Reply With QuoteI'm sure the crazy-ass alums will pony up, or not. Who cares either way? If Pennsylvanians don't want to pay for fines and lawsuits they should police their universities a bit better.Originally Posted by Sarkus
Multi-year bowl bans and scholarship reductions would be my guess, but six years seems a bit much. Two or three will still take several years to recover from. Lots of sources say a $30-60m fine, but that just adds to the financial costs I mentioned above and again raises the question of who exactly is going to be paying for all of this. Bankrupting Penn State doesn't seem like it accomplishes much if in the end all it really means is that Pennsylvania taxpayers have to cover the losses.
Also, if the NCAA is going to implement scholarship and other stuff for this year they better have a plan in place to help out the kids and families totally fucked over because this is being implemented so late. Telling someone expecting to be in football camp at Penn State in two weeks that "sorry, you can't go there anymore" is a disaster for that person no matter how quickly you promise to process their transfer paperwork.
Last edited by Sarkus; 07-23-2012 at 12:50 AM.
I'm sure the crazy-ass alums will pony up, or not. Who cares either way? If Pennsylvanians don't want to pay for fines and lawsuits they should police their universities a bit better.
It doesn't "bankrupt" Penn State.
Like most--if not all--Division I major athletic programs, the athletic budget is kept whole and separate from any academics and research budgets. NCAA financial penalties would hurt the athletic program, but would not be payable from the school's academic budget.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that none of the players on this football team--not any of them--have given serious thought to where they'd like to go if things go pear-shaped tomorrow. They're going to be caught totally by surprise tomorrow.
The alums aren't going to be able to cover those losses and if the goal is the attack the culture around the football program, the penalties need to attack that culture, not a wider group of people. Otherwise they are creating a lot of additional victims.
I do also wonder if someone is going to challenge the NCAA's authority on this. There is already plenty of speculation that this probably goes well beyond the mandate. And while Penn State itself won't challenge it, that doesn't mean alumni or someone else won't.
They're goin' down hard."Emmert has been given full reign by the pansy presidents (at other universities) to make his own decision," said the trustee, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "
The fact that Penn State is signatory on the contract giving the NCAA authority over their intercollegiate athletics probably renders that null and void. They joined voluntarily and voluntarily ceded authority to the NCAA as an authority.
If Penn State has a problem with it, I'm sure the NCAA will let them leave. Good luck finding opponents.
I said bankrupt as a general statement about the level of financial costs this could very well add up to. The NCAA's fines may very well be set up in a way that it comes soley from athletic department revenue streams, but that also impacts the schools larger budget because of where those surpluses normally go. Penn State's athletic department has been one of the most profitable in the country and that surplus isn't going into a bank account for future use, its being given back to the school. Who probably now rely on that to some degree. And then there is whatever Penn State ends up paying out in the civil lawsuits that are coming. So by default any NCAA financial and other penalties that reduce the revenue of the athletic department does, in fact, impact the ability of the school to meet other obligations - such as paying for the cost of their non-revenue sports and covering the those lawsuits.
Whether they've thought about it or not doesn't change the financial and other impacts of having to make a sudden change in course this late. Travel and relocation plans have to be changed, that could mean higher costs, the need to travel out to an alternate school ahead of time, etc. Its not an incidental impact on a kid heading off to college or his family to have to make a relatively last minute change, even if you have thought about it. Its not like they've had a chance to find out what schools might still be interested in them.
Well, yeah. It's not entirely fair maybe, but institutional misdeeds require an institutional response. And calling the alums and students here "victims" is a little bit laughable. On the scale of injustice, this one doesn't even register.
You really think the alumni have standing to sue? What injury did they suffer exactly?I do also wonder if someone is going to challenge the NCAA's authority on this. There is already plenty of speculation that this probably goes well beyond the mandate. And while Penn State itself won't challenge it, that doesn't mean alumni or someone else won't.
That the Freeh report found the Board of Trustees negligent at best and willfully participant at worst in promulgating the coverup means that the school's academic standing and funding probably *should* suffer from the loss of athletic department revenue. The VP and AD at the school have been charged for their roles in committing perjury. My gosh, this is a "whole university" thing regarding the leadership of the school. They made some dreadful choices, and choices have consequences. That's how things happen sometimes.
The response internally from Penn State regarding the ongoing investigations into Sandusky's child abuse and how long it happened and who knew and covered up has generally been defiant. The school has said some of the right things in official releases...but then you've got folks on the campus and in the halls of leadership there basically still defending the indefensible and I think the NCAA is going to send a message.
Finally--if you think that Penn State is going to be financially hurt by dwindling athletics revenue, wait 'til you see the lawsuits coming from Sandusky's victims. Those are the ones that will leave a mark.
Last edited by triggercut; 07-23-2012 at 05:45 AM.
Exactly. But the question is who is that going to leave a mark on? Anything they have to pay out and all the lost revenue they have to cover (all said and done) isn't just going to impact the athletic department, its going to impact the whole school. And the whole school is financially backed and secured by the state of Pennsylvania.
Please note that I have consistently agreed that Penn State should be held responsible for whatever comes of the civil lawsuits. I simply don't see the need for further punitive financial penalties when what they will be facing from that is already going to be so overwhelming.
Last edited by Sarkus; 07-23-2012 at 01:57 AM.
LOL.
I don't know shit about football or NCAA but just the fact that this was a criminal offense and not some kind of sports ethics violation doesn't mean that NCAA shouldn't gut the system. Who cares if all the people involved are dead or apprehended? There needs to be a deterrent for other schools so shit like this never happens again.
Part of Penn State's ability to market itself to new recruits during the last two decades has been the veneer of integrity and character offered by Coach Paterno and his staff and the entire athletic program. While other schools around the country and even in their own conference have struggled with various malfeasances that are par for the course when you bring 100+ young men together, away from home for the first time, with Penn State things were always different. They were squeaky clean. That was the Penn State brand sold to recruits.
That at an institutional level the higher ups at Penn State knew that there was this dark event that had happened and would sully that brand and elected to cover it up and allow it to continue so as to maintain their ability to sell integrity to their recruits is absolutely the kind of thing the NCAA is there to clean up and punish, and they are absolutely within their purview to do so.
I agree that the NCAA should do something, as a good chunk of the malfeasance in question was done to protect the football program.
Of the list of penalties that Triggercut put up, the one I liked most was the ability for other schools to grab up Penn athletes and not have the scholarship cut into their limit -- that nicely protects the educational possibilities of the kids that worked hard to get a scholarship to Penn State.
The only heartburn I have over the sanctions is the impact to the "civilian" population of Happy Valley. No football games means a loss of income for the folks that would otherwise have been working the concession stands, the janitorial crews, the parking attendants, the local grocery stores, etc.
A quick question: would the sanctions apply only to the football program, or would Penn lose the ability to issue scholarships for all sports?
I'd assume just for football.
$60m in fines, paid to abuse charities
4 year postseason/bowl ban
loss of 10 schollies/year for four years
free transfers for all current and incoming players without having to sit a year.
Also, all wins from 1998-2011 have been vacated.
Bobby Bowden is smiling.
IMO it's still lax. The football team should have been shut down for a year as well.
Last edited by Clay; 07-23-2012 at 06:32 AM.
It's worse than even that.
Charles Robinson @CharlesRobinson
When we refer to the last death penalty in college football history, we can't say SMU. We have to say Penn State. It's worse than SMU.
Gabe DeArmond @GabeDeArmond
Some are saying they think PSU got off to easy. Those saying that simply don't understand how severe those penalties are.
Terez A. Paylor @terezpaylor
Hard not to think of the way recruiters swooped into SMU in "Pony Express." A feeding frenzy is coming to Happy Valley, Walking Dead-style.
Charles Robinson @CharlesRobinson
After speaking to sources yesterday, it was clear this was going to be bad. But this is worse than anything I expected. Total wreckage.
Charles Robinson @CharlesRobinson
Penn State signing "consent decree" is NCAA-speak. What it means is that PSU was fully on board. These are basically self-imposed penalties.
I guess I'm one of those that doesn't understand football enough to understand how severe the sanctions are.
emphasis added by me. Huge.The NCAA understands that the Penn State sanctions announced today will impact both current and incoming football student-athletes. As a result, the NCAA will provide appropriate and immediate relief of some NCAA rules for all eligible football student-athletes.
If football student-athletes elect to consider transferring from Penn State, several provisions of NCAA legislation will be set aside to allow those students both a simpler transfer process and the opportunity to participate immediately wherever they choose to go:
Football student-athletes who transfer will not have to sit out a year of competition. Any incoming or currently enrolled football student-athlete will be immediately eligible upon transfer or initial enrollment at an NCAA institution, provided they are admitted and otherwise eligible per NCAA regulations.
Penn State will release any incoming student-athletes from the National Letter of Intent.
Permission-to-contact rules will be suspended. Penn State cannot restrict in any way a student-athlete from pursuing a possible transfer. Student-athletes must simply inform Penn State of their interest in discussing transfer options with other schools. Interested schools also must inform Penn State of their intention to open discussions with the student-athlete.
Official and unofficial visit rules will be loosened. Any incoming or currently enrolled football student-athletes interested in taking an official or unofficial visit will be permitted to do so during the 2012-13 academic year, no matter how many visits they took during their recruitment. Institutions seeking to provide an official visit to a student who already visited the school as many times as NCAA legislation allows can seek relief from the NCAA on a case-by-case basis.
Additionally, the NCAA is considering waiving scholarship limits for programs to which these football student-athletes transfer, provided they reduce proportionately in the next year. For example, the limit is 25 new scholarships per year to a total of 85 scholarships. If the limits are waived in 2012-13 to accommodate one Penn State student-athlete who wishes to transfer to a particular school already at the limits, in 2013-14 the school will be limited to 24 new scholarships and 84 total scholarships.
The NCAA acknowledges that a large number of transfers away from Penn State could have a negative impact on the team's Academic Progress Rate. This impact will be addressed in the future as part of an overall academic review of the program.
Last Updated: Jul 23, 2012
They're going to lose their best players.
They're not going to be able to compete to lure new players to the school over the next 3-4 years, and will be having to settle for guys that might otherwise have been 3rd and 4th string players.
They're giving up $60m, which is a year's *gross* revenue.
They're going to lose coaches and staff and experienced, winning personnel.
This is pretty disastrous all-around.
Yeah, this pretty much eliminates PSU as anything resembling competition on the playing field for probably 6 years minimum. It is arguably worse than shutting the program down, as it leaves them on the field and on other team's schedules for the next few years as a punching bag. They have thirteen years of "0" on their record now, and probably several more years where they might not even be able to beat Division II schools.
All completely justified, imo.
B1G presser coming up at 11am. Guessing this will be the loss of TV revenues.
Another consequence then: lots of layoffs in the athletic department certainly possible.
Then maybe they should just hang up the cleats for a few years and put the football money into academic programs, until such time as they feel they can rebuild in a non-damaging manner?
On a tangential note, I read this piece about a peeping tom / child molester in the NY Times the other day. As it relates to the Penn State scandal, it's amazing how many people can turn their head the other way and/or pretend something never happened when child abuse occurs. As the article mentions, perhaps it is just so psychologically difficult to handle that it's easier to move on and act like it didn't happen.
Penn State's football program is self-funded. Revenues earned in excess of the budget (which have been considerable) then go to fund academic programs.
NCAA has indeed waived scholarship limits for schools that accept Penn State players (to be proportionally adjusted in future seasons).
They have also waived "permission to contact" rules.
Open season. Feeding frenzy.
I thought this was an interesting little side-note:
So if you don't have any dreams of going Pro and you honestly came to PSU for an education, the immolation of the program may have a (tiny) silver lining. Not that I think that this applies to too many of the players with scholarships, but at least it's there."Any entering or returning [Penn State] student-athlete will be allowed to immediately transfer and compete at another school," the NCAA said. "Further, any football student-athletes who remain at the university may retain their scholarships, regardless of whether they compete on the team."
MSNBC says that it's a loss of 20 scholarships per year for four years, which is DEVASTATING, considering that the maximum number of kids you can bring in each year is 25.
Goodbye, Penn State. You won't be a factor in football for AT LEAST a full decade. And you brought this upon yourself.
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