RAGE - New thread for the id game

[anaqer]

I am (among other things, as detailed above). If only being allowed four guns at a time is for realism (god knows it's not for the sake of, you know, fun), then by all means, you better have a fucking realistic explanation for regenerating health. Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

[RobotPants]

How are high-tech, instantly-healing medkits that happen to be littered about the battlefield by the hundreds any more or less realistic than some high-tech suit or whatever that does essentially the same thing? If the in-game explanation for both of these things is technology, I don't see how one is more believable than the other. Hell, I can barely recall any recent game that explains anything in regards to the character's health beyond "medkits recover lost health" or "find cover to regenerate shields/health".

Keep in mind, I'm not arguing that one way is better than the other here. But to bring realism into it at all just seems really weird to me. Realism would involve no health system at all.

[belgerog]

In Jedi Knight you had Bacta tanks. Those are realistic!

[Pogo]

Eh? Multiplayer is all about map control, which requires map memorisation, be it where the chokes and good sniper spots are, the decent weapon pickups, or the med kits.

Don't equivocate. There's a difference between heading to a location to grab a medkit or heading to a location for the gameplay advantage it serves the player. This is particularly true when the player's playstyle is something that's setup beforehand and not dependent on getting to a weapon pickup as fast as possible. A capture point is not a medkit.

The worst part of regeneration is really that in a team game, all the damage that one team does to another is usually made moot after the team loses a push. Monday Night Combat sort of has this problem and "solves" it by having very quick respawns.

Nice sleight-of-hand attempt, but unless there's a doom clock running on the level, regeneration makes health an infinite resource. Few would argue against that.

Nice inability to remark on the rest of his post which was pretty well written out.

Health as a finite resource doesn't fly with current game design and gamer wants. Someone already mentioned that designers were just as lazy before when they had to throw in health packs all in one spot just to get the player up to a level of health that lets them then design an encounter that can be challenging, but not brutal to someone else who would then have to load up some save from an hour ago.

How do medkits make any experience better, honestly? I feel like this argument is only coming out because some old school gamers (which I still am in some ways) are resisting conventions that they're used to and now for some reason feel are too e-z-mode or something.

The only way to stay old school these days is to play every game on Hard.

[anaqer]

Denying your opponent the chance to pick up health is every bit as common a strategy as picking up weapons you already have - players who are up are often seen hurting themselves a bit just to be able to absorb that health bubble before the down player can.

[Zylon]

Health as a finite resource doesn't fly with current game design and gamer wants. Someone already mentioned that designers were just as lazy before when they had to throw in health packs all in one spot just to get the player up to a level of health that lets them then design an encounter that can be challenging, but not brutal to someone else who would then have to load up some save from an hour ago.

Congratulations on your realization that everything can be done poorly.

[Pogo]

Stay classy bro. You still haven't come up with any counter argument whatsoever about how balancing a game on medkits is silly because it doesn't give level designers the freedom to design encounters without somehow magically knowing what health the player is at.

[anaqer]

How are high-tech, instantly-healing medkits that happen to be littered about the battlefield by the hundreds any more or less realistic than some high-tech suit or whatever that does essentially the same thing?

Significantly... you know that's a bit of a strawman you have there, right? But fine: the suit is always on - it may take time to do its work, but time is an entirely different resource from items.

[Zylon]

Stay classy bro. You still haven't come up with any counter argument whatsoever about how balancing a game on medkits is silly because it doesn't give level designers the freedom to design encounters without somehow magically knowing what health the player is at.

And yet, since as long as video games have existed, game designers have been doing exactly that.

Imagine Fallout 3 or Minecraft with auto health regen. Bleah.

[Quitch]

Don't equivocate. There's a difference between heading to a location to grab a medkit or heading to a location for the gameplay advantage it serves the player. This is particularly true when the player's playstyle is something that's setup beforehand and not dependent on getting to a weapon pickup as fast as possible. A capture point is not a medkit.

Eh? How is more health than another player not a gameplay advantage?

[anaqer]

Pogo, the designer can know what health level the player is at. You call it magic, I call it looking up a variable and then spawning items accordingly - you just have to work for it a bit.

[Quitch]

Or go the SiN Episodes route and vary the spawn levels according to how often the player dies and rubber band it depending on the selection the player made for rubber banding.

[JM]

Eh? How is more health than another player not a gameplay advantage?

I'm with you on this one. I can't see how health kits in Quakeworld 1v1 and 4v4 were anything other than an added strategic layer.

[RobotPants]

Significantly... you know that's a bit of a strawman you have there, right? But fine: the suit is always on - it may take time to do its work, but time is an entirely different resource from items.

The original discussion was collecting healthkits vs auto-regeneration. You went down the realism path. I honestly don't care one way or another. I've played plenty of games with both and neither method was bad in and of itself. So long as the game pacing doesn't suffer from the act of recovering from fatal damage, I can handle the mental leap required to believe my dude can be healed, through any means, after being brought within inches of his life dozens and dozens of times.

[Pogo]

And yet, since as long as video games have existed, game designers have been doing exactly that.

Imagine Fallout 3 or Minecraft with auto health regen. Bleah.

And yet, Minecraft has auto health regen on the Easy setting. I can imagine how that's more fun to some people than selecting your pig meat slot and gaining 4 hearts back.

And Fallout 3? Really? What, you had think selecting a stimpack (of which there are billions in the world) using a couple of them and instantaneously being back at full health was some awesome gameplay mechanic?

I'm playing New Vegas on "Hardcore" mode and there are so many food items that I can easily eat any number of them and start regenerating health. I'm usually doing this after I've run away from enemies. So now it becomes a matter of time before I'm back at full health anyways.

So what is your (and other people's) argument against regenerating health, really, in applicable gameplay terms, when developers can still reward exploration with other items and the act of using a medkit makes absolutely no sense when many times it's used after the player has retreated to a safe reprieve?

What game mechanic does instantaneous health gain serve to supplement, besides run-n-gunning? And if that's your goal in a game, put it on easy and have at it.

Eh? How is more health than another player not a gameplay advantage?

I said there's a difference between gameplay advantages. An advantage of a discrete amount of health is shallow. An advantage based on positioning where you have the ability to do the amount of damage you need to take down someone with full shields is compelling gameplay.

I don't particularly care if you like deathmatch arenas with powerups. Those games were great precursors and I don't find them that compelling anymore, though the old mechanics have found new blood. Bioshock 2 comes to mind, where you have to hack a terminal to regain health or plasma. This turns health from a pickup that you just run over into a more dangerous time vs reward decision.

I'm with you on this one. I can't see how health kits in Quakeworld 1v1 and 4v4 were anything other than an added strategic layer.

At a time when the core gameplay was shallow and map control was king, it was great. It can still be great. That it was a strategic layer is obvious, my initial statement maybe wasn't so obvious.

Pogo, the designer can know what health level the player is at. You call it magic, I call it looking up a variable and then spawning items accordingly - you just have to work for it a bit.

You call it looking up a variable and spawning items accordingly, and I call it a complete waste of time compared to encounters that can be more quickly tested and balanced.

[mixuk]

Imagine Fallout 3 or Minecraft with auto health regen. Bleah.

I don't think anyone claims that it makes sense for anything else but pure action games.

[Pogo]

I don't think anyone claims that it makes sense for anything else but pure action games.

I was sort of claiming it doesn't make sense. Stimpacks would make more sense if they were like Left 4 Dead, where Adrenaline or Pills give you a big temporary boost of hit points, and Medkits actually take time to apply but are actual health that you keep.

[belgerog]

And Fallout 3? Really? What, you had think selecting a stimpack (of which there are billions in the world) using a couple of them and instantaneously being back at full health was some awesome gameplay mechanic?

There were times when I had very few stimpacks in fallout 3, which was great, because I had to be more careful and there was more tension. They also make sense in the setting.

But yes, Left 4 Dead has a very cool implementation of health packs.

[anaqer]

The original discussion was collecting healthkits vs auto-regeneration. You went down the realism path. I honestly don't care one way or another. I've played plenty of games with both and neither method was bad in and of itself. So long as the game pacing doesn't suffer from the act of recovering from fatal damage, I can handle the mental leap required to believe my dude can be healed, through any means, after being brought within inches of his life dozens and dozens of times.

Theoretically, I can see your point - except (FPS) games so rarely seem to hit that sweet spot. This is probably getting to be a bit too subjective, but in most autoregen health systems, I either end up feeling patronized by the devs and never-ever die (thus losing all sense of tension and danger), or feel like a complete moron for not being able to time my actions effectively and having to revert to checkpoints from way back. If I mess up by not coming to a fight properly stocked up - well, that's my own damn fault and I can live with it. If I mess up by not being able to figure out the exact sequence of events the devs had in mind - well, that's just plain fucking frustrating. Again - I guess it's partly my preference towards a strategical rather than a tactical engagement.

[Pogo]

There were times when I had very few stimpacks in fallout 3, which was great, because I had to be more careful and there was more tension. They also make sense in the setting.

Sure, but in an instance where you had only a couple of stimpacks, someone else had a dozen.

One of the problems with this sort of resource/inventory system in an exploratory game is that the developers are forced to provide those medkits in all areas of exploration. In that effort to reward exploration, they gave those that explore a massive advantage (essentially invincibility). Is that really a reward when it removes the threat of a fail state, and the accomplishment of a victory? Hell, the weight on stimpacks was zero, there was no reason not to pick all of them up, and conversely no reason to increase medicine.

If I mess up by not coming to a fight properly stocked up - well, that's my own damn fault and I can live with it.

How is it your fault? And how is the punishment for not being stocked up (potentially replaying hours of a game) in any way better than having to replay a sequence because you didn't "get it" the first time?

[anaqer]

How is it your fault? And how is the punishment for not being stocked up (potentially replaying hours of a game) in any way better than having to replay a sequence because you didn't "get it" the first time?

It's my fault because every game has an end goal, has it not? And while I may not know what it is just yet, it's probably going to involve a big fight, innit. So it's only natural to keep that in mind and not squander too much of my precious resources on whatever encounters I stumble upon on the road to that confrontation. Sure, I may reload a couple of fights along the way - but it's only stupid hoarding if the game decides it should give a chance to players who think they are entitled to stand a chance in the end regardless of their level of preparation.

[ckessel]

Pogo, the designer can know what health level the player is at. You call it magic, I call it looking up a variable and then spawning items accordingly - you just have to work for it a bit.

You just made the point that there's no difference between health packs and regen since in either case it's possible to tailor the challenge accordingly. And if the point is an equivalent level of challenge, why should the developer go to the extra work of doing lookup tables for the health pack mechanism?

[ahoythematey]

Because it's more fun than doing the crouch-behind-rock-regen-routine for half the battle?

Did everybody that plays shooters today forget how to play games? If you need a compromise, go for Resistance's tiered health regen or Left4Dead's health system, but don't act like health regen isn't a crutch game devs use instead of learning/relearning the art of good level design in shooters. If all you want is a shooting gallery of aliens/monstars/arabs, then I guess today is your world.

[lordkosc]

I see that screenshot a billion times a day (slight exaggeration).

The 1993 layout, what game is that from?

[Staff Sergeant]

Isn't it Doom2?

[Pogo]

Because it's more fun than doing the crouch-behind-rock-regen-routine for half the battle?

Did everybody that plays shooters today forget how to play games? If you need a compromise, go for Resistance's tiered health regen or Left4Dead's health system, but don't act like health regen isn't a crutch game devs use instead of learning/relearning the art of good level design in shooters. If all you want is a shooting gallery of aliens/monstars/arabs, then I guess today is your world.

The most compelling argument ever, right here.

[Adree]

Because it's more fun than doing the crouch-behind-rock-regen-routine for half the battle?

Did everybody that plays shooters today forget how to play games? If you need a compromise, go for Resistance's tiered health regen or Left4Dead's health system, but don't act like health regen isn't a crutch game devs use instead of learning/relearning the art of good level design in shooters. If all you want is a shooting gallery of aliens/monstars/arabs, then I guess today is your world.

Oh man I sure do miss wandering around looking for colored keys then backtracking through half the level. The market has spoken correctly with their dollars, time for you to move on to battles you can win.

[anaqer]

'Correctly', right. Because keeping track of the environment you're supposed to fight in is a chore and remembering shit is for chumps. Man, you must have really hated all those shooters before regenerating health and linear level design.

You just made the point that there's no difference between health packs and regen since in either case it's possible to tailor the challenge accordingly. And if the point is an equivalent level of challenge, why should the developer go to the extra work of doing lookup tables for the health pack mechanism?

No, I just made the point that if the developers - for some reason - really, really wanted the player to have a certain minimum level of health for a specific scene, they could still do it without resorting to regen across the board.

[Creole Ned]

The obvious solution is auto-regenerating health kits.

[ahoythematey]

The market has spoken correctly with their dollars, time for you to move on to battles you can win.

Good to know that a sense of exploration and discovery is dead. Time to pack my shit and leave, gaming is over, long live Saint Dudebro! The masses have spoken, and now I know my place.

By the way, I wanted to let you know I found a controller that is just perfect for you during those times when your health isn't regenerating fast enough.



Be sure to play around with this in a safe spot, learn how to use it, else you could actually, possibly, perhaps lose.