Honduras, everything on the line

[Juan Rayo]

Hey guys. Was doing exactly as Talisker said as fatigue finally caught up with me and I collapsed last night slept well over 12 hours, and now feel a bit guilty.

Things have "settled" into some kind of routine here. On the mornings we participate in demonstrations all over the country. Then I come back to gather information (thanks Charles for that stuff you found for me) and write.

Of course I also have to do my work (the one that pays!) and at nights we have some small groups meeting to try and plan ahead.

Amazing how a country can go into "normal" mode in the conditions we are atm. Also, negotiations between Zelaya and Micheletti start today in Costa Rica.

Edit: wow that thread on the whole "Fox and racial purity thing" made me google "Swedish bikini team". I can feel my energy coming back already!

[Tim James]

Amazing how a country can go into "normal" mode in the conditions we are atm.

I think at the end of the day, human beings just want to be left alone and get on with their lives without devoting them to endless political power struggles. Normally it's probably a positive coping mechanism to keep us all from going crazy, but can be dangerous in the long run if everyone ignores a critical turning point.

[balut]

Edit: wow that thread on the whole "Fox and racial purity thing" made me google "Swedish bikini team". I can feel my energy coming back already!

LOL just doing my part to help!

[RyanMichael]

wow that thread on the whole "Fox and racial purity thing" made me google "Swedish bikini team". I can feel my energy coming back already!

Swedish bikini team...fomenting revolution since...whenever.

[Mr_PeaCH]

So good to know you're safe, JR.

(I just figured you'd gone to find some place with reliable power and television to watch Honduras play the U.S. in Gold Cup.)

[Houngan]

For those of you that can watch broadcast news, have the conservatives framed this as "Obama supporting radical leftists" yet?

H.

[RyanMichael]

For those of you that can watch broadcast news, have the conservatives framed this as "Obama supporting radical leftists" yet?

H.

Yes. Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh have both been talking about how the military coup saved Hondurans from Chavez, I KID YOU NOT.

[Cubit]

Democracy Now actually got a chance to briefly interview Zelaya before he left Washington DC. Watch it here:

http://www.democracynow.org/

Good stuff.

[Juan Rayo]

The guy who died is Isis Obed Murillo Mencia. His father is Jose David Murillo Sanchez. TODAY:

Father went to police to give testimony as witness of his son's death. He then went to a human rights organization (COFADEH) to do the same.

When he left the offices of COFADEH, at the center of Tegucigalpa, he was intercepted, according to witnesses, by 3 CIVILIAN CLOTHED POLICE, who then put him in a white pick up truck and carried him away.

We just located the prison he is held in. Police says they have "charges against him, 2 years old, for "disturbing the peace" as a member of a enviromental organization back in his town.

They were clearly following him and are trying to scare him. Sons of bitches killed his son on sunday for crying out loud.

[frank austin]

So.

How heavily guarded is that prison, anyway?

[Malathor]

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,1570598.story

[Tom Chick]

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,1570598.story

Good summary, Malathor, but I'm pretty sure this was discussed upthread. And, as Estrada notes in his editorial, the process broke down when the military stepped in:

Rather than taking Zelaya to jail and then to court to face charges, the military shipped him off to Costa Rica. No one has yet explained persuasively why summarily sending Zelaya into exile in this manner was legal, and it most likely wasn't.

This would be tantamount to the Texas National Guard putting Al Gore on a bus to Mexico before the Supreme Court had decided the 2000 Presidential election dispute. Although in the case of Honduras, it's even worse. They have a bloody storied tradition in Central America of the military running roughshod over their political processes, often resulting in years of right wing dictators running the show.

-Tom

[Mordrak]

Didn't Juan say that those (the legal process they are presenting, not the Zelaya's voting shenanigans) came as after the fact justifications?

[AaronSofaer]

Yeah, and that the judges involved had explicitly denied giving any such order.

Oh, and the whole thing about the government shooting peaceful protesters doesn't help either, eh?

[Anti-Bunny]

This would be tantamount to the Texas National Guard putting Al Gore on a bus to Mexico before the Supreme Court had decided the 2000 Presidential election dispute. Although in the case of Honduras, it's even worse. They have a bloody storied tradition in Central America of the military running roughshod over their political processes, often resulting in years of right wing dictators running the show.

They chose to exile him in the theory that that would be less inflammatory and likely to cause violence than throwing him in jail. Obviously that turned out wrong, but there you go.

Also, your analogy is totally wrong. Al Gore didn't break any laws. A better American analogy would be if the Secret Service or DC Police put Nixon on a plane and flew him out of the country instead of throwing him in jail after he had been impeached and refused to leave office.

The basic split comes down to this.

1) Honduras isn't America. There is no posse commitatus act there. In fact, Article 272 of their constitution explicitly says that the military has a law enforcement role with regards to election, constitutional crises, and ensuring the alternation of the presidency.. So it's not a violation of either Honduran law or the Honduran constitution for the military to enforce its provisions, because they are specifically tasked to do so.

2) As per Article 239, the moment he publicly suggested altering the constitution in violation of several other articles, he ceased to be president. Period. The people who say "he should've been tried/impeached/etc" haven't read the constitution. There is no provision for impeachment in the constitution, it just says in article 239 that anyone who suggests reforming certain clauses "shall cease in their duties" (be removed from office) immediately. And as I said Article 272 charges the military with enforcing those provisions. So, technically speaking they should've just removed him from his office and detained him, not taking the further step of kicking him out.

Now, one possible argument you could make is that because there's no provision for formal impeachment, A Honduran president can't be impeached, and therefore Article 239 is unenforceable. However, that assumes something like the Fifth Amendment, which again, Honduras doesn't have. Their due process protections are more limited, and specifically do not apply to people who attempt or propose/support an attempt to alter certain provisions of the constitution. (Article 42, Section 5)

[Houngan]

I thought they took him out of the country because the only way to get rid of a sitting president was in absentia. Not so?

H.

[Anti-Bunny]

I thought they took him out of the country because the only way to get rid of a sitting president was in absentia. Not so?

Nope. His actions were voted unconstitutional by the Supreme Court AND by Congress multiple times BEFORE he was removed. Then, one supreme court judge ordered the military, per Articles 239 and 272 to remove him from office.

The only thing that was done without authorization from the proper authorities was sending him out of the country. They were ordered to arrest and detain him, not exile him, they did that on their own initiative.

[quatoria]

Bunny, from the comments previously made in the thread, and Juan's own comments, it sounds like you've got the timeline exactly backwards - the military removed him, and then it found a judge to say that he'd issued an order to do it, which was then revealed as a lie.

[Tom Chick]

Also, your analogy is totally wrong.

No, my analogy is an analogy. Apparently you're unfamiliar with the concept, but I can assure you it was not intended as a 1:1 mirror image of the events in Honduras.

Regardless of your persnickety umbrage, the point remains: the military interfered with a Constitutional dispute, and thereby short circuited* the entire process.

-Tom

* This is a metaphor and not an implication that the Honduran government is an electrical grid.

[Anti-Bunny]

Bunny, from the comments previously made in the thread, and Juan's own comments, it sounds like you've got the timeline exactly backwards - the military removed him, and then it found a judge to say that he'd issued an order to do it, which was then revealed as a lie.

So, the entire congress, the entire military leadership and the entire supreme court are all lying together?

He wasn't voted removed by congress until after he was removed. But that vote wasn't necessary for his removal (again, read the constitution).

The documents were not falsified. Saying "revealed as a lie" implies that there is some objective proof. (Here they are, btw:
http://www.libertaddigital.com/docum...-17057381.html
http://www.libertaddigital.com/docum...-17027313.html )
If there is Information that "reveals that these are lies" (in contrast to, as I said, the combined testimony of the entire congress and entire supreme court), you need to prove that. Zelaya saying that his letter of resignation that was presented to congress was faked, and that he never signed that, that is true. But that's not proof or even evidence of anything except just that.

the military interfered with a Constitutional dispute, and thereby short circuited the entire process.

No, Tom. Just.. No.

[Anti-Bunny]

Regardless of your persnickety umbrage, the point remains: the military interfered with a Constitutional dispute, and thereby short circuited* the entire process.

Against my better judgment, I am going to give you an actual reply to this.

Can you cite, by article, the provision or provisions of the constitution violated by the removal of Zelaya from office (NOT from the country) by the military acting under supreme court order per articles 42, 238, 239, 272, 373, and 374 and the provision or provisions broken by having Micheletti succeed him in the office per article 244?

Otherwise, I'm not interested in hearing your bad analogies and metaphors.

[Kalle]

the military acting under supreme court order...

Juan would disagree with that interpretation.

[Johan O]

Against my better judgment, I am going to give you an actual reply to this.

Can you cite, by article, the provision or provisions of the constitution violated by the removal of Zelaya from office (NOT from the country) by the military acting under supreme court order per articles 42, 238, 239, 272, 373, and 374 and the provision or provisions broken by having Micheletti succeed him in the office per article 244?

Otherwise, I'm not interested in hearing your bad analogies and metaphors.

Have you read some 400 articles of the honduran constitution? If not, to whom do you owe your interpretation?

[Anti-Bunny]

Juan would disagree with that interpretation.

I have no idea what the fuck that is.

The order I showed you was from the Supreme Court, and this "Judge Zelaya" isn't on it.

Edit: My bad. I see. The letter says "I did not order Zelaya arrested". Well, that's correct. he didn't. The supreme court did, signed by Jose Tomas Arita Valle. As in, the president of the supreme court. Not by this administrative judge Jorge Zelaya.
http://www.libertaddigital.com/docum...-17027313.html
http://www.libertaddigital.com/docum...-17057381.html

As you can see, Jorge Zalaya did not order the arrest of the president, the Supreme court did (and the attorney general).

[Anti-Bunny]

Have you read some 400 articles of the honduran constitution?

Yep. 378. Most of them are just a few sentences long.

[Tankero]

Correct. Judge Zelaya declared that the original referendum was illegal. That referendum was not to convene a constitutional assembly, thought. It was supposed to ask whether or not a fourth question should be added to the 2009 general vote, inquiring whether a constitutional assembly should be convened.

So, it was still two steps removed from him changing the constitution, and one step removed from him actually convening a constitutional assembly in order to do so.

All of this was declared illegal back in March by Judge Zelaya, but he didn't issue a warrant for the president's arrest.

[Juan Rayo]

The "it was all legal" argument is being used in force of course. The fact is, as I said before, there is no clearly stated way for any one power (congress, justice system or presidency) to null and void the others in Honduras. Keep in mind at the time this happened, there already was a serious fracture between the 3 powers, and a big part of the fault lays on Zelaya's imbecility.

What they SHOULD have done is start a legal procedure against him, put a case together in courts, and THEN see if it merited removing him or not.

Instead, they panicked, called the army in, and AFTER he was taken out they started the court procedures.

Now, keep this in mind guys because it's very important: at this point, a LOT of us aren't on this thing to bring Zelaya back. I myself never was and I could not care less about him. WE ARE however in it because: an army that took us DECADES to get under civilian control (or so we tought) is again the main power broker in the country. Retired officers who have already been found guilty of human rights violations are in positions of power again. The extreme, far fundamentalist right has taken control of key goverment offices NOT BY BEING VOTED IN, which I would hate but endure, but by removing the whole goverment under threat of arms.

People are being detained and put in jail. Granted, except that poor old man they aren't keeping them for more than 1 day, enough to try and scare the living crap outta them. People are being threatened. People are being losing their jobs, accused of "communist behavior". The new "culture ministry" head is a woman who had a tv show in which she explaind how ladies should behave, how they should cross their legs when sitting, how they shoudn't care about an education or job but rather on finding the right husbad. Yeah. You know the new sub-secretary of state, Marta Lorena Casco? for years she has been the leading voice of an organization called "Pro-vida" (pro-life). Sure they are anti-abortion. They also work and receive funds from a US based organization called "samaritan purse" (correct translation? in spanish it is called "bolsa del samaritano" or something like that) which is the same organization sent that wacky letter from "Obama's america in the future" prior to your elections, remember that one? she has also advocated for little kids and little girls to go to different schools because if they go to school together they might get sex ideas in their tiny minds. I kid you not.

I'v had to finally disconnect my phone cause I got tired of the calls in the middle of the night telling me what they want to do to me and my family. I would be playing EVE, get a phone call, listen, tell them "FUCK YOU you cowardly fucker bring it!" and hang up. News lockdown continues and while CNN (that oh so communist, or as they call it "Chavez News Network") is allowed into our tv sets again, almost every single national tv or radio station is under goverment control and spewing the most unbelivable bullshit ("brace for the Venezuelan/Nicaraguan/communist invasion!")

And more, of course. Government is already talking about a "fiscal amnesty". Translation: goverment forgives hundreds of millions of dollars in debt that some powerful private groups have.

Did Zelaya wanted to try and get re-elected? might be. I certainly thougt so and was fighting it. I was all against it because I've worked in human right's fields a long time and I wanted to give our fragile democracy a change. But you can't help democracy with a coup and THEN make up a court case.

My father is a 70 year old writer. He is a national literary award (not sure how to translate it) and winner of some latin american literary awards as well. He writes, and -with much less quality and clarity- so do I. This is what we do, and you should hear the shit they say they want to do to us because of it. Hardly a way to go about it in a democracy. So I had to put my old man in hiding, away from his family, until we are clear on just how safe he actually is or not. While I was in the first demonstration that came to blows with police, I kept receiving text messages in my cel saying "your dad has been detained!!!" (was not true) and I was fucking seeing red. I wanted to kill something. He is a great man and I love him deeply.

I will not see him spend ONE FUCKING NIGHT, one fucking hour or minute in a prison. To be honest they would be crazy to try that one but hell, the fact alone we coudn't be sure speaks about the situation right?

In the meantime, most of us are calling for civilian unrest (again, not sure ifthat is the right translation). Tomorrow we change tactics: we are having a demonstration at the city's central park, musicians, theater, a party. We don't want to give them excuses to shoot us again. Schools are still out as the teacher's organizations are firmly in Zelaya's camp.

The country itself looks normal as hell. I come back home looking tan as a california surfer and start writing. Then I have a drink, or two, then I read Qt3 and I play some Eve and I feel relaxed as hell. We look for normality (sp?) where we can find it.

Just don't believe for a second this was ALL on the legal side of things as that is a blurred mess. Zelaya tried a lot of bullshit. He was actually the first one to publicly mention the possibility of "dissolving congress". He DID NOT DO IT. They did bring the army into it. Big difference.

Edit: Chavez doesn't help btw. I swear every time he opens his mouth he makes it all that much more difficult for us in here. In here all media is framing this as a "honduras vs Chavez" conflict. Not QUITE the case.

Edit: oh btw they finally did trash my bike. Woke up today somwhere around 4am to the sounds, grabbed my baseball bat, went out, found my poor old bike had taken a beating. She still runs, god bless Honda.

Another Edit: past couple days I've really been trying to get into the shoes of those who support the coup. They are a big group of honduran society, dunno if majority, but certainly a big group and they have good reasons. As I've said before, it would be easier if this whole thing had a more clear "bad guy good guy" situation. real life don't work like that I guess. All I can do is go for the litte things, like getting people out of jail, calling bullshit where I see it (the whole "rubber bullets" thing for example) and most of all protecting my family, and hope I'm doing the right thing.

[Tom Chick]

I have no idea what the fuck that is.

Then you're in the wrong thread. Have a look at the post above this one and then go peddle your pedantry elsewhere.

-Tom

[Anti-Bunny]

Then you're in the wrong thread. Have a look at the post above this one and then go peddle your pedantry elsewhere.

-Tom

I love how you just read the first line of posts and then ignore the rest.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Yep. 378. Most of them are just a few sentences long.

I wish Xtien Amanpour Murawski was still doing Qt3 Word of the Day because if "umbrage" didn't make it, "persnickety" is a slam dunk.