Monday Night Combat - we've just announced

[SamF7]

Heh, Level 75, mostly Gunner, and I had FORGOTTEN that the gunner actually has an ability to GRAPPLE (shows how often I use it)!!

Started messing with it a bit last night - it's actually not bad. As one of the previous posters said, it's the "Go-To" ability when being charged from the front by an Assassin, Assault, or Heavy. I used to try to use the Right-Click-Mortar-Grapple, but as you can figure, 9 times out of 10 I don't have the Mortar out, and would usually finger-fumble trying to switch to Mortar before right clicking (resulting in me dying most times).

Last Night I started mucking with the ABILITY Grapple!! - Now which key did I map that too? Very nice indeed. Also, it doesn't matter which weapon you have out - it GRAPPLES!!

An instant grapple followed by a slam ends most face-charging threats easily.

Damn - another ability to soak up my $$'s during a game. I actually kinda LIKED the gunners lack of abilities to pour money into, as I was generally upgrading my teams turrets long before my other teammates.

I never put a point into lockdown, still.

SamF7

[Matt Perkins]

I don't agree at all. IMO Deploy is worse.

Also, I only highlighted the Double Grapple + Slam combo to highlight the hilarity. The real advantage of grapple is the ability to KO facestabbing Sins, avoid Tank/Assault Charge and neutralizing Juice Rushes. It's purely a defensive ability and used as such is extremely powerful.

I guess to each their own, but for me I use Deploy a fair amount. Get a good vantage point, see a few guys. Deploy, do double mini guns of power, cut down some fools, undeploy and find another spot now that they have focused on you. Plus, you are unable to be grappled while deployed, so if an Assassin starts attacking you, just undeploy, Slam, finish off.

Grapple, on the other hand, is the lesser cousin to Slam in every way except for creating distance, once upgraded between me and the guy I am killing. As a Gunner, I do not want distance. If I do upgrade that skill, I almost never upgrade it to the final unless I am just out of things to spend money on.

*shrugs*. I have Slam, it is area affect and stuns...other than being available while Slam is recharging, what other advantage does it give me?

[Matt Perkins]

Heh, Level 75, mostly Gunner, and I had FORGOTTEN that the gunner actually has an ability to GRAPPLE (shows how often I use it)!!

Started messing with it a bit last night - it's actually not bad. As one of the previous posters said, it's the "Go-To" ability when being charged from the front by an Assassin, Assault, or Heavy. I used to try to use the Right-Click-Mortar-Grapple, but as you can figure, 9 times out of 10 I don't have the Mortar out, and would usually finger-fumble trying to switch to Mortar before right clicking (resulting in me dying most times).

Last Night I started mucking with the ABILITY Grapple!! - Now which key did I map that too? Very nice indeed. Also, it doesn't matter which weapon you have out - it GRAPPLES!!

An instant grapple followed by a slam ends most face-charging threats easily.

Damn - another ability to soak up my $$'s during a game. I actually kinda LIKED the gunners lack of abilities to pour money into, as I was generally upgrading my teams turrets long before my other teammates.

I never put a point into lockdown, still.

SamF7

Lockdown? Deploy, you mean? If so, I can not believe more people do not use this skill. While Grapple might have some uses in some cases, Deploy is a dream for dealing damage and surviving, if done correctly.

Incorrect way to Deploy:
Stand out in the open for any long period of time. See previous rules about always moving. Standing anywhere a sniper can see, even if you are fully upgraded (and hence have headshot protection), it still only a few shots and most snipers can finish you off before you can UnDeploy.

Correct way to Deploy:
Find a fire fight with multiple people involved. Find a good vantage point. Deploy, use doubled up mini guns to literally cut everyone and anything down. UnDeploy, skadaddle away.

Double mini guns is a HUGE advantage...

[Alstein]

For Tanks you want to use the deploy to gain health. You don't really gain much of a firefight advantage. It can be used on laser blazers to gain juice, though I consider that too risky unless the other team is completely unaware. Lvl 3 Tank Deploy refills ammo, though I don't consider that a big deal, lvl 2 deploy is worth getting usually.

For tank skills, I rate lvl 3 charge and lvl 3 health most important, lvl 3 grenade can be more important then charge situationally (lots of gunners/assaults)

Lvl 2 grenade is vital for its stunning of jackbots and turrets- your main job as a tank is to take care of jackbots, bots and turrets. Players are almost secondary.

Gunner deploy is headshot immune, tank deploy isn't.

[AaronSofaer]

It is silly, but that kills the game for you? Did you refuse to by Dragon Age 2 for the same reasons? Did you also pass on most every FPS released in the past 10 years? GTA4 (and probably before) were definitely out, right?

I am just saying, that seems like a silly detail to stop you from liking a game overall. But to be fair, to each their own.

Yes, yes, and yes.

And definitely. :)

The only FPS I've bought in the last few years is ... TF2. Other games I own: Altitude, Magicka, Alien Swarm, World of Warcraft, Starcraft II, and the Humble Bundles.

[Matt Perkins]

Heh, was curious... In that case, I give my stamp approval to your decision! :P


Me, it does not bother so much. I even let the kids watch this game, where I did not let them watch TF2 since it less cartoony in it's violence in parts. The breasts mostly covered, while silly, do not have me shy away me or my kids. Last I checked, something like 50% of the population has them and I am not scared of them.*






* - much!

[lordkosc]

I am sure it higher than 50% if you count in man boobs.

:D

[AaronSofaer]

It's just tacky. >.<

*mutter grumble damn kids get off my lawn*

[Matt Perkins]

It's just tacky. >.<

*mutter grumble damn kids get off my lawn*

You sir, are completely and totally right.

[Strato]

It's just tacky. >.<

*mutter grumble damn kids get off my lawn*

Completely agree with you too.

Personally for me though, it was just a loading screen, and only fills a small part of the game.

[Wthermans]

I guess to each their own, but for me I use Deploy a fair amount. Get a good vantage point, see a few guys. Deploy, do double mini guns of power, cut down some fools, undeploy and find another spot now that they have focused on you. Plus, you are unable to be grappled while deployed, so if an Assassin starts attacking you, just undeploy, Slam, finish off.

Grapple, on the other hand, is the lesser cousin to Slam in every way except for creating distance, once upgraded between me and the guy I am killing. As a Gunner, I do not want distance. If I do upgrade that skill, I almost never upgrade it to the final unless I am just out of things to spend money on.

*shrugs*. I have Slam, it is area affect and stuns...other than being available while Slam is recharging, what other advantage does it give me?

Slam is easily avoidable. Grapple isn't. If you try to Slam a Sin that just face-grappled you, most of the time they're just going to jump your Slam.

While you may miss the Grapple when they jump (as you can't grapple a target that's in mid-air), it doesn't reset your skill timer like it would if you had used Slam. Plus Grapple does far more damage than Slam. IIRC it's one of the highest damage Grapples in the game.

As for Deploy, I just find that anytime I meet a Gunner using Deploy, I'll just corner mortar them to death or until they undeploy. And from long range, mortar will wreck a deployed Gunner.

As for Deploy making you invulnerable to Grapple (and level 3 blocking Headshots), a good Sin will just Shuri you to death at range. One clip will unload and kill you faster than you can either kill the Sin or undeploy. Deployed Gunner/Tank = easy Shuri kill. Likewise, a Sniper doesn't need to land a headshot on a target that takes almost 2 seconds to start moving again. With Gold ROF, the Sniper will get off his 3 shots to KO you faster than you can undeploy.

That said, I do think Deploy is a great situational weapon. As you stated, it's great for causing chaos in a crowd of distracted opponents. The slow alone will lead to some easy kills. Deploy is also really great when you face another Gunner unexpectedly in close to Medium Range, the Crit really turns the tide in your favor during these duels.

For Tanks you want to use the deploy to gain health. You don't really gain much of a firefight advantage. It can be used on laser blazers to gain juice, though I consider that too risky unless the other team is completely unaware. Lvl 3 Tank Deploy refills ammo, though I don't consider that a big deal, lvl 2 deploy is worth getting usually.

For tank skills, I rate lvl 3 charge and lvl 3 health most important, lvl 3 grenade can be more important then charge situationally (lots of gunners/assaults)

Lvl 2 grenade is vital for its stunning of jackbots and turrets- your main job as a tank is to take care of jackbots, bots and turrets. Players are almost secondary.

Gunner deploy is headshot immune, tank deploy isn't.

I like Tank deploy more than Gunner deploy (at least Level 2 Tank Deploy). The health regen is great when you don't have a Support on your team (or just have one that is too busy to heal you). I agree about level 3 Health and level 3 Charge being most important. I usually upgrade those ASAP.

My upgrade paths are...

Tank: Health 2, Charge 2, Charge 3, Health 3, Product Grenade 2, Product Grenade 3, Deploy 2, turret/bot spam

Gunner: Mortar/Gun 2, Mortar/Gun 3, Grapple 2, Slam 2, Grapple 3, Slam 3, turret/bot spam, Deploy 2

Assassin: Blade 2, Blade 3, Cloak 2, Cloak 3, Dash 2, Smoke Bomb 2, Smoke Bomb 3, Dash 3, turret/bot spam

Assault: Crit/Jump 2, Bomb 2, Charge 2, Bomb 3, Crit/Jump 3, Charge 3, Flight 2, Flight 3, turret/bot spam

Support: Turret 2, Hack 2, Artillery 2, Hack 3, Turret 3, Artillery 3, Bot Heal 2, Bot Heal 3, turret/bot spam

Sniper: Sniper Rifle 2, Trap 2, Sniper Rifle 3, Trap 3, Grapple 2, Flak 2, Flak 3, Grapple 3, turret/bot spam

[Matt Perkins]

Slam is easily avoidable. Grapple isn't. If you try to Slam a Sin that just face-grappled you, most of the time they're just going to jump your Slam.

To each their own play style. I always go for the AOE first. :)

I like Tank deploy more than Gunner deploy (at least Level 2 Tank Deploy). The health regen is great when you don't have a Support on your team (or just have one that is too busy to heal you). I agree about level 3 Health and level 3 Charge being most important. I usually upgrade those ASAP.

I honestly do not get Deploying as a Tank. I use the rail gun then? Meh. The Tank appears to be all about close range to me. I do not play them a lot though and really never deploy as them when I do.

My upgrade paths are...

Tank: Health 2, Charge 2, Charge 3, Health 3, Product Grenade 2, Product Grenade 3, Deploy 2, turret/bot spam

Pretty much the same here.

Gunner: Mortar/Gun 2, Mortar/Gun 3, Grapple 2, Slam 2, Grapple 3, Slam 3, turret/bot spam, Deploy 2

See, I go Gun 2, Deploy 2 right out of the gate. That gives me some serious health and guns that most others can not match right out of the gate.

Assault: Crit/Jump 2, Bomb 2, Charge 2, Bomb 3, Crit/Jump 3, Charge 3, Flight 2, Flight 3, turret/bot spam

I go Crit 2, Charge 2. I kill so many people with Charge, and use it to escape, that I upgrade that asap. After Charge 2, I do Charge 3 or Bomb 2, depends. Jump is always last... On many maps it is not useful...

Support: Turret 2, Hack 2, Artillery 2, Hack 3, Turret 3, Artillery 3, Bot Heal 2, Bot Heal 3, turret/bot spam

Have to go Turret 2/Hack 2 out of the gate, right? Gives you so much fire power at the start. Then I upgrade everything 2, usually, then hit Turret 3, then Hack 3 or Artie three, depending upon the situation and map.

Sniper: Sniper Rifle 2, Trap 2, Sniper Rifle 3, Trap 3, Grapple 2, Flak 2, Flak 3, Grapple 3, turret/bot spam

I never ever play a sniper. They are evil incarnate!

[Matt Perkins]

Balance issues I see with MNC:

Turrets are just too easy to kill when Juiced. I get that a level three 3 turret is a beast, especially when hacked...but it is not much of a beast if it costs $1050 and can be taken down for $400 (juice).

Support can not hack turrets fast enough. If I stay on top of it, I can keep about three turrets, including my own, hacked. Maybe it is just a preference thing, but since turrets are so easy to take out, I usually have two of them near each other hacked and my gun near them, so they protect each other a bit. Would be nice if I could hack a couple more to protect them and my base better...

[Alstein]

Juice is 500 or a good bit of effort, and some classes have a much easier time then others at taking down turrets- tanks and assassins do it best.

A Juiced tank will take down at least one turret every time, and can easily take down 2 if not slowed down.

On my tank order: it's a little different

It's usually

Tank 2, Charge 2, Deploy 2- Grenade 2 -Charge 3- Tank 3 situational, Grenade 3. I don't bother with Deploy 3, saving the money for juices/turrets more useful.

BTW Tank Deploy is for healing. Yeah tank is for close range. Your long range option is grenade to charge in or to nail someone being stupid, or railguns when getting close isn't smart.

[Matt Perkins]

Juice is 500 or a good bit of effort, and some classes have a much easier time then others at taking down turrets- tanks and assassins do it best.

Fair enough that it takes more effort for some than others...but what class cannot destroy at least one turret when Juiced?

A Juiced tank will take down at least one turret every time, and can easily take down 2 if not slowed down.

I have seen both Assassins and Tanks, along with Assault and Gunners, take down 3 turrets at different times. Maybe not always, but often enough.

So that is anywhere from 150 (level one rocket turret) to 3150 (three level three rocket turrets). Not counting the time required to buy and upgrade those turrets.


Just too easy for the cost level involved...

[Wade42]

I finally caved and bought the PC version during the weekend sale, despite already owning on XBLA. I found a QT3 MNC group and joined. Feel free to ping me on steam (or Live, even) if you want to play.

Turret Vunerability
As far as turret health goes, I'd rather they be a bit too weak than a bit too strong. This has a few different effects:
1) Turrets alone are not an adequate base defense.
2) Stalemates happen less often.
3) Distracting Juiced players becomes a high priority.

So that is anywhere from 150 (level one rocket turret) to 3150 (three level three rocket turrets). Not counting the time required to buy and upgrade those turrets.

This may simply mean that spending all of your money on base defense is not the best choice. If their bots can't get to your base, then what do you need turrets for, anyway?

I rarely upgrade base turrets. Upgraded turrets are nice, but they only help you not lose; other than that, they don't help you win. Then again, I'm not super awesome at the game, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt.

Tank Build Order:
My tank order is a bit different:
Tank: Product Grenade 2, Deploy 2, Product Grenade 3, Health 2, Charge 2, then bot/turret/upgrade/annihilate as needed...

As mentioned above, Deploy 2 is essential for the health regen.

I'm a fan of the Product Grenade (esp lvl 3). It's great for taking down turrets, large bot groups/Jackbot, and distracting juiced players.

Gunner Build Order:
Mortar/Gun 2, Mortar/Gun 3, and the rest is up for grabs. I finish some games at upgrade level 1/1/1/3, since I'm spending money on bots/turrets/annihilator/juice.

[Matt Perkins]

Turret Vunerability
As far as turret health goes, I'd rather they be a bit too weak than a bit too strong. This has a few different effects:
1) Turrets alone are not an adequate base defense.

No, they definitely are not, and they should not be on their own

2) Stalemates happen less often.

I see stalemates constantly. Overtime is more likely than not on most maps.

3) Distracting Juiced players becomes a high priority.

It is already a huge priority, turrets in the vacinity or not.

This may simply mean that spending all of your money on base defense is not the best choice. If their bots can't get to your base, then what do you need turrets for, anyway?

I rarely upgrade base turrets. Upgraded turrets are nice, but they only help you not lose; other than that, they don't help you win. Then again, I'm not super awesome at the game, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt.

Yeah, that was kind of my point. Turrets are not worth the money they cost currently. So many do not bother.

I am not saying we need to completely revamp, or even change regular damage. Just make it so they take say 50% less damage (number out of my butt, testing/balance would have occur) from Juiced players.

Currently, one player comes in and destroy all of the base defenses. One player. No need for team work or anything else, they either buy or get Juice and walk through all defense. That does not work for me.

[Matt Perkins]

Gunner Build Order:
Mortar/Gun 2, Mortar/Gun 3, and the rest is up for grabs. I finish some games at upgrade level 1/1/1/3, since I'm spending money on bots/turrets/annihilator/juice.

Oh, and I see why you never use Slam...because you never upgrade it! :P

I like all of the talk of differing play styles. I like that a lot about this game.

I shall be on tonight for at least a bit most likely. I am 'wzrd' on Steam.

[rossm]

I often feel bad for all the money I'm destroying as a gunner, because very little can stop me from easily wrecking the enemy's turrets on most maps. Especially if they don't have a sniper, as I can usually find a high wall to fly on top of and lob mortars to the other side of the map.

[Alstein]

Fair enough that it takes more effort for some than others...but what class cannot destroy at least one turret when Juiced?


I have seen both Assassins and Tanks, along with Assault and Gunners, take down 3 turrets at different times. Maybe not always, but often enough.

So that is anywhere from 150 (level one rocket turret) to 3150 (three level three rocket turrets). Not counting the time required to buy and upgrade those turrets.


Just too easy for the cost level involved...

A tank isn't going to take down 3 lvl 3 turrets. 1 lvl 3 yes. Pre-patch 2 if not bothered while doing it.

A tank can even be killed while juiced by 2 lvl 3's if grappled.

What the tank excels in is taking out lvl 1-2 turrets while not juiced or taking serious damage.

[Wade42]

I get what you're saying about turrets, I just don't find it that game-breaking. I've played games where we've been steamrolled by teams with no base defense. Our bots never made it through, so it didn't matter. It is frustrating when you're the turret monkey, though, yeah.

Oh, and I see why you never use Slam...because you never upgrade it! :P

I like all of the talk of differing play styles. I like that a lot about this game.

I shall be on tonight for at least a bit most likely. I am 'wzrd' on Steam.

I upgrade Slam far more often than Deploy or Grapple, but it's usually not a priority unless Assassins are a problem... I try to engage at medium/long range while playing Gunner. (Yeah, yeah, and Slam helps keep them at medium/long range. :) )

Agreed on the play styles (the talk and the game allowing them).

I often feel bad for all the money I'm destroying as a gunner, because very little can stop me from easily wrecking the enemy's turrets on most maps. Especially if they don't have a sniper, as I can usually find a high wall to fly on top of and lob mortars to the other side of the map.

Triple split mortar is so very effective. Playing gunner for me is like a combination of the TF2 Heavy and the Tribes Heavy... me likey.

[Wthermans]

My biggest problem with Turrets is that if your team doesn't have a Support and gets pushed back, it's a major PITA to keep them up. But I don't have a problem with that because if you're missing a support class, then your extra offensive class should mean that you never get pushed back.

I'm really enjoy the gameplay discussion. Exchanging opinions and ideas about how you play a class is always productive. Really allows me to examine how I play and see what I can implement.

[Matt Perkins]

Really like the lighting changes, very nice. The new balance changes seems pretty nifty too... Though I am barely keeping a 3 star rating now, so the rating system just be broken. :P

The new Bouncer strength is great. Makes for havoc. Just wish the other summoned bots were half as good as the Bouncer.

Did something change with turrets and are they lasting longer now? Seems like they are, but could just be wishful thinking and circumstances over the past couple of games too...


Thanks for all of the hardwork, Uber!

[Strato]

I was playing this on the weekend and I have to say that Support may now be my new favourite class to play. He really stood out when the LazeRazor map would roll around, and getting the firebase into the oppositions starting area. I'd do this cheese tactic everytime and it worked. It is too easy to hack the turret and keep it overhealed. If things heat up, retreat to the middle with the shotgun handy, and anyway who chases will be finding themselves in a cramped close quarter position. And of course, the other side rushes out, and the firebase mows them down.

I think it is SteelPeel arena that this tactic was applicable to. One tactic the team will do is camp the top ramp that overlooks the base. Getting a gunner up there with a mortar is dangerous as he will knock down all of the rocket turrets that the game builds from the start for the team. Of course, the airstrike ability then comes into its own - aim it below the ramp and it will strike anyone sitting on top, pretty much one hit kills that no one sees coming.

One arena I can not work out with the Support though is the SpunkyCola arena. It just doesn't seem to be support friendly. It certainly is assault friendly though. One life I reached the point of getting $150 just from reaching some insane bot streak. Finished that game with well over 150 bot kills. The assaults charge is really useful in zipping in and out of combat on that map.

[SamF7]

New trick I learned last night as gunner:

After a few maps it was obvious that two of the better players were teaming up together on each map. They were good. Due to balancing issues I was always on the "other" team and those two working together were making it tough.

On the two maps with bot-pathways that run linear right and left (don't remember the name), it suddenly occurred to me to spawn a bouncer right as I started walking down the lane from spawn!

What fun! I would run into the Bopsy-twins right at the beginning of the match, start exchanging fire, when in would come charging my Bouncer-Bot! It was an easy matter to simply follow Mr. Bouncer in and hose those two down with the mini while they were wrestling with Bouncer-Bob.

Sure, it costs $100 right out the gate, but man, what a fun way to start a match!

Another quick tip: Always taunt right at the beginning of each match. The first taunt is $50. Follow on taunts are only worth a couple of bucks, so only that first taunt is worth the delay.

SamF7

[Marcin]

Well, spurred by this thread I picked this up. I have just one question: WHY CAN'T I MOVE!?

*ahem*

Is this very lag dependent on performance? I can play single player maxed out fine, but when I join a server it's a slideshow. Not even exaggerating, I'm talking like 1 frame every 5 seconds. I lowered my options all the way down and it's still suffering.

Ideas?

[trivialthought]

Hey, I have this game, and I think it's great. I got one free 3-day pass with my purchase and I'd like to spread the buzz about the game.

[Matt Perkins]

Hey, I have this game, and I think it's great. I got one free 3-day pass with my purchase and I'd like to spread the buzz about the game.

The game is great, though I have been getting massive spikes in lag on my end, so I have not been playing as much.

What is really needs is more people. More maps and more DLC. /me tries to wait patiently. Fails!

[Strato]

I've put in about 50 hours now with Monday Night Combat and finally reached the point of getting bored with it. More maps probably won't do it for me though.

[Alstein]

It's at the I got nothing better to do stage, let's waste time stage. Kinda replaced TF2 for me. Will likely get replaced by the new Mount and Blade, unless an expansion comes.