I'm good at QTEs but they just ruin immersion for me. Having a big green "A" flash on the screen for a second is annoying.Originally Posted by MattKeil
Never bothered me. I prefer a less obtrusive way of displaying the requirements than, say, Shenmue, but I like keeping the player involved in what's happening, even during a sequence that would be impossible to make fully playable.
Hopefully Heavy Rain will be a good lesson in how to incorporate the QTE more transparently into gameplay.
It's just too hard to suspend disbelief even when it's possible to do so for, say, the rest of the combat system. If it doesn't bother you then should consider yourself lucky!
I don't really get what you're "suspending disbelief" at in terms of a game. It's not like wiggling an analog stick around and hammering the square button ever goes away. At no point do I believe I'm really Kratos whacking a guy with a sword, so what difference is a floating X button going to make?
Everything. To me, anyway.
Jeez, man, I qualified in my post exactly what you just said, and even pointed out that if it works for you then you're not as unfortunate as the rest of us that are bothered by it.
Human beings sometimes get hung up by things. The only question is why the developer thinks that is somehow taking it to the next level in gaming. You did mention one reason above, at least.
huh? It only shows console buttons if you have a 360 controller plugged in. Otherwise it shows some stupid, hard to decipher foot/hand icons.
That doesn't quite explain it. I'm seriously asking. I don't understand what you're talking about. What element of suspension of disbelief is it breaking? Do you forget you're playing a game until the button cue pops up?
I get the argument of "I don't want to press buttons to see the rest of the cutscene," even if I don't agree with it, but I haven't encountered this objection to QTEs before.
Actually, you do kind of forget the controller. It feels like the guy on screen is moving at your commands. In that sense, the character can become like an extension of your body. A QTE ruins that feeling. That's the kind of immersion Tim is talking about; or at least, it's the kind I feel. I have to think about the X button, or the shoulder button, when it's flashing on the screen. It feels artificial somehow. But once I get the hang of controls during normal game play, I'm not thinking about that part at all anymore.
I guess I just don't make that distinction. There's plenty of stuff on the average game screen to remind one that they're holding a controller and playing a game (lifebars, XP meters, minimaps, quest reminders, objective arrows, etc.). One more doesn't break the bank for me.
Hmm, not sure. I would have to think about it more, but then again I don't play many QTE games in the first place.
Ok that's UN textbook definition that I never heard of.I prefer common sense's and wiki's definition : ).
QTEs are too arbitrary and gamey. So "press now fast left, right, A and B"? Why? It's a totally random requeriment. I prefer parts of gameplay where pressing buttons makes sense, if i have to press a series of keys, it's because there is a enemy in front of me, in the game not in a pseudo cutscene, where every key input have a reason.
And Mattkeil, there are different degrees of gamingness, it's not everything the same. Ssome of the things you mention are supposed to represent a part of RL, like hit points or XP or a quest journal. (In fact some of them came up not because they were original concepts for a videogame, but from pen & paper rpg where they tried to simulate RL).
QTEs are a bad representation of reality.
Games aren't about reality. I still fail to see why hitting a button to spin like a tornado whipping blades around in a circle is an acceptable abstraction while hitting the same button when prompted to run up a cyclops' back is not.
Either way, your action on the controller is resulting in a behavior on the screen that in no way resembles pressing a button. I just don't see a reason to make a distinction.
I think people's problems with QTEs stem from unconscious vs. conscious interaction. Once you get used to a game's controls and interface, you unconsciously make use of them to gather information and control your character. Button prompting QTEs take control away from you and force your brain to consciously register what button it wants and then press it. It's not really any less gamey than most of the other elements, but it is jarring and forces you to recognize your controller rather than ignore it and focus on the game itself.
Good controls are basically a --transparent-- interface between human and machine. When i move, jump, dodge, punch, slash, etc in a videogame, i am not thinking "and now i press W to run, then D to go right, then i click lots of times the lmb to fire". Even i am really doing that, with my hands. I am really the protagonist, running, fighting, jumping and all the rest. My brain and my hands are in auto-mode, like all the complex stuff i can make with the fingers touching so many keys and buttons while playing a videogame are not really being done.
All this immersion is broken with QTEs. It's like returning back to Pacman and Space Invaders, where the game was really using the interface.
For me the difference with a QTE is two-fold. First is that I'm being told what to do like a dog. All choice is taken from me and the game is now Simon Says.
Second, and this always bothers me, is the changing camera angle for cinematic effect. I just don't personally dig this most of the time in games.
I have to confess that I don't know how some QTE sequences could be made fully playable, but I hope there is a better compromise out there waiting to be developed than the QTE. Like I said, I don't have the answer to this, so hopefully there are game designers out there considering this question rather than just accepting the QTE as the optimal solution.
The developers very specifically considering these issues would have to be Quantic Dream.
So would a fair assessment be that even though you're always a puppet when you're playing a game (or perhaps the puppeteer, although BioShock would disagree), QTEs force you anti-QTE'ers to see the strings, so to speak?
I would be more in Yoda's "No different, only different in your mind" camp on this one. I do think there are good ways (GoW) and bad ways (Wet) of implementing the mechanic, though.
In my opinion, QTEs could be helped in this "immersion" argument going on if the context of the button pressing was changed to something less distracting. PoP:The Two Thrones did this well... the dagger you were wielding would glow and the scene would slow down. It forced you to take the context of what's being shown to you into account and eventually you felt that you mastered a certain part of the gameplay by timing it well. It was fun, and was also never required to master in order to move ahead in the game.
Yeah, there are ways of using the mechanic that enhance rather than detract, which is one reason I get so tired of the blanket QTE hate thrown around every time anything resembling it is mentioned.
I can see why one would have a vehement desire to keep something as awful as Batman's grate opening or SoulCalibur III's randomized button QTE cutscenes out of a game they're looking forward to, though.
I think the switching from puppeteer to puppet is a good analogy. My most recent encounter with QTEs was Mercenaries 2. I could puppet my character however I wanted in a pretty open fashion until I needed to hijack the vehicle or beat the game. Suddenly I had no say in how things happened except to watch the same (or slight variation) cinematic sequence while responding to glaring, flashing commands on screen. Everything about those sequences seemed to spit in the face of how the rest of the game played.
Now, I honestly have never played the God of War series, which I've heard people say does QTE's well. I'm also curious to see how the world responds to Heavy Rain. I don't really have good examples in my play experience, just the more lazy ones, so I probably overreact when I see QTE. Personally, I hope Witcher 2 does it well if it's going to do it. Just restarted 1 after forgetting I bought the game on Impulse and I'm really digging it.
QTEs are to games what nags are to trialware, in my opinion. That stupid nag that pops up asking you to please buy winrar or whatever? QTEs are that. All they do is disrupt non-interactive bits of games. They don't offer any gameplay or anything else that might be fun, they're just nags pleading with you to oh purdy please push a button now, because the game is terribly insecure and wants to make sure you're still giving it your undivided attention. Or something.
The only place QTEs belong is in the dictionary, as an example of the word inane.
There are entire threads devoted to the QTE, btw.
We should be offering suggestions on how to ensure that TW2 has QTEs that do not suck.
I'm in the opposite camp. I'll turn off as much of the HUD as possible if a game has options for it and still stays playable.
But this mainly applies to a first person perspective. A top down RPG's viewpoint doesn't produce the same amount of "you are there" immersion.
That would be suggesting the impossible. Every QTE in existence has sucked, and it is nigh certain that every one to come will as well. The only solution? Extermination.
I'd like to kill QTE's with a QTE.
This is the knee-jerk dismissal I find tedious.
See, it's every QTE I've ever used that I find to be tedious.
I say we nuke the things from orbit. It's the only way to be sure :D
And I find not-flat-dismissal tedious. The problem is: how can you make a quick time event that doesn't suck, and isn't simply part of the gameplay?
It's pretty much the definition of a QTE that if it was worth playing, it wouldn't be a QTE.
I'm pretty convinced that it's an inherently unworkable concept. So instead of trying to think of ways to make tedious interruptions less tedious, why not just drop the interruptions and spend the time and energy developing something that's fun for the player?
Come on guys, there's more to the Witcher than just QTE's!
Because some of us do enjoy them, when they're done well. I hope all the QTE auto-haters stay the hell away from Heavy Rain so the threads on that game don't instantly degenerate into this bullshit.
These nonsensical immersion-breaking buttons prompts popping up out of the blue aka QTE's, are terrible dreck and need to be purged from existence.
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