Mass Effect 2 NON Spoiler thread

[malkav11]

RPG may not be the most accurate label for the genre, in that computer games necessarily lack the ability to offer the kind of wide-open role-playing experience that a tabletop session with a human GM can offer. But I would argue that there is a definite genre here which involves key elements like tactical combat, character building through experience gains, and equipment, along with a fairly prominent role for story and, in more modern interpretations, user-selectable dialogue. Or something along those lines. I'm not great with precise definitions, but we can all be fairly sure things like SSI's Gold Box games, the Ultima games, Fallout, and the Baldur's Gate franchise count as "RPGs", yes?

And I think that ME2 retains enough genre elements to reasonably be considered a member of that genre, if fringe, but I think it's bizarre to count a game discarding most of the elements of a genre as "advancing" that genre. Advancing out of the genre, maybe. Which isn't to say ME2 isn't an enjoyable, very possibly great game. It is. But I'd be very pissed if game developers abandon the genre proper in favor of some sort of shooter spinoff. I like shooters well enough but I don't want them to replace stuff like Baldur's Gate. (Any more than I wanted real-time combat to replace stuff like the Gold Box or Temple of Elemental Evil. But I guess I'm outvoted on that, and that's why, no, Charles, I -can't- go play a turn-based game if I wanted to. Nothing new, anyway.)

[Bahimiron]

Planescape was more adventure game than RPG though. It still had RPG elements, but it was weighted in one direction more so than the other.

I'm not sure why people continued to debate with him after this point.

[Mordrak]

I'm not sure why people continued to debate with him after this point.

What? You think Dragon's Lair dialog amounts to the essence of an RPG? Maybe it's because the first adventure games I played were the Heroes Quest/Quest for Glory series, but Planescape is very very dialog heavy where you spend a lot of time wandering around looking for weird items, solving puzzles, and talking to quirky NPCs to unlock specific story elements. That's adventure game mechanics.

It's been years since I've played it, but that was my impression when I finished. It's a great game, Planescape is my favorite D&D setting, but I'm not sure how that changes what you spend a lot of time doing.

[Bahimiron]

Planescape is very very dialog heavy where you spend a lot of time wandering around for weird items and talking to NPCs to unlock specific story elements.

This also describes Fallout. And VtM: Bloodlines. And Dragon Age.

What this thread needs is someone with the balls to just come out and say it.

No computer or console game is, or has ever been, an RPG.

[Mordrak]

This also describes Fallout. And VtM: Bloodlines. And Dragon Age.

There's a qualitative difference, but I'd throw in Bloodlines as an Adventure RPG as well.

For example, this is how you get Ignus in your party in Planescape:

Enter the Smoldering Corpse
.....
The first thing you will probably notice in here, is the burning man just
ahead of you. You can examine him, but nothing comes of it just
yet.
....
Getting him into the party is a little more work. First you
need the Decanter of Endless Water (Drowned Nations), then
you get the Word from Nemelle (Clerk's Ward). Finally you
can use it on Ignus to free him.
......

How do we get the Decanter of Endless Water?

It's an item found in a zone while your adventuring, which if I remember correctly, no indication it's for Ignus other than the name which means you have to use adventure game puzzle solving logic.

And then... guess what.. you need a password for the item.

Well here's the exchange:

Let's get that password for the Decanter of Endless Water first, so that
we can awaken Ignus. Drop down to the exterior bar and talk to Nemelle
(x 380 y 2590).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
NPC: Nemelle (doesn't join)

Stats: HP AC THAC0 Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha
4/4 0 20 9 9 9 9 9 9

Ask her first for the command word to the Decanter, and she'll
give it to you. Then ask her if she is looking for someone, and she'll
reply in the affirmative, she is looking for Aelwyn.

*ALIGNMENT*: Offering to find her friend makes you more GOOD. Offering
to do it for a price makes you more EVIL.

Now go over to the right, to the next exterior bar and talk to Aelwyn
(x 3615 y 2450). Tell her that Nemelle is looking for her, and she'll
tell you to go back and talk to Nemelle again. Agree to do so.

*ALIGNMENT*: That makes you more GOOD. Asking a price makes you more
EVIL.

Return to Nemelle and tell her the good news. She wants to reward you,
and you get 8000 Exp and:

PERMANENT +3 MAX HP

*ALIGNMENT*: If you are modest and say that you don't need a reward, you
are more GOOD. (and she rewards you anyway)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since we have the Word for the Decanter, back to the Smoldering Corpse.

Now consider that exchange too. Planescape is very heavy on giving you statistical bonuses based solely on your dialog options (not XP for killing things, or using your skills, but purely if you choose the appropriate option in dialog). That's blending adventure game tropes and traditional RPG mechanics by giving you mechanical awards associated with RPGs for adventure game problem solving. Throw in how dialog heavy the game is and much of it leans more toward the adventure game or text adventure mechanics than a traditional RPG.

The way it blends the two genres is one of the things that makes Planescape great and I think it'd be a disservice to the game to try and render it in the style of Charles' purified RPG fluids.

[Bahimiron]

Your choices affect your alignment? Why, it's almost as if they're using some kind of Dungeons and Dragons inspired alignment system! As Dungeons and Dragons is the classic pen and paper adventure game (in fact, it was originally created by TSR, which stands for The Adventure Games Company) you've sold me on your philosophies.

[Mordrak]

Your choices affect your alignment? Why, it's almost as if they're using some kind of Dungeons and Dragons inspired alignment system! As Dungeons and Dragons is the classic pen and paper adventure game (in fact, it was originally created by TSR, which stands for The Adventure Games Company) you've sold me on your philosophies.

I was referring to the +3 Hit Points not the alignment system. Jesus. Did I say the alignment system came from adventure games? No.

Or take this exchange...

O immediately says that he knows you. He mentions that your quest to
know yourself always ends in your amnesia. You could challenge him to
battle to tell you more, but, you really shouldn't.

Ask him about who he is (and don't call him crazy). Ask him WHAT he is,
and then ask what that means. Ask then if he knows the secrets of
existence. He knows parts of many. Finally finish by saying that he
DOESN'T know the secrets of existence and you get a:

PERMANENT WISDOM +1

Or how about when you get your old eyeball, put it in your head, get a vision and get a bunch of XP (maybe something else?) for it. It's totally awesome when you do it, but it's a style of gameplay that's straight out of adventure games, but with RPG rewards.

[Bahimiron]

The +3 max HP appears to be a quest reward. It does not say that you get it for choosing a specific response. It says that you get it for finishing the quest. Go talk to one person, go talk to another person. What you say can affect your alignment, but you're getting that +3 to max HP unless you roleplay the role of a guy who doesn't finish quests.

[Mordrak]

The +3 max HP appears to be a quest reward. It does not say that you get it for choosing a specific response. It says that you get it for finishing the quest. Go talk to one person, go talk to another person. What you say can affect your alignment, but you're getting that +3 to max HP unless you roleplay the role of a guy who doesn't finish quests.

That's fine, that particular back and forth quests between those NPCs may not be the best example, but it doesn't change my larger point with Ignus (of which that particular conversation was an aside) and the old eyeball, that much of Planescape's gameplay relies on adventure game logic and mechanics.

To get Ignus, you have to think about an item you find, connect to the environment using the logic the way the designer wants you (which is essentially an association puzzle) by combining an ever smoldering man with an endless decanter of water so the two infinities cancel out. That's classic adventure gaming.

[hong]

I thought you said you were spent?

This is nonsense because it says nothing about how many people actively raid. I have characters that hit the respective caps at the time and only raided in short stints with either of them. I was one of the three people that ever raided in my peer group of friends.

The point is that whatever you may be doing at level 80, you are doing it at level 80 and not at the other 79 levels before it. So you might as well cut to the chase.

Edit: And if you're too obtuse to figure what I mean by the title, Dragon Quest and the Final Fantasy series are very different types of RPGs than what Mass Effect 2 does, but I gather their hits in the series sell many more copies than ME2. Wouldn't that make them the epitome of RPGs by your standard? Do they make dialog trees archaic cruft? How is ME2 shaping up compared to Oblivion or Fallout 3?

Obviously there is room for more than one epitome of RPGs. Nevertheless, I am sure that if you were to remove levels, loot and crates from both Oblivion and Fallout 3, they would both be better for it. These features were there to cater for the behavioural quirks of the small subset of the population that originally played RPGs on the computer, and once you move to a larger base that no longer exhibits those quirks, the need for them is lessened.

[hong]

There's a qualitative difference, but I'd throw in Bloodlines as an Adventure RPG as well.

... of course, you could just call them "RPGs".

It's an item found in a zone while your adventuring, which if I remember correctly, no indication it's for Ignus other than the name which means you have to use adventure game puzzle solving logic.

No, you use old-style (C)RPG logic, namely that if you can pick it up, you do so. If something can be looted, then loot it. If something can be talked to, then talk to it. If something can be killed, then kill it. Preferably in that order.

Now consider that exchange too. Planescape is very heavy on giving you statistical bonuses based solely on your dialog options (not XP for killing things, or using your skills, but purely if you choose the appropriate option in dialog). That's blending adventure game tropes and traditional RPG mechanics by giving you mechanical awards associated with RPGs for adventure game problem solving. Throw in how dialog heavy the game is and much of it leans more toward the adventure game or text adventure mechanics than a traditional RPG.

And yet it remains an RPG.

The way it blends the two genres is one of the things that makes Planescape great and I think it'd be a disservice to the game to try and render it in the style of Charles' purified RPG fluids.

... you really think that Planescape was considered a classic because of how you could kill monsters and take their stuff?

[hong]

The side quests and other world off-roading is my favorite part about [Mass Effect].

Clearly you are not in the target market for ME2.

[hong]

That's fine, that particular back and forth quests between those NPCs may not be the best example, but it doesn't change my larger point with Ignus (of which that particular conversation was an aside) and the old eyeball, that much of Planescape's gameplay relies on adventure game logic and mechanics.

Much of Planescape's gameplay does not rely on pixel bitching or the application of the exact combination of verb and noun.

To get Ignus, you have to think about an item you find, connect to the environment using the logic the way the designer wants you (which is essentially an association puzzle) by combining an ever smoldering man with an endless decanter of water so the two infinities cancel out. That's classic adventure gaming.

To get Ignus, you have to loot everything you find, explore every nook and cranny on the maps, and talk to everyone. Which is par for the course for old-skool RPGs.

[Mordrak]

The point is that whatever you may be doing at level 80, you are doing it at level 80 and not at the other 79 levels before it. So you might as well cut to the chase.

The point is wrong when people like leveling up from 1 to 80 and do it repeatedly instead of raiding or pvping. When people say the game starts at 80, they're talking about end game progression or PVP (though there was still a big level 19 pvp segment too when I played). For many people, the game is the journey from 1-80 (or whenever they choose to stop).

Obviously there is room for more than one epitome of RPGs. Nevertheless, I am sure that if you were to remove levels, loot and crates from both Oblivion and Fallout 3, they would both be better for it. These features were there to cater for the behavioural quirks of the small subset of the population that originally played RPGs on the computer, and once you move to a larger base that no longer exhibits those quirks, the need for them is lessened.

Again, you show that you're tone deaf to mechanics. Scavenging for items in Fallout 3 actually enhances the experience as you're playing in a post apocalyptic waste land. Looking in old containers, in wrecked building, etc for supplies is part of the atmosphere.

Oblivion's leveling system has some very particular quirks that certainly could be ironed out, but Oblivion would not be better served by abandoning its robust character creation options, the principle of its skill system, and open world size/mechanics for a dual personality, baked in character, branching path action adventure game.

Also, if you're searching through every crate you see in Oblivion in search of phat lewt, you're doing it wrong. Oblivion makes it very clear there's not much in a lot of the crates and if you're a thief you can steal stuff directly from store shelves. That said, the crates having miscellaneous junk in them adds atmosphere to the open pseudo-living world they are trying to create.

What you seem to be unable to grasp is that rule sets themselves are able to create frameworks and tell stories for understanding the player's experience and any given mechanic within the bounds of a given genre can be used well or poorly depending on its implementation context. Describing everything ME2 doesn't do in the RPG genre as archaic cruft is a gross over generalization of genre tropes.

[Moggraider]

Heh, I'm finally annoyed by all the quests involving either the Blue Suns, the Blood Pack, or the Eclipse.

I wish evolving the powers didn't always just result in the same power, but stronger or with an area effect, depending on your choice of evolution.

Zaeed was a nice change of pace in that he's the only character who doesn't ask you to do something before he joins you.

[hong]

The point is wrong when people like leveling up from 1 to 80. When people say the game starts at 80, they're talking about end game progression or PVP (though there was still a big level 19 pvp segment too when I played). For many people, the game is the journey from 1-80.

Clearly not as many as those for whom the game starts at level 80.

Again, you show that you're tone deaf to mechanics. Scavenging for items in Fallout 3 actually enhances the experience as you're playing in a post apocalyptic waste land. Looking in old containers, in wrecked building, etc for supplies is part of the atmosphere.

No, looking in various random containers is simply the application of the crates principle to that particular game. It just happens to be a slightly better fit for Fallout than for most other RPGs.

Now tell me about how a level 30 guy in power armour and wielding a Gatling laser enhances the experience of playing a scrounging scavenger in a post-apocalyptic wasteland.

Oblivion's leveling system has some very particular quirks that certainly could be ironed out, but Oblivion would not be better served by abandoning its robust character creation options, the principle of its skill system, and open world mechanics for a dual personality, baked in character, branching path action adventure game.

You mean an intricately detailed, personality-rich, character-driven immersive roleplaying game.

Also, if you're searching through every crate you see in Oblivion in search of phat lewt, you're doing it wrong.

No, you are doing it exactly right.

Oblivion makes it very clear there's not much in a lot of the crates and if you're a thief you can steal stuff directly from store shelves. That said, the crates having miscellaneous junk in them adds atmosphere to the open pseudo-living world they are trying to create.

The reason for having crates is to act as easter eggs to encourage people to move around and explore the virtual world. If the world was sufficiently interesting in the first place, you wouldn't need these easter eggs.

What you seem to be unable to grasp is that rule sets themselves are able to create frameworks and tell stories for understanding the player's experience.

Asking a ruleset to tell a story is like asking a sports commentator to tell a story from a football game. It may technically be true, but it sure ain't what the average guy on the street would consider a story.

[Mordrak]

Clearly not as many as those for whom the game starts at level 80.

Clearly? Really? Pull out those links showing demographics and gameplay demographics of WoW. Did Blizzard release a memo that 90% of players only play their level 80 characters? That 90% of players only raid or pvp at max level instead of starting a new character?

No, looking in various random containers is simply the application of the crates principle to that particular game. It just happens to be a slightly better fit for Fallout than for most other RPGs.

Ok, dude, whatever. Keep fumbling around in the dark claiming you're not blind.

Now tell me about how a level 30 guy in power armour and wielding a Gatling laser enhances the experience of playing a scrounging scavenger in a post-apocalyptic wasteland.

I didn't have a Gatling Laser at the end of Fallout 3 nor was I using Power Armor at the end of Fallout 3 (or level 30, I was 20, but you're talking about DLC with the level). I eschewed the high powered stuff to stay in character. I do think they abandon the fundamentals they set up as it goes on, which is a problem with the game, but then where you land on the problem depends on your taste with regard to balance. That's why I heart mods*.

Edit: *And that Bethesda's open world design is flexible enough to offer a variety of ways to approach their open worlds. That doesn't make Fallout 3 a better game than ME2, just different. I like ME2 quite a bit.

You mean an intricately detailed, personality-rich, character-driven immersive roleplaying game.

I don't disagree with every point you're making here, but I can only laugh at your persistent inability to grasp what's being discussed.

No, you are doing it exactly right.

No actually, you're doing it wrong. I feel sorry for you if you obsessive compulsively checked every single crate you ever came across. You don't get much for your troubles doing that.

The reason for having crates is to act as easter eggs to encourage people to move around and explore the virtual world. If the world was sufficiently interesting in the first place, you wouldn't need these easter eggs.

Sigh. I'm the one that's totally limiting the definition of RPGs. How could I have been so myopic!

Asking a ruleset to tell a story is like asking a sports commentator to tell a story from a football game. It may technically be true, but it sure ain't what the average guy on the street would consider a story.

Really? You don't think the King in chess only being able to move one space, but in any direction, says anything about what it means to lead an organization? You don't think the fact that the Queen is the most powerful piece on the board says anything at all?

[hong]

Clearly? Really? Pull out those links showing demographics and gameplay demographics of WoW. Did Blizzard release a memo that 90% of players only play their level 80 characters? That 90% of players only raid or pvp at max level?

As far as I'm aware, the majority of WoW characters are at the level cap, or close (very close) to it. This is supported by the insane demand for the expansions when they came out. If you have anything to suggest otherwise, you show it.

Ok, dude, whatever. Keep fumbling around in the dark claiming you're not blind.

Or something.

I didn't have a Gatling Laser at the end of Fallout 3 nor was I using Power Armor at the end of Fallout 3. I eschewed those to stay in character.

Very good. Would you like a cookie?

I do think they abandon the fundamentals they set up as it goes on, which is a problem with the game, but then where you land on the problem depends on your taste. That's why I heart mods.

... or you could just admit that the same old RPG framework of levels, loot and crates doesn't fit Fallout.

I don't disagree with every point you're making here, but I can only laugh at your persistent inability to grasp what's being discussed.

Go ahead, if it makes you feel better.

No actually, you're doing it wrong. I feel sorry for you if you obsessive compulsively checked every single crate you ever came across. You don't get much for your troubles doing that.

Did I say I obsessively compulsively checked every single crate?

Sigh. I'm the one that's totally limiting the definition of RPGs. How could I have been so myopic!

Exactly. You have reified the presence of various gimmicks, because you are the type of player who likes levels, loot and crates, but that does not make them any less gimmicky in any sort of game other than a D&D clone.

Really? You don't think the King in chess only being able to move one space, but in any direction, in Chess says anything about what it means to be a King? You don't think the fact that the Queen is the most powerful piece on the board is says anything at all?

Chess-as-story-facilitator. Right.

This too will be on your tombstone, right below the bit where you said Planescape: Torment wasn't an RPG.

[Mordrak]

As far as I'm aware, the majority of WoW characters are at the level cap, or close (very close) to it. This is supported by the insane demand for the expansions when they came out. If you have anything to suggest otherwise, you show it.

Why is the onus on me to show it? You're the one that brought up World of Warcraft as evidence to abolish levels altogether, which is laughably absurd. What's even funnier is even if your made up statistic were true, it doesn't say what you think it says.

... or you could just admit that the same old RPG framework of levels, loot and crates doesn't fit Fallout.

I know you think your mantra is clever and all, but your blind devotion to it (like all religion) is hampering your ability to comprehend.

Exactly. You have reified the presence of various gimmicks, because you are the type of player who likes levels, loot and crates, but that does not make them any less gimmicky in any sort of game other than a D&D clone.

I had a friend that played Morrowind by clearing bits of the map and killing every single person he could and then piling their clothes on top of them. That was his main gameplay loop. Pretty crazy huh? People play games in much greater variety of ways than for whatever reason your mind is willing to admit. And you know what, they have fun doing it!

Chess-as-story-facilitator. Right.

This too will be on your tombstone, right below the bit where you said Planescape: Torment wasn't an RPG.

Verbatim, that's exactly what I said.

Planescape: Torment isn't an RPG.

--Mordrak

[hong]

Why is the onus on me to show it?

Because denying that most actual play in WoW takes place at high levels flies in the face of everything I've seen, from online threads to expansion sales figures to remembered statistics of level breakdowns.

You're the one that brought up World of Warcraft as evidence to abolish levels altogether, which is laughably absurd. What's even funnier is even if it were true, the statistic doesn't say what you think it says.

It says exactly what I think it says.

I know you think your mantra is clever and all, but your blind devotion to it (like all religion) is hampering your ability to comprehend.

Oh, I comprehend very well.

I had a friend that played Morrowind by clearing bits of the map and killing every single person he could and then piling their clothes on top of them. That was his driving gameplay mechanic. Pretty crazy huh? But guess what, people play games in much greater variety of ways than for whatever reason your mind is willing to admit. And you know what, they have fun doing it!

People will indeed do all kinds of crazy things. This is why we have to discount individual anecdotes and tales that may differ from the norm. Like, oh, someone who insists that they play WoW for the low-level experience.

Verbatim, that's exactly what I said.

I am glad you admitted it. Now tell us again the one about how chess facilitates the creation of stories. That's a great one, that is!

[jeffd]

That's true of many systems still in the game. Why not get rid of hacking, scanning, research, equipment, class system? They don't contribute anything to the deep meaningful purity of Charles' true RPG essence. You can strip all that out and leave the renegade/paragon system and the squad based action gameplay, expand the weapon options for all the characters and let the weapons stand in for skills. Switching weapons becomes the cooldown timer.

Probably it would help if you actually engaged with other posters, rather than just replying to the phantoms in your head.

[jeffd]

Planescape was more adventure game than RPG though. It still had RPG elements, but it was weighted in one direction more so than the other.

OK, you are one of the following. Which is it (I really want to know!)

a) crazy
b) stupid
c) trolling

[Mordrak]

Because denying that most actual play in WoW takes place at high levels flies in the face of everything I've seen, from online threads to expansion sales figures to remembered statistics of level breakdowns.

Well then pull them out from somewhere other than your ass and put out a better argument than because you say so.

It says exactly what I think it says.

The number of max level characters is a function of how casual WoW's leveling experience is in the MMO space, in addition to a rough estimate of accessibility and indirect quality.

It's says nothing else about the game by itself.

People will indeed do all kinds of crazy things. This is why we have to discount individual anecdotes and tales that may differ from the norm. Like, oh, someone who insists that they play WoW for the low-level experience.

You'll notice I didn't argue that was a norm. Actually, unlike you, I'm the one who isn't making gross generalizations.

[hong]

Well then pull them out from somewhere other than your ass and put out a better argument than because you say so.

I believe this could be said of the other party as well.

The number of max level characters is a function of how casual WoW's leveling experience is in the MMO space, in addition to a rough estimate of accessibility and indirect quality.

It's says nothing else about the game by itself.

You know, you could just stop making excuses and accept that people play at the level cap because that's the most fun part of WoW. Yes, they could always go back and make new characters, but for the most part, they don't. And it is entirely understandable why this might be so.

You'll notice I didn't argue that was a norm. Actually, unlike you, I'm the one who isn't making gross generalizations.

If you knew it wasn't the norm, then there really was no reason to mention it, was there? I guess you really are spent after all?

[Mordrak]

Probably it would help if you actually engaged with other posters, rather than just replying to the phantoms in your head.

Really?

Sure. And it's still the purest form of an actual RPG. Or, more to the point, it's a true RPG rather than the misnomer RPGs are.

OK, you are one of the following. Which is it (I really want to know!)

a) crazy
b) stupid
c) trolling

Well you can actually look at the examples I gave and decide for yourself.

[Mordrak]

If you knew it wasn't the norm, then there really was no reason to mention it, was there? I guess you really are spent after all?

I mentioned it because of the options and combinations of gameplay in a Bethesda style of open world gives the player. That's part of what makes them good games (and even good RPGs), but Charles would abandon in search of the purest form of RPG (which is really an idiotic statement).

[hong]

I mentioned it because of the options and combinations of gameplay in a Bethesda style of open world gives the player. That's part of what makes those them good games (and even good RPGs), but Charles would abandon in search of the purest form of RPG.

Being able to cater to pathological gameplay is not what I would consider should be the highest priority in game design, no.

[Mordrak]

Being able to cater to pathological gameplay is not what I would consider should be the highest priority in game design, no.

But that's what's cool about it. They didn't set out to cater specifically to pathological game play. I doubt they even thought he would do that. But the game lets him play that way anyway. It lets him play the way he wants to. That's what's great about their game design principals. Does that make those games better RPGs?

I don't know. I'm not making an argument about what the best or purest RPG is, unlike you and Charles.

[MattKeil]

Well you can actually look at the examples I gave and decide for yourself.

I have decided that you're horrendously unclear on what the "R" in "RPG" stands for. Hint: It's not 'rithmatic.

[hong]

And IME, when people say they want the "freedom to explore different options and combinations", what they really mean is the freedom to play this game in exactly the same way as they played every other game. With levels, loot and crates, IOW.