trying with you is it, you're on a rampage about stuff which isn't as earthshakingly important as you seem to think it is, and is quite contrary to modern work.

More sour grapes. Just accept that it's more difficult to discover commands under Windows, instead of saying, "Whatever. This argument is dumb."

[Brian Rubin]

Not sour grapes, Andy, sweet sweet kool aid. Keep drinking the sweet, sweet nectar buddy. ;)

[Andy Bates]

You understand that the strength of Fitts' law is that it shows a relationship, which tends to correlate strongly with actual usability study results, but which doesn't actually require usability studies?

You do understand that Fitts' Law often has theoretical results that are verified by usability studies, right? And yes, there are plenty of examples of Fitts' Law being applied to navigating a two-dimensional space. But you already know this.

It's really not, because I'm always going to be able to do it in fewer clicks my way.

First of all, if you don't know what the interaction is, you can't definitively say that your way takes fewer clicks. Secondly, counting the number of clicks is not an objective measure of speed, since you also have to take into account the time to scroll through that little tree view on the side. (By the way, did you notice that you can't just mouse over to the tree view and scroll down? You have to click on it first, before it gains scrolling focus.) And finally, you're missing the point completely because a computer should adjust to the way you work, not the other way around. It's a typical Microsoft UI decision to include two different ways of navigating the filesystem in the same window, and forcing the user to use both of them simultaneously to accomplish what he wants to do.

It does for me. Maybe you have that feature turned off for some reason.
I think there's an option in the browser to automatically navigate to the current location, and I had thought it was on by default.

I'm using the default UI settings, so whatever that setting is must be turned off by default. But again, this is all beside the point, which is that basic UI functionality is undocumented, not displayed in any menu, and can only be accessed through a keyboard shortcut that is not displayed anywhere. That's bad UI design in anyone's book.

Again, shake your fist at the notion of a hierarchical tree display of a file system all you want. Most people don't find navigating a tree difficult at all.

Yeah thanks, I've been using it for decades on the Mac. It's not an issue of being difficult; it's an issue of being forced to use a secondary navigation technique (shoehorned in the margins of the current window) because Microsoft couldn't be bothered to make a basic UI command discoverable.

No, it's more clicks. It's not quicker.
This isn't a matter of opinion. This is simply counting clicks.

Since you were counting, exactly how many clicks did it take?

[Andy Bates]

Not sour grapes, Andy, sweet sweet kool aid. Keep drinking the sweet, sweet nectar buddy. ;)

If you have examples of Mac UI shortcomings, I'd be glad to hear them. The Kool-Aid drinkers seem to be the ones who excuse a UI that doesn't document its features.

[CLWheeljack]

If you have examples of Mac UI shortcomings, I'd be glad to hear them. The Kool-Aid drinkers seem to be the ones who excuse a UI that doesn't document its features.

As I mentioned upthread, I find the fact that the top menu bar changes based on which window has focus to be really confusing when you can have applications without any visible windows, but still have that application have focus.

The top menu bar may have some other tradeoffs that recommend it, but I find that confusion to be a larger negative.

[Timex]

First of all, if you don't know what the interaction is, you can't definitively say that your way takes fewer clicks.

Based on your description of the interaction, I can definitively say that it will take fewer clicks.

Feel free to present any specific case with your click count, and I will show that I can do it with less.

Since you were counting, exactly how many clicks did it take?

For cases where the directory was already displayed, it took two, the same number of clicks it takes for your method to open the directory you are currently in. So, for a large number of directories, this beats your method since in two clicks I've already got the other directory open in another window, while you will be forced to navigate to it.

For directories which are not displayed, I will have to perform the same number of clicks as you, or less. I'll expand the structure to the location I want, using the same number of clicks as you to navigate through the hierarchy in cases where I'm going down... fewer in the case of going up, and then the same two clicks to open that directory as you use to click the menu item.

So it's always going to be less than or equal to the number of clicks you use. In most cases, it will be less.

[ReptileHouse]

Meh. I use OSX and Windows pretty much the exact same way. I just open up a bunch of console/terminal windows and go about my business.

Can we fight about backslash vs. forward slash as a path delimiter? That one's always entertaining. Or maybe line ending wars?

[WarrenM]

Meh. I use OSX and Windows pretty much the exact same way. I just open up a bunch of console/terminal windows and go about my business.

How painful is to travel through time like that? Who is President when you're at work?

[Brian Rubin]

If you have examples of Mac UI shortcomings, I'd be glad to hear them. The Kool-Aid drinkers seem to be the ones who excuse a UI that doesn't document its features.

They're not shortcomings, damnit, they're DIFFERENCES. Macs work better for you, fine. Windows works better for me, fine.

[Andy Bates]

Based on your description of the interaction, I can definitively say that it will take fewer clicks.

Feel free to present any specific case with your click count, and I will show that I can do it with less.

Just to show how ridiculous your claim is, here you go: My window is currently open in Documents, Folder A, Folder A1, Folder A1a. I want a new window open on Documents, Folder Z, Folder Z9, Folder Z1z. Counting an undocumented keyboard shortcut as a click, I can get there in two clicks. Please show me how you can do it in fewer clicks.

[Andy Bates]

They're not shortcomings, damnit, they're DIFFERENCES. Macs work better for you, fine. Windows works better for me, fine.

Having a command that is only available through a keyboard shortcut, and not discoverable anywhere else in the UI, is a shortcoming.

[jason]

Just to show how ridiculous your claim is, here you go: My window is currently open in Documents, Folder A, Folder A1, Folder A1a. I want a new window open on Documents, Folder Z, Folder Z9, Folder Z1z. Counting an undocumented keyboard shortcut as a click, I can get there in two clicks. Please show me how you can do it in fewer clicks.

I think you are going to have to explain that in more detail. I was under the impression that it took at least one click, if not two clicks, to select the command from the menu that opened a new window to the exact same folder you were in. How do you navigate without clicks or keystrokes?

[Brian Rubin]

Having a command that is only available through a keyboard shortcut, and not discoverable anywhere else in the UI, is a shortcoming.

I use Windows all the time, and I can't even think of an example of this. I use the menus all the time, and it works great for me. If it doesn't work for you, fine, but that doesn't mean the whole system is flawed, it just means you don't like it. ;)

[WarrenM]

[Brian Rubin]

Sorry!

[Andy Bates]

I use Windows all the time, and I can't even think of an example of this. I use the menus all the time, and it works great for me. If it doesn't work for you, fine, but that doesn't mean the whole system is flawed, it just means you don't like it. ;)

As I pointed out, the "Open New Window" command in the File Explorer is only available through the Cmd-N shortcut. There is no corresponding menu item that anyone has been able to find. Having an undiscoverable keyboard shortcut without a related menu item is a UI shortcoming.

I think you are going to have to explain that in more detail. I was under the impression that it took at least one click, if not two clicks, to select the command from the menu that opened a new window to the exact same folder you were in. How do you navigate without clicks or keystrokes?

THERE IS NO MENU COMMAND for opening a new window to the exact same folder you're in! That's what I've been trying to explain. It is a command that is not documented, and not discoverable. You would literally have to try various keyboard shortcuts to even know that it exists.

[jason]

Then I'm very confused, because I thought you were asked to explain how many clicks it took to do it on a Mac.

[Brian Rubin]

As I pointed out, the "Open New Window" command in the File Explorer is only available through the Cmd-N shortcut. There is no corresponding menu item that anyone has been able to find. Having an undiscoverable keyboard shortcut without a related menu item is a UI shortcoming.

Huh, my file explorer has a sidebar with folders in it, and I can just right click a folder in there and select "Open in new window". I do that all the time. Is there a problem there?

[Andy Bates]

Huh, my file explorer has a sidebar with folders in it, and I can just right click a folder in there and select "Open in new window". I do that all the time. Is there a problem there?

Yes, I could look in the sidebar, navigate to the folder that I'm already in, then right-click on that folder and select "Open in New Window." Or I just use the command "Open New Window", which does the exact same thing without having to access the sidebar or redundantly navigate to the folder that I'm already in. Unfortunately, even though "Open New Window" is accessible through the keyboard shortcut Ctrl-N, it is not a menu command that is visible in the Windows UI.

As I said, there is no benefit to having an application's functionality missing from the UI. This is not an issue of preferences; this is not an issue of, "Well, I work more efficiently when there are important commands that are absent from the UI." This is a case where an important function (important enough to have a keyboard shortcut, apparently) is simply absent from the UI. It is not discoverable, and it is not obvious. It is just missing. That is a UI flaw.

[Timex]

Then I'm very confused, because I thought you were asked to explain how many clicks it took to do it on a Mac.

Yes.. I'm not sure what Andy is talking about now.

[Andy Bates]

Then I'm very confused, because I thought you were asked to explain how many clicks it took to do it on a Mac.

I told Timex that I wanted to navigate by opening a new File Explorer window and navigating from there; he said definitively (without knowing exactly what I was navigating to) that he could navigate to the same location and open it in a second window in fewer clicks than it took me to do it my way. I'm curious how he can manage it in one click or less.

[Timex]

I told Timex that I wanted to navigate by opening a new File Explorer window and navigating from there; he said definitively (without knowing exactly what I was navigating to) that he could navigate to the same location and open it in a second window in fewer clicks than it took me to do it my way. I'm curious how he can manage it in one click or less.

I pointed out exactly how I can always do it in less clicks than you.

You can't do it one click.
(or less? Lol? Are you traversing your file system WITH YOUR MIND?)

[jason]

Right... your way. As in, how you do it on the Mac, because before being told about Ctrl+N, you said it could not be done at all in Windows.

Microsoft is pretty annoying about hiding features they don't think the average user needs. However, assuming you are using Windows 7 (this may work in other versions too, but I don't have them to check them), in Explorer, on the menu, go to Tools then Folder Options. Then check the box for "Automatically expand to current folder" and click OK. Now, you won't need to navigate to the current folder as it will keep the tree automatically open to the folder you are currently in. I want to say this was the default in XP, and maybe even Vista - no idea why 7's default is to not have the tree follow the current location.

That said, I don't think I have ever run into anyone other than you that wanted to open the folder they are currently in in a new window. It just isn't something people need to do. The fact that you can so easily in a Mac is probably an accident, not a design decision. However, once you've fixed the tree to follow current folder, using the tree to locate the new folder you want, right click and open it in a new window has got to be simpler and faster than opening a new window to your current locations and then doing extra navigation.