Arsenal of Democracy (HOI2 on Steroids)

[Ender]

When this was announced a few months ago I thought that Paradox was trying to milk HOI2 suckers. Surely HOI3 would move all the HOI2 gamers on to the next installment. I purchased HOI3 and forgot about AOD.

Skip forward to this week. I finally get some quality time to play HOI3. I love what they tried to do, but it just isn't clicking with me. I was in despair, wondering if I am no longer a wargamer.

Then I started reflecting on how much fun HOI2 was, started browsing around and saw that this little expansion will be launching next week.

Upon reading the dev diaries it looks to be very cool.

Extended time line, more R&D options, industrial production options (building oil refineries, repairing infrastructure, etc.), and new combat rules. Anyone else shelling out 20 more bucks to paradox with me?

[Soapyfrog]

HoI3 is so vastly superior to HoI2 (especially for multiplayer) that I don't think I could go back at this point...

[Ender]

I think I'm looking for the right level of complexity and ease of use. I'm really struggling with getting comfortable with the OOB.

I'll still play through this HOI3 campaign while I wait, and maybe it will click for me.

[Kalle]

HoI3 is so vastly superior to HoI2 (especially for multiplayer) that I don't think I could go back at this point...

No. Just, no. HoI3 is a lot of things but right now it's so broken that calling it superior to HoI2 is a joke.

I'm looking forward to AoD. HoI2 is old and it shows but it's the best game of it's genre ever and AoD might be what it needs to get me to play it yet again.

[Soapyfrog]

Broken how?

I mean there are things I don't like that I think should be fixed but it's totally playable. And multiplayable. And fun!!

[Ender]

It just seems clumsy and cumbersome to move about in the interface. When I want to wage war, I need things to be crisp and easy to manipulate.

[Hanacker]

I've contemplated replaying HOI2 again (always end up picking Japan...) or picking up HOI3, but AOD may be a better option for me depending on how it turns out.

[Soapyfrog]

Perhaps you are merely used to the HoI2 interface? Because at this point I prefer the HoI3 interface, and I certainly could not say the HoI2 interface was better.

[Janster]

Love what they done to Hoi 2, but the map in HOI 3 is just awesome...now they just have to make the thing work..but they are close now..so close.

[Soapyfrog]

The map scale and mechanics of HoI3 are just so much more interesting too.

[Ender]

I guess my main complaint with HOI3 can be summed up with this: Too many provinces to conquer.

[HRose]

The map scale and mechanics of HoI3 are just so much more interesting too.

Map, yes. Mechanics no.

The biggest issues I have with HoI3 are with the design. For example the neutrality.

Not only HoI2 is more reliable and fun, but it's also based on better mechanics overall.

[Ender]

Oh yeah the fun aspect. I felt HOI3 lacking in the fun department. It seems too much like work, but maybe that is due to being less familiar with the interface and mechanics.

Regardless, paradox keeps getting my money.

[Soapyfrog]

Political system needs work but the foundation is good. Don't know how you can say HoI2 was better in the regard tbh.

And HoI2 was certainly not more "reliable" in any way. We needed a list of house rules as long as your arm to play it because of all the funky problems and exploits, and frankly the netcode was/is miserable. HoI3 is MUCH cleaner/stabler (though still has problems admittedly).

I loved HoI2 dearly but HoI3 surpasses it.

[David Erikson]

Political system needs work but the foundation is good. Don't know how you can say HoI2 was better in the regard tbh.

And HoI2 was certainly not more "reliable" in any way. We needed a list of house rules as long as your arm to play it because of all the funky problems and exploits, and frankly the netcode was/is miserable. HoI3 is MUCH cleaner/stabler (though still has problems admittedly).

I loved HoI2 dearly but HoI3 surpasses it.

Disclaimer: I haven't played HOI3. I've read a lot about HOI3 on this thread and from other sources, but still I have no first-hand experience with it.


I did play HOI2 to death, in various modifications. However pretty much everybody on this thread who played HOI3 said that it is much less historically accurate game then HOI2. And that is an instant show-stopper for me when it comes to Paradox games. Same situation as with EU2 vs EU3.

It may very well be that you are right and that HOI3 is better MP game that HOI2. However it doesn't really matter to me since I only play HOI in SP. And when I do I want to play a historical wargame, not generic MP-balanced civilization-style game.

Just my two cents.

[Strollen]

I've play both. Not enough to really claim expertise on either, but certainly in the 30+ hour category. I find both interesting, impressive in their scope. But both are seriously flawed, partly due to the interface, remaining bugs, and the AI with an IQ barely above freezing.

However, fun isn't word I'd use to describe either game.

[Soapyfrog]

However pretty much everybody on this thread who played HOI3 said that is much less historically accurate game then HOI2.

This is true, however I imagine that before long (or maybe already) there will be a histroical accuracy mod that straitjackets the game a bit more.

[Lum]

Broken how?

I mean there are things I don't like that I think should be fixed but it's totally playable. And multiplayable. And fun!!

* The tech system is an unholy unplayable mess that jettisons HOI2's playable streamlining and returns to a HOI1 model where you have to research 12 different elements to build a unit. As a side effect the AI can't research tech at all.
* AI is completely broken - even if you play multiplayer this is an issue unless you have humans playing and micromanaging every nation. If you don't you get the fun spectacle of the UK building nothing but transports, or the US building 5000 light armor battalions and nothing else.
* The espionage/political system means you have much less control over your own government than anyone else who decides to screw with you
* The theatre AI (which you are required to rely on by the game design) tends to break down with more than one front
* The few events (there are almost none) are broken. For example, there's no reason for the Germans to ever offer the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact to Russia since there's no penalty at all to them for not doing so, and no benefit for doing it. Which is fine since the surrender event for the Russian-German war is also broken. (Literally - it apparently never fires, ever)
* Related to the above, HOI3 essentially throws single-player historical simulation out the window in exchange for a surreal multiplayer-focused sandbox which just happens to take place in a World War 2-era world. This may or may not be a problem for you but most people consider it a step back from HOI2 in that respect.

EU3 was also in a similar "er, WTF" state upon release, was made playable by the 2nd expansion, and with the latest is actually close to what I think the designers were aiming for. But it took a while to get there. HOI3 may have a similar life cycle. But I can't recommend anyone buying it as it stands now.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Lum, is that Stanley Baldwin Transports stuff still happening in 1.3? I know the original post is from the 1.2 era.

[mk56]

* The few events (there are almost none) are broken. For example, there's no reason for the Germans to ever offer the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact to Russia since there's no penalty at all to them for not doing so, and no benefit for doing it. Which is fine since the surrender event for the Russian-German war is also broken. (Literally - it apparently never fires, ever)

What do you mean by this exactly? Are you talking about the Bitter Peace event? Because I have never heard of it not firing. Germany has to capture a ton of Soviet land for it to happen, but it does fire. Or are you talking about a different event?

[schurem]

apparently it will be fixed with 1.4, so no, its not fixed with 1.3 :(

[Lum]

What do you mean by this exactly? Are you talking about the Bitter Peace event? Because I have never heard of it not firing. Germany has to capture a ton of Soviet land for it to happen, but it does fire. Or are you talking about a different event?

It may have gotten fixed with the latest patch, because I'd never seen it fire and there's a ton of bug reports on it. Then again the game penalizes you for having countries surrender anyway (collaboration governments are actually more efficient than surrendered territory) so it's probably just as well.

The AI-builds-nothing-but-transports-and-candy bug was addressed in 1.3 but not fixed entirely, the AI still can't research tech effectively so they build lots of useless units and have many unit classes locked out entirely. The promised 1.4 patch features in general are almost word for what what was promised with 1.3 (reduced lag, functional AI), so there you go.

It's hard to say whether or not any of this ever got fixed, since the game's flaws and ever-increasing lag as the game progresses makes it unlikely any game is ever finished. So... yeah, safe to say I'm not a fan. To be fair I never looked too hard at 1.3 since it didn't seem to address many of the core issues with the game.

[Sarkus]

I'm just waiting for the expansion announcement at this point. Then I'll know that they are basically done with the core game. I expect that announcement shortly. My guess is 1.4 will be it.

[David Erikson]

* The tech system is an unholy unplayable mess that jettisons HOI2's playable streamlining and returns to a HOI1 model where you have to research 12 different elements to build a unit. As a side effect the AI can't research tech at all.
* AI is completely broken - even if you play multiplayer this is an issue unless you have humans playing and micromanaging every nation. If you don't you get the fun spectacle of the UK building nothing but transports, or the US building 5000 light armor battalions and nothing else.
* The espionage/political system means you have much less control over your own government than anyone else who decides to screw with you
* The theatre AI (which you are required to rely on by the game design) tends to break down with more than one front
* The few events (there are almost none) are broken. For example, there's no reason for the Germans to ever offer the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact to Russia since there's no penalty at all to them for not doing so, and no benefit for doing it. Which is fine since the surrender event for the Russian-German war is also broken. (Literally - it apparently never fires, ever)
* Related to the above, HOI3 essentially throws single-player historical simulation out the window in exchange for a surreal multiplayer-focused sandbox which just happens to take place in a World War 2-era world. This may or may not be a problem for you but most people consider it a step back from HOI2 in that respect.

EU3 was also in a similar "er, WTF" state upon release, was made playable by the 2nd expansion, and with the latest is actually close to what I think the designers were aiming for. But it took a while to get there. HOI3 may have a similar life cycle. But I can't recommend anyone buying it as it stands now.

Thank you for a good detailed overview Lum. Based upon this description I am certainly going to pass on this game. I'll check it again in a year or so, to see if there will be patches/mods to address these problems. But considering history of recent Paradox games I am not holding my breath. :(

[baelthazar]

EU3 was also in a similar "er, WTF" state upon release, was made playable by the 2nd expansion, and with the latest is actually close to what I think the designers were aiming for. But it took a while to get there. HOI3 may have a similar life cycle. But I can't recommend anyone buying it as it stands now.

This is categorically false. EU3 was well playable and a big step beyond EU2 upon release.

But Lum's comments about HoI3 are accurate. I can't even get the game to play correctly, as the UI lag persists on my system. It just wasn't worth me trying to fix it to play a game that has such serious flaws.

Since I can play AoD in 1440x900 (according to the website) it sounds like it fits the bill. I really just wanted a HoI2 (with all expansions) that I could play on modern resolutions. I should have saved my $$ for AoD rather than getting the mess of HoI3. I don't do MP either, and so I could care less if it works in MP.

I fear for Victoria 2, but I'm such a Vicky fan, that I'll probably make the same mistake.

Bael

[Xemu]

Yeah, I'm pretty disillusioned with HOI3 as well -- I'm worried that time has given me rose colored glasses about returning to HOI2 but AoD sounds pretty darn good honestly.

[Kalle]

This is categorically false. EU3 was well playable and a big step beyond EU2 upon release.

I'm not going to rehash all my issues with EU3 here but I will say that as a longtime fan of the EU series I, like Lum, was very disappointed with EU3 at release and I have no problem saying it was an inferior game.

[Lum]

Yeah. It was playable, it was just very ahistorical, with almost no events and few of the new systems that essentially replaced them. IMHO once In Nomine came out EU3 had finally caught up with EU2, and Heir to the Throne surpasses it. But it took a while to get there.

And like everyone else, I'm looking forward to AoD - bringing HoI2 up to widescreen modern monitor levels alone will be nice.

[VegasRobb]

So ah ... it sounds like a good time to set up a multiplayer session of HoI2?

[Ender]

Game is live, and it is a lot of fun. Lots of cool new additions.

Native high resolution support
New techs
New diplomatic and political options
Way easier trade/supply system
Improved combat system

That's about all I've come across in my first few hours.