Nah, Shane's done one way or the other at some point, I suspect. Things are going to come to a head with Rick, and someone will have to die. It won't be Rick (I predict).
Wow, that was a really great episode -- it fired on all the right cylinders.
Shane came across as too angry and thuggish, but his points were mostly valid, and I liked how the show went out of its way to show the conflict between his "survival at all costs" attitude and Hershel's aversion to taking any life... without really pointing the audience at the "correct" attitude.
The actor playing Hershel (Scott Wilson) did a really good job this episode, and perhaps he did a great job all season -- going from a friendly country gentleman to a vaguely creepy guy to a REALLY creepy pig-headed guy to this episode's reluctant convert. The scene where Maggie calls out Hershel's hypocrisy was good (Cohen as Maggie sold it well too), and Hershel's stricken look as Shane butchers his "charges" was nice.
Man, that ending was a satisfyingly brutal conclusion to a really great setup. I also loved watching Shane look like he was about to kill everything in his path as he stomped around the whole episode (especially when he goes after Dale and the guns). Count me in the "fuck you, Dale" camp. He really got on my nerves more than usual this episode. Seriously though, that was an hour of perfect television.
Well, we do have Daryl, already ... but my guess is they'll stick closer to the original on that one.
I'll assume that a character name from a years-old story isn't spoiler territory.
You mean Merle, right? Though I think both are out. I think you're getting The Governor (if he shows up in the series at all - in a show that desperately needs a consistent antagonist, I can't imagine that they wouldn't pull one of the biggest antagonists from the series, but they've already made serious departures, so they obviously aren't tied to the source material) as described in the Kirkman prose book that he just released, unless the people managing the show's broader presence are complete idiots. I would be entirely baffled if the brand managers allowed two completely different characterizations of the same critical character in realms where the normos actually involve themselves. Departing from the comic book is okay because that's, like, maybe 500,000 to 1,000,000 total weirdos in the entire world, and they're already smart enough to manage, like, Earth-One and Earth-Two and the Marveloids and the DCenites and time travel and there's two different Flashes what, but normos? Dangerous.
Actually, I meant we already had one entirely different character (Daryl, although of course Merle would be another), and therefore it's not hard to see further departures for those who were carried over.
If you are so spoilerphobic that an extremely vague explanation of why you don't need to worry about the comic book spoiling the show a lot any more because it is quickly becoming impossible, and also why they must be fundamentally different by definition, you should skip this whole thing, and I apologize for the interruption, and I won't talk about it any more, but this is why I think that nobody should really be worried about the book spoiling the show at this point.
Unless you're planning on reading the comics, I think we're getting well out of spoiler territory, so phobics can hopefully relax a little. They're quickly approaching the point True Blood is at, where knowing the source material is little more than an entertaining aside to see how things are different that in no way informs future events in the series (True Blood example: Jason IS a werepanther in the books, but he specifically is not in the show). I think that there are maybe a few key scenes they'll be replicating (one I've already noted, plus the end of the second hardcover, which I think is the close of issue 24, just because the framing on that shot begs for it to exist, and some stuff I haven't read yet because my hardcovers are currently lent out as I struggle to process all my media that I think they set up with the tool kit in the very first episode this season and I believe it's been roundly "spoiled" on any number of covers, though I could be wrong), but let's be clear. Optimistically, this show will run for six or seven seasons. Pessimistically, three. It's going to need to end, and the writing staff is going to want to end on a satisfying note. That right there guarantees you that the comic book doesn't spoil the actual show. Rather than getting closer to the comic book (which is unapologetically an ongoing story that's already got more years in it than the television show will ever have and Kirkman has said he's got no plans to conclude any time soon), it's only going to diverge further at this point. It has to if it's going to be good television.
It's different for something like Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones is trying to ape the book series, which itself has a definite ending. Somewhere in his mind, Martin knows how the story all turns out. The show won't be deviating in any significant way from that plan. You CAN spoil that show from the books if what they've done with it to date is any indication. I'll assure you that the same is not the case for The Walking Dead, which has already deviated from its source material in significant ways that crucially inform the plot and will necessarily have to continue to do so by virtue of the fact that this show will end.
Spoiler:explanation, which I guess I'll tag, though I'm explaining why I don't think it will really spoil anything
As for The Governor, he's an antagonist, but the fact that Kirkman wrote and published an entire prose book a little over a month ago about him leads me to believe that he won't show up at all under any of the names we would recognize, though perhaps elements of his character will show up in an antagonist in a later season. Even if he did show up, certain aspects of the character simply won't fly, even on AMC - specifically, all that raping.
Christ, Brian, wrap that shit in spoiler tags. You don't respond to a spoiler tag with that kind of specificity. If I talk comics in this thread, I use a condom. There wasn't much of a spoiler, but I think the whole rule system for this thread has been pretty good ever since someone dropped that one location from the comic that may or may not be found in the show.
And I'm not sure why people are complaining about Hershel. They've been pretty adamant this season as showing him to be ignorant of what walkers actually are.
Sure, ripped up flesh should ring alarm bells about how "alive" the zombies are, but he was still clinging onto a hope of some sort and his belief in God. For him, it was enough of a "just a disease" situation that his hope overrode rationality. Human sentimentality is a powerful motivator. Hershel still wants to feel a connection to these people even though they're not really alive. Most of the survivors do too, evidenced by their hesitance in the end of the scene.
The most poignant example for Hershel had to be made by Shane shooting the walker that he was leading. After the half-clip demonstration, you could see that Hershel was experiencing the reality of the situation for the first time. His transformation from ignorance is a process. I'm pretty sure the show's writers wanted viewers to think he was some sort of irrational idiot or insane man, but what they give us time to find out is that he is neither.
I have concluded that the best episodes in this series are the ones where zombie children die. Therefore, I demand zombie children in every episode henceforth.
I read all the books as they were/are published, and am loving the series as well even with the plot differences.
I agree this episode was fantastic, and was embarrassed for being surprised by Sophia.
Dale actually turned a corner for me with this episode from a likeable and well-meaning older fart to a potentially harmful, judgemental and meddling big, fat, stinky fart who isn't smart enough to keep some secrets to himself at least until in a situation where it is safe to reveal them. As much as I now dislike Shane (I was on the fence until Otis), I was slightly disappointed that Shane didn't give Dale a little bitch-slap after their confrontation with the guns. I wouldn't be surprised (and might actually cheer) if Andrea does this sometime soon as well.
I also thought it was extremely unwise of Lori to tell Shane that she is pregnant, thus giving Shane yet one more reason to find some way to eliminate Rick from the mix.
He did. Rick told Shane while he was initially huffing and puffing in front of the barn, at which point his entire outlook on life immediately changed and spun on a dime to go in the opposite direction.
I think he might not be in his altogether.
However, at the point that he told Shane, Rick already had verbal confirmation that Lori smashed the homie, so.......I'm not really sure what he hoped to achieve. Because I have absolutely no idea how much time has passed between the start of the series and now, but the shorter that time is, the more likely it is that Shane is the father, because this show follows normal rules of female human biology (as opposed to American Horror Story, wherein Rubberman fucks you so right that you know you're knocked up by the end of the episode).
He did. Rick told Shane while he was initially huffing and puffing in front of the barn, at which point his entire outlook on life immediately changed and spun on a dime to go in the opposite direction.
I think he might not be in his altogether.
However, at the point that he told Shane, Rick already had verbal confirmation that Lori smashed the homie, so.......I'm not really sure what he hoped to achieve. Because I have absolutely no idea how much time has passed between the start of the series and now, but the shorter that time is, the more likely it is that Shane is the father, because this show follows normal rules of female human biology (as opposed to American Horror Story, wherein Rubberman fucks you so right that you know you're knocked up by the end of the episode).
I saw Rick telling Shane about the pregnancy to deliberately throw him off his footing. Shane was winning the argument about leaving until Rick dropped that bomb, at which point Shane has to wonder "Is the baby mine? Does Rick know about me and Lori? Fuck."
I agree with him that this season has had some serious pacing issues, but think they served the mid-season finale well. The episode irritated me at the beginning because everyone's actions and reactions seemed dictated by a random number generator, but things really took off from the moment Shane found Dale in the swamp and I was riveted. I figured out the barn reveal, but that didn't detract from its impact (although the shots leading up to Rick gunning her down were gratuitously drawn out).
I didn't have the problems with Herschel that a lot of people here seem to have. I can see him doing what he did both from a denial angle and one of hope. If you expose a devout Christian to a seemingly inexplicable apocalyptic scenario like that, what's to stop them from thinking that maybe JC himself will come cure the zombies, or that you'll be judged harshly for turning your backs on them? Plus, I'm all for weird character quirks that add to dramatic tension, and this definitely succeeded in that regard.
One of the things I like most about this show is that I hate the characters who are nearly always right. Shane and Dale have become virtually unwatchable, so it's weird to find myself agreeing with them most of the time. That last episode had the best examples, with Shane shooting the bejeesus out of that zombie in front of Herschel, and Dale telling Andrea to stay the hell away from Shane. I was simultaneously nodding and wanting to kick them in the nuts.
I loved the nihilism of this season. This is pretty much the perfect zombie show for me. That link above seems to say they're putting in a new producer or showrunner or something - horrible.
One of the things I like most about this show is that I hate the characters who are nearly always right.
Greenwald comments on that as well, and I mentioned it upthread awhile back. TWD is an interesting commentary on how our opinions of the messenger influence our reception of the message. When truth is spoken by a source we're predisposed to dislike, we are predisposed to ignore or deny said truth.
I've enjoyed most of this show up to now and felt that the last episode was a worthy pay-off for the stuff that's been happening over the course of the previous two. I liked that parallels were drawn between Rick and Herschel with regard to tenuous hope. The lingering shots of Rick stepping up to deal with Sophia were perfect in the context of the previous 45 minutes: for all Shane's bluster about doing what had to be done, when it really came down it he couldn't do what had to be done. Rick might be clinging to a sense of propriety and honour that doesn't fit the world that they find themselves in but when push comes to shove, he's the one that does the really hard stuff.
Of course, Herschel agreeing to let Rick's people stay on the basis that they obey his rules means that Shane's blow-out and decision to take matters into his own hands was rash and foolhardy and probably makes it impossible for them to stay now.
ETA: this and 'Game of Thrones' seem to be the only shows I watch that are willing to kill off characters that you don't expect to see killed off or to off them in unexpected ways. Walking Dead also seems to be willing to leave things unresolved (Merle). Thus, I wasn't anticipating Sophia being in the barn until the moment where it was revealed that there was still a walker in there, so it was an awesome feeling (in both the modern and traditional senses of 'awesome') when her fate was finally revealed - especially with her mother being right there to witness it.
I may be the only one who feels this way, and I need to watch that last episode again, but I did not get the impression Rick was the only one who could handle doing what needed to be done.
My impression was that the others were relaxed, since it was clear they had wiped them all out. It was a cathartic moment. Next, one final problem is left to be dealt with, and it posed NO threat whatsoever. There was absolutely no need at that point for anyone to step up, unlike during the previous OK corral scene. Their enemy would need to run an obstacle course to get anywhere near them, an enemy unable to run much at all even on clear ground. Finally, there was the utter shock they were dealing with.
I bet even Shane was thinking "I knew I was right but damn, this sucks zombie balls!"
Rick, on the other hand, had a whole other motivation. He was the enemy fraternizer, who everyone expected to hash out a 'no zombies in the barn' deal with Herschel and next thing his people see, Rick is bringing MOAR zombies with Herschel! Dude needed to save face and do it ASAP. What better way than a coup de grace before Shane can steal all the credit?
Dude needed to save face and do it ASAP. What better way than a coup de grace before Shane can steal all the credit?
Because he has consistently demonstrated that saving face is a big part of his character?
The scene was staged so that there really wasn't all that much danger, throughout. It wasn't a pitched battle. Anyone who stepped up (e.g., Glenn) was doing it primarily out of obligation, not a sense of danger and urgency.
I think you reading the scene in a very unorthodox way.
Call me unorthodox, then, because I saw it the same way gameoverman did. I saw Rick's shooting of Sophia as his way of reasserting himself as the leader, not because no one else would do it.
It's hard to say if anyone else would have done it. I don't think whether they were in danger or not is that important. It was a kid, the kid's mother was right there, and it was a member of their group. Shane or the others can talk all they want about doing what needs to be done if someone gets bit, but it's just a lot of talk until the situation actually presents itself.
Apart from Rick and Carole, they're all standing there staring at Sophia like slack-jawed idiots. Any one of them could have put her down - and maybe would they would have - but the point is that Rick is the one who displays the resolve to do it first. I don't think it's about saving face for Rick, largely because he's written as the kind of person who never feels the need to save face. Protagonists rarely do; antagonists - Shane - do.
Reply With Quote
Originally Posted by balut
