Thread: Wisconsin governor goes bonkers

  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheapfilms View Post
    The same tactic was used in Texas back in 03. It didn't really stop anything in the end. Sure brings back memories though.
    Well... this happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightbug View Post
    Wisconsin Eye will apparently be posting videos of the session around noon:

    http://www.wiseye.org/
    So this video is up. There are good speeches throughout. (E.g., 4 hours 25 minutes and in the last hour before the vote at 1:05.) As I was watching the final speech and looking at the remaining time I thought there must be some error and that this wasn't the full video because it only looked like there was 30 seconds left and they hadn't voted yet. Holy shit. Watch the last two minutes if you watch nothing else.

    Next week Walker reveals his budget which he's already said contains 1 billion dollars in cuts to local funding and education. What a fucking mess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightbug View Post
    Next week Walker reveals his budget which he's already said contains 1 billion dollars in cuts to local funding and education. What a fucking mess.
    That's a lot of cheddar. Which up until this point I was assured Wisconsin had plenty of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raife View Post
    Actually, they just need three Republican Senators to oppose the collective bargaining changes. There are 33 Senators, 14 are Democrats. Three would make it 17-16. Some of the Republicans live in heavily union districts with multiple prisons and other state facilities, and they are getting a lot of pressure from their constituents. This is really the best chance of killing this bill.
    Yay prison industrial complex? More bennies for the guards, more guards! We have more prisons! More guards, more bennies!

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA9KC8SMu3o

    Barack Obama in Spartanburg, SC. Nov. 3rd, 2007.

    "And understand this: If American workers are being denied their right to organize and collectively bargain when I'm in the White House, I'll put on a comfortable pair of shoes myself, I'll will walk on that picket line with you as President of the United States of America. Because workers deserve to know that somebody is standing in their corner."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffd View Post
    You know, now that I think about it I'm going to bookmark this thread so I can throw it at the next person who insists that there's no difference between Democrats and Republicans.
    To prove what, exactly? That was a disgusting display by the Democrats, IMO. But you see this is some sort of proud moment for Democrats everywhere, and some sign that the Democrats are different and/or better? They looked like idiots. They lost a vote, and they protested it in session. It looked like some sort of Parliamentary display of foolish emotion.

    Use logic and reason to win this battle. Wearing matching T-shirts and chanting 'shame' is actually the exact same sort of mob mentality bullshit the Republicans use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Sharp View Post
    To prove what, exactly? That was a disgusting display by the Democrats, IMO. But you see this is some sort of proud moment for Democrats everywhere, and some sign that the Democrats are different and/or better? They looked like idiots. They lost a vote, and they protested it in session. It looked like some sort of Parliamentary display of foolish emotion.

    Use logic and reason to win this battle. Wearing matching T-shirts and chanting 'shame' is actually the exact same sort of mob mentality bullshit the Republicans use.
    You have to use something they can understand.

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    Who are 'they'? Republicans don't understand shame ;)

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    Interesting stuff from Krugman and David Johnston here:

    Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

    How can that be? Because the “contributions” consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages – as pensions when they retire – rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services.

    Thus, state workers are not being asked to simply “contribute more” to Wisconsin’ s retirement system (or as the argument goes, “pay their fair share” of retirement costs as do employees in Wisconsin’ s private sector who still have pensions and health insurance). They are being asked to accept a cut in their salaries so that the state of Wisconsin can use the money to fill the hole left by tax cuts and reduced audits of corporations in Wisconsin.

    The labor agreements show that the pension plan money is part of the total negotiated compensation. The key phrase, in those agreements I read (emphasis added), is: “The Employer shall contribute on behalf of the employee.” This shows that this is just divvying up the total compensation package, so much for cash wages, so much for paid vacations, so much for retirement, etc.
    So the right question — the only question — is whether government workers are getting an overall good deal compared with private-sector workers. Why, then, are we hearing so much about the meaningless contribution comparison?

    The answer is simple: it’s because doing the comparison right doesn’t yield the desired answer. The new report by the Times gets the same answer as other studies: low-paid government workers do a bit better than their private-sector counterparts, but others if anything do worse.

    Luo and Cooper report this as a “mixed answer” — but in terms of the political debate, it’s a body blow to the union-bashers, whose whole position is that public-sector workers are welfare queens in Cadillacs. They need to show outrageous overpayment, not rough equivalence at best.

    And so they turn to a meaningless comparison that, to the unwary, sounds as if it supports their case.

    Yes, some public-sector workers are overpaid. So are some private-sector workers. Doesn’t anyone read Dilbert? But the whole idea that union excesses are at the core of state and local fiscal problems is false, and only deliberate obfuscation keeps that from being obvious.
    http://tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Pe...S?OpenDocument
    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/201...gman&seid=auto
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/us...s.html?_r=2&hp

    The Times’s analysis found that, overall, median wages for state workers exceeded that of private-sector workers in all but three states — Indiana, Missouri and New Hampshire. Those overall numbers, however, can be deceptive. State workers tend to be more highly educated than those in the private sector: more than half of state workers possess college degrees, compared with just over one-quarter of those in the private sector. Researchers have also said that states tend to employ few high school dropouts.

    “Because the public sector is much more likely to be highly educated, we would fully expect them to earn more on average because of that, just like we would expect somebody with a master’s degree to earn more than somebody with a high school education,” said Keith A. Bender, an economics professor at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, who has studied public- and private-sector compensation.

    When workers are divided into two groups — those with bachelor’s degrees and higher and those without — a very different pattern emerges. State workers with college degrees earn less, often substantially less, than private-sector workers with the same education in all but three states — Montana, Nevada and Wyoming.

    Less-educated workers on state payrolls, however, tend to do better than their counterparts in the private sector. The median wages of state workers without bachelor’s degrees are higher than those in the private sector in 30 states. California, New York, Connecticut and Nevada lead the way, each paying workers without degrees at least 25 percent more than the private sector pays those workers.
    Last edited by BroadwayJoe; 02-25-2011 at 01:34 PM.

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    The police union president responds to Walker's request to clear the capitol building of protesters.

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    Republican lawmakers want to kick protesters out of the Capitol at night now to put an end to the protest sleepovers that have been going on since this started. They already restricted protesters to areas outside of hearing rooms and legislative offices as of tomorrow, as well as limiting non-staff to 8 at a time in the legislative offices.

    In response, the police union sent this out:

    MADISON—Following action by lawmakers to approve a rule change that clears the way for closing down the State Capitol and ejecting the people protesting Governor Walker’s bill to curtail union activity, the head of the Wisconsin Professional Police Association called on the governor today to keep the capitol building open and allow the peaceful protesters to remain.

    “The law enforcement officers from across the state that have been working at the Capitol and have been very impressed with how peaceful everyone has been,” said WPPA Executive Director Jim Palmer. “As has been reported in the media, the protesters are cleaning up after themselves and have not caused any problems. The fact of that matter is that Wisconsin’s law enforcement community opposes Governor Walker’s effort to eliminate most union activity in this state, and we implore him to not do anything to increase the risk to officers and the public. The costs of providing security can never outweigh those associated with a conflict.”

    Palmer also announced that, beginning tonight, the WPPA is formally requesting its members from across the state to come to the Capitol to sleep amongst the throngs of other union supporters.

    “Law enforcement officers know the difference between right and wrong, and Governor Walker’s attempt to eliminate the collective voice of Wisconsin’s devoted public employees is wrong,” continued Palmer. “That is why we have stood with our fellow employees each day and why we will be sleeping among them tonight.”

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    4 minutes and you would have had it, Raife

    Also, Shepard Smith breaks it down Barney-style for his audience. Come to think of it, who is his audience?

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    Pfft, the pdf wouldn't paste correctly. I had to mess with the spacing by hand thanks to Republican lawmakers outlawing direct pdf text transfers for state residents when they pertain to collective bargaining. My post was way better anyway, particularly for lazy people.

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    David Cay Johnson is right. But the focus is on pensions b/c db plans are not viable going forward. DCJ says a properly administered plan, but the problem is that DB plans are no properly administered, which is one reason that accounting principles are changing. And of course the fact that public pension plans and politicians assign rate of returns that are ridiculous. CALPERS assumes a 8% annual rate of return. Their rate of return in the last decade is half that and going forward most economists doubt that 8% is viable.

    DBs plans could work if their indexed to life expectancy or the ability to pay. Too often unions/politicians have agreed to lower wages by jacking up pension payouts to unsustainable levels. Politicians agree to this b/c they'll be out of office and don't have to take the heat of constraining budgets.

    I am enjoying the sweet, sweet schadenfraude as Montgomery Cty MD, one of the bluest counties in the nation, is screwed by their pension/payroll obligations. The city council is in a huge fight with their public unions leading to such delicious exchanges with the city council composed of at least 1 former union organizer being compared to Scott Walker b/c the local union is unwilling to compromise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Sharp View Post
    To prove what, exactly? That was a disgusting display by the Democrats, IMO. But you see this is some sort of proud moment for Democrats everywhere, and some sign that the Democrats are different and/or better? They looked like idiots. They lost a vote, and they protested it in session. It looked like some sort of Parliamentary display of foolish emotion.

    Use logic and reason to win this battle. Wearing matching T-shirts and chanting 'shame' is actually the exact same sort of mob mentality bullshit the Republicans use.
    You didn't read the part about how the vote was administered, did you?

  16. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank austin View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA9KC8SMu3o

    Barack Obama in Spartanburg, SC. Nov. 3rd, 2007.

    "And understand this: If American workers are being denied their right to organize and collectively bargain when I'm in the White House, I'll put on a comfortable pair of shoes myself, I'll will walk on that picket line with you as President of the United States of America. Because workers deserve to know that somebody is standing in their corner."
    Yeah, they've played that clip a lot in the last couple of days. It really is an effective way to encapsulate liberal dissappointment. Honestly, I think that clip will come back to haunt him in 2012 assuming there's no token appearance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Theman View Post
    Yeah, they've played that clip a lot in the last couple of days. It really is an effective way to encapsulate liberal dissappointment. Honestly, I think that clip will come back to haunt him in 2012 assuming there's no token appearance.
    That was Candidate Obama, a completely different person from President Obama.

  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brettmcd View Post
    That was Candidate Obama, a completely different person from President Obama.
    Oh, no doubt. I just think it's going to be potentially poisonous for him as opposed to the typical rhetoric that never bears fruit from every other candidate.

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    Yes, the president should totally get involved in local state politics in a sound-bitish capacity.

    Good joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Theman View Post
    Honestly, I think that clip will come back to haunt him in 2012 assuming there's no token appearance.
    Why? We already got the token acknowledgement of labor rights. We need a token appearance as well?

    Things are going to get a lot worse before they get any better. This may be the most visible example of republicans using the cover of deficit cutting to advance political goals, but it certainly isn't the last. Obama has a big enough fight on his hands nationally; he doesn't need to seek out new arenas to lose in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrmolecule88 View Post
    Yes, the president should totally get involved in local state politics in a sound-bitish capacity.

    Good joke.
    I'm not suggesting he should. Heck, I voted for him once and I'll likely vote for him again. I'm merely recognizing it was a particularly bad thing for him to have said given the inability to follow through (and seriously, I would think showing up to hang out at a public protest would be an unacceptable security risk, anyway, especially given the recent "who's going to shoot him?" debacle).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolonial View Post
    Why? We already got the token acknowledgement of labor rights. We need a token appearance as well?
    I'm seeing it as a perfect sound bite to throw out there in a society that seems to be obsessed with them: <him> "I'll stand with you" ... <deep, ominous voice> "So, President Obama, where were you?"

    I'm just looking at tactics, guys, not effectiveness in leadership.

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    That's only a tactic someone would use if they were going to primary him for the Democratic nomination, which isn't going to happen.

    Republicans aren't going to scold him for not fighting their own plans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo View Post
    That's only a tactic someone would use if they were going to primary him for the Democratic nomination, which isn't going to happen.

    Republicans aren't going to scold him for not fighting their own plans.
    You think? I was expecting the Republicans to use the isolation of the issue in case the anti-union moves backfire (which I hope they do). But I suppose you're right, it would likely be too much of a stretch to make it believable to anyone not already in their base.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Theman View Post
    You think? I was expecting the Republicans to use the isolation of the issue in case the anti-union moves backfire (which I hope they do). But I suppose you're right, it would likely be too much of a stretch to make it believable to anyone not already in their base.
    I'm just not sure how that goes.

    Republican ad: Obama promised to stand with the working men and women in unions when we fucked them over. Where were you, then, Barrack, when we lived up to our word and busted the unions in Wisconsin?!

    or maybe:
    Barack Obama promised to stand with the working men and women in unions when we fucked them over. But he stayed in Washington when we busted them up in Wisconsin. So, uh...thanks, Mr. President?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzo View Post
    I'm just not sure how that goes.

    Republican ad: Obama promised to stand with the working men and women in unions when we fucked them over. Where were you, then, Barrack, when we lived up to our word and busted the unions in Wisconsin?!

    or maybe:
    Barack Obama promised to stand with the working men and women in unions when we fucked them over. But he stayed in Washington when we busted them up in Wisconsin. So, uh...thanks, Mr. President?
    Yeah, I'm not sure how a Republican candidate frames an attack in the way Dan Theman is envisioning it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizard_King View Post
    The police union president responds to Walker's request to clear the capitol building of protesters.
    This kind of drives home the point that unions breed slackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolonial View Post
    This kind of drives home the point that unions breed slackers.
    I`m not sure I follow your logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morberis View Post
    I`m not sure I follow your logic.
    By "logic" do you mean "joke"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BroadwayJoe View Post
    Interesting stuff from Krugman and David Johnston here:
    That pretty much destroys the entire Republican narrative on this issue. Their whole argument is a fraud.

    After the "Koch" phone call, how is this guy still governor?

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    Quote Originally Posted by strummer View Post
    By "logic" do you mean "joke"?

    I dunno, it definitely looks like one but I`ve read too much P&R to just assume something like that in here is one.

    He could have meant they were slackers for sleeping with them instead of ushering them out, to the protesters for being too peaceful-for doing things differently from teapartiers. I grant you they`re all marginal, but...

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