Just Lost Job - Coping/Job Hunting Advice Needed

[BaconTastesGood]

Yes, you need more information, but the two least reliable sources of that information are yourself (unless you're able to be incredibly objective) and your potential employer (who is not invested, at all, in helping you continue your job search).

If the concerns are legitimate then they may bring them up as a negotiating point, e.g. "We feel you're not skilled enough for our senior SEO position but would be willing to deliver you an offer for our intern position at half the salary", but if their concerns AREN'T defensible they may open up legal issues. There's no incentive for them to bring up anything subjective about demeanor, personality, presentation, whatever, in their list of concerns, especially since those are not something a candidate can usually address.

That these have not been brought up as negotiating points usually means that their concerns are deep seated (i.e. they don't think the candidate is good or has the potential to be good or the salary discrepancy seems too high) or too subjective (i.e. candidate will not fit into the company culture, is too demanding, smells bad, whatever).

Stepsongrapes is 100% on the money again. Recruiters absolutely should be vetting salary range before the interview process -- have the recruiters not been asking for salary information and verifying it with the employers? If they HAVE been doing this and then after a lack of offer they don't get back to you at all, I'd be worried.

[Brian Rubin]

Well, here's what I'm confused with. The recruiters I've worked with at agencies know my salary history, and yet have still gotten me interviews that have gone nowhere.

In interviews I've gotten on my own, I've not given a salary requirement/history unless specifically asked for it. Many times it was requested on the job posting, so I sent it along with my cover letter and resume. Several of these led to interviews that went nowhere.

Many other times though, more often than not, the salary thing could come up during the interview itself, and yet while no one at these interviews told me I was too expensive to my face, it may be that they decided that after I gave them my answer.

So, if I'm still getting a decent chunk of interviews despite my former salary being known, and these interviews go nowhere ultimately, then logic dictates that something during the interview itself is causing the problem, correct?

[Mike O'Malley]

If you were interviewing in a vacuum, yes, but you're not. There might be other candidates, the position may have been withdrawn...it's not, from your POV, a deterministic system. Part of it will always come down to rolling dice.

Regarding asking for concerns- I've never heard of that resulting in anything positive. I don't do it myself, but I've witnessed it turning into an overly-sensitive, defensive protracted back and forth that benefited neither side. If the interviewer has concerns, he's going to avoid getting into them with you and take them to his peer group. They'll take those concerns up with you after the meeting.

Also, loincloths may be appropriate in some crazy iconoclast hipster coding commune, but you really can't go wrong with a suit.

[triggercut]

So if they have concerns, they tell me they don't have concerns and lie to my face? Awesome, can't learn that way I s'pose.

You seem to think an interviewer has any obligation to care about you.

Why?

An interviewer has a gajillion things to care about related to their work and hiring a new employee for their operation. They have no reason or requirement to connect with you in any way or give you any sort of frank feedback.

Lemme put it this way: if an interviewer has "concerns", they've addressed them for good or ill in the interview process. They're under no obligation to share those concerns with you. They've got other folks to interview, other things to do on the job. When they're done talking to you about a job opening, they're done with you. Either they'll offer you a position (in which case, great), or they won't, in which case all they want to do is quickly move on to the rest of their day at work.

In other words, the interviewers aren't "lying" to you per se, they're facilitating moving forward with the busy things they're paid to be concerned with at the jobs they occupy. Spending 10 or 20 minutes in a post-interview slap-and-tickle session with you isn't in their job description.

[GatInDaHat]

Well, here's what I'm confused with. The recruiters I've worked with at agencies know my salary history, and yet have still gotten me interviews that have gone nowhere.

In interviews I've gotten on my own, I've not given a salary requirement/history unless specifically asked for it. Many times it was requested on the job posting, so I sent it along with my cover letter and resume. Several of these led to interviews that went nowhere.

Many other times though, more often than not, the salary thing could come up during the interview itself, and yet while no one at these interviews told me I was too expensive to my face, it may be that they decided that after I gave them my answer.

So, if I'm still getting a decent chunk of interviews despite my former salary being known, and these interviews go nowhere ultimately, then logic dictates that something during the interview itself is causing the problem, correct?

You need to print out this thread and study it in detail. There's a treasure trove of suggestions, links, encouragement, etc.. and you're still mumbling "gosh there's got to be something I'm doing wrong.. " Yes it's time to man up the time for empathy has been over for awhile.

[Brian Rubin]

You seem to think an interviewer has any obligation to care about you.

Why?

Heh, good point.

If you were interviewing in a vacuum, yes, but you're not. There might be other candidates, the position may have been withdrawn...it's not, from your POV, a deterministic system. Part of it will always come down to rolling dice.

That makes me feel a tad better.

You need to print out this thread and study it in detail. There's a treasure trove of suggestions, links, encouragement, etc.. and you're still mumbling "gosh there's got to be something I'm doing wrong.. " Yes it's time to man up the time for empathy has been over for awhile.

That's kind of what I'm trying to do here.

[BaconTastesGood]

So, if I'm still getting a decent chunk of interviews despite my former salary being known, and these interviews go nowhere ultimately, then logic dictates that something during the interview itself is causing the problem, correct?

Yes. A thousand times yes. It's not a GIVEN, because it CAN be dumb luck or market conditions or a bunch of other things, but over time as your hit rate drops, you have to start accepting that likeliest answer is something in the interview process.

By analogy, say a talented artist with reasonable salary expectations and a cherry picked portfolio looks interesting. He shows up for an interview, comes off well, but then shows the rest of his portfolio and it's...average. Not horrible, but not at the standard of his centerpieces. But the salary requirements assume output at a level consistent with the center pieces. And maybe on top of that he kind of fudged about how well he knew Photoshop since he's more of an Illustrator guy.

That kind of person can easily get his foot in the door dozens of times and then find out that he's not getting offers.

Maybe something like that is happening with you, it's hard to say with the data available, but given the current opportunity/success ratio, yeah, something's up. And it's interesting to me that you seem to be having success with freelancing, so that's something to think about.

[PapaSmurf]

What BTG said.

Often it's a very subtle thing, like the way you answer questions (tone of voice, body language, facial expressions, over-eagerness... something) but it's also something that's a consistent trigger across a wide range of hiring managers.

For example, I, when I meet the foremen/general foremen/superintendents that sub-contractors send to my sites, have become very adept at weeding out people I wouldn't like to work with for the months or years a project may take to complete. Those very things I listed are exactly what I look for. The answers themselves are obviously part of the equation, but not all of it. The right answer or question, expressed the wrong way, will have me calling the contractor fairly quickly to send a replacement.

I understand and accept that I may be excluding a small to large percentage of people I would like to work with, but what matters to me is that the people that do filter through, are people I usually don't have significant problems with.

I had a superintendent from the major electrical contractor replaced on this current job because of the change in his tone of voice when dealing with me vs. his subordinates. I came on towards the end of this job and simply hearing the way he talked to people under him on the phone and in person, a few offices down from mine, as opposed to his tone with me, drove me nuts. I like a team atmosphere and despite his above average results in construction, his baglicking of superiors such as myself (especially the whining/pleading tone when blaming others) and his arrogant style with his general foremen had him shortlisted. He departed the site a week ago and we lost nothing in terms of efficiency, although workers have been more slack in their breaks.

[Brian Rubin]

Heh, so the problem IS me, but hey, if that's the case, it's something I can fix. I've faced and dealt with bigger problems in my life before.

[SlyFrog]

You need to print out this thread and study it in detail. There's a treasure trove of suggestions, links, encouragement, etc.. and you're still mumbling "gosh there's got to be something I'm doing wrong.. " Yes it's time to man up the time for empathy has been over for awhile.

To be fair, it can be time for both improvement and empathy. I think we all understand the difficulty of finding something that by definition you are not aware of (because if you were aware of exactly what it was, you'd fix it). Again, it's not a value judgment against Brian Rubin - we all have blindspots. They key is that he is beginning to realize that he may have some in his interview process or story, and that he will start moving to try to fix them.

[Guido Jones]

Wouldn't removing the entire thread remove links as well?

That was a comment about removing a link to your name from the quote, and me making a reference to another thread about a certain TV show and spoilers.

[Brian Rubin]

Ah, I think I get it.

[Brian Rubin]

I got a call from a recruiter today in the Los Angeles branch of a recruiting firm I worked with on the east coast several months ago (that ended up being five interviews that went nowhere). After talking about my background and such, I asked them if they offer interview assistance, and they do! They sent me some articles to read, and we're gonna schedule some time for me to come in and get some interview help, so yay!

[Brian Rubin]

So I just had a phone interview with what may have been one of the most honest people I've ever interviewed with. It was for a position that revolved mostly around paid search engine marketing (95% of my background is in organic search engine optimization), and I was honest about what I knew about SEM. He, in turn, was honest with me about concerns he had about my abilities (or lack thereof) and was very pleasant about it. It was quite refreshing, given that most folks tell me nothing.

On another note, after talking to some folks at jury duty last week who were search engine marketers, I've decided to get certified in Google AdWords so I can dabble in SEM as well, which will hopefully make me more attractive to potential employers. I also got some useful interview advice from a recruiter recently, which in conjunction with the wonderful interview advice thread will hopefully help me to do better on my next in-person interview.

So hey, progress. :) How are y'all doing in your own job dramas?

[Mike O'Malley]

Just started a new position on Monday, thanks. It's great so far :) Got a birthday party and I've only been here three days.

[Stepsongrapes]

I've decided to get certified in Google AdWords so I can dabble in SEM as well, which will hopefully make me more attractive to potential employers.

While I'm sure that more skills always help, keep in mind that you're getting an abundant number of interviews, just not offers. That signals to me that you look good enough on paper, which is usually where certifications matter.

In other words, I'd be cautious about focusing on this as a major weakness to be addressed.

[Brian Rubin]

Congrats, Mike! :)

[Brian Rubin]

While I'm sure that more skills always help, keep in mind that you're getting an abundant number of interviews, just not offers. That signals to me that you look good enough on paper, which is usually where certifications matter.

In other words, I'd be cautious about focusing on this as a major weakness to be addressed.

It's just one weakness my friend, my other is obviously somewhere in the interview itself, which I'm working on as well. :)

[Brian Rubin]

Hey y'all! Today I have my first actual interview in a while, followed by another one tomorrow. Thanks to this thread, the job interview tips thread as well as help from some recruiters who've given me a bunch of interview tips, I hope to take what I've learned and do a better job in these upcoming interviews than in my previous sessions. :) Whee!

[Nixxter]

Karma being beamed your way Brian as we speak. Go gettem tiger!

[Brian Rubin]

Thank you kindly. :) Rowr.

[Mike O'Malley]

Just remember that during the interview they're imagining you naked.

[Brian Rubin]

Hahahaha.

I think that interview went better than previous ones. Having pre-written questions to ask really helped me feel more confident and prepared, and they seem to appreciate that I took notes during the interview as well. I hope it went okay overall.

[JeffL]

Hey Brian, I haven't been following this thread lately, but best of luck. I don't know you personally, but from your posts here you seem like someone with a lot to offer.

[Brian Rubin]

Hey Brian, I haven't been following this thread lately, but best of luck. I don't know you personally, but from your posts here you seem like someone with a lot to offer.

Aaawww, thanks man. :-)

[BleedTheFreak]

Good luck! Don't forget that thank-you e-mail tomorrow afternoon to the people who took time out of their day to interview you. :)

[Brian Rubin]

I sent that yesterday, and the main guy I talked to wrote back and said I could ask him more questions, so I did. :) Sadly I misspelled his name in the first reply, but apologized and corrected it in the second. I hope that was okay.

I had another interview today which ended up being with four people, and I think it went well. They seemed to like my answers, appreciated that I had pre-written questions and notes, and we all really seemed to get along. I should find out about that one on Monday (also, they weren't sure whether the job would be freelance or full-time, I tried to convince them that full-time was better, not just for me, but for them). :)

[dtolman]

Looks like I'll be reading through this thread after I'm done packing my boxes up :(
13 years... first job out of college :(

[Eilonwy]

Ugh, sorry dtolman. It sucks.

[Brian Rubin]

Looks like I'll be reading through this thread after I'm done packing my boxes up :(
13 years... first job out of college :(

Ugh, sorry man! :-( Good luck!