Juan,
I was listening to an interview with the Honduran ambassador on NPR yesterday. He said that the Congress had voted/passed a bill prior to the coup, and that the military was removing the president under due process of law. Did such a thing happen?
H.
Yes and no. There is no clear procedure for congress to remove a sitting president in Honduras. Neither for courts. IN any case, they did not present any kind of case before the courts until after the coup had taken place. It would have been the smart thing to do, actually.Originally Posted by Houngan
The whole retroactive approach to integrating the Parliament and the courts into what was likely a purely military decision is extremely troubling and the root of the whole problem (as you are saying). I expect further attempts to rewrite that history as we get closer to the deadline.
It wasn't entirely retroactive, though. The Honduran Congress voted by a wide margin that they didn't think the vote that was supposed to happen was ok. Then the court ruled that it was unconstitutional for the vote to occur, something that the constitution seems to support. And despite that the president was going to go ahead with the vote. So in that sense the military acted after those two branches had already aligned themselves against the president.
Which is not to say that the manner they used to remove the president was right or how the government/military have acted since. That seems to be the issue raised by the OAS, the US, and the UN.
Ready the face palm pictures, guys. Senator Jim DeMint (R) has come out in favor of the Honduras coup:
"The people of Honduras have struggled too long to have their hard-won democracy stolen from them by a Chavez-style dictator. The Honduran Congress, the Honduran Supreme Court, and the Honduran military have acted in accordance to the Honduran constitution and the rule of law.http://demint.senate.gov/public/inde...e-b4e7fbd94fc2“President Obama’s call for the reinstatement of Zelaya is a slap in the face to the people of Honduras. And the resolution written by the Organization of American States tramples over the hopes and dreams of a free and democratic people.
“The rule of law is working in Honduras. President Obama should not undermine the democratic institutions that guarantee freedom by forcing an illegitimate President back into power.
“This is not an ideal transition, but Hondurans are adhering to their constitution. The United States should support the Honduran people and their legitimate leaders in their brave and heroic stand for freedom and the rule of law.”
Fake. A Republican Senator wouldn't know what a constitution is.
Check Snopes on this one.
Okay, if they didn't actually have a vote, and if there wasn't a legal procedure to allow a vote, then the ambassador was lying. The interviewer questioned him a few times to clarify his stance, and it was clearly that, "there was a legal procedure that was followed correctly, then the military was used to remove him per this procedure."
H.
Yeah, pretty much.
Also, there appear to be negotiations under way, very hush shush, government certainly keeping the challenging attitude but I hear they are already looking for a way out that won't end with all of them in jail.
Let's hope this ends soon so I can get back to my normal "bash Zelaya's idiotic meassures" ways.
Edit to better answer Houngan question: Congress voted on a propossal to declare the president "mentally unfit", they created a "comission" to give a recomendation on it (see if he was unfit or not) but they didn't wait for that comission's report to back the coup.
Also, they did vote on the "referendum" that the president wanted to take place last sunday. They (congress) declared it illegal, and so did the courts. Now, you have to keep in mind, by this time, politization and polarizations between the different powers has very high, and what should have been a LEGAL matter started being fully addressed as a political issue, both congress and the courts ignored that said referendum, as Zelaya himself said, was nothing but a poll, with no legal consequences. They panicked (were afraid a huge ammount of people would vote yes on the poll) and went for the coup.
All the accusations off wrongdoing against the president came after the coup.
To take him out, they decided to empower the army. This is an army that has like, 1 general for evey 1k troops. Since forced military conscription (that how you say it?) was declared illegal, and man trust me we fought long and hard for that one, the army has been losing power. It does not surprise me one of the first things they would do into the coup is go back to entering people's houses to catch young men and put them in an uniform.
Btw on that last one today we managed to free 5 kids in the YORO region, way inner country. I am damn proud of this. We worked around the clock to do that, and when I got news they were freed I just collapsed on bed an slept 6 straight hours this afternoon, first time I get so much sleep since the coup. If FELT good. To me, this is a much clearer, and easier to get into issue than fighting to have Zelaya come back or not.
Last edited by Juan Rayo; 07-02-2009 at 09:34 PM.
See this is why I hate not being that good with english, I believe LK is making a very, very sound analysis of the situation and he makes it clear in a couple lines while I scramble to write a lot of words heh. Also, NOBODY here thinks Michelleti, the new president, was the one that made the decision.
There are others out there, but the military certainly were one of the deciding factors./
Sometimes, you have to find peace in the small things because the big picture is impossible to manage. Congratulations, and I wish that I believed in a god that could help you.
Also, I received the following email from my Latin America residing ------
You can imagine the scathing response I returned, mainly hoping that someday one of these big talkers would meet the big consequences of his big words, and then shut the fuck up for good. It's like a Honduran version of the classic "state's rights" argument in favor of the southern position in the Civil War: no, motherfucker, slavery is the end and beginning of the story, now go make sure you can't inbreed more of your stupid kind.HONDURAS ROMPE PARADIGMA EN AMERICA LATINA
La remoción del Presidente José Manuel Zelaya Rosales por parte de las Fuerzas Armadas en la madrugada de ayer domingo 28 de junio, rompe paradigmas de la historia política contemporánea de América Latina. Por primera vez en la era de la post Guerra Fría (desde 1989 hasta la fecha), un ejército depone un Presidente constitucional y democráticamente electo, para restaurar el Estado de Derecho, y no para romper el Estado de Derecho en un país, como era característico de los militares en épocas anteriores.
Este caso no se puede catalogar como un “golpe de Estado”, ya que no cumple con dos rasgos fundamentales de dicho fenómeno político: toma del poder por parte del estamento militar y quebrantamiento del Estado de Derecho. La acción tomada por las Fuerzas Armadas de Honduras fue basada en una orden judicial y su propósito fue restablecer el Imperio de la Ley (rule of law), el cual estaba siendo violentado consistentemente por el propio Presidente del Poder Ejecutivo, al desconocer las disposiciones del Poder Judicial y del Poder Legislativo (checks and balances). Luego de la intervención de las Fuerzas Armadas, la Constitución Política sigue vigente ya que se respetó plenamente la sucesión de poder establecida por la Carta Magna , con lo cual se nombra un nuevo Presidente Constitucional.
Y es que desde el punto de vista de la politología, Honduras sentó ayer un precedente, el cual sin duda pasará a ser un caso de estudio de universidades, diplomáticos y políticos alrededor del mundo.. Por primera vez en Latinoamérica, el pueblo se rebela, sin derramamiento de sangre y sin violencia, contra un Presidente constitucional y democráticamente electo, por violar disposiciones legales y la institucionalidad vigente en el país.
Por eso es que la prensa internacional, los organismos internacionales y gobiernos alrededor del mundo, no han comprendido aún el contexto y la esencia de este caso, y están condenando lo que ha sucedido en Honduras, pues lo están analizando en base a conceptos propios del viejo paradigma de los golpes de Estado durante la época de la Guerra Fría. La comunidad internacional, pública y privada, aún no ha tenido el tiempo, ni los elementos, para percatarse que en Honduras ayer se rompió un modelo y que se trata de un caso completamente sui géneris.
La lección que dio Honduras al mundo ayer es clara: aunque un Presidente haya sido electo democrática y legítimamente, no tiene derecho a desobedecer la Constitución y las leyes de la República. Los pueblos ya no están dispuestos a tolerar ese tipo de abusos de poder de los Presidentes constitucionales, que muchas veces se consideran intocables, por el mismo hecho de haber sido electos por el pueblo. El mensaje de Honduras es simple: el voto popular no incluye una licencia para delinquir, y todo esfuerzo para gobernar por el bien común debe estar dentro del marco de la ley.
Probablemente, tampoco los hondureños se han dado cuenta de la magnitud de lo que hicieron ayer. Con el paso de los días, los meses y años irán asimilando y comprendiendo la dimensión del nuevo paradigma que han sentado, con un rotundo mensaje para propios y extraños sobre lo que le depara a los dictadores constitucionales y a sus aprendices tropicales. El que tenga oídos, que oiga.
Christ, talk about spin doctoring. Sure, fellas, not a coup in the slightest, all nice and legal. They may study this in universities, but not for the reasons you jackasses apparently think.
yeah they've been using that one document a lot in Honduras. It basically goes: the whole world, the UN, the OAS, the US and everyone else they just don't understand you see? we are right and the whole world is wrong.
They neglect to mention that radio and tv stations are still closed down, and the little detail about the martial law of course they don't mention either.
Today's tally is pretty grim. They didn't touch us in Tegucigalpa but as reports come in I can confirm a lot of people jailed in other cities.
So now our work is to get them out of jail. Not good to be jailed with no constitutional rights in place.
They getting desperate.
Edit: since I am a bit drunk and can't sleep atm, THANKS guys for all the kind words. Game forum and all, but it feels good to know other people, far away, are looking at us and are interested in what's happening.
Last edited by Juan Rayo; 07-02-2009 at 11:47 PM.
Sure are, Juan, thanks for keeping us updated and for fighting the good fight! I admire what you and your people are doing. I hope for the best for you.
And here is where the real problem lies. We have enough media so that everyone gets to have an opinion, but we no longer have a trustworthy news source, and worse have obviously biased sources that people can use to insulate themselves from the truth in whatever fashion makes them the most comfortable. After all, if you watch four hours of FoxNews every day, aren't you well-informed?
Luckily I had a Honduran to ask about this, and now I understand what happened better than most of the major news outlets. NPR should be ashamed for going into that interview without knowing what had transpired and what the party line was likely to be.
H.
To be fair, the interviewer did sound rather skeptical. However, for a less discerning listener, or one who didn't already know something about the situation, that skepticism would go unnoticed,
Absolutely, keep fighting the good fight and stay safe. best wishes to you and everyone involved.
She was obviously skeptical, but should have been able to argue the point.
H.
Bear in mind, though, that without your "lot of words", none of us, including LK, would have the insight into the situation that we do.
You're making a difference, man. I'm sure as hell those five boys aren't going to forget it any time soon. Try to stay as safe as you can while doing what you have to, and thanks for keeping us in the loop when you can.
Things continue today with a tense situation as the head of OAS visited the country today (I guess I'll know what he said when it comes out in international media, cause in here, just silence). Massive demonstrations both against and pro the coup in Tegucigalpa.
The pro-coup demonstration was held in the grounds of the presidential palace. Funny, they were surrounded by tanks and police as well, only this time guns were pointing away from the demonstrators.
Print media are saying we had 500 people on our march. I'll link you guys the videos I got yesterday and today to show you just how much bullshit that is.
New chancellor said today, when asked about the US and Obama "blackie boy knows nothing".
Edit: yeah I forgot. 3 bombs went off in different parts of the city last night, all minor explosive charges that caused little to no damage. In my opinion, it's planned by army to justify aprehending people. The term "terrorists" is starting to be used, which is scary as hell.
Last edited by Juan Rayo; 07-03-2009 at 05:14 PM.
Did he actually say "El Negrito"? Hilarious. That aside, keep your head down. Dark nights, these...
You just have to wonder why they would cling so rigidly to what at this point are the most hackneyed cliches of military rule. I don't know shit about stealthily creating a brutal dictatorship, but I'm confident that with a couple of beers and a napkin to draw on I could do better.
Which doesn't, of course, make them any less dangerous. In the absence of ability the military often settles for attrition. Hugo Chavez seems to have attached a lot of his name to this issue, at this point he's the one I'm watching (much as it pains me) to see what kind of response he gins up.
Ahhh welcome to page 2, me.
Unfortunately the bombs could just as easily have be planted by foreigners paid by, say, Hugo Chavez, to cause as much fear uncertainty and doubt as possible and hopefully to goad the military into even more repression and head-banging, with the goal to provoke a popular uprising (or at least the appearance of an uprising) against the 'coup'.
I'm not saying this is what's happening because I have no evidence to point to, but without evidence I can't say that the army is planting bombs, either.
Well, night just took a weird turn.
First of all, I am getting calls from a lot of people telling me Zelaya already landed in Honduras and if so... tomorrow is gonna be a mess of a day.
Second, Honduras goverment just announced they are leaving the organization of american states.... way to go guys, isolate yourselves even more.
Yes, he said "el negrito" reffering to Obama. Kinda weird to have such a stupid chancellor hope I don't have to get used to it hah.
About the bombs... we've had five total now. The first two were "inmediatly" located by army and made to explode safely... with a bunch of tv cameras on them and shown in all channels. The other 3 (last night) followed the same pattern. I would not rule out a third actor trying to create even more confussion, but I definitely suspect our army, as the whole thing looks just as clumsy and stupid as I would expect from them.
also, just read pm. Lizard King that is a great response. Didn't know you spoke spanish so fluently.
SHIT. Sons of bitches. Journalist Gabriel Fino Noriega gunned down, killed as he was leaving radio station.
13 congressmen just came out against the coup. 9 of them in Micheletti's party.
Last edited by Juan Rayo; 07-03-2009 at 11:33 PM.
Quick clarification. By Chancellor, do you mean Canciller?
And if they're killing journalists like that now...
Tankero yeah, that's not the appropiate translation I take it? I mean the guy in charge of international relations, foreign affairs minister maybe?
Last edited by Juan Rayo; 07-03-2009 at 11:37 PM.
Not like that's important now, but the analogue in the United States would be the Secretary of State.
I sound like an asshole now :(
I'm sorry, there's few words of comfort that I can offer. All I can say is that I hope that the confrontation going on ends soon. It looks like, one way or another, both parties are pushing for a conclusion of sorts.
One of the bombs at a KFC Honduras, surely the place that any right thinking democracy demonstrators would go after first as the comments indicate.
About the chancellor (Spanish): he also disparaged the OAS members critiquing the government as insignificant in addition to specifically targeting El Salvador's...size. And some colloquialism about Zelaya getting back in his shoes, which I'm sure is a massive burn.
Finally, the journalist Fino Noriega(Spanish) was shot at least six times by a team of five gunmen, and died on the way to the hospital. The article alludes to some specific reporting he was conducting that is believed to be the trigger for the attack, but there are no specifics and the government's role does not appear to be in question.
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