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Thread: Terrorist attacks in Norway

  1. #481
    Account closed Spinning Toe
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    Have they investigated his WoW guild yet?

  2. #482
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    He could have been hanged, but is that really justice here? I'd prefere if he rots in jail or similar, he needs time to think over what he's done, and I think it won't be pleasant for him.

  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janster View Post
    He could have been hanged, but is that really justice here? I'd prefere if he rots in jail or similar, he needs time to think over what he's done, and I think it won't be pleasant for him.
    If I'm to believe my wife (who is a clinical psychologist) it is unlikely to make much difference for someone as deeply psychopathic as Breivik likely is. Still don't support the death sentence, though.

  4. #484
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    Being against the death penalty is an acid test in this case, at least for some. I always reply that they should put more attention to the martyr angle. Most agree and are put back on track instantly.

    Young guy...should enjoy rotting in jail forallhisever.

  5. #485
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    He's as clear-cut a case of narcissism as they come. It's all about him - and how HE did something he considers amazing and spectacular. The consequences of his actions are almost irrelevant, it only matters that they were so amazing.

    His total lack of empathy supports this as well.

    I think he's much more important alive than dead, because his living personality is as powerful a statement against intolerance as any I could imagine. Since he's now at the center of attention, he has gotten all he wanted. The "cause" is just an excuse - and "making him understand" that he's not helping the cause won't make any difference if it was possible. He'll twist any logical argument into something that will enhance his own sense of self-importance.

    Just take away his ability to harm others through physical action, and let him be heard. It's the best way of getting anything positive out of this tragedy.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKDArtagnan View Post
    He's as clear-cut a case of narcissism as they come.
    Heeheehee, it turns out he really doesn't like being ridiculed.

    I have to agree that watching the total failure of his grand plan to eventuate while suffering a lifetime of being regarded as a pathetic crazypants loon is probably a much harsher punishment to him than some grand spectacle of a martyr's death.

  7. #487
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    His statements to the court are insane. There doesn't seem to be any logic in what he is proposing.

  8. #488
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    It would be a huge mistake to kill him because we want him punished. That would mean he can't be alive to teach others how harmful and tragic his character is.

    After a tragedy like this, the only reasonable course of action is to maximise the education we can gain.

    Killing him would rob the world of a very powerful lesson in what ignorance and severe personality disorders can lead to.

    At least, that's how I see it.

    I consider him, as an individual, irrelevant. He's caused a devastating amount of harm - and there's no escaping that now. It's futile to try and downplay it by ridiculing him. It's not going to change the harm he's caused.

    We need to take what good we can from an otherwise tragic event.

    So, by all means, confront him and let him be heard in public. Once we've exhausted his irrational and delusional position, we should just put him where he can cause no more harm.

    It's true that there will be other people with a mental imbalance, who might let themselves be inspired, but they'd find an inspiration anywhere.

    It's much better to ensure that reasonable people with their brains intact can use him to better understand and articulate the harm of lies and ignorance.

  9. #489
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    Good points, DKDArtagnan.

    Based on today's discussion, it seems pretty clear that the Prosecution is going for the psychopatic (or psychotic, depending on whether they will be arguing for jail or treatment) lone wolf holding extremist views - and to totally delegitimize his claims of representing some kind of organization or grander scheme.

  10. #490
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    "Acquittal or the death penalty are the only logical outcomes of this case," the confessed killer said. "I view 21 years in prison as a pathetic sentence."
    Please someone just shoot this guy.

  11. #491
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    Pretty scary letting him back out on the street in 20 years though. How closely does Norway watch their parolees?

  12. #492
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    I'd suggest life imprisonment myself.

  13. #493
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    If I'm correct in my thinking, the authorities really need to declare him insane, as that is the only way under Norwegian law they can keep him out of society indefinitely.

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Reynolds View Post
    Pretty scary letting him back out on the street in 20 years though. How closely does Norway watch their parolees?
    As a rule, ex-prisoners are thought to have served their time once their prison sentence is up, and is not usually watched.

    I do believe that in some cases, like this one, the Norwegian secret police will be closely watching afterwards. At least the danish secret police do keep tabs on certain individuals, and Norway isn't that different in fundamental laws or society.

    Its interesting that we do not, nor does Norway, have any jail time sentencing that suggest people are unable to ever be a productive member of society again, unlike say, The US does. Lifetime in Denmark is 16 years, which normally means out in about 12 years. (Vacation times are subtracted from jail years, meaning a jail year is about 8 months)

  15. #495
    New Romantic Alistair's Avatar
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    Say that again - vacation times are subtracted from jail years?

  16. #496
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    He's just the kind of case that could potentially change this sort of law. There's no way he can justifiably be let out after this, so if he's not provably insane - they'll have to come up with incarceration for life in some other way.

  17. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Say that again - vacation times are subtracted from jail years?
    eh..yes... I know - its very very stupid.

  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razgon View Post
    eh..yes... I know - its very very stupid.
    Same here in Norway, one prison year is 10 months (i believe), and you are normally released after 2/3 of your sentence if you have behaved yourself.

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Reynolds View Post
    Pretty scary letting him back out on the street in 20 years though. How closely does Norway watch their parolees?
    There's no way he is getting back out on the streets after 21 years. If the justice system considers him a threat to society, he'll face lifetime incarceration. They'll review his case every three or five years (or whatever the system is), but there is not a snowball's chance in hell that he is ever going to be walking the streets again.

    What prison/judiciary panel is going to be insane enough to be willing to take responsibility for releasing him into normal society?

  20. #500
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    If sane, he will be given 21 years + 10 containment, which is basically just more prison. He could get out when he's around 55 something, but it's not we have have to be afraid of him, its him who has to be afraid of the rest of us.

    If he's let out too early he won't live 2 hours out there.
    He's involved way too many young people who will remember him.

  21. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategy View Post
    There's no way he is getting back out on the streets after 21 years. If the justice system considers him a threat to society, he'll face lifetime incarceration. They'll review his case every three or five years (or whatever the system is), but there is not a snowball's chance in hell that he is ever going to be walking the streets again.

    What prison/judiciary panel is going to be insane enough to be willing to take responsibility for releasing him into normal society?
    If he at that time seems perfectly normal and repenting - Do you think they will still incarcerate him based on "what if"? That's radically different than my impression of your judicial systems

  22. #502
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    They will keep him locked up for having murdered 77 people without a sane reason and without denying it.

    I don't see him walking the streets again, but if he does - he better hope his WoW experience has taught him rogue perma stealth.

  23. #503
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    Maybe I don't understand the judicial system then - isn't 21 years 21 years then? But life all of a sudden? Or am I missing something here, or is it just people's feelings about him that says he should never be allowed to walk free again? (Genuine question, not trolling)

  24. #504
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    Just to clarify, because I've seen a number of US sites discussing this who don't really have a clue about the Norwegian justice system.

    Essentially, the case has three possible outcomes, given that guilt is not in doubt.

    Forced psychiatric care. This will be the sentence if they consider him clinically insane and therefore not liable for punishment. It is worth noting that there is - in practice - no sentence involved here, and in this case Breivik could theoretically be out after a few years, given that the decision is taken by health personnel. In principle, though, this is probably tantamount to a lifetime sentence.

    Prison sentence. In this case the maximum he can get is 21 years, assuming no parole. This is fairly rare, but does occur in cased of murder in the first degree plus other crimes. It is rare for people to serve that long; I think the longest sentence so far has been 16 years or something like that.

    Forvaring (containment). This is a very rare sentence, but was used against the NORKAS robbers in 2004 (bank robbers shot a policeman while escaping, for which several of the robbers were sentenced to up to 16 years containment). Containment has a minimal term of 10 years, and cannot be over 21 years in length - however the courts can extend it for a 5-year period an indefinite number of times, if they deem the convict to be unsafe to return to society.

    Containment differs from imprisonment in its purpose - imprisonment is intended as punishment/rehabilitation of criminals; containment has as its purpose the protection of society from the criminal. Thus - assuming he is not found insane - there is not a chance that he will get a regular prison sentence - the sentence is guaranteed to be Containment for the full 21 years with the option to extend.

    In practice - a lifetime sentence unless he can somehow convince the courts/psychiatrists that he is no longer a threat to society. Obviously, one can never rule out human stupidity, but I suspect the chances of that ever happening are fairly low.

    Regarding capital punishment, Norway abolished this in 1902, although it was reinstated in the period 1945-1948 (used against war-time traitors). And while Breivik's case will almost certainly trigger some reforms in the judiciary system (it has raised questions about the limits of the psychiatric profiles as well as discussions of extending maximum sentence lengths to 30 years, among other things), but reinstating capital punishment is not one of them. When debated, the polls I've seen show that an overwhelming majority of Norwegians (75% or thereabouts) still oppose capital punishment.

  25. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razgon View Post
    Maybe I don't understand the judicial system then - isn't 21 years 21 years then? But life all of a sudden? Or am I missing something here, or is it just people's feelings about him that says he should never be allowed to walk free again? (Genuine question, not trolling)
    I don't know the laws of Norway that well. But I do know that this Breivik case is totally unique and I also know that laws can change because of such cases.

    That's what I believe will happen, if it turns out they don't already have a law in place to fit the obvious requirement of having such a person away from society forever.

  26. #506
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    Oh, great. Now he's claiming he "trained" for the killings using Call of Duty.

  27. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategy View Post
    Just to clarify, because I've seen a number of US sites discussing this who don't really have a clue about the Norwegian justice system.
    Really interesting. Thanks for laying it out.

  28. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Universal Leader View Post
    Does that mean we were wrong and they were right all the fucking time?

  29. #509
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    No, no, it does not.

  30. #510
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    If you are familiar with a holographic sight, it's built up in such a way that you could have given it to your grandmother and she would have been a super marksman. It's designed to be used by anyone. In reality it requires very little training to use it in an optimal way. But of course it does help if you've practised using a simulator.
    Living the stereotype!

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