Guild Wars 2?

[Derbain]

Unless I'm missing something, "Shake It Off" only removes a single condition not all of them. It's still an awesome skill though.

[Stridergg]

How do you guys get your crit chance so high? I've got it up to around 35% with 30 into the precision trait line, but that isn't too high. It works alright because of how fast the thief attacks, but more is better!

One more question on sigils for dual weapons: if I have 2 pistols each with the sigil that gives 60% chance for bleed on crit, does that mean I have a 100% chance to bleed, or each weapons skills have a 60% to crit? If that makes sense. I don't Particularly want to buy the expensive runes without knowing beforehand :/

At lvl 80, you can get over 800 stat points (for any single stat) with gear alone. This is how people get over 50% crit chance.

And yes, each weapon's skills will have 60% chance of bleed. Skills from the main hand will have their 60% and skills from the off hand will have their 60%. BTW the same applies to the damage - skills performed by the off hand weapon will take that weapon's base damage (and not the main hand weapon) to calculate the final numbers.

As for Toughness vs Vitality, I still haven't seen the formula for damage reduction provided by Toughness/Armor. Without it, we can't say if Toughness is really better than Vitality even for direct damage. Theoretically, it should be (due to more effective healing, btw it'd be interesting to buff Healing Power through gear together with Toughness) but it all depends on numbers.

[Seneca]

The official forums are now open for business:

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum

[Hanacker]

The WvW areas have the same kind of events. Apparently PvP can work there.

Yeah, because there are set teams. Complete FFA PvP would be much more chaotic.

[Jag]

At lvl 80, you can get over 800 stat points (for any single stat) with gear alone. This is how people get over 50% crit chance.

What are the stats based on, 1000? I'm trying to figure out what crit % I have with my 571 precision at 33.

[Kyle700]

At lvl 80, you can get over 800 stat points (for any single stat) with gear alone. This is how people get over 50% crit chance.

And yes, each weapon's skills will have 60% chance of bleed. Skills from the main hand will have their 60% and skills from the off hand will have their 60%. BTW the same applies to the damage - skills performed by the off hand weapon will take that weapon's base damage (and not the main hand weapon) to calculate the final numbers.

As for Toughness vs Vitality, I still haven't seen the formula for damage reduction provided by Toughness/Armor. Without it, we can't say if Toughness is really better than Vitality even for direct damage. Theoretically, it should be (due to more effective healing, btw it'd be interesting to buff Healing Power through gear together with Toughness) but it all depends on numbers.

So, maybe that would mean it would be better to have the main pistol with the 60% chance, and another with a passive bonus to crit chance or damage? Or does even the passive bonus only apply to the second weapon? It seems strange that they would do it like this, because for the pistol / pistol build, you hardly every use an attack with the offhand pistol. Heck, you only have 1 attack, and it doesn't do high damage! Gunna have to go look for a good sigil then...

[Fishbreath]

(0.0025 × Level^2) + (0.05 × Level) + 1

(http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precision)

[Reldan]

Yeah, because there are set teams. Complete FFA PvP would be much more chaotic.

Not just set, but tightly population controlled as well and with a controlled set of incentives/punishment for killing and dying that at least focuses zergs on tackling keeps and not just gank-squadding in continuous loops around the zone.

[Nephrinn]

If anyone is interested in the math and builds behind the different professions, check out Buildcast on gamebreaker.tv. They breakdown a single profession in detail every week (with the exception of last week which was on WvW). Pretty good stuff. :)

[Daagar]

The official forums are now open for business:

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum

I'm so accustomed to forums like here that the stark black-on-white just seems to burn my eyes out. The font I don't think is helping. I wonder if others are as OCD about forum themes as I am (I also use Vim as an editor because of its theme support... pretty > *. No wonder I like GW2...)

[Aeek]

There are 4 zones for levels 15-25, just pick one you are not likely to visit with your alt(s) any time soon and off you go! :)

Wouldn't worry that much. My Human Theif had been running around the Norn 1-15 area just before I started a Norn Mesmer. Most of it feels very different, what doesn't is quick and often still fun so soon again.

Mesmer is insane :) 3 clones right from the start, I get lost in the me's. Hanging out for the L7 weapon swap so I can Staff my clones.

[RichVR]

Just a quick note, in case it helps anyone with crash issues. I was still getting crashes when transitioning between areas. I finally installed the new nVidia beta drivers. As well I had the frame limiter on 'unlimited'. It showed something like 90-100 FPS in some areas. I changed it to 30 FPS and I haven't had a crash since. I was going to try 60 FPS but honestly, I'm having fun playing the game and why mess with something that works? I'm not seeing any problem with gameplay and it still looks lovely.

GTX 470 and i7 930 @ 2.8Ghz.

[Murbella]

This was almost exactly my discovery as well.

From 1-80, my glass cannon, always-doing-crits for high damage rifle warrior build was just fine...but for both PVP and for dungeon content, it was getting me smoked like a salmon. I just couldn't do the kind of damage necessary to make the build work.

Having sacrificed some precision and crit % for Toughness has made a huge difference. Yesterday I was out farming mining/logging materials, and it occasionally brought me into contact with Veteran-rated mobs. I can now simply stand toe-to-toe with these mobs and melee them with my axe and not sweat it.

How did your rifle warrior work out?

I was thinking of making one myself since i like the idea of a heavily armored gun user.

[Kyle700]

Just a quick note, in case it helps anyone with crash issues. I was still getting crashes when transitioning between areas. I finally installed the new nVidia beta drivers. As well I had the frame limiter on 'unlimited'. It showed something like 90-100 FPS in some areas. I changed it to 30 FPS and I haven't had a crash since. I was going to try 60 FPS but honestly, I'm having fun playing the game and why mess with something that works? I'm not seeing any problem with gameplay and it still looks lovely.

GTX 470 and i7 930 @ 2.8Ghz.

Iive tried updating to those twice now and each time, my old drivers get erased and the beta drivers fail to install :(. I get crashes almost twice a day :/

[Mark Asher]

Yeah, because there are set teams. Complete FFA PvP would be much more chaotic.

Not sure about that. It looks like events reward players for their participation, so if you participate for awhile but then get ganked, you should still get a reward. It wouldn't be any different than doing an event and getting killed by the monster and getting whatever reward was your due.

I'm not saying a PvP server would be easy to do, but the idea that because events are cooperative a PvP server would be hard doesn't jibe with what I've observed.

What I think would happen with a PvP server if it was set up so that killing another player gave a good XP reward and generated some kind of drop not taken from the killed player's inventory is that players would focus on the PvP and ignore a lot of the events. The events are just XP and coin generators. There's no need to do them if you're getting the same from killing other players.

The story events are instanced so they'd work fine on a PvP server.

[Mark Asher]

Actually, the more I think about it the more I think this game could pull off a full PvP server better than a lot of MMOs. Think about it:

- there's no real stealth, so no invisible players other than for a couple of seconds, something of a bugaboo in PvP MMOs

- there's no trinity, so every player has a shot at some kind of self-heal and has adequate DPS

- there's no monster tagging or needing to group to participate in an event, so players can jump in, do a tiny bit of damage, and get completion credit even if they are ganked

Why wouldn't it work? Exploration XP would work and would be even more interesting since there's the chance of intelligent monsters (players) trying to kill you. Gathering XP would work and since the resource wouldn't disappear there's even less of a reason to attack another player over a node. And as far as crafting goes, you could make the cities a safe, non-PvP zone.

So what am I missing? The PvE in GW2 seems designed for single players and doesn't require grouping and rewards players even if they die before an event is finished. Why wouldn't PvP work in this environment?

[triggercut]

How did your rifle warrior work out?

I was thinking of making one myself since i like the idea of a heavily armored gun user.

I love the build. The main theorycraft behind the build is PVP, but I (obviously) had zero trouble using it to zip through levels to 80. One thing--I was an absolute glass cannon until I hit 80 and started to do some serious playing with the TP and farming of materials to build some cash up. Once I was able to get some decent armor on the TP and get those Superior Soldier Runes in, I now have incredible survivability, and don't feel like I've sacrificed much of anything in terms of damage output.

[Chris Gardiner]

I love the build. The main theorycraft behind the build is PVP, but I (obviously) had zero trouble using it to zip through levels to 80. One thing--I was an absolute glass cannon until I hit 80 and started to do some serious playing with the TP and farming of materials to build some cash up. Once I was able to get some decent armor on the TP and get those Superior Soldier Runes in, I now have incredible survivability, and don't feel like I've sacrificed much of anything in terms of damage output.

What do you use as a secondary weapon set? And do you resort to it often?

I'm nowhere near as far through as you guys, but even at my level Toughness/Vitality seem crazy good. I respecced from a Condition Damage trait build to defence, and even with just ten trait points my survivability went through the roof.

[Stridergg]

So, maybe that would mean it would be better to have the main pistol with the 60% chance, and another with a passive bonus to crit chance or damage? Or does even the passive bonus only apply to the second weapon? It seems strange that they would do it like this, because for the pistol / pistol build, you hardly every use an attack with the offhand pistol. Heck, you only have 1 attack, and it doesn't do high damage! Gunna have to go look for a good sigil then...

All +stats bonuses on both weapons (main and off hand) apply to your character as a whole. So all the +power, +critical chance, +critical damage, etc. stuff gets applied from both main and off hand weapons and affect your final stats.

All stats you see on your "H" screen (you need to mouse over the numbers to see more stats "under the hood") apply to all of your attack with any weapon. One exception is Luck (aka +magic find%), which is not displayed anywhere, which is weird.

Note, however, that only bonuses from the weapon(s) you are currently wielding contribute to your stats, so if you have a greatsword on atm and you have a longbow as a secondary, only your greatsword contributes to your stats. Once you switch from the greatsword to the longbow, then the greatsword stops contributing and the longbow starts.

It is my understanding that other stuff (what you usually get from weapon sigils) apply to the attacks made with that specific weapon. Stuff like 60% to bleed the target.

[Jag]

If anyone wants some Lore for the game, read Edge of Destiny, the book that came out before GW2. It's a video game novel, so not actually that great, but it does introduce you to the events, locations and characters in the game which actually made seeing them in game a bit more enjoyable.

[Stridergg]

So what am I missing? The PvE in GW2 seems designed for single players and doesn't require grouping and rewards players even if they die before an event is finished. Why wouldn't PvP work in this environment?

This is just stupid. It's been said multiple times that most fighting abilities in GW2 are either cone or AoE and affect all "non friendly" targets in the area. Which in FFA PvP environment would be everybody.

Melee combat won't work because when killing your enemy with a greatsword you will be also killing your allies around the target.

Ranged combat won't work because when shooting at your enemy you will also be hitting your allies either through AoE or if they get in the way.

Buffing won't work because you will be buffing your enemies. ([edit] Actually, since everyone is an enemy in an FFA environment, you won't be buffing anyone except you, so all support, healing and crowd control skills are out of the window. Hehe, it would be funny to put up a Wall of Reflection and make both your and enemy teams kill themselves with ranged attacks)

Conditions won't work because you will be applying them to your allies.

Condition removal won't work because you will be removing conditions from both allies and enemies. ([edit] Same as support)

Fields won't work. Stuff like mesmer's teleport or group stealthing won't work. Reviving won't work. Siege equipment won't work.

So very basic stuff won't work in FFA environment and will require major redesign. That's why it's a stupid idea and maybe we should stop talking about it because it's not going to happen. Or create a separate thread for it and see for yourself how many people will be attracted to the idea.

[Reldan]

So what am I missing? The PvE in GW2 seems designed for single players and doesn't require grouping and rewards players even if they die before an event is finished. Why wouldn't PvP work in this environment?

Here's just a few issues:

-What determines which players can damage which other players? Do you leave that up to the players themselves to decide? If so, how does that not devolve into gank squads roaming the zones and camping waypoints and zone-in spots making it impossible to be a single player just playing the game.

-If players always damage each other, that sure sucks to be a melee player when a large number of events and attacks are geared around AoE.

-Who would ever revive anyone else in this model? What does that do to the balance of the game?

Basically it boils back down to a question of how do you bring about the promise of UO and avoid the reality of what UO turned into, especially in our modern age where griefing, exploitation, and the general breaking of game systems for lulz has become an officially accepted playstyle.

Please believe me that I totally get and want what you're talking about. However, seeing what becomes of such designs once they get into the hands of the players has firmly disabused me of the notion that such gameplay works. The dream is that you're in this dynamic world doing your thing and over the ridge comes another player, and now you've got to make a fight/flee decision and it's very dynamic and exciting. The reality is that someone finds a way to stack stealth for 10-15s, and you end up getting stunned without even seeing anything, and then 10 dudes gangbang you and you never had a chance to act. Most likely they don't even finish you, they just watch you bleed out while teabagging you, dancing on your body, and making crude comments about how much you suck. They want you to revive yourself, because it's funnier that way to keep killing you. It prolongs their entertainment. And then you respawn and another 5 dudes are waiting to gangbang you while you load back in.

I think the missing key is that you assume that players need a reason to grief other players.

[skyride]

The reality is that someone finds a way to stack stealth for 10-15s, and you end up getting stunned without even seeing anything, and then 10 dudes gangbang you and you never had a chance to act. Most likely they don't even finish you, they just watch you bleed out while teabagging you, dancing on your body, and making crude comments about how much you suck. They want you to revive yourself, because it's funnier that way to keep killing you. It prolongs their entertainment. And then you respawn and another 5 dudes are waiting to gangbang you while you load back in.

Are you saying it can't work in any game? I guess you never played Shadowbane? It's a fine example of how a player policed game can work. I haven't played EVE much but I think I read that it works pretty well in that game as well and I'm sure there are other examples.

Anyway I'm not saying you can "hack" it into GW2 but it seems this extreme attitude against FFA is mostly by people who haven't seen it work well in a game.

[hepcat]

Are you saying it can't work in any game? I guess you never played Shadowbane? It's a fine example of how a player policed game can work.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I played a lot of Shadowbane and I distinctly remember it became ridiculously difficult to even walk outside safe zone cities at later levels. Groups of griefers would just wait outside city walls and attack any and all who ventured outside. I quit shortly after realizing this wasn't going to change anytime soon.

[Fishbreath]

The thing about Shadowbane was that it absolutely wasn't a solo game. I had great fun sticking with a guild and knocking heads over mines and prime powerleveling spots. I expect that level of organization was something that happened pretty late in its lifetime.

[Reldan]

Are you saying it can't work in any game? I guess you never played Shadowbane? It's a fine example of how a player policed game can work. I haven't played EVE much but I think I read that it works pretty well in that game as well and I'm sure there are other examples.

I played Shadowbane. Actually was an officer in a small guild in that game - we had our own city and blah-de-dah.

Perhaps my recollection differs from yours, but it was suicide in that game to wander alone pretty much anywhere outside of protected areas or cities your guild was allied with. It was suicide to not be in a guild that had strong alliances with the other guilds in the area.

Eventually our server devolved into two megaguilds that had to negotiate having wars with each other to give players something to do.

This was before there would have been a GOON guild that wouldn't have allied with anyone else and would have had the numbers to grief the living shit out of everybody else, and it still wasn't the picturesque experience being presented as the "wouldn't it be cool if..." here.

[triggercut]

What do you use as a secondary weapon set? And do you resort to it often?

I'm nowhere near as far through as you guys, but even at my level Toughness/Vitality seem crazy good. I respecced from a Condition Damage trait build to defence, and even with just ten trait points my survivability went through the roof.

Right now I still use Axe/Horn for the PVP utility (the sprint with the horn ability combined with the sprint off the Signet Of Rage means that if timed correctly I'm moving at great speed for all but 10 seconds of every minute or so), as well as how good the axe is for burning down enemy NPCs especially at close range once they are totally debuffed.

[Mark Asher]

I played Shadowbane. Actually was an officer in a small guild in that game - we had our own city and blah-de-dah.

Perhaps my recollection differs from yours, but it was suicide in that game to wander alone pretty much anywhere outside of protected areas or cities your guild was allied with. It was suicide to not be in a guild that had strong alliances with the other guilds in the area.

Eventually our server devolved into two megaguilds that had to negotiate having wars with each other to give players something to do.

This was before there would have been a GOON guild that wouldn't have allied with anyone else and would have had the numbers to grief the living shit out of everybody else, and it still wasn't the picturesque experience being presented as the "wouldn't it be cool if..." here.

I played it for quite some time and I wouldn't say it was suicide to go out in the world. There were people who would fight you, sure, but there was more open world than gankers. But it may have been different on your server. That was the thing about the game -- each server was unique. You could roll on a different server and there would be different player cities in different locations and different guilds fighting one another.

Besides, I played Shadowbane to fight other players. There wasn't a lot of reason to be out roaming around otherwise. You leveled quickly and once leveled PvE didn't matter other than in trying to collect the runes or whatever they were called.

[Mark Asher]

This is just stupid. It's been said multiple times that most fighting abilities in GW2 are either cone or AoE and affect all "non friendly" targets in the area. Which in FFA PvP environment would be everybody.

Melee combat won't work because when killing your enemy with a greatsword you will be also killing your allies around the target.

Ranged combat won't work because when shooting at your enemy you will also be hitting your allies either through AoE or if they get in the way.

Buffing won't work because you will be buffing your enemies. ([edit] Actually, since everyone is an enemy in an FFA environment, you won't be buffing anyone except you, so all support, healing and crowd control skills are out of the window. Hehe, it would be funny to put up a Wall of Reflection and make both your and enemy teams kill themselves with ranged attacks)

Conditions won't work because you will be applying them to your allies.

Condition removal won't work because you will be removing conditions from both allies and enemies. ([edit] Same as support)

Fields won't work. Stuff like mesmer's teleport or group stealthing won't work. Reviving won't work. Siege equipment won't work.

So very basic stuff won't work in FFA environment and will require major redesign. That's why it's a stupid idea and maybe we should stop talking about it because it's not going to happen. Or create a separate thread for it and see for yourself how many people will be attracted to the idea.

Yeah, I hadn't thought about all that stuff. Swords and the like are weird. It's like the players have arms that are 20 feet long when they swing them.

Well, you could have faction based PvP in the PvE world. That would be a significant redesign too.

As to how many players would like something like that the PvP servers in WoW seem popular enough.

[Razgon]

There is, of course, a working Shadowbane emulator being worked on. I'm unsure about the legality of it, but I remember the game itself being sold by Ubisoft to one of the lead developers back in the day, after which it closed down about a year later.