Arsenal of Democracy (HOI2 on Steroids)

[Kalle]

Ok, you want predictable. This, I can't help you with. Like all Paradox games combat has a random modifier thrown in there. You don't get predictable results in the sense that you can predict a battle just from watching the input values. Sometimes you lose a battle you ought to win. Other times you have a few divisions holding off an army. I've got a general sense of what I need to win but when I'm putting 12 divisions against 8 I can't be certain of victory. I know I have a decent chance, and I know I can't afford to wait for more reinforcements so if I want the province I'll have to take my chances.

It really comes down to tank divisions and organisation. Either you have more tanks than your opponent, in which case you should be able to force a breakthrough and then capitalise on it with encirclements or attacks from multiple fronts, encirclements being the one thing that can remove hundreds of IC's worth of units from play permanently, tilting the odds in your favour. If you don't have more tanks, or if youre unable to force a breakthrough with them, you need to grind down enemy organisation faster than they grind down yours. Soviet doctrine excels at this, but it's a sound strategy for anyone.

But the thing that I sense when I read your complaints is that you're focused on the battles. Me, I don't care about any one battle, they're just the means to an end. I'll fight hundreds of battles in a game, some I'll win, some I'll lose. The details aren't important as long as I can keep ahead of my opponent strategically. If I'm defeated I either need to try again, go around the province, or re-think my overall strategy. How I won or lost is generally not something I take the time to analyse. I just make note of the combat advantages I can get, make the most of them, and hope it works.

[Jason McCullough]

It's not the error bounds on how predictable it is; I just don't know what the hell the midpoint is.

I'll fight hundreds of battles in a game, some I'll win, some I'll lose.

I was thinking about this walking home; I think what I'm unconsciously complaining about is that the HOI2 system really is not designed for evaluating tradeoffs, and as a result its awful to play as anything less than a major power.

As a major power, you don't really have any decisions to make except who to invade. You have a ton of tech slots and very good tech teams, and usually half the tree makes no sense for your nation - USSR naval, for example - so you just max the relevant obvious techs (land doctrine, infantry, a bit of infantry and tac bombers) and build a bunch of shit. Not working? Build more shit. Just keep researching down your chosen subtrees and you'll do fine; there's no real "what do I pick next" choice.

By contrast, if you're not a major power you have 2 tech slots; maybe 3, and your researchers are mediocre at best. You have to make all sorts of decisions the game really does not give you enough feedback on - for example, will the 39->41 infantry upgrade or the air doctrine pay off better? God only knows.

So ok, duh, play the major power and don't worry about microing battles - but again, on the larger point, where's the actual strategic choices in the game, other than target-picking order? Choosing allies? The micro-heavy spying, trade, and diplomacy systems?

[Kalle]

So ok, duh, play the major power and don't worry about microing battles - but again, on the larger point, where's the actual strategic choices in the game, other than target-picking order? Choosing allies? The micro-heavy spying, trade, and diplomacy systems?

What you build, when you build it, and what you research are all interconnected and very much part of the strategy of the game. This goes double if you choose an early game start where you do a pre-war buildup. Research is part of the overall strategy of the game too. As a major, yes, you can research almost everything. But when you're going up against another major they will be able to do the same thing and you can't keep ahead everywhere. If you want those upgraded medium tanks before you invade Russia to get an edge then you have to make sacrifices elsewhere.

Incidentally. I like building armies. :)

The mutually exclusive doctrine trees also make a difference in how you want to fight and that's a choice you commit to at the start of the game.

Other than that, the diplomacy system opens up a few avenues as well. The main use is in securing allies on secondary fronts. Turkey, Afghanistan, and Bulgaria for instance.

But the main strategy in the game is in picking targets. A bit more so if you pick a nation like the UK, the USA or Japan where you need to keep troops on multiple fronts and can't easily shift forces from one theatre to another.

[Jason McCullough]

I tried playing Russia up until 1939 or so....and I don't get it. I have about 16 stacks of 8 infantry, and uh, I guess when Germany invades I'll watch them die. Or try to guess my way to victory. I just really do not get how people are supposed to play this game in the slightest.

[Jason McCullough]

I finally, finally figured out how to play. Sheesh, the

I'm shamelessly cloning Lum's soviet strategy:

16 Fighter '36
36 CAS '36
200 Infantry/Artillery '36
24 Medium Armor '36. It's amazing what a difference these make just defending, much less attacking.

I screwed up my build minmaxing and lost a ton of gearing, or the infantry would be closer to 300. I just barely survive the 1941 initial german assault, losing a couple territories and taking them right back with absolutely enormous casualties.....that don't really matter! I've inflicted absolutely brutal losses on Germany; they're down to 0 manpower as of 2/1942, have a 245 IC reinforcement deficit, 0 supplies, and 0 money. I'm spending 160IC on new production, 50 on reinforcement, and have a 10k surplus in cash and supplies. Muhahahha.

[Cubit]

Paradox just released another expansion for HoI 2. Wha?

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010...ross-released/

[Lum]

It's another third-party project - specifically a for-pay version of the Mod-33 mod.

http://www.strategium-alliance.com/M...on.5120.0.html

I am a bit leery because it's not developed by native English speakers. (Then again, neither was HOI2)

[Lum]

I've inflicted absolutely brutal losses on Germany; they're down to 0 manpower as of 2/1942

This is how you beat Germany in HoI2. All the fantastic leaders and wonder technologies don't matter when they run out of people.

[Kalle]

I am a bit leery because it's not developed by native English speakers. (Then again, neither was HOI2)

Umlauts! Umlauts everywhere!

[Otagan]

Unless they completely rebalanced the way divisions are produced and how combat works, I'm not sure I want to quadruple the number of provinces in the game. Plus, a lot of the messages look rather rough in terms of translation.

[Jason McCullough]

Yeah, the new expansion packs look insane.

I'm having a real strange game with the 1.05 AOD update. I went heavy on medium tanks (~60 as of June 1941), 16 tac, 12 fighters, and about ~200 infantry with the starting motorized and mountain in there. Back in 1939 I guaranteed the independence of Albanian to see if I could pull off the Albanian gambit and save a couple slider moves to standing army. I've got Republican Spain in an alliance and Finland as a puppet.

It's July 1941 and I notice.....Germany doesn't declare war on me. They never declared war on France. None of the usual Italian attacks happened either; the Axis consists of just Germany and Hungary. Apparently nothing has happened since Poland. I'm not sure if the 1.05 AI has a problem, the Albanian thing stopped the first event that sets of the historical chain, or my army is just too damn scary for Germany.

Amusingly, if I declare war on Romania the historical Axis immediately gets created.

[Lum]

There's a small chance that the AI will choose via event not to invite Poland into the Allies. If Germany's threat is close to or lower than the USSR's, the Allies never will declare war on Germany. Makes for a fairly boring game.

[HRose]

I'm very intrigued by this, but how the much larger map can work if the combat system and number of units is the same?

Sounds like a huge design leap.

[Jason McCullough]

Looking at the event file there's a 1% chance the UK won't guarantee the independence of Poland, judging by the log they took it. Funny.

Edit: actually, I don't see any events at all firing in Europe other than molotov-ribbentrop. Strange.

[Lum]

Yeah, if you don't actually get a war in Europe the events die from that point, since they almost all have "war between Germany and the Allies" as a dependency. The world becomes a VERY quiet place.

Playing Cross of Iron now (what the hey, only $10). It *may* be worth $10.

+ tech tree is definitely unique, and more of a "decision tree". Nothing has year gates, and you have techs like "Quality over Quantity" vs "Quantity over Quality" to customize your units. Many techs have a research penalty, I assume this is to slow you from just picking everything.
+ map seems OK. Not sure WW2 really needs Andorra, the Republic of San Marino, and Lichtenstein modelled, but hey. It'll also encourage a lower unit density, all things being equal.
- event support is very hit and miss. As Germany I've had maybe 4 events so far. I'm pretty sure Finland has had more.
- oh god the engrish it hurts. It's really, really bad.

Also - it's literally a mod. It tells you to install into a virgin AoD/HOI2 directory, but installing it into its own subdirectory and shuffling it using JGSME works fine (and I recommend it if, you know, you decide you don't want to play HOI2 with 90,000 provinces)

[Mitya]

hah....hah... :\

Edit: And as Lum points out below, yes, blatantly stolen from SA :)

[Jason McCullough]

I'm using this at work all next week.

The courage push the bravery!

[Lum]

heh. yes, that's the screenshot I took for the SA Paradox thread. It really doesn't get any better, either. I wonder if it's machine translated, actually.

[Jason McCullough]

It's a really odd side effect of the leadership system that defending against Germany seems to be mostly about figuring out which provinces have the most possible attacking provinces and either abanoning them or covering them in infinite troops. Bielsk and Stanislavwow are practically the only ones you need to defend.

Is it just me, or is the intelligence system for anything but setting up the standard alliances and stealing blueprints? I don't have a 1% chance of couping Sinkiang after a couple of years of smear campaigns to increase dissent, and all possible coup increase ministers in my government.

Maybe using it country with lots of war exhaustion changes things? It's just strange.

[Lum]

Coups are always very low chance to succeed. Considering that one successful coup against, say, the US, changes the entire game, that's pretty much working as designed.

[Jason McCullough]

Sure, but they're just as unlikely for the USSR trying to coup a one-province 5 IC nation. Why are they even in the game?

[Mind Elemental]

So is anyone playing the maritime powers (US, UK, Japan, maybe Canada/Aus)? I'm curious how well the naval game is working as at the 1.05 patch.

[Kalle]

Arsenal of Democracy is 60% off at Gamersgate right now, along with HoI2 Complete, in case there's someone reading this thread who hasn't already picked it up.

[Jason McCullough]

I have yet to play a navy-heavy power. Maybe I'll try that after my current Soviet game.

Speaking of, things have gotten odd. The USSR has puppeted Finland and allied with a Left-Wing Radical Republican Spain that crushed the anarchist movement thanks to my help in the civil war. I've got 24 Tactical Bombers, 4 (need 12 by next year) Fighters, ~320 combat divisions stacked on my border, with a goal of 400+ by July 1941, including about 50 tanks. It's August 2nd, 1940, and Germany has just created Vichy.



Is the AI supposed to do that??!?! I'm not sure if I should re-load and boot Spain out of the alliance, or just go with it and have an absurdly easy game - Germany only has like 2 divisions in each border province.

[Lum]

It won't be THAT easy. If it's mid-1940 you'll probably clear Poland and then run smack into the forces the Germans pull back from the West. Or you'll go all the way to the Rhine and end the game, depending on how broken the AI is. However I'd guess AI Germany doesn't have hardly any units budgeted to invade Spain at all and probably are still redeploying to your border from France.

Note that you'll also get Romania and Hungary and probably Finland jumping into the war on Germany's side if they haven't already.

[salwon]

Finland's puppeted, so that won't be a problem. Honestly, it looks like you've won - what's the problem again? Let Spain go into France and keep the Germans busy why you work your way West. Do Hungary and Rumania have any forces to worry about?

[Jason McCullough]

I reloaded a June save game and immediatelly redeployed my units to the line - which takes FOREVER to stack them into 3x units with commanders, military controlled Spain and moved their troops to the French border, and....nothing. Hrm, maybe the AI previously sensed weakness. Or it's random.

It turns out I've been doing commands completely wrong. Creating size 12 stacks with a FM is somewhat pointless; you actually get more benefit from 4x3 stacks with Lt. Generals. On defense, high-level commanders appear to be completely pointless; on offense, you need just enough to cover the current attacker pile - but all those Lt Generals at 3x still help. Unless I'm missing something, the skill bonuses and combined arms bonuses disappear when you exceed the unmodified stack cap too.

Hilariously, there's no benefit at all to putting skilled Generals on HQ units. STAVKA is now composed entirely of Old Guard incompetents.

[Jason McCullough]

Oh, I should mention how I puppeted Finland, it's amusing. I took them down in a week.

The trick is transports and bombers.

1. Put your bombers on tac patrol in the ocean outside leningrad.
2. Start an amphibious landing in Turku (west of Helsinki).
3. You won't get through the first few times, but you'll never lose any transports; a few cruisers have zero chance of significantly damaging transports before they disengage. Meanwhile, your bombers will annihilate the defending navy.
4. Once the pesky navy is out of the way, commence landing tanks (you did start building tanks in 38, didn't you?).
5. Once you have 6 or more, blow your way across the finish coasts, capture all the victory points, capture a few more inland provinces to get some war score buffer, boom, puppet.

[wintermuse]

That's a clever strategy for bypassing the notorious Finnish land fortifications, although I don't think the Russians actually had the capability historically. Far as I know they never performed any amphibious landings at any point in the war.

I guess the game makes no distinction between transports and amphibious assault craft?

[Jason McCullough]

They're considered the same. The game really should separate out transporting from amphibious somehow; one is easy, one is ludicrously difficult.

Historically it's implausible; militaries hadn't realized the havoc air power can wreak on a navy in 1939.

Given the gameplay constraints it makes perfect sense though!