Reply With QuoteI don't know. I think you turn as many players loose on any game and let them mod the UI and sooner or later you're going to get some good improvements.
Not really.
I don't know. I think you turn as many players loose on any game and let them mod the UI and sooner or later you're going to get some good improvements.
Blizzard's designers would have to be superhumanly clever to come up with something that the entire modding community hasn't thought of yet (and if nobody thought of it, do they really need it?), and modders will be faster to respond to what players want to see, so yeah, it's going to look like Blizzard's stealing from modders no matter what.
And I was certain the two things rogues wanted from druids on page one of this thread were going to be innervate and battle rez. Healing and tanking? Come on now. That's boring.
Instead they get being mathematically unbeatable in PvP as long as they time their cooldowns withing a couple of seconds between the "optimal" time.
Cheap-shot -> kidney shot -> blind -> restealth (vanish if blind is trinketted) -> cheap shot -> kidney shot...
By then, any character except for paladins will be dead. Paladins, if not dead by then, will die if they don't use their bubble to hearth away.
Well there's your problem. You think 1v1 is "PvP". It's not, it's ganking. Ganking generally favors the one who gets the jump, and surprise! rogues are pretty good at that. If I know one is around I will throw on my tank gear and beat him down eventually.
Or 2v2 arenas with a priest on his end and a paladin on mine...Originally Posted by Joe M.
Rogues are the result of a cumulative approach to balancing, where Blizzard keeps building upwards in trying to even everyone out, so they end up creating a monstruous class.
Yeah. Lately I've been heavily playing alts at 71, 63, 60, 25, and at the time two at 16. After getting the 16s up to 20, it felt like a waste of time to press on. If I was in Northrend the 71 wouldn't matter, but I was cleaning up quests in Outland so make use of my flight form and I'd rather be able to fly about three times as fast instead. I did go back to a 36 stalled out and can at least get that one to 40 before I get to the same point. But I'm glad they will be able to all afford their mounts instead of passing down gold from my level 76.
On the other hand, the patch got me playing on the PTR and seeing what old content I can solo with some tricked out level 80s, so that's rather nice.
Edit: One of those 16s was my druid and I almost stopped there, waiting for travel form, but I just couldn't resist and got her up to 22.
Actually, I would love to have a pool of thousands of UI programmers developing for my game, none of whom I have to pay, where I can cherry pick the best of the lot to develop internally and not pay a cent for that, either.
I think trying to copy them and not living up to the original is the embarassing part. The Equipment Manager is practically useless.
Now I haven't played WoW in a very long time (don't even have WotLK) but this is what Rogues have been doing for nearly 5 years now and bitching about it now seems awful strange. Has something significant changed recently?
Not really. Rogues are an easy target to hate because a well-played rogue, especially with backup, can absolutely destroy another player without them having any real chance to fight back.
The problem that a lot of people don't understand is that this is practically the only way for a Rogue to actually compete, since they are probably the squishiest of classes, apart from maybe warlocks (who have plenty of reasons to hate rogues), and one misstep could turn into a disaster for the rogue.
So either the person the rogue is fighting can't do anything, or the rogue gets destroyed? Sounds like a bad design.
The problem right now, with about all classes, but especially rogues due to the tools that they have at their disposal is the incredible amount of burst damage that can be done.
The above cycle wasn't so deadly pre WotLK because it made the rogue choose between CCing someone to killing them. So, he could pin you down for a good ten/fifteen seconds, but he would whittle most classes down to 50/25% of their life. If the rogue had a friend in those days, yes, you were dead if you didn't get loose somehow. Now, the rogue can do it alone.
Edit: Also, yes, I do understand that rogues will get killed if THEY get pinned. However, rogues, and priests as well, have become these franken-classes of reactive design where they're trying to balance them around 1v1 PvP combat, PvE tasks, and up to 5v5 arenas. The end result is a class with so many options that they become juggernauts. Rogues can live through five people attacking them at once with their cooldowns properly used, or selectively pick and kill a single one of them, even through heals.
Last edited by Tankero; 07-06-2009 at 08:29 AM.
Overly snarky comment, removed! Pushing for 2350 again is making me bitter. 2300+ arenas are nothing like even 2k-rated arenas, much less lower, bear this in mind.
1v1: Game's not balanced around it, stop complaining.
Ganking: It's ganking. Get over it. Rogues are good at it.
BGs: Rogues are OK at BGing. Not great, but ok.
2v2: Rogues are very good in 2s, but far from godly. Really, the only blatantly overpowered comp in 2v2 is Resto Druid/DK, which shouldn't lose to any team out there. A good Rogue does a lot of kiting, with Crippling and Gouge, and primarily plays with a Priest, and focuses on negating as much damage as possible while keeping the healer in place for the mana burns. It's a fragile comp, prone to dying if you make a mistake.
3v3: Rogues are good in 3v3, but not as good as they are in 2v2. The prevalence of melee cleave is the downfall of a Rogue; a good melee cleave can just blow up a Rogue within a Charge stun, for cryin' out loud, much less a HoJ. Also, Rogue CC doesn't scale well at all to higher brackets, as Gouge/Kick/Stuns as CC are single-target and on long cooldowns, and Blind is on a very long cooldown and primarily used to force a trinket for other, longer-raged CC.
5v5: Rogues are terrible in 5v5. They just get shat on. Time from engage till death for a Rogue against most 5v5 teams is probably under 20 seconds... my old 5v5 (Holy Paladin, Elemental Shaman, Warrior, Retribution Paladin, Feral Druid) would generally kill a Rogue within one or two globals through Cloak and Evasion.
The only time a Rogue is a franken-class, or a Priest for that matter, is when a team that knows what they're doing goes up against a team that doesn't Because frankly, Priests counter all of one class, and Rogues counter all of one class. Priest/Rogue has good synergy, but there's very few teams that can't beat it, if they play their cards right (and most of them boil down to "Warrior teams and bad-comp double DPS teams").
Last edited by AaronSofaer; 07-06-2009 at 12:15 PM.
Actually, vs a Paladin, it goes like this.
CS -> Kidney -> It got freedom'd -> Rogue HoJ'd -> Rogue trinkets, blinds Pally, vanishes when Pally trinkets blind -> Pally tries to DS Rogue out of stealth.
Best case, Rogue gets away, reopens, CS->full Kidney, Pally's still alive, he repents the Rogue, Holy Light on himself, lays into the Rogue, Rogue probably clos-vanishes to get away, reopens after sapping/bandaging, both of them are full health, pally freedoms the Kidney and HoJ's the Rogue, blows wings, kills him in the HoJ.
A Retadin or Protadin that loses 1v1 to a Rogue when they both have all their cooldowns up is Doing Something Wrong (TM).
2.1k before the Tournament patch opened, but I was playing a feral/rogue combo then. Things either died very quickly with that team. Priest-rogue wasn't a problem for us since we could force the rogue to open if ours opened on the priest and then gib him in a pounce/maim.
Our problem encounters were retadins/DKs with a healer.
Now I play with the same player though on his holy/ret paladin alt. It's much, MUCH harder, but we can beat DK/druid fairly consistently by doing a couple of well-timed CC chains (repentance-cyclone) and hard switches. This while lacking an MS of any sort other than cycloning a target that's low.
Now, priest/rogue are the teams we struggle against because of dispel/mana burn combined with the elevated damage done (the above detailed cycle is getting me down to 10% health, at which point a priest smites/holy-fires to bolster the Dips).
Feral/Rogue was madness. So much damage so fast. Playing Priest/Ret it was a lot less insane than Priest/Rogue, but still, if the Druid and Rogue could get away to restealth after the BoP, it was basically over.
If your Paladin is Repent spec'd, he should have Freedom. You should be getting freedom'd out of every other Kidney. Keep dots on the Rogue at all times and he can't stealth out nearly that easily.Now I play with the same player though on his holy/ret paladin alt. It's much, MUCH harder, but we can beat DK/druid fairly consistently by doing a couple of well-timed CC chains (repentance-cyclone) and hard switches. This while lacking an MS of any sort other than cycloning a target that's low.
If your Paladin is Repent spec'd, he should also have JotW, which should keep his mana pretty damn high even against a Priest going hard on the mana burns. If it's not, you guys need to play the LoS game better. Repent -> HoJ -> 5 second Cyclone the Priest if needed to pull some time to Plea without it being dispelled.
You'd think that, but no. Shielded targets don't yield mana when the judgment he applies gets "absorbed". Also, Plea/Innervate are always, always the first effect dispelled, despite there being a 4/5 buffer of other stuff on him.
So, we'd get into a situation where I'd pounce the priest to get the rogue's attention, shift into bear form to demo roar (doesn't always work), and getting CS'd in bear form (nowhere near as dangerous as in cat). If the paladin is close by, priest would fear, otherwise burn mana by 20% chunks every cast. I'd get freedom'd out of the KP, but in the meantime the rogue has already done 15% of my life in damage while barkskin is up (we're talking about 26k in bear form with 28k armor and 20% damage reduction from barkskin heaped on top of all of that (680res, before you ask)) and I'd start trying to apply bleeds on the rogue. I'm slowed and if I shift into caster for a gdc, I'll get opened on again. So all I can really do is spam cat form to clear crippling poison off of me. That, while trying to jump around behind him to get past the evasion (which goes up as soon as I'm freedom'd). If I'm able to get a 3cp bleed on the rogue before he CoS's off my FF and revanishes to reopen and do the whole cycle again, a single bubble/penance from the priest will cancel out its effects.
Notice that, up until now, the rogue hasn't had to trinket. IF I get a cyclone on him, he uses it on that, dashes, and I'll never get another cast off.
And on and on it goes.
I can burst druid healers down after their barkskin. I can't, for the life of me, do enough damage on a rogue to even get within Ferocious Bite range.
Correct. He should be judging Light on your target, when the target is unshielded (because you burned through it), allowing you to get some trickle heals from hitting things. He should, of course, judge Justice on the Rogue if the Rogue's sprint is off cooldown.
Plea and Innervate are very high on dispel priority. You need to keep the Priest out of his Line of Sight (no easy task!) when he Pleas, or you need to CC (Repent -> 5s Cyclone -> HoJ, if need be) the Priest for the Plea.
The Paladin should be nowhere near enough to fear.So, we'd get into a situation where I'd pounce the priest to get the rogue's attention, shift into bear form to demo roar (doesn't always work), and getting CS'd in bear form (nowhere near as dangerous as in cat). If the paladin is close by, priest would fear,
13%, but yeah, it's powerful.otherwise burn mana by 20% chunks every cast.
I don't know that Barkskin is the right thing to do on the first KS, but the cooldown is pretty low. I'd save it for the second. Nonetheless, yes, you're taking damage and Wound Poison is up and your Pally doesn't have Holy Shock + Infusion of Light. It's rough.I'd get freedom'd out of the KP, but in the meantime the rogue has already done 15% of my life in damage while barkskin is up (we're talking about 26k in bear form with 28k armor and 20% damage reduction from barkskin heaped on top of all of that (680res, before you ask)) and I'd start trying to apply bleeds on the rogue.
At this point your Pally still hasn't done anything but Freedom you out of a KS and LoS mana burns.I'm slowed and if I shift into caster for a gdc, I'll get opened on again. So all I can really do is spam cat form to clear crippling poison off of me. That, while trying to jump around behind him to get past the evasion (which goes up as soon as I'm freedom'd). If I'm able to get a 3cp bleed on the rogue before he CoS's off my FF and revanishes to reopen and do the whole cycle again, a single bubble/penance from the priest will cancel out its effects.
Repent the Priest off the bat, HoJ the Rogue or even save it for the Priest and go for a roots proc (Nature's Grasp, I think?) on the Rogue to cyclone. Never, of course, cyclone in melee range.
I agree. It's a powerful comp. It doesn't help that your comp landed a decent chunk of nerfs because people were weeping giant tears of blood over DK/Paladin (which wasn't half as bad as DK/Druid is now). All the same, there's stuff you can do. A fight against Priest/Rogue relies on CC and control, and while they have a lot of tools for that, so do you.Notice that, up until now, the rogue hasn't had to trinket. IF I get a cyclone on him, he uses it on that, dashes, and I'll never get another cast off.
And on and on it goes.
I can burst druid healers down after their barkskin. I can't, for the life of me, do enough damage on a rogue to even get within Ferocious Bite range.
Also, bear in mind that you can kill a Priest in the duration of an HoJ with a Repent on the Rogue, very easily, if your cooldowns are up. Berserk + TF shreds on a Priest ... ye Gods, I've had Druids literally 3shot me, without even having bleeds up. This is, mind you, with 1018 resilience.
I don't think I have the gear for this, and I'd like to see the trinkets/procs the druid had running when he 3-shot you without bleeds (we have a talent that adds 20% damage to shred on bleeding targets, even if its not our own bleeds at that).
I'm running on mostly deadly gear (7k AP/44% crit, yadda) and while I CAN pretty much blender the priest if all of his cooldowns are gone as well, to get to the point that:
1. The priest is caught in the HoJ without his trinket.
2. The rogue is caught in a repentance without -his- trinket.
3. The HoJ lands on the priest and the repentance on the rogue (other way around and the repentance will get dispelled).
4. TF/Zerker are both up.
5. Pain Suppression is down...
Well, by then we've outplayed this team 5 times over.
I should note that after barely reaching 1800 with over 600 games played (1.1:1 W/L) I'm ready to give up on the comp. I can say, sincerely if not inmodestly, that both me and my partner are damned good players. Not freaks, not geniuses, but damned good. And that's not good enough. We can't get the job done.
Patch is going up today. Goddammit, I'm going to level another alt, aren't I?
I've been holding off leveling a druid until now, but now I'll finally be able to pick up an heirloom for her.
I have 3 alts right around 20-ish, all ready for mounts. Sigh.
It does make me curious if blizzard is actually going to make death knight dual wielding viable again after purposefully making it useless. Not curious enough to resub mind you, but curious.
Athryn: druids are the best class ever. Seriously. They're so amazing. Switched my main to my druid for WotLK and never regretted it.
I hope you have the 3 gold saved up to buy the mounts!
My druid is sitting at 60 and I haven't touched her in months. I haven't even bothered to spend her talent point refund that came in whenever.
These days I'm all about my 76 Warlock and her drive to 80.
Lots of good stuff in this patch :)
I'm very glad I held off on buying riding skills for my Druid, who just recently hit 77. He only has the first Riding skill... I'm saving much gold. Which is important, given that he's on Horde-side Mal'Ganis and my mains are on Alliance-side Kel'Thuzad, ahaha.
Some of the changes look interesting. The Ret changes make me sad... I'm going to have to find a new 2v2 partner now. Probably a Rogue...
So you are still going to do 2v2 even though they restricted the gear you can get from it? I'm just curious what PvPers think of that change. I've never stepped into an arena.
This Season is not yet over. In S7, I'll probably not even touch the 2v2 bracket, since I prefer 3v3 / 5v5. But for now, you can still get all the gear via 2v2, and I want my T2 Furious weapon.
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