Sword of the Stars II (Or another 4X space game I will probably buy)

[Pharaoh]

No, he wasn't. Kerberos pushed out a game too early, they didn't murder a puppy. There's some scale to be had here.

I mean, I'm unhappy that I don't have a playable game I paid for, yeah. I'm not going to start firebombing their offices over it, though.

Uhh, calm down killer. My point was Rorschach (the poster) has become the Pro-SOTS poster, with comments about this is only beta, inside knowledge of the good things ahead, have faith, etc.

E-guy, presented the mirror opposite, but did it in a poor way that invited impressions of being a troll. Yet his points were valid, and proven.

That said, did I miss a part of his posts where he talked about burning down the offices of Kerebos? If so, apologies.

[Woolen Horde]

Yeah, I'm going to need to read the damn manual on my iPad.

I figured out how to colonize something, but apparently colonization is a lot different than before. My colonization fleet is doing back-and-forth runs between my home world (where it started) and the destination system, which sort of makes sense, but it's different from every other game where colony ship is immediately used up upon colonization.

I do like the survey mission. Your survey fleet goes to the designated system, then returns. In SOTS those things often got orphaned and forgotten around distant systems. Too much of a hassle to micromanage them back and forth, especially due to fuel constraints.

Right now, I'm getting a whole ton of added complexity, but I'm wondering if the payoff is worth it. It reminds me quite a bit of X-Com to X-Com Apocalypse, where the fundamental gameplay mechanics were overhauled. Also getting a serious MOO3 vibe (and hopefully not in a bad way), but the interface is a lot more complicated than before.

[Sarkus]

In fairness to Rorschach, he never claimed to have played the release build. He did, though, believe that the full release version would be better (but still rough around the edges) based on his long contact with Kerberos. But he's not Kerberos, just a dedicated fan of the first game.

But perusing the various forums, yeah, everyone is reporting the same issues. The long delay has produced only a somewhat better version. And crashed the Kerberos forums again. ;-)

[Paladin]

I'm not a big fan of the how long it takes between turns from the AI's combat.

Edit: Three battles is taking about 1 minute between turns. I can imagine this gets a lot worse the further along you get in the game. It appears that the AI is attacking the same thing (proteans) turn after turn. I don't know what that says about its intelligence.

Edit2: Now, I don't have any sound. Not only in game but at the desktop too. Only a restart gets my sound back. Plus, my Sword of the Stars 2 directory is 8gb which means the beta stuff is still in there, I'm assuming.

[Mark L]

Scattered thoughts below:

I actually am interested in the systems and how they interact- I am just so very disappointed that nothing seems to work right.

For example, stations are clearly the answer to those who wanted more macro-management: they allow you to create buildings that add bonuses of various sorts to your empire. But how do they work? What do they do, really? When I add points to "dock" or "warehouse", what exactly am I going to accomplish? I tested out a science station and made some poly-sci modules, then researched some poly-sci tech. I did not notice it researching faster, but I did locate an indicator on the tech screen saying it was going 6% faster. So okay, there's that. But what about the many, many other options for the stations? There are no tool tips at all.

I have no idea how supply works. I get that it is important, but do I need to send supply ships with my fleet? How many? How do I know? Do they need to get supplies from somewhere?

I like how colonization missions involve shuffling colonists back and forth from planet to planet automatically. It makes sense and is simple enough to set up. That's something.

Every time I enter or leave a screen, there is a brief delay. It really grates on you since you are constantly shifting from one screen to another.

The Empire Management screen lists a bunch of parameters I can put money into or out of- stuff like counter-intelligence, mining, stimulus....I don't know what they do, and I don't know the consequences of investing in one of them or withdrawing funds from another. I think that doing this will affect my government type, but that is an ultimate result; I want to know the proximate, direct consequences of going crazy-go-nuts investing money into intelligence.

To sum up, I just plain don't know what's going on with my empire. If I don't know what's going on, I can't rule it.

One last, terrible thing- I am playing a two player game against Sol Force. Every turn- EVERY TURN- they fight some kind of battle, somewhere, against a minor alien nuisance, the swarm. I know this because I am shown a popup saying that the fight is going on, and the game runs a simulation to get the results. This takes about 15 seconds. What will happen if there are, say, 5 players, and they are all fighting every turn. What then? What if there are multiple battles? I suppose I should point out my PC is well within the specs to play the game, and I have 9 gigs of ram.

I dunno, this is just a mess.

[Sarkus]

I like how Mecron created a "venting" thread over on the official forums. This was after they finished their upload tonight but before anyone had gotten the mega update installed. So what started off as mainly a bunch of fanboys just happy they were about to get the "release" version has gotten angry very fast.

[Morberis]

The no tool-tips things is what's getting me. I don't know what any of this stuff does, whats the graph with the weapons? I'm just guessing at stuff and I can't seem to find out within a reasonable time.

The battle resolution system doesn't bother me, but then I grew up in a time when AI turns would take several minutes.

[McKnight]

Uhh, calm down killer. My point was Rorschach (the poster) has become the Pro-SOTS poster, with comments about this is only beta, inside knowledge of the good things ahead, have faith, etc.

E-guy, presented the mirror opposite, but did it in a poor way that invited impressions of being a troll. Yet his points were valid, and proven.

That said, did I miss a part of his posts where he talked about burning down the offices of Kerebos? If so, apologies.

I don't know if you know this but Rorschach is the guy who looks after the SOTS1 wiki (or at least was the original creator) and is very friendly with the developers. While he's not actually affiliated with Kerberos in any way, he's about as close as you can be without actually being a developer. Which is why everyone has been asking him for his opinion since NDA has been lifted :)

Although to be fair Rorschach you're being very quiet about everything (bar updating people on the release situation) which is making me nervous, I can't speak for anyone else.

-edit- And don't stand up for idiocy, everything out of that guys mouth has been complete trollop. Trying to even attempt to justify it just makes you look like an idiot yourself, and I know you're not ;)

[Paladin]

MOO3 all over again.

[Huzurdaddi]

Sort of. Wasn't MOO3 done by an entirely different team than the team who made MOO3? AFAIK, SOTS2 is being done by the same team.

It is pretty weird since they made such steady progress with SOTS, it started out barebones but became a solid game over time. I would have figured that SOTS2 would have continued down the same path.

Ah well, maybe if they stay in business this 40 dollars will become money well spent in a few months.

[Sarkus]

MOO3 all over again.

Nothing will ever been MOO3 all over again. Certainly not SOTS2, if for no other reason then the fact that SOTS is not at that franchise level.

Plus, no Alan Emrich. So unless Tom was somehow involved in SOTS2 (highly unlikely for various reasons) then the two games can't be compared.

(Odd side note - guess which now well known game developer received a "special thanks" in the credits of MOO3? Ken Levine.)

[Pharaoh]

Good to know about Rorschach, explains things a bit more clearly.

About E-guy's spew earlier and defending it? Eh, its the internet. I viewed his point as such...they have a poor track record, all signs are pointing to bad news, be cautious.

Back to the game:

Been trying to play more with it. I think what really is making the experience so bad is the UI. From a pure user experience standpoint, interaction and information design...its beyond painful.

Information critical to the context of the screen? In 3 places, usually in opposite corners. Actions that must be repeated multiple times, like sending fleets, is 4 screens and 7 clicks, including two confirmations.

Someone pointed out earlier they are getting vibes of MOO3 from this. While I wouldn't call it that bad yet, it is very much in that direction.

[Sarkus]

I didn't purchase SOTS until late (after all the expansions had been released), so I have no idea the state that game was in other then hearing that the strategic side was pretty basic in comparison to what it became. Was it technically a mess? Did it have UI issues? Just wondering if this was to be expected at some level, like how Paradox strategy titles are usually undercooked and such. Because one thing I've wondered in this is if they were pushed to get this out before it was ready by financial or publisher reasons.

[Paladin]

I was referring to my disappointment over having another long awaited sequel to a 4x game turn out to be a buggy, inscrutable mess on release day.

[Lum]

Bear in mind that while I'm no fan of Everett's NMA-style commentary, it's important to note for anyone reading this thread: even after the release build screwup today was resolved, the game is not in a releasable state.

Just from a brief playthrough:
- Options menu disabled entirely
- Scenarios menu disabled entirely
- Sound cuts out at random
- Much of the game's documentation/help screens incomplete

And that's just bugs. In the "working as intended" category, the interface is a Byzantine level of opacity, basic ship functionality is needlessly confusing and turns take a huge amount of time to resolve even in the early stages (I can only imagine once empires start fighting).

Don't buy this yet. It needs fixing. It should not have been released.

[kerzain]

I didn't find it much different than SOTS1. Select tree, click on what I want to research, click research. I don't have problems with the research UI, but then I didn't have many qualms with the original. I understand why people didn't like it, but it never bothered me much. This one feels pretty much the same to me, is it much worse for you?

I was replying directly to your statement that reads:

I actually find the UI to be a big improvement in my very limited experience. Far fewer clicks to do things. Yes, it does things differently than SOTS1, but that's hardly a bad thing.

Has nothing to do whether you didn't mind the original, this new one is not an improvement, and actually requires more clicks that the original. Instead of streamlining the thing they've made it even worse. Not the biggest problem I encountered with the beta version (downloading something right now, so it's hard to judge and feel all vehement about it), but a perplexing one nonetheless. I really hoped they'd work on putting more information right up front for the user, instead of forcing dozens of clicks when swapping between tech trees and then comparing techs.

I only spent about 10 minutes inside the research screen though, so maybe there's a better way to use it than what I figured out in my brief experience.

It is inefficient. It won't be impossible to grow the tolerance for it that you have, but that isn't going to happen until I become familiar enough with all the techs that the inefficiencies no longer stand directly in my way.

[Janster]

Bear in mind that while I'm no fan of Everett's NMA-style commentary, it's important to note for anyone reading this thread: even after the release build screwup today was resolved, the game is not in a releasable state.

Just from a brief playthrough:
- Options menu disabled entirely
- Scenarios menu disabled entirely
- Sound cuts out at random
- Much of the game's documentation/help screens incomplete

And that's just bugs. In the "working as intended" category, the interface is a Byzantine level of opacity, basic ship functionality is needlessly confusing and turns take a huge amount of time to resolve even in the early stages (I can only imagine once empires start fighting).

Don't buy this yet. It needs fixing. It should not have been released.

I'm worried now, I guess since I got those menus disabled I have the 'release' version.
This game got issues with even the basics, then we get onto the meat of the game and there are issues too.

Particularly fleet control, the most important aspect of this game imho, is very messy. I can't easily tell where my ships are or what they are doing. Its also hard to see the ship icons. This was done simple and clearly in SOTS 1.

Finally the combat simluation, this is hopeless ,we can't sit that long for every single combat in the game. I know some airheads on the forum wanted more accurate depictions, but time is of essence, I would prefere just a diceroll on combat that involves npc vs npc.

[kerzain]

Wow, this game is different. Looks pretty, though.

Also, I'm intrigued by any game that recommends a 64-bit CPU and 6GB of RAM. Thankfully, I've got a Core i7 with 12GB :P

And, *sigh*, what's wrong with 2D skill trees? At least the tree in the original SOTS was pretty fluid to navigate (just rotate). This new one requires you to constantly toggle to navigate the tree.

Ughhhhhh.... whoever made this skill tree is not a UX guy. I click on a tech and the description is in the top left corner of the screen (and at 1920x1200, that's requiring me to turn my neck constantly).

I didn't want to harp, but you've pretty much verbalized stuff I was avoiding complaining about till I play the release version.

I share your Ughhhhhh.

[Juffo-Wup]

Alright, I've run through a couple turns and tried to figure out what's going on in this game but it's a complete clusterfuck. The game defies understanding, and at this point in time I'm pretty sure that it's not my fault. I suspect that SOTS2 is mostly just a jagged skeleton of half-implemented ideas that don't actually work yet.

It may not have ruined the legacy of MOO, but I think this game is in worse shape than MOO3 on release day.

[Janster]

Okay, the absolute deal breaker for me is the combat simulations.

What where they thinking?

[Woolen Horde]

Goddamnit, DO NOT INSTALL MICROSOFT .NET FRAMEWORK EVERY TIME I START THE GAME.

Also, the fancy "pick a fleet to do this mission" 3D screen isn't that helpful because the camera angle sucks, and I'd rather have just call up a list of available fleets to do the mission in a box on the map screen, rather than have to fade-to-black, get fancy 3D window screen to choose fleet, then fade-to-black back to the map.

[Beefeater1980]

Played a couple of hours of the new build. It's basically the old build with DLC in and fewer crashes.

There are 4 sets of issues that keep this from being worth anyone's time and money at the moment:

- instability and bugs (e.g. Crashes, sound glitches, formations don't appear to work)
- missing content (e.g. Tutorial, scenarios, explanatory text, sotspedia)
- UI is poorly designed and counterintuitive (e.g., lots of critical icons or info is/are very small and/or banished to the corner of the screen, hard to tell what's going on)
- even when stable, the game has some odd design decisions that make it dull to play (e.g. Forcing you to watch auto-battles, three separate attack missions (strike, interdict, invade) that in practice seem to be the same, tactical battles where the fleets use 3-4/5 of the default time just manoeuvring into visual range)

I am confident that the first two types of issue will be solved, probably sooner rather than later. The weak UI is probably here to stay but could be liveable with if the base game were more fun. The biggest issue for me is that play is jerky and not very exciting. The game needs to flow a lot better before it will be worth playing.

[Juffo-Wup]

Okay, the absolute deal breaker for me is the combat simulations.

What where they thinking?

The point where I realized it wasn't worth it was after the first combat I tried to play. My ships spawned outside of the solar system and I couldn't even reach it before the 5 minutes were up and "combat" ended in a draw. Seriously? Does anything work right in this game?

[kerzain]

I'm out. This game is a pile right now.

I'll monitor their updates, but there are so many, and I mean, SO MANY genuine problems that go beyond mere inefficiencies. This game is not ready for release. I'm not saying it can't get there with a lot of time, and a lot of hard work, but it's not there right now.

If you're on the fence, save your money for now.

[Strollen]

I didn't purchase SOTS until late (after all the expansions had been released), so I have no idea the state that game was in other then hearing that the strategic side was pretty basic in comparison to what it became. Was it technically a mess? Did it have UI issues? Just wondering if this was to be expected at some level, like how Paradox strategy titles are usually undercooked and such. Because one thing I've wondered in this is if they were pushed to get this out before it was ready by financial or publisher reasons.

Same here. Just a few days ago I asked how the original SOTS release was and the few comments were it was pretty good, most stable, but lots of rough edges.

Anyway I'm guessing that wasn't true, because the way I learned about SOTS, was because thread on games that I started about games that were lousy at the initial release but worth playing after patches. SOTS had several mentions, and in fairly popular thread, to me it was the best suggestion.

I am happily playing the original while waiting for the 8GB patch to download. I actually may not even fire it up again for a week or two, so it doesn't leave a sorry taste in my mouth like some many Paradox games, do when the release their early Beta code so we can pay to test their software.

[DKDArtagnan]

Developer delusion ala Elemental :(

[Razgon]

I feel so sad about this - I feel its a deathblow to the genre.

Do we have any other scifi 4x games on the horizon?

Also, I wonder how a company who has made a game that is so widely acclaimed beforehand, can now release what by all signs is an unfinished game?

[amandachen]

Thanks for the warnings, everyone. I was so close to buying this.

[Chris Nahr]

I feel so sad about this - I feel its a deathblow to the genre.

Do we have any other scifi 4x games on the horizon?

I'm still waiting for the great turn-based strategy renaissance on tablets... has to come any day now, right?

Also, I wonder how a company who has made a game that is so widely acclaimed beforehand, can now release what by all signs is an unfinished game?

I recall that SOTS had a quite a few issues on release as well, never mind the developers' toxic attitude. I didn't really expect a great release, though not as bad as it apparently turned out.

[YourConscience]

I feel so sad about this - I feel its a deathblow to the genre.

Do we have any other scifi 4x games on the horizon?

Also, I wonder how a company who has made a game that is so widely acclaimed beforehand, can now release what by all signs is an unfinished game?

I feel sad too. But actually, that new expansion for Distant Worlds that's going to come out next month or so is going to tide me over, at least. Perhaps some of you guys as well?

Anyway, I knew that the launch would be rough, but bought it anyway, because I also knew that they would have a rough time getting any units sold what with almost the same launch day as BF3 and I really don't want them to go belly up over this. I'm also fine with waiting a few more month them to patch it up somewhat. But looking at the staggering amount of sheer unfinishedness that the game currently is in I am actually starting to worry that they might go belly up anyway and leave a potentially interesting game that shines through all the unfinishedness somewhere in a similar sad state as Fort Zombie was left in.

Edit: And yes, the simulated battles are the worst offender so far: right from the beginning in one of my games Sol Force was fighting two or three fights every single turn against the same Morriagi ruin or something of that sort. Apparently the AI was too dumb to understand that repeatedly sending singular cruisers to the same place they just lost the last few rounds over and over again is not a good idea. I endured waiting through 40 turns of that (I am a patient person...), but the the game crashed and I didn't have the strength to launch it up again. I haven't even seen a single battle yet. :(