Thread: Whedon To Direct Avengers - April Fool's??

  1. #661
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    Well, that, or maybe Avengers is just a fantastic popcorn flick and nothing more (or less).

    I'm not saying Watchmen is all that profound or a contender for best movie ever - I just think it was deeper and more interesting as something to think about after the experience is over.

    Everything I've seen from Whedon has been superficial and about snappy dialogue above all else. This includes Firefly (which I happen to really love) - but there's no reason to pretend it's something more than it is.

    Well, I don't think there's a good reason for that.

    Oh, and I like Batman Begins mostly because of the craftsmanship - and I don't think it's dark or depressing. It's surprisingly mature given the material, though - and I think it has some great scenes in it (like the hallucination stuff with the horse and what not).

    I don't think much of Dark Knight, however.

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKDArtagnan View Post
    Well, that, or maybe Avengers is just a fantastic popcorn flick and nothing more (or less).

    I'm not saying Watchmen is all that profound or a contender for best movie ever - I just think it was deeper and more interesting as something to think about after the experience is over.

    Everything I've seen from Whedon has been superficial and about snappy dialogue above all else. This includes Firefly (which I happen to really love) - but there's no reason to pretend it's something more than it is.

    Well, I don't think there's a good reason for that.

    Oh, and I like Batman Begins mostly because of the craftsmanship - and I don't think it's dark or depressing. It's surprisingly mature given the material, though - and I think it has some great scenes in it (like the hallucination stuff with the horse and what not).

    I don't think much of Dark Knight, however.
    I think you're sort of glossing over my points a bit, but as my point is the depth is basically whatever you make it and apparently that's your point too, I guess whatever.

    I disagree with the opinion that Firefly is shallow, it's all relative though, it's much deeper and more human to me than similar shows like Farscape but it's extremely shallow compared with something like The Wire. At the end of the day just because someone is witty doesn't mean they aren't interesting on other levels. I would like to know what it is your comparing Avengers to that makes it as shallow as a puddle, and you can't say Batman now (well, actually you could if you wanted to)!

    I'm judging it by it's limitations as a 12A rated (BB and DK were both 12A but DK caused controversy over it's rating), huge budget, super-hero movie and for that sort of thing I think it shows a lot of depth considering how much breadth it has to show off.

  3. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurugeorge View Post
    Spoiler: Here be spoilers!
    Agent Coulson dying
    Man, I sorta feel like Charlie Brown...

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    Just an added, and more general comment on profundity and the superhero mythos. There's always been a bit of tension there: on the one hand, part of the joy of it was these writers (whose alter egos probably wanted to write the Great American Novel) letting their imaginations run away with them in a medium where it didn't matter, where they didn't have to be, or even try to be profound. Yet, inadvertently, they created a mythos that actually is profound. I mean right down to its roots, the profoundest aspect of it speaks right to the heart of the human situation. The other pole of the tension is: "what if superpowers were real?"

    As human beings, we are all about power, and we are growing in power all the time, so the question of what we do with all that power becomes more and more relevant. And in a way, the whole superhero mythos is a sketching out of the possibilities in that context, just like the superhero genre's older cousin, s-f. One day we will have access to what amount to superpowers. So what do we do with them? The question is already relevant wrt to the "powers" we have today, which would appear like magic to our predecessors.

    And that question of course leads to the philosophical problems around morality.

    So yeah, even an entertainment like the Avengers has something of that element in it, and is therefore by default at least a bit profound. Even kids know (and are innocent enough to acknowledge) that the exercise of power is inherently glorious - but its value depends on context.

  5. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKDArtagnan View Post
    Well, that, or maybe Avengers is just a fantastic popcorn flick and nothing more (or less).

    I'm not saying Watchmen is all that profound or a contender for best movie ever - I just think it was deeper and more interesting as something to think about after the experience is over.
    Indiana Jones was just a popcorn flick as well, but it's still memorable.

    Personally, I more likely to dwell on moments like Loki's confrontations with Hulk or Scarlet Widow in Avengers than anything in the Watchmen movie, because The Avengers just works better.

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rory Stewart View Post
    I think you're sort of glossing over my points a bit, but as my point is the depth is basically whatever you make it and apparently that's your point too, I guess whatever.

    I disagree with the opinion that Firefly is shallow, it's all relative though, it's much deeper and more human to me than similar shows like Farscape but it's extremely shallow compared with something like The Wire. At the end of the day just because someone is witty doesn't mean they aren't interesting on other levels. I would like to know what it is your comparing Avengers to that makes it as shallow as a puddle, and you can't say Batman now (well, actually you could if you wanted to)!

    I'm judging it by it's limitations as a 12A rated (BB and DK were both 12A but DK caused controversy over it's rating), huge budget, super-hero movie and for that sort of thing I think it shows a lot of depth considering how much breadth it has to show off.
    I'm not suggesting that Firefly or Avengers are objectively shallow. If you think they're deep - then they're deep for you.

    Oh, and I think Firefly had some interesting characters and situations - but ultimately I think they were too implausible and (for me) obviously created from wanting to create a reaction, rather than wanting to make real people that do real things. I happen to react a lot more to something I can believe in or relate to - even within a super/action hero context.

    I can't really do that with Whedon material.

    As with all these things, it comes down to personal preference and experience.

    I think Whedon makes shallow material - but it's nothing but my opinion. I have zero interest in WHY it's shallow (rating, intention, etc.) - because the end-result is the end-result - and that's all I'm talking about.

    I think it's possible that Whedon isn't after "depth" or "plausibility" - and as such, he's not doing anything wrong at all. I'm simply not his most obvious target audience.

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sören Höglund View Post
    Indiana Jones was just a popcorn flick as well, but it's still memorable.

    Personally, I more likely to dwell on moments like Loki's confrontations with Hulk or Scarlet Widow in Avengers than anything in the Watchmen movie, because The Avengers just works better.
    To each his own :)

    I wouldn't say that Avengers is forgettable, though. In fact, I think it will be memorable to me because it's incredibly entertaining - which is a rare thing for me to experience with the kind of film it is. I'm usually bored after the first couple of explosions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by some asshole on RT
    "If you're not much of a Marvel Comics person but just want to get an early start on your mindless summer moviegoing, well, I guess this picture is no stupider than anything else."
    This really vexed me. I'm vexed.

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    Whedon has a knack for elevating material. Not necessarily making it all profound, but at least leaving it better than had he not dealt with it. He also has a very good track record of getting shitty actors to give good to fantastic performances, which is probably his best attribute.

    Other than that, I mean, he's not the most amazing visual director or best storyteller or anything like that. But what he's good at, boy is he good at.

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    I just noticed your name and laughed out loud. Well played.

  11. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by asspennies View Post
    Whedon has a knack for elevating material. Not necessarily making it all profound, but at least leaving it better than had he not dealt with it. He also has a very good track record of getting shitty actors to give good to fantastic performances, which is probably his best attribute.

    Other than that, I mean, he's not the most amazing visual director or best storyteller or anything like that. But what he's good at, boy is he good at.
    Did you see what he did to the Aliens universe? :)

    Ok, that french frog had something to do with it as well...

  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKDArtagnan View Post
    I'm not suggesting that Firefly or Avengers are objectively shallow. If you think they're deep - then they're deep for you.

    Oh, and I think Firefly had some interesting characters and situations - but ultimately I think they were too implausible and (for me) obviously created from wanting to create a reaction, rather than wanting to make real people that do real things. I happen to react a lot more to something I can believe in or relate to - even within a super/action hero context.

    I can't really do that with Whedon material.

    As with all these things, it comes down to personal preference and experience.

    I think Whedon makes shallow material - but it's nothing but my opinion. I have zero interest in WHY it's shallow (rating, intention, etc.) - because the end-result is the end-result - and that's all I'm talking about.

    I think it's possible that Whedon isn't after "depth" or "plausibility" - and as such, he's not doing anything wrong at all. I'm simply not his most obvious target audience.
    I think discussing the depth of Whedon's material based on Firefly, a half season of a show heavily meddled with by the network and then canceled, is kind of pointless. Given the sort of long form serialized storytelling Whedon does, we don't really have much sense of what Firefly was going to be, or was meant to be, or who the characters were, or the long term themes to explore.

    I'm not saying "Waah, you can't judge it Maaaan!" I'm just saying, I see little point in trying because the show never really got to go anywhere before it was canceled.

    Any meaningful examination of Whedon should really focus on Buffy. It's his longest show, his most successful show, the show that made the biggest impact on pop culture, etc etc.

    It's also a show that I:
    1. love and
    2. Think had significant periods, perhaps nearly entire seasons, that sucked.

    On the other hand, I feel that say, The Body is one of the greatest examinations of death and the impact of death on survivors and loved ones, in the history of the television medium, and this on a show where people died cartoonish deaths on a weekly basis. In terms of talking about life in high school, or life as an outsider, or what it's like to be a girl in a misogynist culture, or any number of other things, I think the show has plenty of depth. Enough (in literal fact) to support books, essays, college classes, etc.


    But again, I'm not actually trying to say "Waaah, you're not watching the good one!". I'm just saying, if the topic is "What is the depth/worth/meaning of Joss Whedon's work?", and if you want the discussion to be serious or come to any kind of useful conclusion, you've got to know Buffy.

    (I'd also argue you have to know Dollhouse, which gets into some very interesting issues regardless of the fact that as a show it was a failure).

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKDArtagnan View Post
    Did you see what he did to the Aliens universe? :)

    Ok, that french frog had something to do with it as well...

    Hmm, I watched that recently (well about an hour of it). I don't know quite what to make of it. It's terrible for the most part, but why?

    I mean there's the usual Whedon formula here. An empowered, badass chick who is socially awkward and a rag tag team of scallywags. I think it comes down to a mismatch between Whedon's idea of how that dynamic would work (see firefly) and Jean-pierre Jeunet's (see delicatessen). Hence I think there are lines and scenes which come off as being tone deaf.

    On the other hand, there's some really terrible performances and also to the actors credit just some terribly written lines ("Who do I have to fuck to get off this boat? ").

    Or maybe it was just bad casting, i.e. Winona Ryder is awful - "He is breeding an alien species that makes the plague look like a fucking square dance". That's not a bad line but she fumbles it and lines like it again and again.

  14. #674
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    But again, I'm not actually trying to say "Waaah, you're not watching the good one!". I'm just saying, if the topic is "What is the depth/worth/meaning of Joss Whedon's work?", and if you want the discussion to be serious or come to any kind of useful conclusion, you've got to know Buffy.
    I don't even want a discussion. I'm just trying to clarify my position :)

    As for Buffy, I know all I can stand knowing about it. Unfortunately, the entire concept goes against my idea of an interesting or deep approach to plausible storytelling. When I'm literally feeling slight nausea just thinking about watching a full episode - it's probably just not for me.

    Which is why I should have said "all of Whedon's work that I've seen" - and I apologize if he's made something that wasn't primarily about snappy dialogue and implausible characters doing implausible things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugin View Post

    Any meaningful examination of Whedon should really focus on Buffy. It's his longest show, his most successful show, the show that made the biggest impact on pop culture, etc etc.

    It's also a show that I:
    1. love and
    2. Think had significant periods, perhaps nearly entire seasons, that sucked.
    I'm not allowed to talk about Buffy because season 4 is one of my favourites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houngan View Post
    I'm thinking about breaking my umpty-year embargo of movie theaters to see this, let me ask you: how prevalent is cellphone usage these days? All the time, rarely, in between? I just want to go and get lost in the movie without being aware that other people are around me, I'm assuming that's even more impossible now that everyone carries a personal video camera.
    We recently had a Cinebistro open up nearby and I really like seeing films there. The projection is handled quite well, the seating is ample - seats are the size of first class rather than coach - and it's 21 and up and they serve alcohol and food. They actually card people at the door - no teens!

    Also, advanced ticketing with reserve seating.

    I pretty much go there for every movie that I can go there for.

  17. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reldan View Post
    We recently had a Cinebistro open up nearby and I really like seeing films there. The projection is handled quite well, the seating is ample - seats are the size of first class rather than coach - and it's 21 and up and they serve alcohol and food. They actually card people at the door - no teens!

    Also, advanced ticketing with reserve seating.

    I pretty much go there for every movie that I can go there for.
    I fantasize about the day normal theaters in the US convert to assigned seating. The infrastructure for it can't be expensive at this point. It'll never happen though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rory Stewart View Post
    I'm not allowed to talk about Buffy because season 4 is one of my favourites.
    It had some really, truly, genuinely great episodes.

    But man, the whole Adam/Initiative/Riley angle was badly done. The first half is going so well, but from the minute we see Adam, it's all downhill from there.

    IMO, natch.

    But I'll agree that trying to discuss the "depth" of Joss's work without knowing Buffy pretty well is unfair. Yes, it has snappy dialogue, and maybe "implausible characters," but as a social commentary and a piece with "depth," it has a lot to say.

  19. #679
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    I just saw this.

    Hulk rocks! No, seriously - Hulk..ROCKS! puny xxx indeed....

    Anyways, Robin Scherbatsky?? Really? A worse, wooden, fake, horrible actor I cannot imagine in a thousand years. What a horrible casting error.

    Iron man was fun, and the other guys were fine as well.

    Loki didn't shine nearly as much as in Thor unfortunately, which is a shame, since I found him to be a terrific villain in that movie.

    Anyways - it was okay, but not as awesome as I expected I'm afraid - It was a bit too convenient and easy all the way through and we kinda new pretty much everything that was going to happen..

    well, except for Hulk - Hulk Rocks!

  20. #680
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    It's a bit ironic that this one was by far the best Hulk movie.

  21. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razgon View Post
    Anyways, Robin Scherbatsky?? Really? A worse, wooden, fake, horrible actor I cannot imagine in a thousand years. What a horrible casting error.
    I had to look up the name, was she really a big enough character to worry about casting, is she someone important in the comics?

    I saw it again today (my friend hadn't seen it and it was Orange Wednesday) I still really enjoyed it, though I think the hype will hurt it critically/on the internet. It was still a lot of fun but it loses a bit of impact the second time round, I didn't feel like I discovered a lot more in the performances apart from, weirdly, Tony Stark. I think he became way interesting, the lines he says as mumbled throwaways actually added dimensions to his character I didn't notice.

  22. #682
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    Iron Butt Achievement Unlocked ... 14 hours in a theater for the 6 movie marathon deal. I had many 2nd thoughts about what I was getting myself into, but seeing all the movies in a row was actually far more tolerable than I expected.

  23. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Meister View Post
    Iron Butt Achievement Unlocked
    I assumed this was going to be about Black Widow's ass being thrust upon us in every frame.

  24. #684
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    I'm happy to say—as others have—none of my fears about Whedon were founded. I had an awesome time.

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    I'm sure the "meh, it was okaaaay" brigade will be here soon enough to throw a wet blanket over everything, but for my money Avengers is a near perfect film, and can only be compared to, say, Raiders of the Lost Ark and Aliens to properly convey how damn well crafted it is. Not a single wrong move in the entire thing. It's the movie Whedon was born to direct.

    The only real issue is how you follow this. No pressure, Thor 2.

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    I am so incredibly happy for Whedon. I love his works for a decade, now finally he will get all the recognition he deserves.

    Cannot wait to see this. Only 6 more days.

  27. #687
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    Matt, during this first viewing I thought the first 20 minutes or so was a little bit untidy and could possibly be reworked. I say that, even though I though the same thing about the middle part of Iron Man 2 when Fury showed up. Seeing Iron Man 2 within the marathon, that part didn't seem so completely tacked on to the rest of the film, so my tastes likely need recalibrated.

    The rest of the film, was great.

  28. #688
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    Great movie. The villian was weak (which in unfortunate because Loki was my favorite part of the Thor movie) but Iron Man and the Hulk were awesome. Nick Fury was pretty good too and I'm so glad they caught some of the complexity of his character in the movie.

    I would have loved to have seen a deeper Avengers movie about the bond between the characters, trust, faith and loyalty. But that isn't this movie. This is about seeing your favorite heroes come together and kick some butt in true summer action blockbuster fashion. And it accomplishes that goal perfectly.

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    Caught myself in a 3D theater gripping the arm rest, realized I was doing it, thought at first I was silly, and then realized that I was doing a little too much self examination and SHIT BALLS HULK and SCARLETT'S ASS and FIGHT SCENES and

    ....2.5 hours later, best roller coaster ride in recent memory.

  30. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kael View Post
    The villian was weak (which in unfortunate because Loki was my favorite part of the Thor movie)
    Girl, u crazy!

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