World Of Tanks

[PapaSmurf]

I don't really see the need to re-balance the tiers. With few exceptions (Hetzer comes to mind), all tanks are capable of either scouting or damage at some point or another in their individual tech trees. There are certain situations, like the stock KV or stock Tiger, where the game is borderline unplayable, but I think those could be fixed by reducing the repair costs on the tank itself, while increasing repair costs of add-ons that make those vehicles combat effective.

I made it into the Pz IV and T-34 without great difficulty before I discovered premium. It was somewhat slow and tedious, but that's the point of playing "free".

If you setup tiered battles, I think what we'll see is basically the uselessness of high-end tanks. Their mortality rate vs their own kind is going to be high and they won't get the 3 or 4 kills necessary to break even. Besides, battles with all King Tigers/IS-3s/Ferdinands will suck.

The sweet spot will be in getting the best tank of the mid tier, whether that's a tier 4 Pz IV or a tier 5 VK3601.

The current setup works fine. Granted, you're stuck playing either Karelia, Malinovka, or Himmelsdorf about 60% of the time, but even those maps can be fun. If anything they should just load at a reduced frequency.

[Dave Markell]

Tiered battles are coming whether you want them or not, so get used to the idea :-). They will be more historically accurate (Marder II's weren't trying to penetrate IS-3+ armor) and much more fun for the lower tier tanks as a result. The current EU beta setup is much more fun for the high tier tanks, who can one-shot vehicles they rarely or never saw during WW2 that can't hurt them in return. High-tier battles will not be useless. Credits are based on the quality of what you damage or kill. The high-tier vehicles currently need lots of kills to break even precisely because they aren't generally fighting each other.

[Stridergg]

IMO Dave is right - while BT-7 can still scout in a battle full of Tigers, it's absolutely not fun, they might as well give me a bicycle to scout because BT-7 can't penetrate even KV, not even talking about IS-3. Often I wouldn't even bother to shoot - shots cost credits and what's the point if even IF I penetrate with 1 shot out of 5, I will do 2% damage to it?

Driving around without shooting is not my idea of a fun tank game and that's what I was doing most of the time on BT-7 and A-20. Yes, once in a while you'd encounter a fellow (enemy) A-20 but usually those duels would end with a 100mm round up my ass from some IS. :)

I also like Dave's idea of giving the player a choice but I don't think this is what the devs are envisioning atm. The way it works now (when it works, hehe) is you press "Ready" and you get randomly placed into a game where you are either on top or somewhere in the middle or at the bottom of the food chain. This way my A-20 gets to shoot some BT-2's and BT-7's in one game, fight against T-34's and KV's in another and run around (or from) KV-3's in yet another game.

This kind of randomness keeps things fresh, challenging and lucrative (exp/credit wise), you never know who you will fight next and it's kinda cool.

Of course, most of the time the system didn't work and in 99% of games my A-20 was against IS-3's, Tiger II's and other JagdPanthers. Not fun. To the point where I dropped that line and decided to go through to the heavy tanks myself. I suffered enough. :)

[schurem]

another really fun thing you can do in an a20 (if you are not using the rapid fire gun) is to hunt artillery. you can damage all of them, and have a decent chance of a kill on all but the top tier soviet one. That one, also dubbed the school bus has some many hitpoints it will take too long to chip to death with your a20's paint chipper and you will catch a bullet in the process.

i cant fucking wait to get back into the game. 5k of gold should be awesome too.

[Supper's Ready]

I've suffered my share in the A-20 as well, but held on just long enough to get the T-34. Once equipped with the 57mm ZiS-4 gun, the T-34 becomes a machine well capable of destroying targets two tiers above it. Three tiers above even with some assistance.

I actually wish I hadn't sold it in order to get faster to the T-34-85, which in its stock model is nowhere near in effectiveness to its cousin one tier below. I was working towards the top tier 85mm gun for it when the break occurred, so we'll see if it become any better.

So I would recommend to any frustrated A-20 drivers to work through the pain and stick with it long enough to get to the T-34-57. This is the first of what I could call a money making machine. With premium it's a money printer. And really it's the first tank in that line that changes the gameplay from scouting and hoping to not die, to actually being effective in combat.

[Stridergg]

another really fun thing you can do in an a20 (if you are not using the rapid fire gun) is to hunt artillery. you can damage all of them, and have a decent chance of a kill on all but the top tier soviet one. That one, also dubbed the school bus has some many hitpoints it will take too long to chip to death with your a20's paint chipper and you will catch a bullet in the process.

i cant fucking wait to get back into the game. 5k of gold should be awesome too.

That's true, art hunting is a fun activity. :) The problem (problem only in this context, it's a good thing overal) with it though is that comparing to beta (or maybe simply as the time goes) I see more and more people realizing the importance of the defence. I would say 8 out of 10 times there would be some KV or JagdPanther nearby guarding those arts. Which makes this activity a lot like a suicide run and it's not much fun to play knowing that 75% of the time you will get killed within a minute.

For me to feel some attachment to my tank, it needs to have some longevity in battles.

[Dave Markell]

I would say 8 out of 10 times there would be some KV or JagdPanther nearby guarding those arts. Which makes this activity a lot like a suicide run and it's not much fun to play knowing that 75% of the time you will get killed within a minute.

I've taken to guarding the artillery from a square or two ahead in my VK and JpzIV. I'll hang there for a couple minutes at the start of most matches, waiting for the inevitable light vehicle rush so that I can pick up an easy kill or two and keep my team's arty alive. After the rush is dealt with, I examine how the battle's developing and decide where to go next. Medium vehicles work well in this role. They're strong enough to kill the scouts but still fast enough to go where they're needed once the rush is done.

[PapaSmurf]

Look, given the way scoring is right now, a tier 8 heavy has to kill at least another two tier 7-10 tanks to break even if he gets destroyed. Tiered battles will ruin player incomes.

No, blasting an IS with a Marder isn't that historical (though it did happen, ask the Hungarians and Romanians), but there are plenty of other tanks you can shoot. Moreover, you are out of that Marder so fast that it doesn't matter. It's a brief stepping stone. The Hetzer is more problematic since it has a weaker gun and is much slower, so it can't even scout. However, from tier 5 onwards, all units are capable of damaging all other units. The T-34 and T-28 can even hurt a Maus or IS-7 with their 57mm guns. And it's just not that hard to get to tier 5, with or without premium.

Once you throw in tiers you're going to see a whole bunch of new problems that really don't look any more fun to deal with. Low populations, twink tanks (you might not be able hurt that King Tiger in an A-20 but he's not really going to hurt you either unless you get stuck. But that T-34-85 with max crew and upgrades will be all over you.)

IMO, this will turn out to be a case of the cure being worse than the disease.

[PapaSmurf]

For me to feel some attachment to my tank, it needs to have some longevity in battles.

OK, are you playing just one tank?

Here's how I got to my T-44, in brief (I'm ignoring all my newbie mistakes like upgrading my Pz III fully etc.)

I got one of each starter tank. I alternated between them.

As soon as possible, I got a Pz II. I upgraded it and when that was done I started saving for BT-2.

As soon as possible, I got out of BT-2 into BT-7. I upgraded tracks, radio, and engine in it, then started working towards A-20.

Whenever I found myself in a situation with too much spare cash, I'd buy another tank. In the short run, this hurts. In the long run, once you have 3-4 decent tanks going, you can basically suicide scout every time and bring in a constant string of money. Once you hit tier 5, especially in a Pz IV, this stops being economical, so you play a bit smarter but aren't overly concerned with survival. Survival doesn't pay as well. The T-34-85 can still make 1-5k without doing much damage, but once you get the last 85mm gun (skip the 100 for now), you're better off fighting.

Getting attached to an A-20 or Panzer IV or anything like that is pointless.

By the time I got my T-44, I had this going:

T-34-85 for farming. Combat-oriented.

Leopard. Its job was to go in and die as fast as possible while scouting as much as possible. If possible, kill artillery.

Hummel. Not used much. The odds of a bad map + expensive ammo + the fact that you will survive the battle at least half the time means it's a bad farmer.

I was also saving up for a VK3601, since it's a ridiculous farming machine.

[Dave Markell]

Look, given the way scoring is right now, a tier 8 heavy has to kill at least another two tier 7-10 tanks to break even if he gets destroyed. Tiered battles will ruin player incomes.

The devs have made it clear that the high-tier tanks aren't supposed to show a profit without premium accounts. This makes sense for a "free" game whose revenue is going to be based on microtransactions--suck the free players in at the low levels, then charge them to keep playing at the high. And I'm certain that if high-tier tanks using premium can't show a profit once tiered battles are fully implemented, they'll buff the credits earned for those battles since that's where their revenue really kicks in.

IMO, this will be a case of the cure being far better than the disease, since all tiers will have better battles. Yes, the heavies who get their jollies crushing 3 to 5 low tier vehicles every game will whine about having their average kill numbers drop, but that will be more than compensated for by the PZ3's/Hetzers/A20's/etc. actually getting to play the roles their historical counterparts did.

[Gus_Smedstad]

Yes, the heavies who get their jollies crushing 3 to 5 low tier vehicles every game will whine about having their average kill numbers drop, but that will be more than compensated for by the PZ3's/Hetzers/A20's/etc. actually getting to play the roles their historical counterparts did.

Exactly. What I'd really like to see are battles where the lower-tier tank destroyers (Marder II and Hetzer) are fearsome. More than any other type, the TD's are crippled by the absurd match-ups. They don't have the speed to contribute as scouts, and they don't have the firepower they're supposed to have against like-era tanks. The Hetzer has such an awful reputation because it's so slow, and its advantages are minor when late-era tanks are on the field.

- Gus

[Dave Markell]

Yeah, the Hetzer gets my vote as the worst vehicle in the entire game. I couldn't move, I couldn't take a hit, and I couldn't hurt the vast majority of the enemies I was forced to fight. I was thrilled to get out of it and into a Stug.

[PapaSmurf]

Give it some thought, Dave. How long did you spend in that Pz3 or A20? Two hours? Three? Four? And then you were onto the next tank. Meanwhile that Pz3 and A20 provided valuable harassment and scouting services.

I kept an A-20 for a long time just to enjoy the ability of rushing in, scouting, and causing chaos (hopefully delaying enemy deployment as they focused on me), until I sprung for a Leopard. It's a much more fun role than sitting in a bush in my T-44 and waiting for something worth shooting at with the 122mm (or even worth revealing myself over, if I'm using the 100mm).

I don't disagree that there will be benefits to tiered battles but I fully expect to miss the current setup.

[Dave Markell]

Give it some thought, Dave.

Already gave it plenty of thought while suffering through the low tiers, Mr. Condescension, and I came to the conclusion that the game needed tiered battles well before the devs announced that the game needed tiered battles.

[PapaSmurf]

Whoah take it easy. Who's being condescending?

[Dave Markell]

You're the one who's saying my position would change if I just gave it some thought, so I think that question answers itself.

[Marcin]

Give it some thought, Dave. How long did you spend in that Pz3 or A20? Two hours? Three? Four?

Um. 3 weeks. Anymore questions?

Bring on the tiered battles!

[PapaSmurf]

You're the one who's saying my position would change if I just gave it some thought, so I think that question answers itself.

Wow. Well, if you want to be condescended upon by one off-hand phrase, by all means, make yourself happy. I sure as heck didn't mean to be condescending, more trying to engage you to imagine a game without cheap scouting. Like I said though, you can feel as insulted as you like.

[PapaSmurf]

Um. 3 weeks. Anymore questions?

LOL how did you manage to spend 3 weeks in a tier 3 tank?

[Dave Markell]

I think my time played on the Hetzer was at least 20 hours, maybe more. I was the weakest/most useless vehicle in almost every battle. It was literally impossible to get scouting XP, and since I couldn't hurt most enemies before they one-shotted me, it was very difficult to get combat XP. On the Profile tab, my damage ratio with the Hetzer was 20%. That's fine for a scout tank, but a nightmare for a tank destroyer.

[PapaSmurf]

As I've said several times, the Hetzer is an especially bad tank and I can see more solutions to it than forcing tiers on everyone.

[Dave Markell]

As I've said several times, the Hetzer is an especially bad tank and I can see more solutions to it than forcing tiers on everyone.

But it performs fine against vehicles in its +1/-1 tier range, as do all the other vehicles that generate the most complaints. Tiered battles solve these problems instantly. The only problems they generate are 1) tweaking the credit system so that premium accounts with high tier tanks can profit, which won't be hard and 2) angering folks who enjoy romping around in tier 8+ tanks killing the low tier folks with impunity, which I don't care about.

[Marcin]

LOL how did you manage to spend 3 weeks in a tier 3 tank?

13,000 XP where everyone is sporting IS-es and Tigers is pretty hard to come by. It's probably 70-200xp per what, 10 minute session? And I have an hour to play per day, IF that.

But it performs fine against vehicles in its +1/-1 tier range

Bingo. This is about making everything viable and fun, and not a waste of the players' time. I'm not even sure why we're arguing this.

[Jarrodhk]

Tiered battles will help avoid driving new players away in droves, if they work correctly. The way it works currently, you go from having gotten a lot of experience and fun playing against a limited set of opponents in the same range of tanks, to playing against things that kill you the instant they see you. Over, and over, and over.

Most people (IE not the majority of people on QT3, especially those interested in tanks and the beta test) will not stay around for that kind of beat down. They will play a day or two, get into Tier 3 and walk away from the game forever. Money out the window.

Now one thing that mitigates against this, and the thing that I am most looking forward to (along with maps) is squads. Allow me to join the game with friends and even if I'm losing, I am far more likely to have fun, and stick around.

[TheWombat]

13,000 XP where everyone is sporting IS-es and Tigers is pretty hard to come by. It's probably 70-200xp per what, 10 minute session? And I have an hour to play per day, IF that.

I'm in your boat. Hell, I still have an A-20 as my best tank. I do have an SU-85/85 I use for actually killing things (occasionally) but when they took the servers down the other day I was still quite a ways short of the T-34. Admittedly, I did not take an optimum path in terms of experience, and I haven't played a super amount. But I think if you're not laser focused on playing WoT and just WoT, a lot of folks will have similar experiences, especially if you want to taste the different flavors rather than drive pell-mell for Tier V or VI.

[PapaSmurf]

But it performs fine against vehicles in its +1/-1 tier range, as do all the other vehicles that generate the most complaints. Tiered battles solve these problems instantly. The only problems they generate are 1) tweaking the credit system so that premium accounts with high tier tanks can profit, which won't be hard and 2) angering folks who enjoy romping around in tier 8+ tanks killing the low tier folks with impunity, which I don't care about.

I think you're not looking at all the potential issues that spring up with a tiered system:

1. Twinking.
2. Lack of variety.
3. Balance issues (you think a Hetzer is bad? Try a Tiger vs T-43, T-44, IS, IS-3, 3002DB, Panther, and King Tiger! That'll be tier 7-8, and each tier has its own gimp tank!) Or the reverse; try countering a VK3601 in tier 5-6.
4. Unfulfilled roles. Who scouts in 9-10? Or are 7-10 on tier, in which case, the T-43 is horrible.

[Kalle]

I think you're not looking at all the potential issues that spring up with a tiered system:

1. Twinking.
2. Lack of variety.
3. Balance issues (you think a Hetzer is bad? Try a Tiger vs T-43, T-44, IS, IS-3, 3002DB, Panther, and King Tiger! That'll be tier 7-8, and each tier has its own gimp tank!) Or the reverse; try countering a VK3601 in tier 5-6.
4. Unfulfilled roles. Who scouts in 9-10? Or are 7-10 on tier, in which case, the T-43 is horrible.

I couldn't agree more.

I quite like the current system, warts and all, because there is a good variety of tank types and targets. If I'm driving my PzIII and I see a Panther then yes, I'm fucked. So I do my best to avoid Panthers and look for other tanks my size, or artillery. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

What I'd like to see is historical setups. That would provide more variety than just tiering.

[Dave Markell]

To address your points in turn:

1. Twinking.

Don't care. If someone rich enough to drive an IS7 wants to buy a maxed out PZII to fight in the low tiers, it doesn't bother me at all. If they want to gift credits or gold to their friends, something the devs have said will probably be possible, I also don't care.

2. Lack of variety.

Don't care. I'd much rather have fun playing the game against appropriate opponents than enjoy the supposed "variety" provided by a King Tiger blowing away my tier 3.

3. Balance issues (you think a Hetzer is bad? Try a Tiger vs T-43, T-44, IS, IS-3, 3002DB, Panther, and King Tiger! That'll be tier 7-8, and each tier has its own gimp tank!) Or the reverse; try countering a VK3601 in tier 5-6.

Don't care. All games have balance issues that are addressed over time (or aren't, and they fail). A Tiger vs. the stuff you listed fares a hell of a lot better than a HETZER vs. the stuff you listed, which is what happens now. If you really cared about balance, you'd be pushing for tiered battles. Everyone else who does is.

4. Unfulfilled roles. Who scouts in 9-10? Or are 7-10 on tier, in which case, the T-43 is horrible.

This issue is the only one that matters, since there are no high tier scouts. However, in the high tiers, mediums can fill that role fairly well, since they are far faster than their heavy counterparts.

[PapaSmurf]

OK, so since your response is basically "don't care", then I guess we don't have much to discuss. :)

[Dave Markell]

Yeah, probably :-). You like it the way it is, I like the idea of changing it, and we both have what we think are good reasons for our positions. I don't see where else this discussion can go until the devs reveal more details about the battle tiers.