The 2011 Dominions 3 Thread

[Nikolaj]

I had the same thing happen to me a while ago, but I never did figure out what caused it. I'd be interested in knowing, too.

[farfrael]

So I'm mostly done for, but I have a couple questions. I want to investigate one a little more so I can ask a better question, but this one is simple.

I've made lots of really costly mistakes in this game and others due largely to being a noob and not understanding mechanics. I can't figure this one out though and am not sure how to investigate.

I have most of my mages out and about with most of my army in 64. Last turn I gave them an order to attack 73. All of my other units on the board moved, but that stack did not move.

Here's a screenshot



So why didn't my units attack? Can they "go off-script" somehow if your capitol is under siege or they don't like the order? All my other units moved. Is there something I don't know about that my devious opponent did? Does Dom sometimes just randomly bug out?

It's not really that big of a deal as I am already beat, but I'd like to know what happened so I can avoid it in future games. Any ideas?

you should probably hide your spies ...
I told my army in 75 to attack 64 and they did not move either ... was thinking WTF, have I changed the order at the last second, forgotten to give the order, am I already going senile etc

What I think happened is that the armies "bounced" and ended up not moving at all.

[Austen]

Sorry

[farfrael]

I don't want to sound too harsh but publicly soliciting advice on how to beat an existing player in an ongoing game is kind of a dick move in my book. Besides, things can still change quite fast with your 200+ units still available and nothing is yet finished.

Plenty of players are happy to discuss strategies and help each other on QT3 but that's usually as an AAR and after the game has ended. That's the 1st time I have seen such a blatant attempt at destabilising an ongoing game.

To answer your question, my specific build is doing ok early-game but quickly fades mid-game. As for rushing ... I want to clearly state, I had no intention to do so, I offered some alternative and was told I should instead be happy to wait in a corner until mid-game. Might as well have turned AI so instead tried to save my bacon..

[Greatatlantic]

Austen,

If the territory with your army was attacked, even by a small and inferior force, that could have been enough to stop your army from moving. Also, its quite possible you accidentally clicked somewhere else while that army was selected, somewhere they could never get to, so instead of moving them it changed the order to stay still. Finally, I think there is a bug where at random times large armies will refuse to move to specific squares. If my memory serves, the bug is than avoided by moving first to another province.

As for giants, since it is an ongoing game, and somebody has claimed it'd be rude to give you advise, I will give you only broad advise readily available by doing a strong enough search.

Giants all have terrible PD. Try to attack where his army isn't, raise taxes to weaken their value, and slowly whittle him down while you build up.

[Austen]

I don't want to sound too harsh but publicly soliciting advice on how to beat an existing player in an ongoing game is kind of a dick move in my book.

Plenty of players are happy to discuss strategies and help each other on QT3 but that's usually as an AAR and after the game has ended. That's the 1st time I have seen such a blatant attempt at destabilising an ongoing game

Shit man.. sorry. That wasn't my intention, I guess after spending the weekend looking for options, I wasn't really thinking about the big picture. I've just been stumped and I'm about to play a game against EA Niefel and am trying to come up with a plan for certain situations.

Besides, things can still change quite fast with your 200+ units still available and nothing is yet finished.

To answer your question, my specific build is doing ok early-game but quickly fades mid-game. As for rushing ... I want to clearly state, I had no intention to do so, I offered some alternative and was told I should instead be happy to wait in a corner until mid-game. Might as well have turned AI so instead tried to save my bacon..

No, no.. I'm done.. nothing will change, I can assure you. I understand where you are regarding your options, but accepting your proposal would have put me in the same situation you were looking to avoid. That's just the way it goes.

I don't have hard feelings, I'm just trying to learn from my mistakes. And now I've learned not to talk about things that are happening in a game, so I can add that to the list.. Sorry again.

[Austen]

I also changed the image in the interest of secrecy. Since it had been quoted, just nuking it wouldn't work. Fuck.. really sorry.

[Nikolaj]

Don't take it so hard. I don't see any problem with asking for advice for an ongoing game, although I'd personally do so on a different forum, in the hope of not alerting my opponents to my plans. In this case, you might want to try the shrapnel forums.

[Juffo-Wup]

So how do I hand off to Austen? Would it be a matter of the game admin switching the e-mail addresses associated with Arco? If so, go ahead. Once it's done I'll PM Austen with a little overview of what the nation is doing and the general plan.

[Scribble]

I don't think soliciting advice for an ongoing game is necessarily a no-no, but like Nikolaj said it's probably better to use a different board or a pm to a player you trust.

Because Dominions 3 is so complex, being given some broad-strokes advice on strategies to try out is not likely to be game changing. Execution is everything, as they say.

[farfrael]

Thanks Austen
As mentioned, I do have an issue with somebody publicly posting intel about another player and asking for specific assistance on how to fight this specific player for a game that's still ongoing. I don't see how this is a controversial stance.

On the other hand, I can highly recommend asking Scribble/dfs for advice ( even during an ongoing game) by PM etc or asking the same question once the game is finished. But "how do I beat Utgard" on turn 20 just made me go WTF.

[Calahan]

Apologies for the sudden intrusion, but here for those interested is a FAQ regarding all regular movement mechanics (bugs/weirdness etc) which I hope will answer the questions recently asked. For those is a rush, the tl:dr answer is at the bottom.


Regular Movement Mechanics FAQ (Edit - for when two adjacent opposing forces are ordered to attack each other)

When opposing forces (lets call them Alpha and Beta) in adjacent provinces X+Y (refered to as just X+Y from here on) are ordered to move towards each other (ie. The Alpha Force in X is ordered to attack Y, and Beta Force in Y is ordered to attack X), then there are four (yes 4) possible outcomes.

The Four Possible Outcomes Are -

1+2 - The Alpha and Beta forces clash , and a battle occurs in either province X or Y.

The first two outcomes are the most obvious ones, the ones that everyone knows about, and the ones that are seen 99% of the time in practice. Which is that a battle will take place in either province X or Y, with the Alpha and Beta forces (who were ordered to move into each other) clashing as a result. Which province the battle occurs in is random.

There are a dozen or more theories and guesses on what factors affect where the battle takes place. With claims that flying/stealth/glamour/SC's/lone units/large armies/small armies etc etc, all play a factor in deciding where the battle takes place. But they are all just theories and guesses, as none of them can be reproduced with any certainty in testing. Which leads to the obvious conclusion that the province chosen by the RNG (Random Number Generator) is just that, Random.


3 - Neither the Alpha or Beta Force move, no battle occurs.

This is a rare outcome, but one that is usually seen at least once in any game that lasts a decent number of turns. For convenience sakes, lets say it occurs 0.99% of the time. When this occurs both the Alpha and Beta forces will remain stationary on Defend orders (or Patrol, see below).

I have seen this outcome described as a bug, and I don't have my manual on hand to check what exactly is mentioned in there regarding movement when two adjacent forces move into each other (to see if it can resonably be called a bug). But I do not think it is a bug, and from a gameplay perspective, it's far better to view this as just one of the (rare) possible outcomes when adjacent armies are ordered to attack each other.

And speaking personally, I dislike seeing this called a bug, as I do know of at least one incident where a player quit Dominons all together because they couldn't handle this 'bug', and sadly all the other players in the game were agreeing it was a bug (whereas I felt they might well have contiuned had they been told it was just a rare outcome of the RNG, rather than an outright bug. And IMO that is what it actually is, see below). Each player can make up their own thematic reason for this being one of the available outcomes if it helps them to accept it. A simple one is that the commander(s) of both armies thought better of entering into the hostile engagement (insert reason here), and so decided to use their own initiative, halt their march, and await further orders.

There is circumstantial evidence to suggest that this outcome is more likely to happen if one (or both) forces are moving out of a fort. As when this outcome occurs in that instance, the force(s) moving from the fort will have Patrol orders rather than Defend. To me this is why this outcome should not be viewed as a bug, since from this it's obvious that the forces did try to move, and just didn't (rather than the orders being ignored), and with the units then being set on Patrol, this insures that the force would defend the Fort Province if it was attacked (as they wouldn't if it defaulted to Defend orders)


Now before I move onto the final outcome, I should make mention of a totally separate issue, which almost certainly can be described as a bug, where an army simply fails to move to an adjacent province for no identifiable reason. How often this bug occurs though is certainly up for debate, as in all the games I've played, and the many games I've been the non-playing admin of (so can access the turn files to investigate where it was claimed to occur), I have only ever seen this happen once.

Yet there was a time on the forums (Shrapnel/Dom3mods/SA) where any question about failed movement was answered with "Oh, that's the movement bug", resulting in players getting annoyed with the game because they perceived it as being too buggy. Where in truth it was the players own lack of understandfing of the game that was at fault 95% of the time. As 95% of the time (I investigated/heard of) there was another reason why the movement failed. Most common was that the force was moving more than one province, and one of the provinces en-route was lost during the magic phase (which then cancels regular movement). With the other reason being outcome 3 that I just described above.

So I would predict that the number of times the actual movement bug has occured in games is very very rare indeed. Although when it does actually occur, it does seem to (from the one example I've seen, and others I've heard about) result in a force simply refusing to move from province X-Y, and indeed will again fail to move from province X-Y if ordered to do so the next turn (so as the Greatatlantic says a few posts up, you need to move around it with X-Z-Y to get the force from X-Y). The cause of this bug is unknown (my guess is it's a map issue/bug that temporarily causes a province connection to disappear, but that is just a guess).


4 - The Alpha and Beta forces move past each other, without clashing, and two separate battles occur in provinces X+Y.

This final outcome is extremely rare, and for completeness sake you can say it occurs 0.01% of the time. But in practice even that value is probably too high. When this outcome does occur then the Alpha and Beta forces will simply move past (ignore) each other, not clash in any way, and carry out separate attacks on their intended target provinces of X+Y.

Now you will likely find that the vast majority of players have never seen this outcome occur, and when it is claimed to be possible, a lot of players will just say that the person making the claim is talking rubbish. I know I've personally had at least two discussions/arguments (that I can remember) with very seasoned players who basically said I was talking crap. But both came back to me a very long time afterwards saying they had since seen it happen. So this outcome is certainly possbile, but the chances of it occuring is close to zero. But I can assure you it can happen.

I have also never seen or heard of this occuring in a MP game, only in SP testing games, and then only twice for me (out of insane numbers). Not that this MP/SP thing makes any difference, but it does highlight just how rare it is.

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I think that should just about cover all possibilites regarding regular movement (Edit - for when two adjacent opposing forces are ordered to attack each other). There is a whole other aspect of movement that occurs in the magic phase, and how that can interact with regular movement and attacks. But that's another (bigger) issue, and I've rambled on long enough already.

---------------------------------------

tl:dr - When two adjacent armies are ordered to attack each other, 4 things can happen, with both armies not moving being one of them. It's not a bug, just a very rare outcome.

[tenuki]

To continue in Calahan's vein, here's my two cents about interrupting move orders, or what I've learned about it so far:

First of all, there are actually very few ways to stop a movement order from being executed. Atomizing the moving army in the magic phase is ideal of course. Killing commanders with assassins or assassination spells also helps but is relatively easily countered. And as Calahan mentioned, taking a necessary transit province (EDIT: or the destination province) in the magic phase interrupts a move over several provinces -- so long as the moving army has to walk.

More notable are the cases where you can't stop an army from moving. For one, attacking from a different province than the one the target army is moving to is no use, because all movement is executed before all battles. You simply can't catch moving raiders by chasing them with an army.

Most interestingly, taking a fort under siege in the magic phase does not prevent the army inside the fort from attacking a neighboring province in the regular movement phase, even though the way should technically be blocked. However, taking the province around the fort in either the magic or the movement phase cuts off retreat to that province after magic or movement battles, respectively. (All retreats are executed after all battles for the phase.)

This is the only method I know for turning the enemy's possession of a fort into a disadvantage for him: When the army is moving out it can't be patrolling at the same time. Barring the enemy's use of dedicated patrollers, you only need to beat PD. Doing so installs a check valve. The army inside the fort can get out but not back in.

Note that this only works for the turn in which the siege is installed. Afterwards, an army under siege is locked inside its fort as usual.

[gp1628]

Sorry for slightly off-topic
A DEMO version of Illwinters new game, Conquest of Elysium 3, is now available at Desura.com
http://www.desura.com/games/conquest-of-elysium-3
Purchase price for the full game is $30

[dfs]

Thanks Austen
As mentioned, I do have an issue with somebody publicly posting intel about another player and asking for specific assistance on how to fight this specific player for a game that's still ongoing. I don't see how this is a controversial stance.

Just FWIW the shrapnel forum is filled with posts that ask for specific nation on nation help with identified pretenders.

On the other hand, I can highly recommend asking Scribble/dfs for advice ( even during an ongoing game) by PM etc or asking the same question once the game is finished. But "how do I beat Utgard" on turn 20 just made me go WTF.

I'll always give advice. That doesn't make it good advice.

It's pretty easy to get into a spot where you just are not going to win in one of these games. I do that all the time.

[dfs]

So how do I hand off to Austen? Would it be a matter of the game admin switching the e-mail addresses associated with Arco? If so, go ahead. Once it's done I'll PM Austen with a little overview of what the nation is doing and the general plan.

Hopefully, you both have PM. The email address has been changed to what I believe is Austen's. He should be able to request the turn be sent to him via llamaserver.
Map and mod can be found in this post http://www.quartertothree.com/game-t...postcount=1127

TO THE REST OF SPRING LION

I've advised these two to take their time on the handoff. Not only do I want Austen to have a good experience in his first end game, but I want Tenuki to feel like he had a worthy foe.

[tenuki]

TO THE REST OF SPRING LION

I've advised these two to take their time on the handoff. Not only do I want Austen to have a good experience in his first end game, but I want Tenuki to feel like he had a worthy foe.

That's cool. I'm all patience. And malice, too.

[Nikolaj]

Apologies for the sudden intrusion

Hey, it's Calahan! The guy who organized my very first noob game.

Hi Calahan. :)

[pyrhic]

Not only do I want Austen to have a good experience in his first end game,

Well then, lube him up good dfs!

[Scribble]

Hugin

An hour to go before Hugin hosts, just Mr. Bowyer left to go. The full 72 hours have almost passed and the game has been waiting just on him for at least half that time. Do you need more time?

[farfrael]

I thought quick host had been turned off?

[Scribble]

I thought quick host had been turned off?

It had been, but was turned on because it seemed to be what the players wanted at the time.

I see now that the game has entered a late enough stage that turns take more than just a few minutes, and may involve some diplomacy back and forth as well. I will turn quickhost off again for Munin.

Hugin remains on quickhost until any of the players request otherwise.

[farfrael]

I'm not asking to remove quick-host per se but just trying to get up to speed with how the turns occur/not be surprised and miss a turn.

Life's pretty busy at the moment and if I don't have the time to pay as much attention to Dom3.

[Nate]

Double digit province count!!! WOO!!!

[Scribble]

QT3RAND

Just a reminder: The victory condition in this game is control of four of the seven capitals of the starting nations. I have no way of tracking that as I'm not in the game, so when someone satisifies the victory condition they will have to post in this thread and declare victory.

[gp1628]

you dont have score file on?
I think even when you are not using victory points, that count on the scores file gives at least a guess about it. Arent capitals always a vp? (or have I been out of things too long?)

[Austen]

So I have a game that started after Munin, but is on turn 39 now (and I'm not dead). The game is on sixlands and is no diplo. I am getting pretty deep in the tech trees, but have no MP experience here.

I am EA Hinnom (early Gath) and I started with an awake pretender S4D2F1 pretender Great Sage to try and stay competitive in early research.

Things have gone fairly swimmingly and I'm first or second in most categories and my Gem Income in particular is about triple the 2nd place nation. I was fairly lucky and found two sites early on that produce mages and have been making them every turn for many, many turns.

These Indy mages give me great magical diversity. I can cast/forge most of the lower-midlevel things I want including astral rings and elemental staves.

The thing is, I am very unfocused on research. I have been researching whatever I think will help me most against the guy I'm fighting right now and don't have a good end game plan.

I don't have and easy path to Tarts, though I think I could use Mound Fiends/Demiliach and Astral Rings + other boosters to get to it. My original plan was to just use my big thug chassis and equip them, but I seem to be bad at keeping them alive.

I have only completed Conj 5, but if I wanted to go to 8 I could summon Elemental Royalty. I also have ridiculous (from what I read) national summons at blood-9, but my blood economy is anemic and I've not ever really played a heavy blood nation, even in SP. So while I could get the research, I think I might have a hard time getting all the slaves necessary to get a guy up o Blood-8 to cast the spell which requires 177 slaves itself to case.

I guess the thing is, I don't really know how an MP endgame plays typically. My original plan of gearing up my own thugs can still be done, but I have to figure out how to do it better. What else should I be doing though? I'm pretty much complete on level 5-6 magic in all schools (like I said... I've been real unfocused.) I'm working on Evo-7 right now with the idea of getting Evo-8 for Pillar of Fire, but mostly because I just don't know what to be doing.

Anyone have any pointers on how things are likely to play out and what might be a good plan for me?

[Nikolaj]

I can't say I have a lot of experience with end-games, but I think that gearing up thugs is more of a mid-game strategy. Either way, getting to construction 8 first is always nice, and if you can get the chalice, you might want to go for tartarians next. :)

[farfrael]

If it's in vanilla Dom3, I believe going for GoH/chalice + tarts is a well documented strategy.

Also, I think you are still far from gone in Munin. You actually have a larger army now than before ...

[dfs]

So I have a game that started after Munin, but is on turn 39 now (and I'm not dead). The game is on sixlands and is no diplo. I am getting pretty deep in the tech trees, but have no MP experience here.

I am EA Hinnom (early Gath)
snip
if you want to read it...it's right above.

Hinnom has a couple of nice things going for it. Easy expansion, Fine magical diversity even without indies.

Melqarts and Ba'als are very high up the list. The fire ones can cast fire shield and blindness. The Earth ones can cast Earthquake, invulnerability and all those great earth spells that make your armies into stone walls and the astral ones ....well, the astral ones can do a LOT.

In terms of what to forge for them.....Gleaming gold, horror helms, flying shoes, luck, regen, reinvig, always look good on everybody and of course you have access to dwarven hammers so all this comes cheap.

After the thugs.....

You've got blood. Hinnom is really about blood.
Take your thugs and add blood vengence, Life for life and infernal prison and watch your foes squirm.

In addition, look at horrors. Horrors are easy-peasy and can cause all kinds of problems to your foes.

AND there are blood summons. Not just the Lords of civilization, but the Heliophagus, Demon Lords and the Se'irim. You will need to look at the boosters for blood magic in order to get there. Frankly the Blood summons can go toe to toe with tarts. They don't give you the magical diversity that tarts can give you, but then you don't need that.

Read up on blood hunting. Be aware that in addition to the regular problems with blood hunting, Hinnom's blood hunters actually eat population. That means that in addition to decreasing your population, they increase unrest. It's a tough balance to blood hunt with these guys and NOT crash your economy. I was not able to manage it in the multiplayer game where I was Hinnom even though I did manage it in some of my solo test games.

Back to those astral thugs.....Put ritual of return on him. Teleport on top of an enemy army. Go ethereal. Summon a horror or two. Yipes. Yeah, eventually you'll lose your raider because of horror marks, but you can cause all kinds of grief.

Oh...yeah, if you have the gems....set a horite shaman to reanimate. About half the corpses that he brings up will be giant corpses. They don't suffer from moral or fatigue and they can go underwater. It's an expensive trick, but if you are rolling in gems, it can catch your foe unaware.