Reply With QuoteWhat, somebody picking on Saint Ron again?
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/16/arts/16RICH.html
Kind of: it's entirely about the controversial stuff that got the CBS miniseries pulled. This one doesn't whitewash anything, though, so god only knows what kind of screeching it'll kick up.
Dr. Everett Koop, the frustrated surgeon general who tried to enlist Reagan in the AIDS battle late in his second term, gave a speech to a Kaiser Family Foundation symposium in 2001 explaining what went on in the White House during the 80's. In Dr. Koop's account, he was kept out of all AIDS discussions for the administration's first five years, while "the advisers to the president took the stand" that homosexuals and intravenous drug users were "only getting what they justly deserve." In Mr. Cannon's biography, anti-Koop forces within the administration are identified as William Bennett, Gary Bauer and Patrick Buchanan — all of whom, uncoincidentally enough, were vociferous in the assault on "The Reagans."
What, somebody picking on Saint Ron again?
From columnist Jim Pinkerton, an aide in the Reagan White House from 1981 to 1983."Reagan was the opposite of a gay-basher. (There was) a stink when Nancy Reagan invited her interior decorator and his boyfriend to stay overnight at the White House. Some of the social right was upset when he (allowed that). That's how opposite he was of the tyrannical, judgmental figure he is portrayed in this movie. He was a guy from Hollywood. He dealt with gays all his life. He was not a homophobe and a bigot."
It's perfectly possible to be a racist and have black friends/coworkers.....
I.e., I'll believe those who confirm what I want to believe about Reagan and rationalize away those who offer differing views. ;)Originally Posted by Jason McCullough
How do you explain him saying that AIDS is "maybe God's judgement" or whatever, then? Why didn't he say a word about it for 7 years?
Where did Reagan ever say that? He was good friends with quite a few people who died of AIDS, for example he was at Rock Hudson's bedside several times.
Did he do much about AIDs during his terms, or was it a priority for him? Probably not (although Clinton also didn't do diddley about it other than talk in a sympathetic tone.)
In the UK during the '80s there was a program called Spitting Image ( http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/S/...ittingimag.htm ).
There was a running gag of "The President's Brain is Missing." Even more enjoyable when his Alzheimers was revealed (if you are sick son-of-a-bitch commie fag :-)).
He probably thought Rock was his economic advisor.
That was one of the most controversial aspects of the CBS mini-series -- the inclusion of that statement, which apparently was never said by Reagan. Pretty defamatory, unless he actually said it, which seems unlikely since everyone associated with him denies it, and CBS doesn't have any evidence to the contrary -- it was literally the writer of his biography shooting from the hip and attributing views to Reagan.
The miniseries also has him stating that "I am the antichrist", picking the idea for the missile defense out of a pulpy 1940s movie, rating out other actors to the McCarthy showtrials -- there's no substantiation, whatsoever, for any of that, and it's clearly defamatory if it's not true.
Sssh, lies only count if you are a Republican president. Everything else is just a much needed relative evaluation of what reality must be for the Greater Good.
Who was it, exactly, who said that in this thread?Sssh, lies only count if you are a Republican president. Everything else is just a much needed relative evaluation of what reality must be for the Greater Good.
Oh, I should have clarified: Reagan didn't say the line in the TV movie, but he really did say stuff like that, had a lot of really homophobic advisors. From the Rich article:
Not that I think he was a homophobe; just a product of his age. But he did drop the ball on AIDS.Edmund Morris, who wrote "Dutch," the Reagan biography both solicited and authorized by the former president's inner circle, quoted him as saying, "Maybe the Lord brought down this plague" because "illicit sex is against the Ten Commandments."
The rest:
Where Reagan got his Star Wars missile shield idea from is up for debate. Frances Fitzgerald goes over it in his excellent Way Out There in the Blue.
The official story: Reagan, a politically savvy and informed individual, goes to Cheyenne Mountain in 1979, boggles that we have no defenses against nuclear weapons, and then embraces missile defense after some aides inform him of it. It's patently ridiculous; Reagan had never heard of the ABM treaty before?
A speculative alternative is that Reagan really was influenced by movies he had seen, in a way that's hard to believe - remember him talking about that "A Wing and a Prayer" movie where a ball-turret gunner was trapped in the turret as if it actually happened? Reagan's first SDI speech strongly paralleled the dialogue in Torn Curtain (Hitchcock, '66); was it coincidence? Maybe, but it's less silly a story than the official one.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...lance&n=507846
"I am the anti-christ": Reagan did muse about the possibility that the USSR and US were the Gog and Magog of the Book of Revelations, and was disturbed by the possibility that implied he was the anti-christ.
"McCarthy rat": there's a lot of evidence that he did out some people to McCarthy.
Basically everything in that movie that was attacked was something that was true, just not that exact quote.
It's alrught to fudge quotes if the person you're misquoting is evil...
Wow.
I've got to find the column; I could swear it was George Will. The year after Reagan left office, when America was still holding him up in tremendous admiration, the Iron Curtain was crumbling, he said in a column that I thought at the time was ridiculous: "Mark my words - the week after Reagan's death, the left will mount a tremendous attack on his presidency and his character. It is just not in their (character - can't remember the word he used) to allow America to remember a Republican as one of the great President's in America's history. The Saturday Night Live parodies will be held up as the historic truth." And so on. At the time I thought Will had lost a marble or two (I'm pretty sure it was Will who made the prediction) but I guess Alzheimers is close enough to death to make his prediction true.
Looking through the index on Amazon I see no mention of Stefan Possony or even The Strategy of Technology. Color me unimpressed.
So Democrats shouldn't be offended when a biopic comes out with JFK popping some pills and shouting 'I loves the pussy!'?
And wearing a Cowboy suit to bed and telling Jackie to whinny. And spending time walking and talking with his anti-semite and pro-Nazi Dad, saying things like "Yeah, Dad, I know where you're coming from, but we really can't say them in public anymore." And boffing Marilyn, and conspiring to have her killed. And fixing the election results in Chicago. Etc.Looking through the index on Amazon I see no mention of Stefan Possony or even The Strategy of Technology. Color me unimpressed.
So Democrats shouldn't be offended when a biopic comes out with JFK popping some pills and shouting 'I loves the pussy!'?
Somehow no one has any desire to make movie like that about JFK. (thanks goodness.)
Precisely like I said, nobody has any indication he said anything like the line in the movie script, which was one of the more controversial aspects, because the comment was taken from his biographer shooting from the hip and attributing views to Reagan (and then the script extrapolating even further beyond those comments, which are denied by the Reagan camp).
You've actually proved none of it was.Basically everything in that movie that was attacked was something that was true, just not that exact quote.
Did Reagan drop the ball during the early years of the AIDS crisis? Sure -- I guess you could decide that with the benefit of hindsight - but only if every single leader at the time, particularly Mitterand, dropped the ball and then kicked it over the cliff, by comparison.
...and not listening to his advisors in the Cuban Missile Crises and exclaiming "the public thinks I'm a wimp - if we have to break a few eggs, so be it", and sending out the secret service to go pick up random women to help "serve the country". And having Jackie being a premeditated gold-digger, who just ups the ante after she loses one sugar daddy.And wearing a Cowboy suit to bed and telling Jackie to whinny. And spending time walking and talking with his anti-semite and pro-Nazi Dad, saying things like "Yeah, Dad, I know where you're coming from, but we really can't say them in public anymore." And boffing Marilyn, and conspiring to have her killed. And fixing the election results in Chicago. Etc.
All of those JFK "statements", or actions, are no more distorted, or ridiculously extrapolated, or heavily fictionalized from out of context statements --- than the crap in the Reagan biography script. The partisanship in U.S. politics is at a ridiculous low, when defaming someone is considered a great achievement.
Correct. Jeff and Desslock's stuff don't have a comparison in the movie, though.So Democrats shouldn't be offended when a biopic comes out with JFK popping some pills and shouting 'I loves the pussy!'?
Well excuse me, but Google doesn't give very useful results for Reagan history.You've actually proved none of it was.
Anyway, are you telling me Reagan *didn't* muse on the US & USSR as Gog & Magog?
Like Oppenheimer musing on being Shiva?
I'm a liberal. I'm a Democrat. Forget about all this AIDS and Script stuff. It's offensive enough that they cast James Brolin. I mean, if you can't even put up the appearence of fairness, why bother? (Nothing personal against Brolin but how would Dems react if they cast Ann Coulter as Hillary in a Clinton movie.)
That depends. Is she wearing a leopard print miniskirt and make a complete ass out of herself?
Brolin talked about killing Republicans journalists? Didn't know he was a big time Democrat, though.
He's married to Streisand Jason. Brolin might not have enough personality on his own to actually have a party affiliation.
Heh.
Then don't rely upon it for that purpose.
No, I'm saying that there's no evidence (or even reason to believe) that Reagan said "I am the anti-christ" so attributing that statement to him, as the script does, is ridiculous and defamatory.
I honestly think it's identical --- there's no doubt that Kennedy's father had some pretty scary views and associations --there's no doubt that Kennedy didn't listen to advisors during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and was concerned about being appearing like he wasn't a push-over -- to extrapolate from that background that he loved his dad and therefore shared his views and that he was a loose cannon during the Cuban Missile Crisis is an -identical- exercise to concluding that Reagan hated gays and thought God was justly killing them, and that that he was a buffoon who got his ideas from pictureshows and that he, himself, concluded he was the epitomy of evil in his faith.Jeff and Desslock's stuff don't have a comparison in the movie, though
It's all (both the Reagan and JFK examples) ridiculous, destructive, defamatory, and embarrassing.
The movie didn't say Reagan hated gays. Ok on the rest, I guess, though I think conservatives can't quite come to grasp with how kooky Reagan was in some ways.
Horrific deficit spending, Iran-Contra, backwards AIDS policy, widening gap between the rich and middle-class, decreased spending on mental health and resulting increase in homeless population, and general goofiness (horoscopes, Reagan's speech about UFOs, Nancy telling Ron what to say at a press conference, his naps, etc.).
What about his naps? I hope you are not faulting a man for his sleeping habits, as long as he did not sleep during briefings etc.
He did, actually.
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