Wisconsin governor goes bonkers

[Ranulf]

You should be satisfied with status quo then. Nobody is FORCED to join a union. Not a single person. It's a choice they make, much like joining any other labor or standards based organization.

What you really mean is you think people should be able to have any job they want and enjoy all the benefits of a union environment without supporting those socialist libruls. Too fucking bad.

Yes, they are forced if its closed shop like in WI. Oh sure, they can go into another profession or look for a private school job. Of course, a majority of the customers (kids) for the teacher's wares (readin, writin, 'rithmatic) are in public schools. Its rather amusing that WI teachers are complaining about collective bargaining (and that the law would make it an open shop state, aka dont have to join the union) yet they have a captive "consumer" in students (law compels them to be in a school till 18/majority age). Do the students get a choice on where they go for a state (paid) education? Vouchers are verboten.

[BroadwayJoe]

Indiana Dems just fled the state:

House Democrats are leaving the state rather than vote on anti-union legislation, The Indianapolis Star has learned.

A source said Democrats are headed to Illinois, though it was possible some also might go to Kentucky. They need to go to a state with a Democratic governor to avoid being taken into police custody and returned to Indiana.

The House was came into session this morning, with only two of the 40 Democrats present. Those two were needed to make a motion, and a seconding motion, for any procedural steps Democrats would want to take to ensure Republicans don’t do anything official without quorum.

http://www.indystar.com/article/2011...t|IndyStar.com

[snowcrash22]

24o*Y

[BroadwayJoe]

This is one of the bills the Indiana GOP is trying to rush through right now that prompted all of this:

Right to work. Makes it a Class A misdemeanor for an employer to require an individual to: (1) become or remain a member of a labor organization; (2) pay dues, fees, or other charges to a labor organization; or (3) pay to a charity or another third party an amount that represents dues, fees, or other charges required of members of a labor organization; as a condition of employment or continuation of employment. Establishes a separate private right of action for violations or threatened violations. Exempts individuals employed in the construction industry, employed by the United States, or subject to the federal Railway Labor Act.

http://indiana.onpolitix.com/legisla...-right-to-work

[jeffd]

Yep the Indiana bill is pretty much an attempt to kill private unions.

Kevin Drum had a really good article in Mother Jones today that I'll link when I get home. It does a good job of laying out the the stakes of these battles and puts them in their historical context.

[Anders Hallin]

Yep the Indiana bill is pretty much an attempt to kill private unions.

Kevin Drum had a really good article in Mother Jones today that I'll link when I get home. It does a good job of laying out the the stakes of these battles and puts them in their historical context.

Ahem.

Plutocracy Now: What Wisconsin Is Really About
Kevin Drum's longer form article about the decline of labour unions, what it means for the political scene, and why it's an issue at heart of the liberal and progressive struggle.

[Raife]

Kevin Drum had a pretty good article about the decline of labor unions, too. Also, Populous.

[Eduardo X]

I love organizing unions in Populous.

My union just had a nice solidarity rally in Champaign. We had about a hundred people turn out with a days notice.

[Houngan]

Good article, it makes a strong case for unions from a different angle.

H.

[TheTrunkDr]

Yes, they are forced if its closed shop like in WI. Oh sure, they can go into another profession or look for a private school job. Of course, a majority of the customers (kids) for the teacher's wares (readin, writin, 'rithmatic) are in public schools. Its rather amusing that WI teachers are complaining about collective bargaining (and that the law would make it an open shop state, aka dont have to join the union) yet they have a captive "consumer" in students (law compels them to be in a school till 18/majority age). Do the students get a choice on where they go for a state (paid) education? Vouchers are verboten.

Private school is a legitimate option for both teachers and students as is another profession for teachers. So yes they have a choice if they don't want to join a union.

Life is a series of compromises. If you don't want to be in a union then you're choosing not to be a public school teacher in WI. I would like to sit on my ass play games, watch TV and movies and earn $100mil a year, life is so cruel and unfair that that can't be my reality.

[triggercut]

Private school is a legitimate option for both teachers and students as is another profession for teachers. So yes they have a choice if they don't want to join a union.

Life is a series of compromises. If you don't want to be in a union then you're choosing not to be a public school teacher in WI. I would like to sit on my ass play games, watch TV and movies and earn $100mil a year, life is so cruel and unfair that that can't be my reality.

Those private schools need teachers, do they?

Can I get a cite on how many are hiring, and which ones don't have religious education certification pre-conditions on that hiring they're doing?

[AaronSofaer]

Those private schools need teachers, do they?

Can I get a cite on how many are hiring, and which ones don't have religious education certification pre-conditions on that hiring they're doing?

Are you suggesting that secular private schools do not need to hire teachers?

[triggercut]

Private school is a legitimate option for both teachers and students as is another profession for teachers. So yes they have a choice if they don't want to join a union.

Life is a series of compromises. If you don't want to be in a union then you're choosing not to be a public school teacher in WI. I would like to sit on my ass play games, watch TV and movies and earn $100mil a year, life is so cruel and unfair that that can't be my reality.

Yeah, revisiting this, this might be the stupidest analogy I've seen in this thread so far.

[triggercut]

Are you suggesting that secular private schools do not need to hire teachers?

I'm sure they do! Schools need teachers. So, you've got thousands and thousands of public school teachers. How many secular private schools are there in WI, and how many of them are actively hiring? How many jobs we talkin' about?

I mean, ol' TrunkDR says that working at a private school is a legitimate option for Wisconsin's teachers. I want to see some data points that suggests that it is indeed a legitimate option.

[Lizard_King]

Private school is a legitimate option for both teachers and students as is another profession for teachers. So yes they have a choice if they don't want to join a union.

Life is a series of compromises. If you don't want to be in a union then you're choosing not to be a public school teacher in WI. I would like to sit on my ass play games, watch TV and movies and earn $100mil a year, life is so cruel and unfair that that can't be my reality.

It's an option, but not necessarily in keeping with what teachers want to do with their careers especially if they are interested in working with a balanced or underprivileged population. Unions are good because they counterbalance another necessary evil, not because they are objectively virtuous in their own right without checks. Ultimately, the goal should be to help the individual employee and the organization find common ground, and you don't need closed shops or fuck you analogies about sitting on your ass with 100m to make that happen.

The biggest problem with this argument is that it constantly switches between budget baiting and "think of the children" nonsense. Clearly the budget can be balanced without removing collective bargaining. Clearly the quality of education that children receive is not dependent on union rights as a primary variable. There's plenty of space in between those positions.

[AaronSofaer]

I'm sure they do! Schools need teachers. So, you've got thousands and thousands of public school teachers. How many secular private schools are there in WI, and how many of them are actively hiring? How many jobs we talkin' about?

I think you'd find that there is a higher proportion of teachers in private schools as compared to public schools than there is of students in private schools as compared to public schools.

But I'm not actually sure what anyone is arguing at this point. Maybe you guys could clarify your stances?

[wahoo]

Private school is a legitimate option for both teachers and students as is another profession for teachers. So yes they have a choice if they don't want to join a union.

Private school is an option for students? Yeah if your parents can pay the freight or send you to catholic school.

But for private school to be such a legitimate option, how about tossing me back my tax dollars for the public schools? Otherwise, private school isn't really an option in many families unless there's a scholarship $$$.

[triggercut]

But I'm not actually sure what anyone is arguing at this point.

Yeah, that was pretty obvious.

[Black Isis]

I love organizing unions in Populous.

My union just had a nice solidarity rally in Champaign. We had about a hundred people turn out with a days notice.

Oh, is that what that was? I was wondering what was going on on the way back from lunch.

[Houngan]

Can we talk about how most schools are primarily state-funded daycare? Huh, can we? Because if we want to get into the nuts and bolts of what we're actually teaching kids vs. cost and time, it's a whole 'nother thing.

H.

[Tortilla]

Can we talk about how most schools are primarily state-funded daycare? Huh, can we?

Okay lets. State-funded daycare is awesome and should be extended to infants and toddlers as well.

[triggercut]

Can we talk about how most schools are primarily state-funded daycare? Huh, can we? Because if we want to get into the nuts and bolts of what we're actually teaching kids vs. cost and time, it's a whole 'nother thing.

H.

I think that's a huge part of it too.

[Tim James]

Can we talk about how most schools are primarily state-funded daycare? Huh, can we? Because if we want to get into the nuts and bolts of what we're actually teaching kids vs. cost and time, it's a whole 'nother thing.

Which is why I said earlier I don't think it's worth fretting about teachers unions. They're walking dead. They'll exist to press play on Khan Academy videos.

In a few decades they'll be fighting over whether it's required to tip at the end of the day, and if boyfriends are allowed in the classroom after 2pm.

[BroadwayJoe]

What is going on in Wisconsin isn't just an attack on the teachers union, but the unions of most public employees (except those that are political allies of the Governor). Look at the GOP union busting in Indiana: They are trying to break private unions. This isn't about teachers alone.

[BroadwayJoe]

Which is why I said earlier I don't think it's worth fretting about teachers unions. They're walking dead. They'll exist to press play on Khan Academy videos.

In a few decades they'll be fighting over whether it's required to tip at the end of the day, and if boyfriends are allowed in the classroom after 2pm.

Spoken by a man who knows little about what teachers actually do in the classroom.

[Houngan]

Spoken by a man who knows little about what teachers actually do in the classroom.

Oh, I don't really blame the teachers, I blame our arch-capitalist society and sheer bad luck of prosperity to the point of decadence. We made them into nannies, not the other way around.

H.

[Sharpe]

As the Drum article points out, this is not really about the issues of one state or one particular budget crisis. This is about the existence of unions as a countervailing force on economic issues against the power of corporations and the very wealthy. Drum makes the case that, despite their flaws, unions have been the primary force advocating for the economic rights of the working and middle classes for most of the last century. Unions achieved a number of economic reforms including things like the 40 hour work week, paid vacations, and so forth that many of us take for granted, but were hardfought for by unions against strident employer opposition. Drum hopes for either a revitalization of unions or the emergence of some new pro-working & middle class political force, to balance the increasing unipolarity of American economic and political power.

I would add two things to Drum's analysis. First, when unions have focused on the needs of their individual members rather than being part of a broad progressive labor movement, that's when the negatives we associate with unions tend to come forward: onerous work rules, excessive contracts, ridiculous benefits, etc. So my own prescription going forward is that if unions want to remain relevant they have to focus on continuing their role as being a bastion of working class/middle class advocacy more generally than just helping their individual membership. This is one of the those "we must hang together or we will surely hang separately" situations.

Second, does anyone here (other than known trolls) really believe that this dispute is just a single issue, based on one state's budget crisis, and not part of a coordinated political attack on unions by organized anti-union advocates? The mere fact that this dispute has now arisen in at least one other state (Indiana) shows the broader implications, and the well known activities of anti-union advocates like the Koch brothers, to me, indicate quite strongly that this is not about the low level economics of balancing a budget right now but is actually a coordinated political attack, with one political faction trying to use its majority power to literally destroy the other political faction. Using the apparatus of governance for purely partisan purposes is deeply un-American and should be disturbing to everyone here, even if you are anti-union. I mean, does anyone here REALLY believe that the anti-union forces will stop once they've legally castrated public employee unions? That they will just say "hey, we will balance the budget and move on to other topics". Yeah, right. And I'm not just making a slippery slope argument: I think you can look at the pattern of conduct here and see that this is an opening salvo in an organized campaign. Honestly, many of the same arguments about public employee unions, could, with a little tweaking, be made against private unions. The same organizational apparatus could be aimed at private unions quite easily. If you think private unions are safe if this wave of anti-union laws is successful, then I have a fine bridge to sell to you, very cheap (relatively), nice location.

[Anaxagoras]

Oh, I don't really blame the teachers, I blame our arch-capitalist society and sheer bad luck of prosperity to the point of decadence. We made them into nannies, not the other way around.

H.

Joe wasn't talking about blame. He was talking about what teachers actually do in the classroom. (As indicated by his phrase "what teachers actually do in the classroom".) In other words, they do much more than babysit kids.

[Anaxagoras]

I mean, does anyone here REALLY believe that the anti-union forces will stop once they've legally castrated public employee unions? That they will just say "hey, we will balance the budget and move on to other topics". Yeah, right. And I'm not just making a slippery slope argument: I think you can look at the pattern of conduct here and see that this is an opening salvo in an organized campaign. Honestly, many of the same arguments about public employee unions, could, with a little tweaking, be made against private unions. The same organizational apparatus could be aimed at private unions quite easily. If you think private unions are safe if this wave of anti-union laws is successful, then I have a fine bridge to sell to you, very cheap (relatively), nice location.

I'm pretty sure that the people that are anti-public employee union are also anti-private union as well. (The potshots against teachers are just the usual low-brow ignorant jokes that such people tend to make.) So I'm not sure there's much point or benefit to talking about the eventual elimination of private unions.

[Tim James]

Spoken by a man who knows little about what teachers actually do in the classroom.

It doesn't matter what they do now. I simply envision our education system undergoing rapid changes from the way it's been done for the last 150 years. I don't have a blog post laying out proof for my forecast. It's just an observation of the poor value from the status quo, and recent developments thanks to the Internet and technology. I think education will look completely different from what it is now, so the old battle lines will be irrelevant.

Of course the 19th century structure could carry on long past its due, so I can't put a date on it. But I don't see a future in it.