Civilization V

[HumanTon]

I have no objection to giant swathes of desert or tundra going unsettled -- it's the unclaimed forest that's jarring.

I think the larger map sizes need some adjustment to the game mechanics to make them feel appropriately populated (just increasing the number of civs/city states isn't a good option to fill in the gaps, given the extremely long turn times.)

I do also get the feeling when trying to play a large (6+ city) empire that there's always someone over my shoulder saying, "Well, you could do it that way, but I'm not sure it's wise. Wouldn't it be much nicer to have fewer cities?" Which frankly I find annoying in a 4X game.

[Chris Nahr]

Well, when the game core SDK is released you can take a look and let me know where I added these bonuses on accident. ;)

I'll be sure to take a look (just out of curiosity!) but I'm going to believe you anyway, thanks for the explanation. :)

I'm glad that you could make the AI work for the new system without significant cheating, after all. Sadly, your description also explains why the AI increasingly seems to lag behind come the Middle Ages or so, and never seems to pursue any victory condition other than conquest -- how could it, when it's always broke and builds basically nothing but units and happiness buildings in lots of tiny unproductive cities? Ah well, I'm looking forward to the upcoming AI patches!

[Hans Lauring]

I have no objection to giant swathes of desert or tundra going unsettled -- it's the unclaimed forest that's jarring.

I think the larger map sizes need some adjustment to the game mechanics to make them feel appropriately populated (just increasing the number of civs/city states isn't a good option to fill in the gaps, given the extremely long turn times.)

I do also get the feeling when trying to play a large (6+ city) empire that there's always someone over my shoulder saying, "Well, you could do it that way, but I'm not sure it's wise. Wouldn't it be much nicer to have fewer cities?" Which frankly I find annoying in a 4X game.

Agree.
In my current game on a large map, everybody hates me out of principle - probably because I'm most likely to achieve one of the victory conditions and this is a game. Looking at the world realistically, there's no need for tension - there's lots of luxuries and strategic resources still unclaimed...
It's jarring. And I like the big long games, but I haven't gone beyond large maps and normal number of turns here (IV would be Huge and Epic).

[KevinC]

I have no objection to giant swathes of desert or tundra going unsettled -- it's the unclaimed forest that's jarring.

I think the larger map sizes need some adjustment to the game mechanics to make them feel appropriately populated (just increasing the number of civs/city states isn't a good option to fill in the gaps, given the extremely long turn times.)

I do also get the feeling when trying to play a large (6+ city) empire that there's always someone over my shoulder saying, "Well, you could do it that way, but I'm not sure it's wise. Wouldn't it be much nicer to have fewer cities?" Which frankly I find annoying in a 4X game.

Thanks for saying things better than I could, I feel the same way (on all points).

[Remconius]

@Jon Shafer, thank you for civ V. Is sure is a fun game!

And thanks for posting on this forum to giving us an update. It's good to see you are working on the interface, diplomacy and AI. Those are very welcome.

What I would like to know is if you are also working on the balance?
Most notibly:
-Long buildings times for what you get, especially compared to research. Research flies by, but the most simple buildings take forever.
-Overpowered maritime City States.
-Weak food resources, which are no better than regular farms.
-luxury resources which are not scaling on larger maps. 15x5 happiness is a lot an a small map, but little on a huge map.

At the moment the empire building aspect (many, well developed cities) is a bit missing. This really should be part of building a civilization to stand the test of time!

Thanks in advance for a response!

[Equisilus]

I played on a huge map with two large continents and it had the most wild time of battles and cities everywhere. By the end, there were only four civs left (it was a time-out loss for me, coming in second in points on Prince; the winner was Arabia who had conquered the entire other continent and all city states over there). Too, there might have been only a few tiles left outside any borders, mostly snow areas and spots with no resources.

I suppose I'm surprised that people are finding so much of the world left outside a border, even on huge maps. I would like it to be the other way around, but the AI seems to be a land grabber if I don't block their expansion.

[Lizard_King]

-Long buildings times for what you get, especially compared to research. Research flies by, but the most simple buildings take forever.

FWIW, both of the primary economy mods (Economy Mod and Balance Economy Mod) address this very nicely, by accelerating construction and other aspects and slowly science. That means in Epic and Marathon games you get to really enjoy the various eras of technology instead of just racing to mechanized infantry.

-Weak food resources, which are no better than regular farms.

To some extent, this has also been dealt with in the economy mods, to the point where Fish and wheat on a river become fairly useful. I still think food is underemphasized in the game relative to luxury resources, but then I feel that way about strategic resources getting the shaft as well.

-luxury resources which are not scaling on larger maps. 15x5 happiness is a lot an a small map, but little on a huge map.

I think luxury scales a lot better than culture, since happiness requirements don't really increase at the same accelerated pace. Culture pretty much requires relatively few real cities and either ignoring expansion or puppeting entire empires in order to keep it in check, and even then it's best to build the wonders that cut its costs quickly and target those social policies. Happiness, on the other hand, can really be tilted significantly by a single theater or wonder even in the late game on huge maps (as the difference between -14 and -9 is substantial, to say the least).

Overall, though, I'd say luxuries are overpowered relative to other resources. It's ridiculous that I'm better off in a military sense (since money is the fastest way to get powerful) starting with cotton and marble than iron and coal, even in an industrial age game.

[Tim Partlett]

In my current game on a large map, everybody hates me out of principle - probably because I'm most likely to achieve one of the victory conditions and this is a game. Looking at the world realistically, there's no need for tension - there's lots of luxuries and strategic resources still unclaimed...

Looking at the world realistically, isn't it also jarring for you that civilizations in the game compete to be the sole "winner". Because if you accept that as reasonable, then you also have to accept that they are going to try to stop you winning, even if that behaviour doesn't reflect the real world.

I guess it's because Civilization isn't a simulation of the real world, it just abstracts some elements of it to make for a game where several players compete to win.

[Blackadar]

What I would like to know is if you are also working on the balance?
Most notibly:
-Long buildings times for what you get, especially compared to research. Research flies by, but the most simple buildings take forever.

By the end of the game with railroads hooked up, you can produce things quite quickly. Perhaps bringing down the bast cost for most buildings by 10% or so would work, but I think anything faster would be too fast during the endgame.

-Overpowered maritime City States.

Yeah, this should be tweaked.

Weak food resources, which are no better than regular farms.

Agree this should be tweaked at some point so that sheep and similar resources can give a +2 in food.

-luxury resources which are not scaling on larger maps. 15x5 happiness is a lot an a small map, but little on a huge map.

At the moment the empire building aspect (many, well developed cities) is a bit missing. This really should be part of building a civilization to stand the test of time!

It's still possible to have many well-developed cities. I've done it a number of times, though it takes smart planning and a bit of luck to get a diverse enough selection of luxury resources.

I think one of the main things they could do for both happiness and empire size is to increase the happiness you get from buildings. Rather than adjust resources, pump up the happiness you get from buildings (ex. adding happiness to temples) at the same time increasing the monthly cost of those buildings. That way, they can suck out excess gold out of the game all the while reducing how much happiness limits empire size.

[istry555]

Also included will be a number of AI upgrades.

Hi, does this include addressing the problems with using AI players in mutli-player games?

Currently if any slot is run by AI in MP, that AI player never contacts you or any other human player. (I've never had them ask for a trade or secrecy/corporation pact which happens every few turns in SP). And the AI just seems to perform weaker than in SP. (In SP games I'm always mid level in terms of points, but same settings MP game with just AI I'm always on the top of points with almost double the highest AI). Judging by posts at civfanatics and the 2K forums, I am not the only one experiencing this. Also, once you fix the contact problem, the option to have animated AI leaderheads in MP would be nice, but not required.

I know fixing AI slots in MP may not seem like a priority to many, but I almost play exclusively MP games with my friends vs a bunch of AI and I'm sure a lot of players do this as well. Not to mention sometimes a friend has to leave or drops, or you simply can't find enough human players for all the slots and you have to use an AI.

Besides that, thanks for the great game and glad to hear you are busy working to improve it.

[KevinC]

Speaking of AI in MP, why is it that the game squawks if you have 8 AI in a huge map in MP, yet defaults to 12 in SP?

[Quitch]

This is going to seem really fussy, but I'd like Prince to be made a "fair" AI level. IMO, there should always be one AI level where the playing field is level.

[Alan Dunkin]

Hmm, I haven't had a chance to play in awhile and last night tried out DX 10/11 version after upgrading my system a bit (moving to a GTS 450 and 4GB of RAM), then turning up the graphic options, seems to work fairly well now. Am definitely not afraid to use it anymore.

The loading-while-intro delay/skip thing still bugs me though...

--- Alan

[Quitch]

Well, it'd be nice if it told you what it was doing, but it beats sitting on a loading screen.

[darkurthe]

Hey guys. Just a quick update. Sorry for the recent absence, I've been traveling quite a bit lately.

There are several things which we are looking at improving with Civ 5. Most of my time since getting back has been spent working on the interface, particularly with making more information accessible. These changes will go out with the next big update in a few weeks. The plan is also to make major revisions to the diplomacy system, and while I can't talk about the details yet, I think you all will find them an improvement. That will be added with an update later this year. Also included will be a number of AI upgrades.

Thanks to all who have purchased the game - the plan is definitely to continue improving the experience for everyone playing. The game isn't perfect, but we feel good about the foundation laid so far, and expect Civ 5 will stand up with every other game out there and continue to get better over time. I can ensure that I'll be working on Civ 5 as long as I'm able to.

Jon

Thanks for the update, the save games files are still disgustingly huge and crash the game upon a reload... which is less than fun.

[dexters]

Hiya Jon,

We're overjoyed over at the civfanatics forum to finally hear from you post launch and to get some details on what is to come in the 1st patch. But also saddened this wasn't communicated to anyone in the 'rabid' fan community. Actually there's been zero official presence at CFC since release, at least outside the tech help forum.

You touched on diplomacy,happiness,AI bonuses/cheating on your previous posts. I'd like to clarify on a few points.

Will:
- Puppet State AI be fixed so they don't build the whole military line /defensive buildings which become a serious drain on our treasury ?
- Deficits appear to be common in this game, even with successful empires. As you touched on extensively, AIs get no special bonuses here at prince. But implied they get help with puppets and maintenance at higher difficulty.
Will you or your team revisit the gold/commerce issue. Because human players also need help. It appears the commercial line of buildings and the commercial policy path is way underpowered in this game.
I recently had an island start on King difficulty, so every city on my island continent were mine. I eschewed military buildings save for 2 military cities and avoided defensive buildings entirely (walls/castles) and did not build stables. And yet by the modern era, I ran into deficits. I exited one golden age with -140 gpt.

I did have about 9 military units and 9 workers. which I quickly disbanded as much as I could. But that only closed the gap. I did not enjoy the +30-70 gpt I had been enjoying for most of the first 3rd of the game again. The late game feels like its about running out the clock before your treasury runs out, and popping golden ages. I don't like that. It doesn't feel like a sustainable empire to me. It feels like (for their cost) Stock exchanges needs a boost and maybe there needs to be a modern era boost to trading posts. This avoids adding buildings to an already taxed production game
One observation I have is that the game seems to discourage players from building 'everything' helpful to them which is usually the science/culture brand plus a windmill/factory and granaries/watermill. This doesn't make sense as most players would still want to build up the science/culture branches (can't have too much of science or culture)

Lastly, one of the most common complaints with the AI is that it doesn't know how to handle its ranged units properly. This is most obvious with city states, which likes to build 1 ranged 1 defensive units. In times of war, they parade their ranged units out into the field (when the enemy is closing in-- so its not like they are moving out to attack) where they are usually killed off. And it doesn't even require a human player to do this. A city state defending against and AI attack will do the same thing, with the same result. Ranged unit die within the opening moves, and their defensive capability drop. I assume the same AI algorithm applies to the ranged units being controlled by the non-city state players as well.

[Strato]

The loading thing did annoy me at first, not so much because of the load time, but rather because it was that same video which was hiding whatever was happening in the background. Purely psychological of course.

However, if the April Fools joke for Civ V made it as a ad hoc loading screen, then I would be much happier

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/04/01/ap...eme-diplomacy/

A man can dream... to sleep I go!

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Hey guys. Just a quick update. Sorry for the recent absence, I've been traveling quite a bit lately.

There are several things which we are looking at improving with Civ 5. Most of my time since getting back has been spent working on the interface, particularly with making more information accessible. These changes will go out with the next big update in a few weeks. The plan is also to make major revisions to the diplomacy system, and while I can't talk about the details yet, I think you all will find them an improvement. That will be added with an update later this year. Also included will be a number of AI upgrades.

Thanks to all who have purchased the game - the plan is definitely to continue improving the experience for everyone playing. The game isn't perfect, but we feel good about the foundation laid so far, and expect Civ 5 will stand up with every other game out there and continue to get better over time. I can ensure that I'll be working on Civ 5 as long as I'm able to.

Jon

I hope you are working on the load times!

Enjoying the game....

[DeepT]

I would actual like Food to be a global resource. Take Rome for example. This city was famous for its demands upon the empire for food. There are many examples of this in history.

[JMR]

However, if the April Fools joke for Civ V made it as a ad hoc loading screen, then I would be much happier

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/04/01/ap...eme-diplomacy/

A man can dream... to sleep I go!

Bwahahahah I love it!

[razarok]

I would actual like Food to be a global resource. Take Rome for example. This city was famous for its demands upon the empire for food. There are many examples of this in history.

An interesting point. In contrast I would want happiness to be localized.

Yes, that city you just sieged for a few and partially destroyed in the process probably has some unhappy citizens, but why should this affect the rest of my empire?

[Quitch]

Are map sizes weighted when set to random? I seem to always end up on a small map.

[Dan_Theman]

I would actual like Food to be a global resource. Take Rome for example. This city was famous for its demands upon the empire for food. There are many examples of this in history.

An interesting point. In contrast I would want happiness to be localized.

Yes, that city you just sieged for a few and partially destroyed in the process probably has some unhappy citizens, but why should this affect the rest of my empire?

How about these modifications?

• Keep food independent until you build a road between the cities (at which point any connected cities share)
• Keep happiness independent with some global modifers until you get some more advanced technology (such as electricity) for quick communication between cities.

I'm not sure how either of those would wind up working, but at first glance they seem better than the current all-or-none approach being used.

[Mitya]

SMAC had supply carriers, which I never used extensively but came in handy occasionally for boosting up a city temporarily. Rather than connecting with roads and having things automatically click in, I could see something like that being added, though with the option for automation. It would allow for disruption in war, and hijacking the caravans through espionage.

[jfletch]

I read through some of the Civ V thread at NeoGAF and it was startling - it looks like they are firmly on the other side of the "Chick Parabola." Well, I plan to get a new PC next year and hopefully it's fixed up by then.

[Gus_Smedstad]

I still think food is underemphasized in the game relative to luxury resources, but then I feel that way about strategic resources getting the shaft as well.

This is largely a result of the Maritime City States giving such huge empire-wide bonuses. A big food surplus is quite significant in the amount of research you produce. +4 food over what you'd need normally is what gives you two scientists, and two scientists roughly triple the total science output of a smallish city. +4 food is hard to come by until you get Civil Service or you bribe a Maritime City State. Bribe two of them and suddenly every city in your empire can afford those 2 specialists.

If Civil Service worked the way it did in Civ IV, instead of giving you +2 food per farm, and if Maritime City States didn't exist or gave some other bonus, players would be very concerned about food specials.

[anasuelli]

@ Jon

I sent your community manager (2K Greg) a feedback with some bugs. I hope to help you improving this amazing game.

I love this game and I think this 5th episode is the best on the series. Apart from singleplayer, I usually play Civilization's series games with a bunch friends, but we are not going to do it without animations because, honestly, it's horrible to look at.
I have just one question: do I have to resign myself not having multiplayer animations, or there is a possibility that it will be implemented (as an options obviouvsly, as has always been on previous games)?

Bye and I wish you good work.

Post-scriptum: There is a serious translation error on italian language, I detailed for you on the feedback I sent to 2K greg.

[Wolff]

Wow Jon sightings brings the CFs out of the woodwork, look there's another one!

[dexters]

I'm happy to lurk here. Just that we have had 0 info from 2K or anyone post release.

[Strollen]

I'm happy to lurk here. Just that we have had 0 info from 2K or anyone post release.

I think that is because the folks over at Civfanatics, tend to be hum what is the word, perhaps fanatical. Jon and the previous Civ designers (Soren, Brian) are long time members and sometime poster here for a various reasons, but I am guessing that avoiding some of the more nutty fans is probably one of the reasons.

Having said that I don't understand why Elizabeth and 2KGreg have not posted over at CivFanatics, it seems to me that is part of their job.